SUPRISE ! People dont like VENGEANCE

Jeremy · May 26

The problem is that "portion of the community that is happy to have broken and exploitable items" dominate PvP and run everyone else off. So they end up becoming the majority by default. The old adage "if you can't beat them, join them" is very applicable here. So even players who may not be happy with broken and exploitable items end up using them anyway to remain competitive.

Though honestly think the real problem with PvP on this game is (and always has been) this craving for DPS and the belief no one should be able to create a build that can actually live. Every time a successful defensive build emerges on this game that can actually stay alive the amount of.... and I'll be diplomatic and say protesting that occurs is insane and ultimately always ends with ZoS deleting the build from the game.

Until this cycle ends and ZoS stops catering to that segment of the PvP population this game's PvP is going to remain a niche activity avoided by the vast amount of players. I remember back when this game's PvP was popular and fun, and it was solely due to the fact that DPS did not dominate all and players could actually defend themselves. You take that option away, and this is what you end up with.

aetherix8 · May 26

Cooperharley wrote: »

I don’t think “people don’t like Vengeance” is universally true, but I do think the reaction shows a real problem: Vengeance and Grey Host are serving very different audiences.

Vengeance can be useful as an entry-level or lower-friction PvP mode. I understand why some players like being able to jump in without farming sets, copying builds, or getting deleted by optimized groups. That part has value, especially for newer or more casual PvPers.

But it should not be treated as a replacement for Grey Host or as proof that regular Cyrodiil cannot be improved. A lot of veteran PvP players are not rejecting change just because it is change. They are rejecting a mode that removes too much of what makes ESO PvP feel like ESO: buildcraft, gear choices, class identity, CP, counters, and long-term character investment.

The right path, in my opinion, is:

Keep Vengeance as an optional campaign for players who want that style.
Keep Grey Host as the main traditional Cyrodiil experience.
Stop removing or sidelining Grey Host during tests.
Use real population, retention, queue, and platform-specific data before calling Vengeance a success or failure.
Continue working on Grey Host issues like performance, heal/shield stacking, proc balance, faction imbalance, and ball group counterplay.
If Vengeance lives alongside Grey Host, great. More options are good. But if Vengeance becomes the answer to every Cyrodiil complaint, then it is going to keep frustrating the exact players who have stuck with ESO PvP for years.

ZOS should not frame this as “Vengeance or nothing.” The better answer is Vengeance for the players who enjoy that format, and meaningful Grey Host improvements for the players who still want traditional ESO PvP.

General remark, and not a direct answer to your post, Cooperharley: while reading this thread and others that are related, I notice a significant lack of clarity in most posts.

Players talk about fixing Cyrodiil, but their discourse is vague, to put it gently.

Fix what exactly? It is important to express one's ideas as precisely as possible if any tangible results are to be obtained.

My take on the "fixing Grey Host" question is as follows, and is based on this thread's OP https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1

Gray Host performance cannot be fixed, and the devs won't be pursuing this goal anymore.

Gray Host balance can be fixed , as it isn't at all said otherwise. More than that, ZOS recently adjusted how HoT stacking works in Cyrodiil, which proves that the devs are still committed to improving the balance.

I believe it is very worthwhile to keep pushing for balance adjustments, while specifying the 'balance' part of the equation. Performance appears to be a lost cause.

Edit emphasis

barney2525 · May 26

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

You are not the majority so please do not represent yourself as such.

Not everything is for everybody so I'm sure you are dissappointed you must be without GH for a time. I'd like a pvp ro;; back to Elsewyr but we all know that isn't happening, so we will have to work with what we have. GH will be back in it cheesy, meta bustedness soon enough

You are the minority. So please do not represent yourself as the majority.

The vast majority of the PvP community will not play vengeance under any circumstances. We will leave the game before playing vengeance again.

We've put in our time and treasure to be able to play GH. Maybe next time they run vengeance they should remove all PvE zones from the game so people like you would have some experience with being treated the same way the PvP community gets treated during vengeance....the perfect name for what ZOS is doing to the PvP community.

I think this is actually a big part of the problem. Legacy PVPers like yourself see themselves as some golden commodity that ZoS needs to hold on to. They really don't.

MMOs that are on a maintenance lifecycle are held together by new players. New players dont join Grey Host because of the knowledge and skill gap. Vengeance addresses this. You leaving is not a problem for ZoS, they have already gotten plenty of dollars out of you, your Lifetime Value (LTV) as a client is almost completely dried up.

On the other hand, if they can get a new player to lock in for a year, there are thousands of dollars of potential in cosmetics etc that they have never unlocked, but you have. The lifeblood of an MMO is its new players, and Grey Host is completely unfriendly to new players. Vengeance is. It's a simple equation.

Regardless of what you may 'feel' - Vengeance is the right business decision and it is actually fun and accessible (as someone who runs a 500 person guild who is largely casuals, we LOVE vengeance).

You can see this trend in all MMOs, and even in what else ZoS is doing (Solo Dungeons, Making Companions more Appetizing (heart week, xp floor drops), etc. All of these things are trending toward making the game easier and more accessible with optional difficulty (e.g. overland sliders).

wow.

