Settle A Debate: Meta

rhythmsuji · June 3

This should be interesting lol.

Okay so to my knowledge, across many games or even outside of games. "meta" has a very broad and varied applicable use as a term. Essentially multiple definitions really.

In one way, using a "meta build" would be quite literally the community decided best build or one of few best builds for the selected role. Races, classes, builds etc you might see on a tier list.

In another way, "playing by the meta" could pertain to having proper stats, certain buffs, certain mechanics etc. Like using crit resistance in PvP or learning to weave in PvE, or bringing expected buffs to a trial run that your role would generally be expected to supply. Meta tactics in summation.

Then there is meta gaming, tactically anticipating game play based on the community norms and using it against an enemy. "I meta gamed him and did this play instead, because I knew he would predictably follow the meta tactics"

Not the primary use in games, but mentioning anyway since it can technically be used in story games. But no where near the first thing that comes to mind. "That story was too meta, it essentially eradicated the 4th wall"

Is this a fair assessment of the various ways meta can be used commonly in games? Or would you specifically assign it only one of these definitions, or a different one I did not mention?

Does an "off meta build" in ESO mean that it doesn't follow the commonly expected rules for a build of the characters role? Or does it only mean it's not the #1 build for that role?

I ask because in ESO specifically, I have seen a lot more disagreement on the term than in other games. And I am wondering if the commonality of it's usage in ESO is more specific and singular than in gaming in general as ive run into these disagreements often enough.

Gabriel_H · June 3

rhythmsuji wrote: »

Does an "off meta build" in ESO mean that it doesn't follow the commonly expected rules for a build of the characters role? Or does it only mean it's not the #1 build for that role?

It means not content creator recommended. That doesn't necessarily mean it is not the best build for you.

The meta is a spreadsheet calculation. For DDs it's the maximum damage potential. For tanks and healers it's whatever provides the most group buffs - as there is this ridiculous notion that buffing is their primary role.

That potential does not necessarily translate into performance. Performance comes down to efficiency, and efficiency comes down to the player. A player not engaged with a build, not enjoying the build, or simply not gelling with it will be inefficient. My argument will always be to let them play a build they do enjoy, that has a lower maximum potential, but could have a higher efficiency and see the difference. A lot of raid leaders (too many) won't even entertain that notion because it isn't "META" - all hail the all powerful meta!

Edit: Typos

Soarora · June 3

My understanding is off-meta is anything that isn't within a respected window of what top theorycrafters have worked out to be the best for the average endgamer. Like, I don't think running deadly/ansuul on a stam beam arc when the meta is tideborn/null arca would be considered off-meta. Running a mag beam arcanist would be, as would running siroria. For another example, in my opinion, a frost warden dps would be off-meta and running a frost warden dps with a build that doesn't match the top parses would be an off-off-meta build. I guess, like there's Broadway, off-Broadway, and off-off-Broadway haha.

BretonMage · June 3

Meta's just a word, and can have different contexts. I guess the original meaning was, if you look at dictionaries, "transformational" or "beyond the limit", so probably used in gaming to mean beyond what was intended story-wise or gameplay-wise by the developers. I've seen people talking about metagaming in RPGs when you do something based on knowledge your character wouldn't have. Then I suppose came the use of meta to designate the best build as determined by the community.

Why would there be disagreement on the term? There is the broad definition of the word, that has evolved through use to mean specific things in different contexts, but they're all related by that broad definition. I don't play other MMOs so I don't know what disagreements there may be.

Sluggy · June 3

Traditionally, in any game I'd ever played 'meta' specifically referred to that third one. "The game before the game", or "The game outside the game". It's about understanding popular choices and deliberately choosing a strategy based on that knowledge. Regardless of if it leans into those popular choices or tries to counter them. In other words, it's more like a verb, and not a noun.

For some reason, a lot of games all suddenly started referring to "popular choices" as the term "meta", itself. ESO was one of the first major examples I noticed of this phenomenon but I don't know that it was actually the first.

On a related note, the use of the word "parse" in this game has always been a pet peeve of mine. My guess is that it's because CMX contains the word parse on one of its screens and people that didn't know what it means just started using it to refer to the process of measuring their DPS. Or sometimes even a replacement for the acronym DPS, altogether.

