Why Not Just Delete Subclassing

FurryCandyHearts · May 25

I love subclassing and i wish they wouldnt mess with it. Esp on my healers.

spartaxoxo · May 25

AScarlato wrote: »

While no one should be arguing that subclassing is balanced, because it's clearly not, it is clear that people being forced to play specific builds only applies to I'm assuming a small portion of the playerbase. And I feel that small portion of the playerbase has always been "forced" to play in certain ways if they are in guilds that value extreme optimization over everything else.

I'm not sure what content is not clearable without subclassing since not many new things have been released since subclassing was. If guilds requiring it because it makes things faster/easier, well that's their choice but let me know if I'm wrong that content in organized guilds would suddenly not be clearable without subclassing.

Because as far as what I've gathered, we've had power creep, but that shouldn't mean older builds can't finish content.

And if guilds would rather disband than let some of their members play without subclassing, well that's a choice I guess.

This is correct. Pure class builds are mostly outmatched by subclassed ones objectively. But they actually did not nerf them very much. They made a small amount of changes to the pure classes because of subclassing but by and large all the classes remained the same and are capable of completing the same content they always did.

Subclassing is a balance problem not a system problem.

spartaxoxo · May 25

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Why I want is that mid-tier back. I enjoyed going for HMs with my build with a bunch of people who were a) capable of doing HMs and b) are prioritizing fun over sweating. But I've seen how much it eroded in the last few years. I've seen over the past year how my other social guild has gone from running weekly vet trials to not even being able to fill normals anymore. I've seen guilds that prioritized "bring the character you want to this HM" fold because that meant the content was harder to do and people burnt out faster.

While much of this true, I actually found more people able to participate in at least vet trial clears than before. Subclassing has really revitalized the PUG scene after it cratered after u35 and Oakensoul nerfs.

I also found it greatly increased my enjoyment of doing PUG vet dungeons just because I ran into less fake DPS since damage was more accessible to people. ETA I actually don't remember the last time I ran into one anymore.

I have even picked healing back up which I have always really enjoyed but had stopped doing because of how horrible the PUG scene had been.

AScarlato · May 25

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Why I want is that mid-tier back. I enjoyed going for HMs with my build with a bunch of people who were a) capable of doing HMs and b) are prioritizing fun over sweating. But I've seen how much it eroded in the last few years. I've seen over the past year how my other social guild has gone from running weekly vet trials to not even being able to fill normals anymore. I've seen guilds that prioritized "bring the character you want to this HM" fold because that meant the content was harder to do and people burnt out faster.

While much of this true, I actually found more people able to participate in at least vet trial clears than before. Subclassing has really revitalized the PUG scene after it cratered after u35 and Oakensoul nerfs.

I also found it greatly increased my enjoyment of doing PUG vet dungeons just because I ran into less fake DPS since damage was more accessible to people.

I have noticed quite a bit of subclassed beam people, which by virtue of casting beam also gives them constant damage shields as I get into vet dungeons more.

I'm not saying it's very interesting to everyone, but this seems to be a very accessible floor to most of the player base that is a pretty safe playstyle too at the same time.

spartaxoxo · May 25

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Why I want is that mid-tier back. I enjoyed going for HMs with my build with a bunch of people who were a) capable of doing HMs and b) are prioritizing fun over sweating. But I've seen how much it eroded in the last few years. I've seen over the past year how my other social guild has gone from running weekly vet trials to not even being able to fill normals anymore. I've seen guilds that prioritized "bring the character you want to this HM" fold because that meant the content was harder to do and people burnt out faster.

While much of this true, I actually found more people able to participate in at least vet trial clears than before. Subclassing has really revitalized the PUG scene after it cratered after u35 and Oakensoul nerfs.

I also found it greatly increased my enjoyment of doing PUG vet dungeons just because I ran into less fake DPS since damage was more accessible to people.

I have noticed quite a bit of subclassed beam people, which by virtue of casting beam also gives them constant damage shields as I get into vet dungeons more.

I'm not saying it's very interesting to everyone, but this seems to be a very accessible floor to most of the player base that is a pretty safe playstyle too at the same time.