COMPLETELY Disagree. Your business produces a specific product. The more the buyer uses the Product, the more options they find use for the product. The more they like it, the more they buy it.

The Company NEVER says " That's it. We are completely stopping production of Product A. Instead, the ONLY thing we offer is Product T. "

That is NOT a Smart business model.

People have been playing PvP for Years. (and personally I am NOT one of them. I do BGs for achievements and that's it) They have put in hundreds of hours EARNING the gear and skills needed to be very successful. To have all that hard work Wiped out and literally Thrown away By the Company, is a Terrible Business decision.

You can't Stop offering a Product that has been reasonably successful for years. You figure out Objectively what the flaws are and you Adjust the Main product. It's OK to ADD something New, but you do Not End your Main product. People's MONEY comes from their Loyalty to the Product. When the Company is Not Loyal to the Buyer, the Buyer Leaves.

And it's real Easy for people who have No stake in the Company to say " Fine, Leave. It's no big deal ".

BXR_Lonestar · May 26

LadyGP wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

You absolutely can because their alternate content is pve, below 50, ravenwatch, and BR.

the only reason you have less veterans there is that its less active.

that and because its not locked out which is also a part of the whole casual campaign thing, if you're wanting an easier time, log into the faction that is zerging the most. Thats exactly what they did in vengeance the last time, literally no difference.

Respectfully Zos, I refuse to play any pvp camp that isn't locked. We already have enough trolls/griefers in locked camps as it is (friends of other factions, proven alt accounts - against ToS by the way but whatever -) the last thing we need is a main camp that isn't locked.

Oh DC is trying to take this scroll... let me log into my alt really quick (theres no queue in vengence)... picks up scroll.. RP walks it until it times out and resets.

This is just a small fraction of the stupid griefing stuff that is already happening in GH that will just get 10x in Veng.

This reason alone, not even including how vengence feels and plays, is enough for me to not waste a second of time playing it.

For the life of me, I don't know why all campaigns aren't alliance-locked. It is what people want to play, as indicated by the fact that the alliance-locked campaigns were always full vs. the other campaigns. I don't really care whether people have characters of different colors - then just make the choice to play on that alliance for the duration of the campaign. It's really no big deal at all.

One other thing that they should have done IMO is once you are locked into a campaign, you shouldn't be able to join another campaign. You should commit to one Cyrodil Campaign and one Imp City Campaign and that is it. Get rid of this "we can't hold our own so we're going to call in another bar or 2 of backup from another campaign to help us" stuff. Not that it will be a huge issue with things being pared down to just GH and Vengeance, but this is some of the most unsporting behavior I've ever seen. You'll start fighting with roughly even numbers - and you win some and lose some - but as soon as a particular faction loses a couple of fights in a row, they nearly empty greyhost calling for backup. So then you get a 50 man zerg vs 8 people. Absolutely disgusting display of weak and toxic behavior.

JustLovely · May 26

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is that "portion of the community that is happy to have broken and exploitable items" dominate PvP and run everyone else off. So they end up becoming the majority by default. The old adage "if you can't beat them, join them" is very applicable here. So even players who may not be happy with broken and exploitable items end up using them anyway to remain competitive.

Though honestly think the real problem with PvP on this game is (and always has been) this craving for DPS and the belief no one should be able to create a build that can actually live. Every time a successful defensive build emerges on this game that can actually stay alive the amount of.... and I'll be diplomatic and say protesting that occurs is insane and ultimately always ends with ZoS deleting the build from the game.

Until this cycle ends and ZoS stops catering to that segment of the PvP population this game's PvP is going to remain a niche activity avoided by the vast amount of players. I remember back when this game's PvP was popular and fun, and it was solely due to the fact that DPS did not dominate all and players could actually defend themselves. You take that option away, and this is what you end up with.

You lost me when you expressed the belief that ZOS has catered to the PvP community. No PvP main would EVER say that. NEVER. They wouldn't say that because ZOS has essentially ignored Cyrodiil since circa 2016. One time, ONCE, ZOS upgraded their servers and that helped PvP a ton. But it didn't last.

JustLovely · May 26

aetherix8 wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

I don’t think “people don’t like Vengeance” is universally true, but I do think the reaction shows a real problem: Vengeance and Grey Host are serving very different audiences.

Vengeance can be useful as an entry-level or lower-friction PvP mode. I understand why some players like being able to jump in without farming sets, copying builds, or getting deleted by optimized groups. That part has value, especially for newer or more casual PvPers.

But it should not be treated as a replacement for Grey Host or as proof that regular Cyrodiil cannot be improved. A lot of veteran PvP players are not rejecting change just because it is change. They are rejecting a mode that removes too much of what makes ESO PvP feel like ESO: buildcraft, gear choices, class identity, CP, counters, and long-term character investment.