MRAW · June 3

Gabriel_H wrote: »

My argument will always be to let them play a build they do enjoy, that has a lower maximum potential, but could have a higher efficiency and see the difference. A lot of raid leaders (too many) won't even entertain that notion because it isn't "META" - all hail the all powerful meta!

Been there, seen that. This way you will end up with a tank wearing leeching plate and ebon armor, DD all OakenSorcs or Jabbing Templars, mothers sorrow and Julianos sets and healers with Winters Respite plus Rkumgamz. In 2026.

A lot of ppl are too lazy to farm sets or to change their build to a current meta and hope to be carried by the meta players anyways

Gabriel_H · June 3

MRAW wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

My argument will always be to let them play a build they do enjoy, that has a lower maximum potential, but could have a higher efficiency and see the difference. A lot of raid leaders (too many) won't even entertain that notion because it isn't "META" - all hail the all powerful meta!

Been there, seen that. This way you will end up with a tank wearing leeching plate and ebon armor, DD all OakenSorcs or Jabbing Templars, mothers sorrow and Julianos sets and healers with Winters Respite plus Rkumgamz. In 2026.

A lot of ppl are too lazy to farm sets or to change their build to a current meta and hope to be carried by the meta players anyways

No. You're going to an extreme example, which is the mindset I'm referring too. An example:

For tanks there are two types of fight: Sustain and Mitigation, and a mix of the two with many sub-variants, be it DoT intensive, or AoE intensive, forced reduction of resources, or just a long fight. So lets say you have a tank in PW. That's an extra ~2.5% dps, good for a long fight, it's going to reduce the length of the fight, that benefits the tank in terms of resource management. But in a forced reduction fight your tank is going to struggle, they are going to be lacking the resources needed to effectively tank. A quicker fight, more dps, doesn't solve that problem, swapping out for a set that helps with sustain does.

Rohamad_Ali · June 3

most efficient tactic available can mean lots of this because of the "available" part.

Renato90085 · June 3

most endgamer dps race is dark mer,90% player run herald of the tome and assassination ,and dobody play nb/warden/sorc have it reason
this log is my solo tank vka pug 20 min before
and there only 2 player is meta build,some few player run heal skill or wrong skill so dps lower

but not mean non-meta build can't work ,you still can group a 8-10 oaken team and spend 50 min clean vka too,just meta is best in all content and tank/healer will feel pain

LunaFlora · June 3

most effective tactic available.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meta
when it used for talking about combat

MRAW · June 3

Gabriel_H wrote: »

No. You're going to an extreme example, which is the mindset I'm referring too.

I am not. I could also show you the ESO Logs from my trading guild that would once a week try a vet trial.
It looks much like Renato's example. 1-3 beam arcanists with meta setups that need to carry 5-7 people that "play as they like to".
They have tried vLC like 20 times and vDSR 20 times, most they managed to do in 2 hours each was the first boss. They have never and will never finish these trials.

Edit:
It’s not like “2.5% for PW”, those guys do like 18k dps while meta build players do 50k dps

spartaxoxo · June 3

The difference uses you're talking about are different subject or genres as well.

As you noted, meta gaming is more of a strategy or tcg thing.

When they talk about lore, meta may to things outside of the work itself. A good example would be the Heart's Day quest where you helped a guild that talked and acted more like a player guild than an in-universe one. The devs were being meta.

There's also meta analysis, where data or lore may be examined across multiple independent instances or time, although this is seldom used by the community.

When people are talking about builds or content, a meta build will be the community determined most efficient play styles. An off-meta build will generally be a build that isn't one of those. But, this does not mean the build is bad.

Meta has multiple definitions and what's being said should be gleaned by context. For the sake of good faith debate, simply assume the most charitable and/or reasonable use of the term within the context of it being stated rather than worry if they are using it wrong or not. I'm not saying you're doing that, just giving a good approach to words that have multiple meanings depending on context.

See also casual and vet. In this game's community, it could refer to type of content or experience level of the player. Some even mean skill level. Which is meant depends on context.

Gabriel_H · June 3

MRAW wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

No. You're going to an extreme example, which is the mindset I'm referring too.

