Reflection on "Balance" after playing a racing game.

SkaiFaith · May 27

In a racing game, no one expects a Mini to beat a Ferrari, no one complains if the Mini gets devastated, and no one asks for the Mini to be buffed or the Ferrari to be nerfed to achieve "balance".
Also, If I take a Ferrari from F1 and go race on mud, a 4X4 will demolish my Ferrari. Again, no one complains about that.

ESO has 300+ armor sets. Why on Nirn should they all "be equally balanced". Same for Skills.
Diversity is strength, right? So having differences, a wide range, gives the sense of choices that matter, of discovery.

If every set and class and skill is "balanced", then choices don't matter.
There will always be a META and you are free to follow it or not - if you want to race against a Ferrari, get a Ferrari. "But I love my Mini and want to only race on that!" Perfectly fine, then participate in the content for you: "Mini races events". Or in the case of ESO: create/join a guild.

"But I can't find people that want to play as I'd like" Aha! That's not an ESO problem. It's not ESO Dev's responsibility, nor of other players.
I'm absolutely NOT saying you are not welcome, but it would be better for you to just play like many already do: do the content you can, the way you can; avoid the rest. Not everything must be "for you", otherwise many would ask for an insta-win button in ToT vs NPCs XD but I can guess they just kindly never touch it.

Find joy in what you can do; don't call for nerfs, destroying gear/systems, hammering sub/classes, and whatnot.
It's ok to love your "Minis". No need to "set Ferraris on fire", please and thank you.

P.S. This is the PoV of someone who generally thinks "buff everything" instead of "nerf everything", so if you see I promote "Restore Oakensoul" I am just asking for what has been taken away from me. Same would be if my Warden gets broken with the rework...
Also, this is just a train of thoughts I wanted to share with no pretense.

Gabriel_H · May 27

The content can be completed on a Lada, and that's where ZOS balance from.

spartaxoxo · May 27

It's ZOS's job to ensure that the gap between top and bottom aren't too great. So that players can't build themselves so badly even though they're wearing the gear specifically designed for their role, that nobody would want them in their group. If ZOS has gear in the game that is so bad that it cannot perform it's most basic job (and it does) then ZOS has failed to balance the gear properly. It would be like if NASCAR told people that a tricycle is a legal alternative to an actual race car, to use your sports analogy. They would never do that because it would put anyone who selected it at a severe disadvantage and there's a reasonable expectation that any vehicle NASCAR says you can use is actually useful for racing.

There needs to be a power gap to provide progression, account for player skill, etc. It needs to be a significant one too so that people are rewarded for putting in the effort to become more skilled. But the gap should not be so wide that people struggle to do the bare minimum a reasonable community would expect of the role.

And there is definitely gear in this game that is essentially a trap at this point. At some point ZOS needs to actually address how terrible set balancing is because the lack of balance kills diversity and discourages player growth

SkaiFaith · May 27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's ZOS's job to ensure that the gap between top and bottom aren't too great. So that players can't build themselves so badly even though they're wearing the gear specifically designed for their role, that nobody would want them in their group. If ZOS has gear in the game that is so bad that it cannot perform it's most basic job (and it does) then ZOS has failed to balance the gear properly. It would be like if NASCAR told people that a tricycle is a legal alternative to an actual race car, to use your sports analogy. They would never do that because it would put anyone who selected it at a severe disadvantage and there's a reasonable expectation that any vehicle NASCAR says you can use is actually useful for racing.

There needs to be a power gap to provide progression, account for player skill, etc. It needs to be a significant one too so that people are rewarded for putting in the effort to become more skilled. But the gap should not be so wide that people struggle to do the bare minimum a reasonable community would expect of the role.