The right path, in my opinion, is:

Keep Vengeance as an optional campaign for players who want that style.
Keep Grey Host as the main traditional Cyrodiil experience.
Stop removing or sidelining Grey Host during tests.
Use real population, retention, queue, and platform-specific data before calling Vengeance a success or failure.
Continue working on Grey Host issues like performance, heal/shield stacking, proc balance, faction imbalance, and ball group counterplay.
If Vengeance lives alongside Grey Host, great. More options are good. But if Vengeance becomes the answer to every Cyrodiil complaint, then it is going to keep frustrating the exact players who have stuck with ESO PvP for years.

ZOS should not frame this as “Vengeance or nothing.” The better answer is Vengeance for the players who enjoy that format, and meaningful Grey Host improvements for the players who still want traditional ESO PvP.

General remark, and not a direct answer to your post, Cooperharley: while reading this thread and others that are related, I notice a significant lack of clarity in most posts.

Players talk about fixing Cyrodiil, but their discourse is vague, to put it gently.

Fix what exactly? It is important to express one's ideas as precisely as possible if any tangible results are to be obtained.

My take on the "fixing Grey Host" question is as follows, and is based on this thread's OP https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1

Gray Host performance cannot be fixed, and the devs won't be pursuing this goal anymore.

Gray Host balance can be fixed , as it isn't at all said otherwise. More than that, ZOS recently adjusted how HoT stacking works in Cyrodiil, which proves that the devs are still committed to improving the balance.

I believe it is very worthwhile to keep pushing for balance adjustments, while specifying the 'balance' part of the equation. Performance appears to be a lost cause.

Edit emphasis

It's a lie to claim ZOS can't fix performance in normal live Grey Host. ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they just tried. As it stands, ZOS has never even tried limiting heal and shield stacking, which is the #1 request from the PvP community to help performance and improve QoL in Cyrodiil. So they really haven't even tried yet.

And if ZOS can't fix Grey Host, then they can't build a new system from scratch that will work as intended either.

JustLovely · May 26

barney2525 wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

You are not the majority so please do not represent yourself as such.

Not everything is for everybody so I'm sure you are dissappointed you must be without GH for a time. I'd like a pvp ro;; back to Elsewyr but we all know that isn't happening, so we will have to work with what we have. GH will be back in it cheesy, meta bustedness soon enough

You are the minority. So please do not represent yourself as the majority.

The vast majority of the PvP community will not play vengeance under any circumstances. We will leave the game before playing vengeance again.

We've put in our time and treasure to be able to play GH. Maybe next time they run vengeance they should remove all PvE zones from the game so people like you would have some experience with being treated the same way the PvP community gets treated during vengeance....the perfect name for what ZOS is doing to the PvP community.

I think this is actually a big part of the problem. Legacy PVPers like yourself see themselves as some golden commodity that ZoS needs to hold on to. They really don't.

MMOs that are on a maintenance lifecycle are held together by new players. New players dont join Grey Host because of the knowledge and skill gap. Vengeance addresses this. You leaving is not a problem for ZoS, they have already gotten plenty of dollars out of you, your Lifetime Value (LTV) as a client is almost completely dried up.

On the other hand, if they can get a new player to lock in for a year, there are thousands of dollars of potential in cosmetics etc that they have never unlocked, but you have. The lifeblood of an MMO is its new players, and Grey Host is completely unfriendly to new players. Vengeance is. It's a simple equation.

Regardless of what you may 'feel' - Vengeance is the right business decision and it is actually fun and accessible (as someone who runs a 500 person guild who is largely casuals, we LOVE vengeance).

You can see this trend in all MMOs, and even in what else ZoS is doing (Solo Dungeons, Making Companions more Appetizing (heart week, xp floor drops), etc. All of these things are trending toward making the game easier and more accessible with optional difficulty (e.g. overland sliders).

wow.

COMPLETELY Disagree. Your business produces a specific product. The more the buyer uses the Product, the more options they find use for the product. The more they like it, the more they buy it.

The Company NEVER says " That's it. We are completely stopping production of Product A. Instead, the ONLY thing we offer is Product T. "

That is NOT a Smart business model.

People have been playing PvP for Years. (and personally I am NOT one of them. I do BGs for achievements and that's it) They have put in hundreds of hours EARNING the gear and skills needed to be very successful. To have all that hard work Wiped out and literally Thrown away By the Company, is a Terrible Business decision.

You can't Stop offering a Product that has been reasonably successful for years. You figure out Objectively what the flaws are and you Adjust the Main product. It's OK to ADD something New, but you do Not End your Main product. People's MONEY comes from their Loyalty to the Product. When the Company is Not Loyal to the Buyer, the Buyer Leaves.

And it's real Easy for people who have No stake in the Company to say " Fine, Leave. It's no big deal ".

Vengeance is ZOS saying to the PvP community "Fine, Leave. It's no big deal". Vengeance is ZOS' vengeance on the PvP community.

Jeremy · May 28

JustLovely wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is that "portion of the community that is happy to have broken and exploitable items" dominate PvP and run everyone else off. So they end up becoming the majority by default. The old adage "if you can't beat them, join them" is very applicable here. So even players who may not be happy with broken and exploitable items end up using them anyway to remain competitive.