I am not. I could also show you the ESO Logs from my trading guild that would once a week try a vet trial.
It looks much like Renato's example. 1-3 beam arcanists with meta setups that need to carry 5-7 people that "play as they like to".
They have tried vLC like 20 times and vDSR 20 times, most they managed to do in 2 hours each was the first boss. They have never and will never finish these trials.

Edit:
It’s not like “2.5% for PW”, those guys do like 18k dps while meta build players do 50k dps

I fear you are missing the point by a wide margin. Lets talk about that example. You seem to think that is shows 3 people were carrying the other 5 DDs?

The other 5 DDs, are averaging around 67k dps. Admittedly there is one, what I would say is low dps but still a 67k dps average non the less.

Here's the dps from a vKA HM run I did recently:

The average dps is 77k. So about 10k higher. Adjusting for that difference, i.e. if the dps had been 10k lower in my run it would have taken ~13% longer. Lets call it 15% longer just to handicap it a bit more. That would have turned a 24 minute and 17 second run into a 28 minute run - being 7 minutes inside the trifecta time. How is that a carry?

frogthroat · June 3

The way meta is used goes beyond the original Greek meaning. In D&D it is generally frowned upon, as you bring knowledge outside of the game world into the game world. But in video games, the backronym "Most Effective Tactic Available" is actually a pretty good description.

You check the stats, calculate which options might give the most of what you are looking for, then test it. Some work on a dummy, and become the meta for dummy parses - like Highland Sentinel. Well, nowadays it also works in content, kinda. But others become meta in content, like Coral Riptide used to be and Null Arca currently is, because they give the most bang for your buck.

If you use something else than the most effective tactic available, that is off-meta. Coral Riptide used to be meta, but the changes in the set, changes in recovery, and the availability of new sets made it not the best anymore. So if you would don Coral Riptide now, that would be off-meta. It is not the strongest at the moment. Off-meta doesn't mean useless. It just means it is not the most (potentially) effective at the moment.

Of course there is variation, depending on who is playing. Someone who has all trial trifectas on their belt can probably parse more with an off-meta build than I can with a meta build, so meta is not the be-all and end-all. And this hypothetical parse master could, potentially, parse even higher with a meta build but even then their experience matters. When DK changes came, in our prog group, we all of a sudden had both arca beams and pure DKs competing for the highest dps. Yet there was this one guy using his trusty old Warden, outparsing most. Of those 8 DDs he was always in top 3. So knowing your chosen class and (undestroyed) sets can lead to meta results while being off-meta.

Pinktraining · June 3

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MRAW wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

No. You're going to an extreme example, which is the mindset I'm referring too.

I am not. I could also show you the ESO Logs from my trading guild that would once a week try a vet trial.
It looks much like Renato's example. 1-3 beam arcanists with meta setups that need to carry 5-7 people that "play as they like to".
They have tried vLC like 20 times and vDSR 20 times, most they managed to do in 2 hours each was the first boss. They have never and will never finish these trials.

Edit:
It’s not like “2.5% for PW”, those guys do like 18k dps while meta build players do 50k dps

I fear you are missing the point by a wide margin. Lets talk about that example. You seem to think that is shows 3 people were carrying the other 5 DDs?

The other 5 DDs, are averaging around 67k dps. Admittedly there is one, what I would say is low dps but still a 67k dps average non the less.

Here's the dps from a vKA HM run I did recently:

The average dps is 77k. So about 10k higher. Adjusting for that difference, i.e. if the dps had been 10k lower in my run it would have taken ~13% longer. Lets call it 15% longer just to handicap it a bit more. That would have turned a 24 minute and 17 second run into a 28 minute run - being 7 minutes inside the trifecta time. How is that a carry?

vKA Hard Mode isn't a very difficult trial. Try VLC Hard Mode; for every 20-second delay, the raid will suffer an extra Xoryn's lightning strike.
Delayed by more than a minute? Good luck.

Lord_Hev · June 3

MRAW wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

No. You're going to an extreme example, which is the mindset I'm referring too.

I am not. I could also show you the ESO Logs from my trading guild that would once a week try a vet trial.
It looks much like Renato's example. 1-3 beam arcanists with meta setups that need to carry 5-7 people that "play as they like to".
They have tried vLC like 20 times and vDSR 20 times, most they managed to do in 2 hours each was the first boss. They have never and will never finish these trials.