Yeah. The safety thing is a big one too. As them being safer means I don't have to play the horrible run around like a chicken game with them anymore as they'll probably be okay if they choose not to be near me. I obviously prefer the DPS near me so they can get buffs and will try to adjust. But it often resulted in wipes before so seeing them move around way more than necessary was genuinely annoying before and now it doesn't bother me as much.

AScarlato · May 25

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Why I want is that mid-tier back. I enjoyed going for HMs with my build with a bunch of people who were a) capable of doing HMs and b) are prioritizing fun over sweating. But I've seen how much it eroded in the last few years. I've seen over the past year how my other social guild has gone from running weekly vet trials to not even being able to fill normals anymore. I've seen guilds that prioritized "bring the character you want to this HM" fold because that meant the content was harder to do and people burnt out faster.

While much of this true, I actually found more people able to participate in at least vet trial clears than before. Subclassing has really revitalized the PUG scene after it cratered after u35 and Oakensoul nerfs.

I also found it greatly increased my enjoyment of doing PUG vet dungeons just because I ran into less fake DPS since damage was more accessible to people.

I have noticed quite a bit of subclassed beam people, which by virtue of casting beam also gives them constant damage shields as I get into vet dungeons more.

I'm not saying it's very interesting to everyone, but this seems to be a very accessible floor to most of the player base that is a pretty safe playstyle too at the same time.

Yeah. The safety thing is a big one too. As them being safer means I don't have to play the horrible run around like a chicken game with them anymore as they'll probably be okay if they choose not to be near me. I obviously prefer the DPS near me so they can get buffs and will try to adjust. But it often resulted in wipes before so seeing them move around way more than necessary was genuinely annoying before and now it doesn't bother me as much.

Nothing I love more than everyone in the group in complete opposite corners of the room when I'd like to give them combat prayer or even just regen for buffs lol

Xarc · May 25

Imagine:

2030 - Zenimax Online development team:

"It happens in the history of a game that decisions are made unintentionally; this can happen in the life of a massively multiplayer online game. We admit we made a mistake, and we want to apologize to the community.
That's why, starting with Update 75, subclassing will gradually disappear, but in return, we're offering each ESO player 10 free class change tokens and a free mount."

wolfie1.0. · May 25

For me, subclassing allows for better immersion not less.

What i have always found kind of dumb about a lot of RPGs and MMOs is that often the most important decisions about a character are made at the start of the game. And yes, class is the most important decision for a character. It is still the one choice that can not be changed after more than a decade.

Subclassing helps with this.

Also, subclassing allows for better rp for better flexibility.

The ONLY reason players dont like subclassing is because ZOS didn't do the thing they needed to do before releasing subclassing. They didn't balance the skill lines against each other and ignored players warnings regarding the topic.

Had they done so, it would have gone better.

tomofhyrule · May 25

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

The ONLY reason players dont like subclassing is because ZOS didn't do the thing they needed to do before releasing subclassing. They didn't balance the skill lines against each other and ignored players warnings regarding the topic.

Had they done so, it would have gone better.

This is completely true.

ZOS has had a long history of disregarding the players because they knew best... and then being surprised by the result. It's 100% the Principal Skinner "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong." That is one of the things that a lot of us are hoping is going to lessen with the new leadership team is that when people make points on PTS and back it up with data, that maybe it's not just "forum babies whining."

Here's an example. This is a post from someone in January 2024 (aka over a year before Subclassing was announced) in response to someone requesting ZOS to "Remove Classes. I've seen the suggestion before and over the last 6 months or so I've thought about it and really begun to felt it would bring a lot of life to the game. Here's the pitch: rather than picking a class when you make a new character, you instead pick 3 skill lines from the class themes." (aka exactly what we got with Subclassing)

Ph1p wrote: »

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

...
Does someone want to get the Oracle of Delphi on the phone? Because this is precisely what happened word-for-word. And now that the cat is out of the bag, we're getting a 2-year period of "balance patches become common" as every Class is refreshed one by one.

If ZOS, whose literal job it is to know how this game works, can't foresee a problem that random players can call out, that is a fundamental problem.