Though honestly think the real problem with PvP on this game is (and always has been) this craving for DPS and the belief no one should be able to create a build that can actually live. Every time a successful defensive build emerges on this game that can actually stay alive the amount of.... and I'll be diplomatic and say protesting that occurs is insane and ultimately always ends with ZoS deleting the build from the game.

Until this cycle ends and ZoS stops catering to that segment of the PvP population this game's PvP is going to remain a niche activity avoided by the vast amount of players. I remember back when this game's PvP was popular and fun, and it was solely due to the fact that DPS did not dominate all and players could actually defend themselves. You take that option away, and this is what you end up with.

You lost me when you expressed the belief that ZOS has catered to the PvP community. No PvP main would EVER say that. NEVER. They wouldn't say that because ZOS has essentially ignored Cyrodiil since circa 2016. One time, ONCE, ZOS upgraded their servers and that helped PvP a ton. But it didn't last.

I said they cater to a segment of the PvP community that favors DPS above all else and is diametrically opposed to builds that can successfully defend themselves. The fact they have deleted nearly every build I have ever created that could actually live on this game confirms that. So not only am I saying it. But I'm saying while knowing it is 100% true.

James-Wayne · May 28

It's not that I don't like it's just that it's still a laggy mess in Australia so no real point in playing

BXR_Lonestar · May 28

Jeremy wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is that "portion of the community that is happy to have broken and exploitable items" dominate PvP and run everyone else off. So they end up becoming the majority by default. The old adage "if you can't beat them, join them" is very applicable here. So even players who may not be happy with broken and exploitable items end up using them anyway to remain competitive.

Though honestly think the real problem with PvP on this game is (and always has been) this craving for DPS and the belief no one should be able to create a build that can actually live. Every time a successful defensive build emerges on this game that can actually stay alive the amount of.... and I'll be diplomatic and say protesting that occurs is insane and ultimately always ends with ZoS deleting the build from the game.

Until this cycle ends and ZoS stops catering to that segment of the PvP population this game's PvP is going to remain a niche activity avoided by the vast amount of players. I remember back when this game's PvP was popular and fun, and it was solely due to the fact that DPS did not dominate all and players could actually defend themselves. You take that option away, and this is what you end up with.

You lost me when you expressed the belief that ZOS has catered to the PvP community. No PvP main would EVER say that. NEVER. They wouldn't say that because ZOS has essentially ignored Cyrodiil since circa 2016. One time, ONCE, ZOS upgraded their servers and that helped PvP a ton. But it didn't last.

I said they cater to a segment of the PvP community that favors DPS above all else and is diametrically opposed to builds that can successfully defend themselves. The fact they have deleted nearly every build I have ever created that could actually live on this game confirms that. So not only am I saying it. But I'm saying while knowing it is 100% true.

But that is not true. I have at least 5-6 builds that are super strong, defensive, and it is going to take at least half-a-dozen players to take me down. A couple of tanks, a couple of healers, a couple of shielders.

And all those rotten DPS you keep complaining about fold in half if they're not properly supported in a group with someone throwing out heals and defensive buffs. If they don't fold, they're running for their lives, and their offensive window is THAT much smaller.

I think the problem is that the average player doesn't understand HOW to make a character survivable (and there are multiple ways to do it) in this meta, and so unless you know what you are doing, some are opting to sit out. But just because the average player is experiencing that doesn't mean that it is true.

Unfortunately, the average PVP player doesn't even seem to understand that you can negate a significant portion of incoming damage - regardless of armor weight you are wearing - by just holding block at the right time...

Iriidius · May 31

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is that "portion of the community that is happy to have broken and exploitable items" dominate PvP and run everyone else off. So they end up becoming the majority by default. The old adage "if you can't beat them, join them" is very applicable here. So even players who may not be happy with broken and exploitable items end up using them anyway to remain competitive.

Though honestly think the real problem with PvP on this game is (and always has been) this craving for DPS and the belief no one should be able to create a build that can actually live. Every time a successful defensive build emerges on this game that can actually stay alive the amount of.... and I'll be diplomatic and say protesting that occurs is insane and ultimately always ends with ZoS deleting the build from the game.

Until this cycle ends and ZoS stops catering to that segment of the PvP population this game's PvP is going to remain a niche activity avoided by the vast amount of players. I remember back when this game's PvP was popular and fun, and it was solely due to the fact that DPS did not dominate all and players could actually defend themselves. You take that option away, and this is what you end up with.

You lost me when you expressed the belief that ZOS has catered to the PvP community. No PvP main would EVER say that. NEVER. They wouldn't say that because ZOS has essentially ignored Cyrodiil since circa 2016. One time, ONCE, ZOS upgraded their servers and that helped PvP a ton. But it didn't last.

I said they cater to a segment of the PvP community that favors DPS above all else and is diametrically opposed to builds that can successfully defend themselves. The fact they have deleted nearly every build I have ever created that could actually live on this game confirms that. So not only am I saying it. But I'm saying while knowing it is 100% true.

