The Game Design of BG's is Embarrassing

Mashille · April 21

Some of the design decisions behind BGs are awful and I cannot believe they haven't been fixed yet.

Item 1 - Not Leaving The Spawn or refusing to respawn

Playing deathmatch? Have fun waiting around for more than half the match while 1 of the enemy players sits on the spawn platform for 3+ minutes. This has to be changed as it's such a waste of time. Refusing the respawn also causes the same problem.

Item 2 - Entering the Map by falling off a Platform

Is your team behind in a deathmatch? Well get ****ed, now you all have to be CC'd for 1.5 seconds when re-entering the fight because, after respawning, you have to enter the map by falling off a platform. And while falling, the enemies can hit you with abilities, but you can't do anything about it.

Genuinely embarrassing game design.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 21

Mashille wrote: »

Item 2 - Entering the Map by falling off a Platform
Is your team behind in a deathmatch? Well get ****ed, now you all have to be CC'd for 1.5 seconds when re-entering the fight because, after respawning, you have to enter the map by falling off a platform. And while falling, the enemies can hit you with abilities, but you can't do anything about it.

Genuinely embarrassing game design.

Quick pro tip, if you let go of your movement keys until you hit the ground, you won't do the little somersault when hitting the ground and you get to start casting immediately.

I do agree with everything you said though. Spawn should teleport you to the ground level rather than having to jump down, and the timer for getting forced out of spawn needs to be like 15 seconds max, and ideally done in waves so that anyone in spawn is ported down at the same time (to avoid a trickle effect).

Mashille · May 10

5 matches in a row. All of them has pretty much 0 pvp and were instead 10 minutes of sitting waiting for the round to end while 1-2 enemy players refuse to leave spawn.

Make the max time on spawn 10 seconds my god this is so boring.

Also new item for the list...

Item 3 - Enemy players refusing to respawn
As if sitting on the spawn platform wasn't bad enough. Players can also just choose not to respawn in Deathmatches making the round timer last the full 5 minutes with 0 PvP.

Complete waste of time

React · May 10

Yeah, the two team format just does not work well in ESO. This became even more glaringly clear after the recent 3 team format event gave us an up-to-date comparison in how the two formats compare.

At this point I really feel like the best option for them would be to remove the 4v4's entirely, and have the queue be separated into 8v8s and 4v4v4s.

Schlaflos · May 10

I don’t understand why people are demanding the removal of 4v4 instead of being vocal about the fact that this mode simply needs an upgrade. ESO is missing a true competitive game mode with a solid ranking system and seasonal rewards. In ESO PvP, there really isn’t anything that fully represents that kind of experience.

Cyrodiil is what it is — a war zone. You go into battle either with a coordinated group or alone, you run into another group that might team up with a second one, suddenly you’re outnumbered, and so on. You all know how it goes, and honestly, that’s fine. Cyrodiil is good for what it is. It just needs a few adjustments here and there.

But now on the Battlegrounds side, people are asking for the removal of 4v4 — the mode that is closest to being ranked — because they would rather have 4v4v4 or 8v8? In modes where there is absolutely no real competitive environment? In 4v4v4, there’s constantly a third team interfering in fights. I genuinely can’t understand that mindset.

I can understand the discussion when it comes to 8v8 or 4v4v4, sure. But ESO PvP honestly needs a mode with an actual competitive level to it.

4v4 was a good starting point. The problem is that the mode was never fully developed. It needs proper MMR, deathmatch-only queues, rankings, MMR gain/loss based on wins and defeats, and even a solo shuffle system where teams rotate between rounds over the course of a match. Instead of saying “this mode is trash, remove it,” we should be giving feedback and ideas on how to improve it, because the mode has real potential.

You could even turn it into a true 3v3 arena system with an optional healer queue. Add a debuff after a certain amount of time that reduces healing in order to prevent endless stalemates where nobody dies. There are so many good possibilities.

But instead, there are genuinely people who don’t want something like that and would rather play 4v4v4 where you can win by capturing flags or where fights constantly get interrupted by a third team jumping in, which honestly kills the fun immediately.

What I’m saying is that alongside those modes, ESO also needs a proper rated arena mode. Anyone who has played other MMOs like World of Warcraft knows exactly what I mean. Good MMOs usually have a mode like this available as an option.