Edit:
It’s not like “2.5% for PW”, those guys do like 18k dps while meta build players do 50k dps

Your anecdotal example has nothing to do with meta. Those 5 18k casual dpsers do not parse. It doesn't matter what build you put them in.

Meanwhile I regularly outparse even current subclass meta builds in my "off-meta" pureclass builds to this day, simply because I have like several times their experience level in said content. Granted my off-meta usage is still "optimized" as much as I can go with it. Aka, my builds are still logical and fulfill a statistical checkmark a dps should be fulfilling regardless of their gear. So in that sense, I'm still "meta-ing." Your example, points at the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. When experience and content familiarity are streamlined, then those meta builds will start to outpace my specs, but it's still in this sort of range as described above:

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MRAW · June 3

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Your anecdotal example has nothing to do with meta. Those 5 18k casual dpsers do not parse. It doesn't matter what build you put them in.

Not true. I did actually talk to two of these players and suggested them to play an arcanist beam build (like Velothi deadly Ansuul/ velothi tideborn null arca) and voila, they also had 50k dps instead of 18k.

Gabriel_H · June 3

Pinktraining wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MRAW wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

No. You're going to an extreme example, which is the mindset I'm referring too.

I am not. I could also show you the ESO Logs from my trading guild that would once a week try a vet trial.
It looks much like Renato's example. 1-3 beam arcanists with meta setups that need to carry 5-7 people that "play as they like to".
They have tried vLC like 20 times and vDSR 20 times, most they managed to do in 2 hours each was the first boss. They have never and will never finish these trials.

Edit:
It’s not like “2.5% for PW”, those guys do like 18k dps while meta build players do 50k dps

I fear you are missing the point by a wide margin. Lets talk about that example. You seem to think that is shows 3 people were carrying the other 5 DDs?

The other 5 DDs, are averaging around 67k dps. Admittedly there is one, what I would say is low dps but still a 67k dps average non the less.

Here's the dps from a vKA HM run I did recently:

The average dps is 77k. So about 10k higher. Adjusting for that difference, i.e. if the dps had been 10k lower in my run it would have taken ~13% longer. Lets call it 15% longer just to handicap it a bit more. That would have turned a 24 minute and 17 second run into a 28 minute run - being 7 minutes inside the trifecta time. How is that a carry?

vKA Hard Mode isn't a very difficult trial. Try VLC Hard Mode; for every 20-second delay, the raid will suffer an extra Xoryn's lightning strike.
Delayed by more than a minute? Good luck.

That's nice, but the discussion was about how someone thinks dps doing over 50k and less than 100k in a vKA, that only needs 50k dps to get the trifecta is a carry.

MSattrtand · June 3

Meta is the state of the game. Nothing more, nothing less. The meta builds are the ones the players are using. It's irrelevant if those builds are effective or not - people actually use them. My understanding of the meta comes from a few years of playing Hearthstone, so I'll explain my thoughts using the game as an example.

Every week, people were publishing meta-reports. Those weren't just saying "This is the most effective deck available". They described and analysed all popular decks at the high end of the ladder, their popularity, winrate against other decks, ease of play and why these parameters have changed since last week. Then they ranked all decks by tiers. And there were still decks that were in lower tiers, because not everyone plays optimally. These meta-reports weren't prescribing what you should use - they were describing how people play, because that's what a meta is.

Do we have something similar in ESO? Well, Geldis and Yokomori were making class (and later skill lines) popularity charts in later trial HMs. The data was collected from public logs, so it reflects what classes/skill lines endgame raiders actually use. And yes, sometimes they are playing suboptimally - in the U47 dataset, there were 3 logs where the healer had a Draconic Power, which is definitely suboptimal. Or Hyper's dungeon testing spreadsheet, where he was queuing for random veteran dungeons and recording the data, to analyse later what sets people use, what their average DPS is, and if it correlates with their playstyle.