And there is definitely gear in this game that is essentially a trap at this point. At some point ZOS needs to actually address how terrible set balancing is because the lack of balance kills diversity and discourages player growth

I'm not dismissing your point but... for Sheogorath! You've awaken a hidden desire to see a tricycle in a NASCAR race! XD Would be even more funny if wheels would be of cheeeese - thank you

Gabriel_H · 6:42AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There needs to be a power gap to provide progression, account for player skill, etc. It needs to be a significant one too so that people are rewarded for putting in the effort to become more skilled. But the gap should not be so wide that people struggle to do the bare minimum a reasonable community would expect of the role.

That already exists, and it is also well tuned.

I've made this point many times about gear: There are starter sets, progression sets, and current end-game sets. Some sets lean more towards solo, some arena, some small group, and some large group. If the game was played in chronological order, with pauses of a year between chapters, players would see that progression on sets more clearly. That isn't to say there are not outliers.

Sets are the least important thing a player can have. You can put a bad player in the best dps sets, and a skilled player in the worst dps set, and the latter will still outperform the former by a very very wide margin.

The community isn't reasonable. It has the mindset that all MMOs suffer from: Min/Maxing fuelled by content creators. ZOS balance the game around trifectas, but players judge based on dps numbers. That's why you need 120k+ dps parses to get into a SS hardmode. That's why tanks and healers are required to wear dps boosting sets. That's why players are expected to sub-class. The actual game balance does not require any of that though.

Do you need a certain level of dps? Absolutely, but good players can achieve that level without sub-classing, or having the best sets, or without tanks/healers gimping their own role requirements just to boost numbers.

SkaiFaith · 7:36AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There needs to be a power gap to provide progression, account for player skill, etc. It needs to be a significant one too so that people are rewarded for putting in the effort to become more skilled. But the gap should not be so wide that people struggle to do the bare minimum a reasonable community would expect of the role.

That already exists, and it is also well tuned.

I've made this point many times about gear: There are starter sets, progression sets, and current end-game sets. Some sets lean more towards solo, some arena, some small group, and some large group. If the game was played in chronological order, with pauses of a year between chapters, players would see that progression on sets more clearly. That isn't to say there are not outliers.

Sets are the least important thing a player can have. You can put a bad player in the best dps sets, and a skilled player in the worst dps set, and the latter will still outperform the former by a very very wide margin.

The community isn't reasonable. It has the mindset that all MMOs suffer from: Min/Maxing fuelled by content creators. ZOS balance the game around trifectas, but players judge based on dps numbers. That's why you need 120k+ dps parses to get into a SS hardmode. That's why tanks and healers are required to wear dps boosting sets. That's why players are expected to sub-class. The actual game balance does not require any of that though.

Do you need a certain level of dps? Absolutely, but good players can achieve that level without sub-classing, or having the best sets, or without tanks/healers gimping their own role requirements just to boost numbers.

Agree!

I often read online that to complete a Trial you just need 60K DPS.
I am no real DD - I only use Solo Oakensoul build. Before nerf I reached 70+K DPS. Now my DPS is around 60K depending on factors (55K-65K).
While I'd really want to be brought back to my 70+K, I wouldn't expect to reach 130-200K with my Solo Oakensoul build. And I wouldn't ask to nerf those other builds to my DPS level.

Firstmep · 7:42AM

SkaiFaith wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's ZOS's job to ensure that the gap between top and bottom aren't too great. So that players can't build themselves so badly even though they're wearing the gear specifically designed for their role, that nobody would want them in their group. If ZOS has gear in the game that is so bad that it cannot perform it's most basic job (and it does) then ZOS has failed to balance the gear properly. It would be like if NASCAR told people that a tricycle is a legal alternative to an actual race car, to use your sports analogy. They would never do that because it would put anyone who selected it at a severe disadvantage and there's a reasonable expectation that any vehicle NASCAR says you can use is actually useful for racing.

There needs to be a power gap to provide progression, account for player skill, etc. It needs to be a significant one too so that people are rewarded for putting in the effort to become more skilled. But the gap should not be so wide that people struggle to do the bare minimum a reasonable community would expect of the role.