But that is not true. I have at least 5-6 builds that are super strong, defensive, and it is going to take at least half-a-dozen players to take me down. A couple of tanks, a couple of healers, a couple of shielders.

And all those rotten DPS you keep complaining about fold in half if they're not properly supported in a group with someone throwing out heals and defensive buffs. If they don't fold, they're running for their lives, and their offensive window is THAT much smaller.

I think the problem is that the average player doesn't understand HOW to make a character survivable (and there are multiple ways to do it) in this meta, and so unless you know what you are doing, some are opting to sit out. But just because the average player is experiencing that doesn't mean that it is true.

Unfortunately, the average PVP player doesn't even seem to understand that you can negate a significant portion of incoming damage - regardless of armor weight you are wearing - by just holding block at the right time...

I doubt very much that the average PvP player learns how to make metabuild before he learns how to block. Block is a mechanic existing in almost every game with swords and already tought in the tutorial while theorycrafting is not.
If you die because you failed to block you know what you did wrong and what you have to do to improve at least. But there are builds who will kill you while blocking almost as fast as if you don’t.

Iriidius · May 31

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

You absolutely can because their alternate content is pve, below 50, ravenwatch, and BR.

the only reason you have less veterans there is that its less active.

that and because its not locked out which is also a part of the whole casual campaign thing, if you're wanting an easier time, log into the faction that is zerging the most. Thats exactly what they did in vengeance the last time, literally no difference.

Respectfully Zos, I refuse to play any pvp camp that isn't locked. We already have enough trolls/griefers in locked camps as it is (friends of other factions, proven alt accounts - against ToS by the way but whatever -) the last thing we need is a main camp that isn't locked.

Oh DC is trying to take this scroll... let me log into my alt really quick (theres no queue in vengence)... picks up scroll.. RP walks it until it times out and resets.

This is just a small fraction of the stupid griefing stuff that is already happening in GH that will just get 10x in Veng.

This reason alone, not even including how vengence feels and plays, is enough for me to not waste a second of time playing it.

For the life of me, I don't know why all campaigns aren't alliance-locked. It is what people want to play, as indicated by the fact that the alliance-locked campaigns were always full vs. the other campaigns. I don't really care whether people have characters of different colors - then just make the choice to play on that alliance for the duration of the campaign. It's really no big deal at all.

One other thing that they should have done IMO is once you are locked into a campaign, you shouldn't be able to join another campaign. You should commit to one Cyrodil Campaign and one Imp City Campaign and that is it. Get rid of this "we can't hold our own so we're going to call in another bar or 2 of backup from another campaign to help us" stuff. Not that it will be a huge issue with things being pared down to just GH and Vengeance, but this is some of the most unsporting behavior I've ever seen. You'll start fighting with roughly even numbers - and you win some and lose some - but as soon as a particular faction loses a couple of fights in a row, they nearly empty greyhost calling for backup. So then you get a 50 man zerg vs 8 people. Absolutely disgusting display of weak and toxic behavior.

The alliance locked were always full because when they introduced alliance lock they put it on the 30 days cp campaign that was already always full before and not on the empty 7 days campaigns.
Even notorious factionswappers don’t join already empty campaigns to factionswap. Change at the end of campaign is usually enaugh to almost always be on winning side as dominating faction often stays the same for months or even years.

Preventing players from joining other campaigns will prevent many from PvPing at all when GreyHost has long queue and Blackreach is so empty you cant find any fights. You can‘t even take a look at campaigns before making them your home if you cant enter them.
Players would be unable to PvP more often than not and quit unless they have multiple accounts.

Bo0137 · May 31

I like vengeance

Jeremy · May 31

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is that "portion of the community that is happy to have broken and exploitable items" dominate PvP and run everyone else off. So they end up becoming the majority by default. The old adage "if you can't beat them, join them" is very applicable here. So even players who may not be happy with broken and exploitable items end up using them anyway to remain competitive.

Though honestly think the real problem with PvP on this game is (and always has been) this craving for DPS and the belief no one should be able to create a build that can actually live. Every time a successful defensive build emerges on this game that can actually stay alive the amount of.... and I'll be diplomatic and say protesting that occurs is insane and ultimately always ends with ZoS deleting the build from the game.

Until this cycle ends and ZoS stops catering to that segment of the PvP population this game's PvP is going to remain a niche activity avoided by the vast amount of players. I remember back when this game's PvP was popular and fun, and it was solely due to the fact that DPS did not dominate all and players could actually defend themselves. You take that option away, and this is what you end up with.

You lost me when you expressed the belief that ZOS has catered to the PvP community. No PvP main would EVER say that. NEVER. They wouldn't say that because ZOS has essentially ignored Cyrodiil since circa 2016. One time, ONCE, ZOS upgraded their servers and that helped PvP a ton. But it didn't last.

I said they cater to a segment of the PvP community that favors DPS above all else and is diametrically opposed to builds that can successfully defend themselves. The fact they have deleted nearly every build I have ever created that could actually live on this game confirms that. So not only am I saying it. But I'm saying while knowing it is 100% true.