MRAW · May 10

You are right, only thing I doubt is there are enough players. For being able to estimate an MMR in 4vs4 you need a lot of games and if you want to match 8 players with similar MMR you need like several hundred players who want to play at the same time. I assume there are only less than 50 players interested in competitive BG at the same time. Most ESO players are rather PvE anyways

moo_2021 · May 10

Schlaflos wrote: »

But now on the Battlegrounds side, people are asking for the removal of 4v4 — the mode that is closest to being ranked — because they would rather have 4v4v4 or 8v8? In modes where there is absolutely no real competitive environment? In 4v4v4, there’s constantly a third team interfering in fights. I genuinely can’t understand that mindset.

Eh, you can't solve 4v4 by ranking because even one good player or one PvE healer could make a huge difference, and then the game would become hopeless for the other team.

4v4v4 was annoying but at least playable most of time, especially in objective modes. And they could easily fix objective modes to force engagement (like the smallest arena map back then). The previous problem was mostly poor map design and objective design - anyone played proper CTF would know it can be a lot more sweaty than TDM consistently.

Decimus · May 10

Schlaflos wrote: »

I don’t understand why people are demanding the removal of 4v4 instead of being vocal about the fact that this mode simply needs an upgrade. ESO is missing a true competitive game mode with a solid ranking system and seasonal rewards. In ESO PvP, there really isn’t anything that fully represents that kind of experience.

Cyrodiil is what it is — a war zone. You go into battle either with a coordinated group or alone, you run into another group that might team up with a second one, suddenly you’re outnumbered, and so on. You all know how it goes, and honestly, that’s fine. Cyrodiil is good for what it is. It just needs a few adjustments here and there.

But now on the Battlegrounds side, people are asking for the removal of 4v4 — the mode that is closest to being ranked — because they would rather have 4v4v4 or 8v8? In modes where there is absolutely no real competitive environment? In 4v4v4, there’s constantly a third team interfering in fights. I genuinely can’t understand that mindset.

I can understand the discussion when it comes to 8v8 or 4v4v4, sure. But ESO PvP honestly needs a mode with an actual competitive level to it.

4v4 was a good starting point. The problem is that the mode was never fully developed. It needs proper MMR, deathmatch-only queues, rankings, MMR gain/loss based on wins and defeats, and even a solo shuffle system where teams rotate between rounds over the course of a match. Instead of saying “this mode is trash, remove it,” we should be giving feedback and ideas on how to improve it, because the mode has real potential.

You could even turn it into a true 3v3 arena system with an optional healer queue. Add a debuff after a certain amount of time that reduces healing in order to prevent endless stalemates where nobody dies. There are so many good possibilities.

But instead, there are genuinely people who don’t want something like that and would rather play 4v4v4 where you can win by capturing flags or where fights constantly get interrupted by a third team jumping in, which honestly kills the fun immediately.

What I’m saying is that alongside those modes, ESO also needs a proper rated arena mode. Anyone who has played other MMOs like World of Warcraft knows exactly what I mean. Good MMOs usually have a mode like this available as an option.

This.

If they made solo shuffle in ESO they could make the experience even more fun by introducing proper roles based on the one selected in group finder:
Healer: +50% Healing Done, -50% Healing Received, -50% Damage Done
DD/Tank: -50% Healing Done, +50% Healing Received

...this way you'd have less crosshealing, no unkillable healer (since Healing Received penalty would be there to off-set Healing Done) and more defined healer role around which other players can rotate, plus a limitation of only one Healer per team.

There's a lot of options for them to turn BGs into something fun, just gotta look at how other games do it.

Mashille · May 18

Just had another 2 Deathmatches in a row where some loser would refuse to leave the enemy spawn.

What a boring 10 minutes of my life.

I will not stop talking about this until they fix it.

Mashille · May 29

Another deathmatch where my own team mate refused to respawn, wasting everyone's time.

Then another deathmatch immediately following that where an enemy refused to leave the spawn platform.

What a fun game...

Gabriel_H · May 29

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I do agree with everything you said though. Spawn should teleport you to the ground level rather than having to jump down, and the timer for getting forced out of spawn needs to be like 15 seconds max, and ideally done in waves so that anyone in spawn is ported down at the same time (to avoid a trickle effect).

It shouldn't force players off the spawn point. It should send up giant spikes doing massive damage and one-shotting them.

Gabriel_H · May 29

Decimus wrote: »

Schlaflos wrote: »

I don’t understand why people are demanding the removal of 4v4 instead of being vocal about the fact that this mode simply needs an upgrade. ESO is missing a true competitive game mode with a solid ranking system and seasonal rewards. In ESO PvP, there really isn’t anything that fully represents that kind of experience.