And there is definitely gear in this game that is essentially a trap at this point. At some point ZOS needs to actually address how terrible set balancing is because the lack of balance kills diversity and discourages player growth

I'm not dismissing your point but... for Sheogorath! You've awaken a hidden desire to see a tricycle in a NASCAR race! XD Would be even more funny if wheels would be of cheeeese - thank you

F1 had to institute strict regulations on their cars and the technology that goes into them, so that the differences cannot be that astronomical.

Gabriel_H · 7:51AM

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There needs to be a power gap to provide progression, account for player skill, etc. It needs to be a significant one too so that people are rewarded for putting in the effort to become more skilled. But the gap should not be so wide that people struggle to do the bare minimum a reasonable community would expect of the role.

That already exists, and it is also well tuned.

I've made this point many times about gear: There are starter sets, progression sets, and current end-game sets. Some sets lean more towards solo, some arena, some small group, and some large group. If the game was played in chronological order, with pauses of a year between chapters, players would see that progression on sets more clearly. That isn't to say there are not outliers.

Sets are the least important thing a player can have. You can put a bad player in the best dps sets, and a skilled player in the worst dps set, and the latter will still outperform the former by a very very wide margin.

The community isn't reasonable. It has the mindset that all MMOs suffer from: Min/Maxing fuelled by content creators. ZOS balance the game around trifectas, but players judge based on dps numbers. That's why you need 120k+ dps parses to get into a SS hardmode. That's why tanks and healers are required to wear dps boosting sets. That's why players are expected to sub-class. The actual game balance does not require any of that though.

Do you need a certain level of dps? Absolutely, but good players can achieve that level without sub-classing, or having the best sets, or without tanks/healers gimping their own role requirements just to boost numbers.

Agree!

I often read online that to complete a Trial you just need 60K DPS.
I am no real DD - I only use Solo Oakensoul build. Before nerf I reached 70+K DPS. Now my DPS is around 60K depending on factors (55K-65K).
While I'd really want to be brought back to my 70+K, I wouldn't expect to reach 130-200K with my Solo Oakensoul build. And I wouldn't ask to nerf those other builds to my DPS level.

Depends on the trial of course, but as an example I'll stick with vSS HM. To clear it you have to do the portal mechanic. That requires 3 DDs to burst down the portal boss - they need to average ~42k dps over 90 seconds each to do that. With the power creep, it's possible a single DD can get that done.

For context: My overland solo build, which is built as much for survivability as it is damage can output a sustained near 40k DPS without any real issues, on a pure-classed Templar.

Ordinator199 · 8:00AM

So basically what you are saying is that you want them to add cars into the game as mounts? I don't think thats very lore friendly, besides those spider mounts are already very car mechanical like.

Lord_Hev · 8:20AM

Racing games give you a variety of cars to compete with in their "tiers." Balanced should be "fun" and not homogenized like it is now.

spartaxoxo · 8:52AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Do you need a certain level of dps? Absolutely, but good players can achieve that level without sub-classing, or having the best sets, or without tanks/healers gimping their own role requirements just to boost numbers.

Skill matters more than gear but nobody should be wearing Skooma Smuggler to go fast. Spelunker should never be worn as sustain set in group content despite its resource restore only working when an ally uses your synergy. And that set is sourced from a dungeon.

A new player could easily fall into a trap of like "I want to be werewolf so I'll boost my light attacks. I'll wear Queens Elegance and salvation. Those seem good until I can farm something else." Those are both "DPS" sets after all. But no, they shouldn't wear that combo.Nobody should ever wear any of those sets. They are garbage. The same exact player in bad gear is significantly limiting themselves even if they do nothing else to improve their skill level.

I mean let's actually look at what Spelunker does

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Reduces the cost of your Undaunted abilities by 10%. When an ally uses one of your Undaunted ability synergies you restore 730 Magicka and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

Be so real. This is clearly not balanced for the current game. It's just bad. Having sets like this in the game isn't well tuned. It's imbalanced.

frogthroat · 9:03AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

The content can be completed on a Lada, and that's where ZOS balance from.