But that is not true. I have at least 5-6 builds that are super strong, defensive, and it is going to take at least half-a-dozen players to take me down. A couple of tanks, a couple of healers, a couple of shielders.

And all those rotten DPS you keep complaining about fold in half if they're not properly supported in a group with someone throwing out heals and defensive buffs. If they don't fold, they're running for their lives, and their offensive window is THAT much smaller.

I think the problem is that the average player doesn't understand HOW to make a character survivable (and there are multiple ways to do it) in this meta, and so unless you know what you are doing, some are opting to sit out. But just because the average player is experiencing that doesn't mean that it is true.

Unfortunately, the average PVP player doesn't even seem to understand that you can negate a significant portion of incoming damage - regardless of armor weight you are wearing - by just holding block at the right time...

What's your character's name? I'm going to invite to join me in a battleground and see you live against 4 players, let alone half a dozen.

Muizer · May 31

JustLovely wrote: »

It's a lie to claim ZOS can't fix performance in normal live Grey Host. ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they just tried. As it stands, ZOS has never even tried limiting heal and shield stacking, which is the #1 request from the PvP community to help performance and improve QoL in Cyrodiil. So they really haven't even tried yet.

With Vengeance, they built Cyrodiil PvP up from the basics. Current iteration seems to be the limit of complexity the engine can handle. What you are suggesting goes way beyond that, no? So what's the point in trying?

JustLovely · June 1

Muizer wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

It's a lie to claim ZOS can't fix performance in normal live Grey Host. ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they just tried. As it stands, ZOS has never even tried limiting heal and shield stacking, which is the #1 request from the PvP community to help performance and improve QoL in Cyrodiil. So they really haven't even tried yet.

With Vengeance, they built Cyrodiil PvP up from the basics. Current iteration seems to be the limit of complexity the engine can handle. What you are suggesting goes way beyond that, no? So what's the point in trying?

ZOS been telling us for a decade they working on improving performance in Cyrodiil. So it's totally reasonable to expect that they do just that. Unreasonable would be NOT expecting them to do what they've always said they were doing all along.

ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they just made the investment to do so.

Luneca · June 1

JustLovely wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

It's a lie to claim ZOS can't fix performance in normal live Grey Host. ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they just tried. As it stands, ZOS has never even tried limiting heal and shield stacking, which is the #1 request from the PvP community to help performance and improve QoL in Cyrodiil. So they really haven't even tried yet.

With Vengeance, they built Cyrodiil PvP up from the basics. Current iteration seems to be the limit of complexity the engine can handle. What you are suggesting goes way beyond that, no? So what's the point in trying?

ZOS been telling us for a decade they working on improving performance in Cyrodiil. So it's totally reasonable to expect that they do just that. Unreasonable would be NOT expecting them to do what they've always said they were doing all along.

ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they just made the investment to do so.

If they want to fix it, they can start by addressing just how litered the game is with conditionals. Live server is so bad that race conditions happen all the time. In fact, it's to the point that it's abusable...

aetherix8 · June 1

Muizer wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

It's a lie to claim ZOS can't fix performance in normal live Grey Host. ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they just tried. As it stands, ZOS has never even tried limiting heal and shield stacking, which is the #1 request from the PvP community to help performance and improve QoL in Cyrodiil. So they really haven't even tried yet.

With Vengeance, they built Cyrodiil PvP up from the basics. Current iteration seems to be the limit of complexity the engine can handle. What you are suggesting goes way beyond that, no? So what's the point in trying?

ZOS is going to add item sets later in the year. It appears that there is still room to add more systems while maintaining current performance.

BXR_Lonestar · June 1

Jeremy wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is that "portion of the community that is happy to have broken and exploitable items" dominate PvP and run everyone else off. So they end up becoming the majority by default. The old adage "if you can't beat them, join them" is very applicable here. So even players who may not be happy with broken and exploitable items end up using them anyway to remain competitive.

Though honestly think the real problem with PvP on this game is (and always has been) this craving for DPS and the belief no one should be able to create a build that can actually live. Every time a successful defensive build emerges on this game that can actually stay alive the amount of.... and I'll be diplomatic and say protesting that occurs is insane and ultimately always ends with ZoS deleting the build from the game.

Until this cycle ends and ZoS stops catering to that segment of the PvP population this game's PvP is going to remain a niche activity avoided by the vast amount of players. I remember back when this game's PvP was popular and fun, and it was solely due to the fact that DPS did not dominate all and players could actually defend themselves. You take that option away, and this is what you end up with.

You lost me when you expressed the belief that ZOS has catered to the PvP community. No PvP main would EVER say that. NEVER. They wouldn't say that because ZOS has essentially ignored Cyrodiil since circa 2016. One time, ONCE, ZOS upgraded their servers and that helped PvP a ton. But it didn't last.

I said they cater to a segment of the PvP community that favors DPS above all else and is diametrically opposed to builds that can successfully defend themselves. The fact they have deleted nearly every build I have ever created that could actually live on this game confirms that. So not only am I saying it. But I'm saying while knowing it is 100% true.