All those "meta-reports" were not prescribing anything - they were describing how people play the game, regardless of whether it's optimal or not. Because that's what a meta is. If people do not understand its proper meaning and try to substitute concepts, well, that's a problem

Therefore, the off-meta build is the build that people are not using. It doesn't matter why. A trash build with Burning Spell Weave+Bahsei is fine, despite it being off-meta, because it follows basic principles of how trash builds should work. Null Arca+Relequen is also an off-meta trash build, but it's awful, despite it being an okayish setup for bosses, because it doesn't follow the principles.

The problem is that a lot of ESO players have zero clue about the build crafting principles, so they can't theorycraft their own off-meta build that would actually work. And, unfortunately, some Content Creators too, otherwise we wouldn't have Bahrahas+Leeching builds for DDs. An average ESO player can't even make a small change in a build - I regularly see questions like "I like this build, but I want to use 2H frontbar. What should I do?", when the answer is "If you want to change your frontbar weapon to 2H, you should... change your frontbar weapon to 2H. That's it".

Renato90085 · June 3

MRAW wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

No. You're going to an extreme example, which is the mindset I'm referring too.

I am not. I could also show you the ESO Logs from my trading guild that would once a week try a vet trial.
It looks much like Renato's example. 1-3 beam arcanists with meta setups that need to carry 5-7 people that "play as they like to".
They have tried vLC like 20 times and vDSR 20 times, most they managed to do in 2 hours each was the first boss. They have never and will never finish these trials.

Edit:
It’s not like “2.5% for PW”, those guys do like 18k dps while meta build players do 50k dps

this is a different question,the play as they like player most don't know how to build or don't know content,i think compare meta should Ignoring the skill gap between players,beucase if today i give my 12 year old cousin play my build,he maybe only can hit 40-80k
you need compare the highest and med players in same pull,because how much damage you can deal depends on how good your support is.
like necro is top2 dps, his gear is meta(arca/necro class set) but the skill line and morph not meta,other player have same problem,mabe gear/exp or cp wrong other 2 meta build run some wrong morph too
this is my last month vka hm pug run

i am the pure nb deal 135k and meta subclass nb hit 177k
so my build not meta?yes,it not since U46
it still can work at old easy content like vka/vss/vdsr trifecta,yes
but it is objectively worse and more difficult.

GloatingSwine · June 3

LunaFlora wrote: »

most effective tactic available.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meta
when it used for talking about combat

This understanding of "meta" falls down when you realise that sometimes the meta is comprised of everyone doing it wrong together. It's not the most effective tactic available, sometimes it's actually a really bad tactic it's just the one everyone is doing.

The "meta" in a game is the generally accepted set of practices that form instrumental play. It is what everyone has agreed is the best thing to do, not necessarily the actual best thing to do.

See the video every MMO player should be sat down and made to watch for more information about instrumental play.

wolfie1.0. · June 3

Meta is the failed name change that Facebook tried to make.

rhythmsuji · June 3

BretonMage wrote: »

Meta's just a word, and can have different contexts. I guess the original meaning was, if you look at dictionaries, "transformational" or "beyond the limit", so probably used in gaming to mean beyond what was intended story-wise or gameplay-wise by the developers. I've seen people talking about metagaming in RPGs when you do something based on knowledge your character wouldn't have. Then I suppose came the use of meta to designate the best build as determined by the community.

Why would there be disagreement on the term? There is the broad definition of the word, that has evolved through use to mean specific things in different contexts, but they're all related by that broad definition. I don't play other MMOs so I don't know what disagreements there may be.

I agree there shouldn't be a disagreement, but ive had it, am currently having and and have seen it a lot but only in ESO has this happened. So I wanted to pick the brains of the community haha.

Someone claiming that "the meta" does not include a build which lacks buffs the community has determined that build/roles job to bring to a dungeon or raid. But to me, that is one of the most clear examples of the word. And I think its because "meta" has become somewhat of a dirty word for many, so they don't want it used or applying even when it does and should be fine to use. Sometimes meta is provably good, like when a raid group uses a "meta setup" or "meta tactics" during a trial, it's typically because over many years so much trial and error has occurred that the community has defaulted to it being the most ideal way to enter or tackle the situation.