Cyrodiil is what it is — a war zone. You go into battle either with a coordinated group or alone, you run into another group that might team up with a second one, suddenly you’re outnumbered, and so on. You all know how it goes, and honestly, that’s fine. Cyrodiil is good for what it is. It just needs a few adjustments here and there.

But now on the Battlegrounds side, people are asking for the removal of 4v4 — the mode that is closest to being ranked — because they would rather have 4v4v4 or 8v8? In modes where there is absolutely no real competitive environment? In 4v4v4, there’s constantly a third team interfering in fights. I genuinely can’t understand that mindset.

I can understand the discussion when it comes to 8v8 or 4v4v4, sure. But ESO PvP honestly needs a mode with an actual competitive level to it.

4v4 was a good starting point. The problem is that the mode was never fully developed. It needs proper MMR, deathmatch-only queues, rankings, MMR gain/loss based on wins and defeats, and even a solo shuffle system where teams rotate between rounds over the course of a match. Instead of saying “this mode is trash, remove it,” we should be giving feedback and ideas on how to improve it, because the mode has real potential.

You could even turn it into a true 3v3 arena system with an optional healer queue. Add a debuff after a certain amount of time that reduces healing in order to prevent endless stalemates where nobody dies. There are so many good possibilities.

But instead, there are genuinely people who don’t want something like that and would rather play 4v4v4 where you can win by capturing flags or where fights constantly get interrupted by a third team jumping in, which honestly kills the fun immediately.

What I’m saying is that alongside those modes, ESO also needs a proper rated arena mode. Anyone who has played other MMOs like World of Warcraft knows exactly what I mean. Good MMOs usually have a mode like this available as an option.

This.

If they made solo shuffle in ESO they could make the experience even more fun by introducing proper roles based on the one selected in group finder:
Healer: +50% Healing Done, -50% Healing Received, -50% Damage Done
DD/Tank: -50% Healing Done, +50% Healing Received

...this way you'd have less crosshealing, no unkillable healer (since Healing Received penalty would be there to off-set Healing Done) and more defined healer role around which other players can rotate, plus a limitation of only one Healer per team.

There's a lot of options for them to turn BGs into something fun, just gotta look at how other games do it.

They already have the groundwork done for this. It just needs a tweak and auto-assign. i.e. Vengeance Perk system.

Radiate77 · May 29

Schlaflos wrote: »

I don’t understand why people are demanding the removal of 4v4 instead of being vocal about the fact that this mode simply needs an upgrade. ESO is missing a true competitive game mode with a solid ranking system and seasonal rewards. In ESO PvP, there really isn’t anything that fully represents that kind of experience.

Cyrodiil is what it is — a war zone. You go into battle either with a coordinated group or alone, you run into another group that might team up with a second one, suddenly you’re outnumbered, and so on. You all know how it goes, and honestly, that’s fine. Cyrodiil is good for what it is. It just needs a few adjustments here and there.

But now on the Battlegrounds side, people are asking for the removal of 4v4 — the mode that is closest to being ranked — because they would rather have 4v4v4 or 8v8? In modes where there is absolutely no real competitive environment? In 4v4v4, there’s constantly a third team interfering in fights. I genuinely can’t understand that mindset.

I can understand the discussion when it comes to 8v8 or 4v4v4, sure. But ESO PvP honestly needs a mode with an actual competitive level to it.

4v4 was a good starting point. The problem is that the mode was never fully developed. It needs proper MMR, deathmatch-only queues, rankings, MMR gain/loss based on wins and defeats, and even a solo shuffle system where teams rotate between rounds over the course of a match. Instead of saying “this mode is trash, remove it,” we should be giving feedback and ideas on how to improve it, because the mode has real potential.

You could even turn it into a true 3v3 arena system with an optional healer queue. Add a debuff after a certain amount of time that reduces healing in order to prevent endless stalemates where nobody dies. There are so many good possibilities.

But instead, there are genuinely people who don’t want something like that and would rather play 4v4v4 where you can win by capturing flags or where fights constantly get interrupted by a third team jumping in, which honestly kills the fun immediately.

What I’m saying is that alongside those modes, ESO also needs a proper rated arena mode. Anyone who has played other MMOs like World of Warcraft knows exactly what I mean. Good MMOs usually have a mode like this available as an option.

Well said.

Luneca · May 29

It's entertaining watching people argue over BGs and pretending 3-team BGs will bring people back. It won't. It's a bad game mode because it's not balanced in the slightest.

Even worse is the balance at low level BGs when you fight someone wearing legendary gear that's "farming" it.