But that is not true. I have at least 5-6 builds that are super strong, defensive, and it is going to take at least half-a-dozen players to take me down. A couple of tanks, a couple of healers, a couple of shielders.

And all those rotten DPS you keep complaining about fold in half if they're not properly supported in a group with someone throwing out heals and defensive buffs. If they don't fold, they're running for their lives, and their offensive window is THAT much smaller.

I think the problem is that the average player doesn't understand HOW to make a character survivable (and there are multiple ways to do it) in this meta, and so unless you know what you are doing, some are opting to sit out. But just because the average player is experiencing that doesn't mean that it is true.

Unfortunately, the average PVP player doesn't even seem to understand that you can negate a significant portion of incoming damage - regardless of armor weight you are wearing - by just holding block at the right time...

What's your character's name? I'm going to invite to join me in a battleground and see you live against 4 players, let alone half a dozen.

Are you on XBOX NA?

Also keep in mind that BG's is entirely different because it is no CP. That in theory makes it more balanced for players with lower CP, but you also get some brutal sweaties in there.

And yes, I have some tanky builds that can survive in BG's too, but keep this in mind: a tank or a healer will only last so long in ANY fight without being supported by adequate DPS who can brawl it out with the opponents. Otherwise, the tankiest of characters can get overwhelmed by a forced block-drop and timed ulti dump, and the most powerful of healers can have their sustain overwhelmed if they're focused.

And NGL, BG's is a bad place to focus on if you're talking about PVP Globally. BG's is known to have some of the worst PVP experiences offered in ESO because of the way it is structured, and even experienced players can find themselves on the bad end of a match

Muizer · June 1

JustLovely wrote: »

ZOS been telling us for a decade they working on improving performance in Cyrodiil. So it's totally reasonable to expect that they do just that. Unreasonable would be NOT expecting them to do what they've always said they were doing all along.

Absolutely. That doesn't mean they can though.

JustLovely wrote: »

ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they just made the investment to do so.

There's no guarantee you can fix something if it never worked in the first place. That's wishful thinking. It's the very mistake ZOS made that caused this mess: They allowed performance to degrade hoping but not knowing they would be able to 'fix' it later!

@aetherix8 I hope they can add some sets with static effects to create some build variety. Perhaps Venegeance will end up something close to what Cyrodiil was on release.

aetherix8 · June 2

Muizer wrote: »

@aetherix8 I hope they can add some sets with static effects to create some build variety. Perhaps Venegeance will end up something close to what Cyrodiil was on release.

It appears that they are going to add item sets, but disable everything except the full set bonus. I'm not sure if this is correct, but it seems they will do the exact opposite of no-proc: no flat stat option to adjust health or damage, it will be just effect procs. Which to me sounds pretty bad, but I reserve any potential rage for when it actually goes live.

Jeremy · June 2

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is that "portion of the community that is happy to have broken and exploitable items" dominate PvP and run everyone else off. So they end up becoming the majority by default. The old adage "if you can't beat them, join them" is very applicable here. So even players who may not be happy with broken and exploitable items end up using them anyway to remain competitive.

Though honestly think the real problem with PvP on this game is (and always has been) this craving for DPS and the belief no one should be able to create a build that can actually live. Every time a successful defensive build emerges on this game that can actually stay alive the amount of.... and I'll be diplomatic and say protesting that occurs is insane and ultimately always ends with ZoS deleting the build from the game.

Until this cycle ends and ZoS stops catering to that segment of the PvP population this game's PvP is going to remain a niche activity avoided by the vast amount of players. I remember back when this game's PvP was popular and fun, and it was solely due to the fact that DPS did not dominate all and players could actually defend themselves. You take that option away, and this is what you end up with.

You lost me when you expressed the belief that ZOS has catered to the PvP community. No PvP main would EVER say that. NEVER. They wouldn't say that because ZOS has essentially ignored Cyrodiil since circa 2016. One time, ONCE, ZOS upgraded their servers and that helped PvP a ton. But it didn't last.

I said they cater to a segment of the PvP community that favors DPS above all else and is diametrically opposed to builds that can successfully defend themselves. The fact they have deleted nearly every build I have ever created that could actually live on this game confirms that. So not only am I saying it. But I'm saying while knowing it is 100% true.

But that is not true. I have at least 5-6 builds that are super strong, defensive, and it is going to take at least half-a-dozen players to take me down. A couple of tanks, a couple of healers, a couple of shielders.

And all those rotten DPS you keep complaining about fold in half if they're not properly supported in a group with someone throwing out heals and defensive buffs. If they don't fold, they're running for their lives, and their offensive window is THAT much smaller.

I think the problem is that the average player doesn't understand HOW to make a character survivable (and there are multiple ways to do it) in this meta, and so unless you know what you are doing, some are opting to sit out. But just because the average player is experiencing that doesn't mean that it is true.

Unfortunately, the average PVP player doesn't even seem to understand that you can negate a significant portion of incoming damage - regardless of armor weight you are wearing - by just holding block at the right time...