Lets say a group was running a trial, and a tank is expected to bring in a number of buffs or debuffs for the fights due to this formation of the meta. And then does not, I can see people not wanting that tank for not following cultivated the meta. Even if they fit other descriptors of a tank in any videogame, holding agro and taking damage.

rhythmsuji · June 3

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Meta has multiple definitions and what's being said should be gleaned by context. For the sake of good faith debate, simply assume the most charitable and/or reasonable use of the term within the context of it being stated rather than worry if they are using it wrong or not. I'm not saying you're doing that, just giving a good approach to words that have multiple meanings depending on context.

See also casual and vet. In this game's community, it could refer to type of content or experience level of the player. Some even mean skill level. Which is meant depends on context.

Unfortunately, it's the opposite and this question to the community is just making sure I wasn't crazy. I agree fully.

I was using it in the context of a build not having the "expected" buffs for the role it was filling in ESO. And they are expected because of the cultivated meta over years in determining what is most efficient and beneficial for that role to provide and have been continually demanded I am failing to use the word right because to them the word only pertains to the few "top builds".

rhythmsuji · June 3

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Meta is the failed name change that Facebook tried to make.

lmao nice xD

DoofusMax · June 3

rhythmsuji wrote: »

In one way, using a "meta build" would be quite literally the community decided best build or one of few best builds for the selected role. Races, classes, builds etc you might see on a tier list.

This is the more common usage, I think. When I use the term "meta" in the context of ESO, that's pretty close to what I mean. It can also mean "fully optimized". The meta is the community wisdom (usually tested by repeated parses on training dummies) about which combinations produce maximum output over time.

rhythmsuji wrote: »

Not the primary use in games, but mentioning anyway since it can technically be used in story games. But no where near the first thing that comes to mind. "That story was too meta, it essentially eradicated the 4th wall"

Also used, but this form does not take an article. Something in this usage can "be meta", but this is different from "the meta". The latter usage commonly takes an article.

rhythmsuji wrote: »

Does an "off meta build" in ESO mean that it doesn't follow the commonly expected rules for a build of the characters role? Or does it only mean it's not the #1 build for that role?

"Off-meta" mostly seems to mean "not social-media approved," whether that social media be game forums, Discord, Reddit, YouTube, or whatever. My description of my characters as being "off meta" or "meta only by accident" means that I did not follow anyone's build guide in deciding how to set them up. There are a few community-wisdom "rules" that I tend to follow (like all attribute points into one resource absent a compelling reason to do otherwise), but the combination of gear and abilities for each character is something that I decided on. If that happens to match up with a build guide somewhere, it is completely coincidental.

Frayton · June 3

Meta is what's optimized overall, and it isn't someone's opinion. It's based on hard math and actual performance stats.

Off meta is what isn't fully optimized. It might or might not get the job done. An example would be naked trials or using a build meant for different content. It can work, but it's not the most optimized way to do it.

Gabriel_H · June 3

Frayton wrote: »

Meta is what's optimized overall, and it isn't someone's opinion. It's based on hard math and actual performance stats.

Performance is the result of player action. The meta is the maximum damage potential. That does not always translate into highest damage possible by a player in content.

StihlReign · June 3

Playing the meta: Using current community favored, specific overpowered weapons, builds or strategies to win, rather than playing casually or experimenting.

Template. Easy win build.

Traditionally - It's almost always meant overpowered least effort easiest win build.

virtus753 · 12:05AM

GloatingSwine wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

most effective tactic available.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meta
when it used for talking about combat

This understanding of "meta" falls down when you realise that sometimes the meta is comprised of everyone doing it wrong together. It's not the most effective tactic available, sometimes it's actually a really bad tactic it's just the one everyone is doing.

The "meta" in a game is the generally accepted set of practices that form instrumental play. It is what everyone has agreed is the best thing to do, not necessarily the actual best thing to do.

See the video every MMO player should be sat down and made to watch for more information about instrumental play.

The acronym is an awkward backformation for the specific application of "meta" in gaming, which is why it's so restrictive and doesn't suit most uses even in gaming, much less more broadly.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · 3:00AM

They need to establish a dps cap to go along with armor cap, crit cap, pen caps, ect. And eliminate dps meta. Suddenly, every set in the game might become useful. Suddenly, the mythics aren't out of control. And wouldn't have to be on every build. Suddenly people will stop being punished for playing how they want to. And so many more things.