Well, continuing with OP's comparison, in a mud race, I would bet on Lada Niva over Ferrari F1 any day of the week. More than that, put that car in the middle of a forest and it'll find its way out.

spartaxoxo · 9:12AM

SkaiFaith wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's ZOS's job to ensure that the gap between top and bottom aren't too great. So that players can't build themselves so badly even though they're wearing the gear specifically designed for their role, that nobody would want them in their group. If ZOS has gear in the game that is so bad that it cannot perform it's most basic job (and it does) then ZOS has failed to balance the gear properly. It would be like if NASCAR told people that a tricycle is a legal alternative to an actual race car, to use your sports analogy. They would never do that because it would put anyone who selected it at a severe disadvantage and there's a reasonable expectation that any vehicle NASCAR says you can use is actually useful for racing.

There needs to be a power gap to provide progression, account for player skill, etc. It needs to be a significant one too so that people are rewarded for putting in the effort to become more skilled. But the gap should not be so wide that people struggle to do the bare minimum a reasonable community would expect of the role.

And there is definitely gear in this game that is essentially a trap at this point. At some point ZOS needs to actually address how terrible set balancing is because the lack of balance kills diversity and discourages player growth

I'm not dismissing your point but... for Sheogorath! You've awaken a hidden desire to see a tricycle in a NASCAR race! XD Would be even more funny if wheels would be of cheeeese - thank you

Haha 😆 Glad it made ya laugh. And now I'm cracking up at the thought of Sheo joining NASCAR.

MRAW · 10:43AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Do you need a certain level of dps? Absolutely, but good players can achieve that level without sub-classing, or having the best sets, or without tanks/healers gimping their own role requirements just to boost numbers.

Skill matters more than gear but nobody should be wearing Skooma Smuggler to go fast. Spelunker should never be worn as sustain set in group content despite its resource restore only working when an ally uses your synergy. And that set is sourced from a dungeon.

A new player could easily fall into a trap of like "I want to be werewolf so I'll boost my light attacks. I'll wear Queens Elegance and salvation. Those seem good until I can farm something else." Those are both "DPS" sets after all. But no, they shouldn't wear that combo.Nobody should ever wear any of those sets. They are garbage. The same exact player in bad gear is significantly limiting themselves even if they do nothing else to improve their skill level.

I mean let's actually look at what Spelunker does

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Reduces the cost of your Undaunted abilities by 10%. When an ally uses one of your Undaunted ability synergies you restore 730 Magicka and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

Be so real. This is clearly not balanced for the current game. It's just bad. Having sets like this in the game isn't well tuned. It's imbalanced.

I agree it might be a problem for newbies that they pick bad sets, however you can just watch any YouTuber and find out what’s meta.

A real problem in balancing I only see in PvP where they complain about Range damage (pulse gankers with shattered signet) are too strong - range in PvP must not oneshot a reasonably equipped player.

Xarc · 10:47AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's ZOS's job to ensure that the gap between top and bottom aren't too great.

100%

Gabriel_H · 11:55AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Reduces the cost of your Undaunted abilities by 10%. When an ally uses one of your Undaunted ability synergies you restore 730 Magicka and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

Be so real. This is clearly not balanced for the current game. It's just bad. Having sets like this in the game isn't well tuned. It's imbalanced.

Depends on where you are using it and why. The set would let someone slot an extra damage skill instead of a sustain one. Most tanks will use most synergies every time they pop. Tanks with decent methods of sustain don't need to, so it's just a case of educating other group members to take them.

Plus, and I repeat: There are starter sets, progression sets, and current end-game sets. Some sets lean more towards solo, some arena, some small group, and some large group. If the game was played in chronological order, with pauses of a year between chapters, players would see that progression on sets more clearly. That isn't to say there are not outliers.

So, is it tuned? Depends on what you view tuning as. There are literally hundreds of builds that are viable in content. Some of those builds prioritise damage, some sustain. Sets are not there to build around, they are there to fill in gaps the build has.