So yes, Subclassing is disliked because it was done in such a way that anyone with any experience with playing this game above a casual level could have seen coming, and yet nobody on the dev team was like "wait a minute..." And now, we're stuck in two full years of "What about new classes, new skill lines, new weapons, new races?
The team is in the middle of the class refresh, so these are out of scope for time being. Once we get through a good portion of these, we can get back to working on items like this. But they are things we would like to get to in the next few years," which means those of us who are dying to see a new Class (Artificer pls) get to wait until like 2028 at the earliest so the team can try to fix what Subclassing broke... whereas if they had just had Subclassing on their mind and then worked towards it from the beginning, then we wouldn't have two years of "everything's gonna change every three months while we fix one thing at a time!"

MaleAmazon · May 25

Here´s the thing:

Really, objectively, all subclassing does is open up the existing skill system. I play mostly BGs in PvP at the moment, and I can assure you that death recaps have the same skills and sets all the time, and while many are subclassed it´s not like this is a major departure as such. If there was no subclassing, you would still see the same things all the time, it would just be different skill combos. It used to be crystal frags crystal frags crystal frags endless fury, now it´s DK whip DK whip DK whip streak. Whatever.

Same for PvE. Subclass now required for the achievements that 0.01% of the population go for? Ok, but again not really different from years ago when all tanks had to be DKs and use the same skills, certain sets were required etc etc. Use the "wrong" skill morph? Kick.

Nihil novi sub sole.

Obviously if you give people more freedom you will see the power level of the most build copying knowledgeable theorycrafting players go up. This is the case for everything in the game, ever. Why let people make their own potions? Not everyone has the expensive ingredients. Alchemy skill line must be removed!

OP is OP, no matter where it comes from. People think subclassing is 'unfair'? Ok, but some people can get perfected sets because they are in a guild that can do vet trials (unfair). Some people have better addons (unfair). Some people have voice chat (unfair). Some people have played on PTS (unfair). Some people have online friends give them info on what sets are bugged so they can exploit that in PvP (unfair).

And so on ad infinitum.

Some subclass combos are very strong, yeah. Like has been said in this thread, that is a balance issue. Some skills are too strong and because you can now cherry pick them to complement your existing build, they become the sweatlord meta. It is quite possible that after skill adjustments and skill mastery being introduced, pure-class will be dominant.

wolfie1.0. · May 26

tomofhyrule wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

The ONLY reason players dont like subclassing is because ZOS didn't do the thing they needed to do before releasing subclassing. They didn't balance the skill lines against each other and ignored players warnings regarding the topic.

Had they done so, it would have gone better.

This is completely true.

ZOS has had a long history of disregarding the players because they knew best... and then being surprised by the result. It's 100% the Principal Skinner "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong." That is one of the things that a lot of us are hoping is going to lessen with the new leadership team is that when people make points on PTS and back it up with data, that maybe it's not just "forum babies whining."

Here's an example. This is a post from someone in January 2024 (aka over a year before Subclassing was announced) in response to someone requesting ZOS to "Remove Classes. I've seen the suggestion before and over the last 6 months or so I've thought about it and really begun to felt it would bring a lot of life to the game. Here's the pitch: rather than picking a class when you make a new character, you instead pick 3 skill lines from the class themes." (aka exactly what we got with Subclassing)

Ph1p wrote: »

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

...
Does someone want to get the Oracle of Delphi on the phone? Because this is precisely what happened word-for-word. And now that the cat is out of the bag, we're getting a 2-year period of "balance patches become common" as every Class is refreshed one by one.

If ZOS, whose literal job it is to know how this game works, can't foresee a problem that random players can call out, that is a fundamental problem.

So yes, Subclassing is disliked because it was done in such a way that anyone with any experience with playing this game above a casual level could have seen coming, and yet nobody on the dev team was like "wait a minute..." And now, we're stuck in two full years of "What about new classes, new skill lines, new weapons, new races?
The team is in the middle of the class refresh, so these are out of scope for time being. Once we get through a good portion of these, we can get back to working on items like this. But they are things we would like to get to in the next few years," which means those of us who are dying to see a new Class (Artificer pls) get to wait until like 2028 at the earliest so the team can try to fix what Subclassing broke... whereas if they had just had Subclassing on their mind and then worked towards it from the beginning, then we wouldn't have two years of "everything's gonna change every three months while we fix one thing at a time!"