What's your character's name? I'm going to invite to join me in a battleground and see you live against 4 players, let alone half a dozen.

Are you on XBOX NA?

Also keep in mind that BG's is entirely different because it is no CP. That in theory makes it more balanced for players with lower CP, but you also get some brutal sweaties in there.

And yes, I have some tanky builds that can survive in BG's too, but keep this in mind: a tank or a healer will only last so long in ANY fight without being supported by adequate DPS who can brawl it out with the opponents. Otherwise, the tankiest of characters can get overwhelmed by a forced block-drop and timed ulti dump, and the most powerful of healers can have their sustain overwhelmed if they're focused.

And NGL, BG's is a bad place to focus on if you're talking about PVP Globally. BG's is known to have some of the worst PVP experiences offered in ESO because of the way it is structured, and even experienced players can find themselves on the bad end of a match

I'm on PC NA.

NO-CP isn't battleground specific. Cyrodil has No CP campaigns. So does Imperial City. So I don't know why you would say No-CP is bad to focus on if you are talking about PvP globally.

And Battlegrounds are where defensive builds should work, because the odds are relatively even. And indeed that used to be the case. I've had many builds over the years that could hold their own and defend flags and face down multiple players in battlegrounds. But those days are long gone. Defensive builds suck now. The amount of DPS players are sporting in the current PvP environment chew through your defenses in a couple of seconds (if you are lucky) and you might as well be wearing paper.

You say you still have builds that can survive in Battlegrounds, but I remain highly skeptical. Because I haven't seen anyone able to defend against the insane offense players are pumping out right now. They are dropping like flies. Some of the stuff you say seems like its from a differently reality. This talk about blocking damage and brawling it out with opponents.... I don't know what planet you are living on, but it's a different one than the one I inhabit. Because if a fight lasts longer than a global cool down it's unusual. I think you might have just been getting lucky and haven't fought against players sporting the latest in DPS carnage. But I won't say you're wrong until I've tried it.

Can you post your tank build? I'll try it out and see if it looks like it has potential.

Aces-High-82 · June 2

Slot Ardent for infinite perma Blockcasting.....and its not like you have no damage either while running 38k res on frontbar, 6k damage 40+ chc, 98 chd, 3k+ crit res, all the mobility you want at 35k HP.

Muizer · June 2

aetherix8 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

@aetherix8 I hope they can add some sets with static effects to create some build variety. Perhaps Venegeance will end up something close to what Cyrodiil was on release.

It appears that they are going to add item sets, but disable everything except the full set bonus. I'm not sure if this is correct, but it seems they will do the exact opposite of no-proc: no flat stat option to adjust health or damage, it will be just effect procs. Which to me sounds pretty bad, but I reserve any potential rage for when it actually goes live.

Yeah I would not like that, personally. I just want them to settle on limited range of sets with static bonuses and then leave PvP alone apart from balance tweaks.

fizzybeef · June 8

As expected nobody wants vengeance. Greyhost poplocked and a queue 57 while vengeance has 0 bars, no activity and like 10 people playing it. The game mode was dead on arrival, I’m sad the time and resources spent on this weren’t invested better

Melivar · June 8

*shrugs* it's early after a long patch. While I am indifferent to Vengeance overall it will be the mode I play when I do PVP. That's how much I despise trying to play in Grey Host.

Also with pop caps Vengeance might be 0 bars with just as many people as Grey Host.

Neither of us will believe the other even if proof is provided so does it really matter.

JohnRingo · June 8

fizzybeef wrote: »

As expected nobody wants vengeance. Greyhost poplocked and a queue 57 while vengeance has 0 bars, no activity and like 10 people playing it. The game mode was dead on arrival, I’m sad the time and resources spent on this weren’t invested better

Vengeance currently has no bars on PS5. FAIL.

fizzybeef · June 8

JohnRingo wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

As expected nobody wants vengeance. Greyhost poplocked and a queue 57 while vengeance has 0 bars, no activity and like 10 people playing it. The game mode was dead on arrival, I’m sad the time and resources spent on this weren’t invested better

Vengeance currently has no bars on PS5. FAIL.

While grey host is pop locked

heimdall14_9 · June 8

JohnRingo wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

As expected nobody wants vengeance. Greyhost poplocked and a queue 57 while vengeance has 0 bars, no activity and like 10 people playing it. The game mode was dead on arrival, I’m sad the time and resources spent on this weren’t invested better

Vengeance currently has no bars on PS5. FAIL.

most players here are PC they dont ever think outside their own platform when wanting something as long as PC NA likes it it will stay no other platform has a chance to speak up as just as fast the PC CREW jumps in with hassle responses to derail every post that doesnt fit its status quo as to how the game should be and unfortunately the dev team back this type of actions to often while suspending the player trying to get the truth out about something

SkillzMFG · June 8

If all the PvE Andies claiming they love Vengenace in this thread jumped onto Vegeance, maybe it wouldn't have ZERO players in peak hours after a major Patch release.

LMAO