The PvP community is ultimately at fault for killing all PvP in the game.

People that do anything to win in the game, then try so hard to pretend it takes skill while they post boring footage up on the internet and then ask for buffs/nerfs of classes and skills to favor them even more -- part of the problem.

PvP has a weird culture where people think that the game takes skill, yet want to fight opponents with the least possible ability to fight back.

We see it play out everywhere in PvP: ball groups, that guy running the buggy gear, that guy running a setup that takes 0 real damage, etc. -- this also includes friends that queue at the same time in the "random" queue and end up on the same side.

PvP is not a competitive environment, and it's not because it lacks balance at every level. That's why it's not popular and it will never be popular.

I'm not sure the significance of 2-sided or 3-sided when someone can just leap out of stealth and kill the entire team with 0 counter. 2 or 3-side not mattering.

I am sure that is fun for people that expect a fair chance to actually win, or you know at the very least do something impactful.

That it isn't the case that they matter or cause any real change in the outcome is the exact reason why a majority of players refuse to bother doing BGs except if they need the tasks completed or exp.

Weesacs · May 29

Anyway, I agree OP, its pathetic right?.

I've complained about the poor BG design many times on the forums but they seem to just fall on deaf ears.

- Players sitting in spawn
- Players being able to attack from spawn
- Completely imbalanced teams
- Shockingly poor implemented MMR
- Players not rezzing and wasting everyones time
- Healers not being balanced across teams
- Ultimates not being reset at start of each round
- and so on ...

Sigh, I just wish they would put some time and effort into fixing BGs ...

reazea · May 29

2 team BG's are absolutely something ZOS should be embarrassed about.

reazea · May 29

Luneca wrote: »

It's entertaining watching people argue over BGs and pretending 3-team BGs will bring people back. It won't. It's a bad game mode because it's not balanced in the slightest.

Even worse is the balance at low level BGs when you fight someone wearing legendary gear that's "farming" it.

The PvP community is ultimately at fault for killing all PvP in the game.

People that do anything to win in the game, then try so hard to pretend it takes skill while they post boring footage up on the internet and then ask for buffs/nerfs of classes and skills to favor them even more -- part of the problem.

PvP has a weird culture where people think that the game takes skill, yet want to fight opponents with the least possible ability to fight back.

We see it play out everywhere in PvP: ball groups, that guy running the buggy gear, that guy running a setup that takes 0 real damage, etc. -- this also includes friends that queue at the same time in the "random" queue and end up on the same side.

PvP is not a competitive environment, and it's not because it lacks balance at every level. That's why it's not popular and it will never be popular.

I'm not sure the significance of 2-sided or 3-sided when someone can just leap out of stealth and kill the entire team with 0 counter. 2 or 3-side not mattering.

I am sure that is fun for people that expect a fair chance to actually win, or you know at the very least do something impactful.

That it isn't the case that they matter or cause any real change in the outcome is the exact reason why a majority of players refuse to bother doing BGs except if they need the tasks completed or exp.

Can you show us on the doll where the evil PvP player touched you?

Weesacs · May 30

Another thing, whos idea was it to have 4 v 3? I mean, they can't even balance 4 v 4. Was just in a 3 v 3 game which was actually quite even and fun. Another player then joins to make it 4 v 3. Games gone. The buff you get being in the 3 team is never enough.

Mashille · June 28

3 minutes left of the match. 1 enemy player refuses to respawn and now I sit here for 3 minutes and bask in this incredible game design...

Vonnegut2506 · June 28

Mashille wrote: »

3 minutes left of the match. 1 enemy player refuses to respawn and now I sit here for 3 minutes and bask in this incredible game design...

If only there was a way for you to not be forced to queue for battlegrounds.

Pepegrillos · June 28

I hope they make an attempt to deliver some sort of ranked mode, but I don't think they will. First because there is no way of getting a proper MMR system plus queues going with the sort of PvP population this game has (let alone the competitive sub-section of that population, which is minimal). Even WoW, which has a competitive culture and a decent-sized population involved in ranked, struggles with this. Then there is the classic issue of all ranked modes: once you release it, you have to start balancing around it. What are the odds that ZoS would be up for that task?

JHartEllis · June 28

Very much agree that the 4v4 matches need design tweaks.

Lots of great suggestions here already. I'll just add one more which is that Crazy King stands out as being especially slow. One thing that could help would be making the second flag spawn in much sooner. The first 5 minutes are not Crazy.

DestroyerPewnack · June 28

Players who refuse to spawn or refuse to leave spawn usually do so in protest, because they feel they've been put in a game where they are extremely outmatched, or have been put in a team with teammates that are extremely outmatched. All of this would go away if Battlegrounds had proper MMR, which it doesn't at the moment. The MMR from what I've read is reset every month, so you have to suffer through loads of games where you're either getting destroyed or the enemy presents no real challenge. And once you get an appropriate MMR that puts you in decent games, well, guess what? It's time for the MMR reset.

Techwolf_Lupindo · June 28

Forcing everyone into a deathmatch is not helping things. Separate the deathmatch que separate from all other ques will help the population problem with battlegrounds. Not having a separate deathmatch que causes all matches to deathmatch due to deathmatchers force to play deathmatch in non-deathmatch.

Mashille · June 29

I think regarding deathmatch I would rework how the rounds work, as the current spawn system just doesn't work with the Deathmach gamemode, both in terms of balance, and in enabling griefing.

Current Deathmatch:

Best of 3
3 lives per round

Revised Deathmatch:

Best of 5
1 life per round

This would stop the respawn issue and keep the matches feeling fast. It would also prevent annoying things like fighting near the enemy spawn the having another enemy respawn and start attacking you from the spawn platform.

It's not a perfect fix. But it would def be better than what they have now imo

Radiate77 · June 29

Mashille wrote: »

I think regarding deathmatch I would rework how the rounds work, as the current spawn system just doesn't work with the Deathmach gamemode, both in terms of balance, and in enabling griefing.

Current Deathmatch:
Best of 3

3 lives per round

Revised Deathmatch:
Best of 5

1 life per round

This would stop the respawn issue and keep the matches feeling fast. It would also prevent annoying things like fighting near the enemy spawn the having another enemy respawn and start attacking you from the spawn platform.

It's not a perfect fix. But it would def be better than what they have now imo

1000% this.
New World’s Arena playlist was exactly as you’ve written, and it was PERFECT…

That game solved matchmade small-scale MMO PvP by giving players control of the type of game they wanted… don’t want or have a healer? Neither will the other team…

There was never a situation where one team had a support and the other team didn’t… and roles were only selectable upon specific build requirements, like a Healer using a Life Staff and a certain threshold of Focus or a Tank using a Taunt Gem and past a Health requirement, yet on ESO you can get trapped in a lobby with three 24k health PvE-build teammates with no cross-healing against a team of 2 wolves, a DK and a healer.

1-life per round is exactly how it should be, and role requirements are a must. If a team has no support, neither should their opponent.

Firstmep · June 29

React wrote: »

Yeah, the two team format just does not work well in ESO. This became even more glaringly clear after the recent 3 team format event gave us an up-to-date comparison in how the two formats compare.

At this point I really feel like the best option for them would be to remove the 4v4's entirely, and have the queue be separated into 8v8s and 4v4v4s.

Honestly it's also horrible map design. The old maps had so many fun features like the portals to the middle in Ularra, or the multi level design of Arcane University. The new bg maps are boring and funnel people into each other's spawn.

jle30303 · June 29

Honestly? I feel the old 3-way maps were much better... especially for the objectives. More distance, and you couldn't camp another team at spawn because that would be leaving the objectives to the 3rd team.

And if players had trouble finding each other to fight against each other...

...how about 8v8v8!

Or are we saying that we don't have enough active PVPers to fill a 24-player battleground? Which I seriously suspect is a possibility.

tomofhyrule · June 30

Current BGs are an awful experience.

Most matches are decided in the first 30s of starting. And for the losing team, you have to slog all the way through to get... nothing out of it but the opportunity to requeue. In some cases, taking the deserter penalty is actually quicker than allowing a no-chance match to go to time and then wait for another match to get your daily box.

This is particularly true with CTR. That gamemode is awful beyond reason - two teams means that all you need to do is turtle up at base and the other team can't hope to get a point, and then there's really no way to gain any medals beyond running a relic. Three team CTR at least was doable.

It took me three tries to get my win coffer. Once I got put on a losing team to backfill. The other two were both CTR (despite 4 other game modes existing). And the one CTR we did win, I got a grand total of zero medal points because evidently guarding the relic is worth a big fat nothing.

Mashille · July 1

Here's a new one.

Round 1 of DM, after losing the first fight the enemy team sat at spawn the whole round resulting in 2 out of the 4 members of my team to quit out of boredom.

Then they proceeded to beat us 4 v 2 and win the match.

Mashille · July 1

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd again.