They saw it, they would habe been blind not to. But their likely were forces at work beyond the dev teams control.that pressured them to release it anyway.

Lord_Hev · May 26

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

The ONLY reason players dont like subclassing is because ZOS didn't do the thing they needed to do before releasing subclassing. They didn't balance the skill lines against each other and ignored players warnings regarding the topic.

Had they done so, it would have gone better.

No. I completely hate it, this game launched with a class-based system and serves as the core and heart of it. It is so embedded that by zos' own admission the main reason they never offered class change tokens is because of how ingrained the class system is on a technical level.

The imbalance of subclassing is just more fuel to the fire. The balance issue being addressed doesn't change the permanency of a horrible decision that should have never been made in the first place.

Pinktraining · May 27

The problem isn't the subclassing itself, but the poor class balance. If ZOS had refreshed and balanced all classes before introducing subclasses, the subclasses wouldn't have caused such a severe imbalance.

Introducing subclasses under poor class balance will inevitably lead to bad results, just like bad food isn't caused by a bad chef or cooking method, but by the food itself being stale.

MRAW · May 27

Cooperharley wrote: »

I understand why some players dislike it, especially in organized trial groups where “optional” systems can start feeling mandatory. If a raid lead expects everyone to run the same subclassed setup, then yes, that can feel bad. But that is mostly a balance and community-meta problem, not a reason to remove the entire system from everyone.

That’s not a „problem“ at all. I actually want a raidlead to say exactly what player needs to play (which is very unlikely to be the same setup for every DD, because you might want banners, ZenKosh or the like).
I play tank main and even in a pug vet trial I will coordinate with the other tank what sets we would use.
If there is any problem it’s DD players who expect the support to provide all possible buffs but refuse to optimize their own builds because they want to „play as they want“. That’s selfish behavior and wasting other people time.

Gabriel_H · May 27

MRAW wrote: »

That’s not a „problem“ at all. I actually want a raidlead to say exactly what player needs to play (which is very unlikely to be the same setup for every DD, because you might want banners, ZenKosh or the like).

A competent DD will offer up various specs they are happy to use. Choice vs Imposed.

MRAW · May 27

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MRAW wrote: »

That’s not a „problem“ at all. I actually want a raidlead to say exactly what player needs to play (which is very unlikely to be the same setup for every DD, because you might want banners, ZenKosh or the like).

A competent DD will offer up various specs they are happy to use. Choice vs Imposed.

Those players you mention would not complain about subclasses though. I know these who do. Non of them I would consider a competent DD. They still use their OakenSorc which they haven’t changed the last 5 years and are not planning to change in the future, providing 15-20k dps in the raids.

moderatelyfatman · May 27

Wildberryjack · May 27

Or, now hear me out, if you don't like subclassing then don't subclass any of your characters. See how easy that is?

BXR_Lonestar · May 27

Tallon_IV wrote: »

How does something optional make people quit? I don't like subclassing either, so I just don't use it?

It's not that simple. If everyone was playing this game as a single player game where their experience doesn't effect anyone elses, that would work in theory, but the reality is that this is NOT a single player game, and nobody wants to play an artificially handicapped character. If you want to be competitive, you have to subclass.

Reworking the classes is designed to give you more incentive to stay pure-class, but WITHOUT addressing subclassing, each of the reworked classes are also going to be broken strong - meaning the game is just going to get more broken because they don't want to address what is REALLY broken - subclassing.

tomofhyrule · May 27

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Or, now hear me out, if you don't like subclassing then don't subclass any of your characters. See how easy that is?

Or, now hear me out, if you don’t like subclassing then you can’t play game modes where you are easily upstaged by the fact that subclassing is ludicrously OP so you actually have a chance when choosing not to subclass. Which bars you from PvP and group PvE.

So basically if you don’t want to subclass and don’t want to be memetically underpowered, you are not able to play anything except solo content. See what the problem is?

ElvenOverlord · May 28

Well your opinion on subclassing is subjective plus you don’t offer something as big as this and then just up and take it away. It’s to late for that

FlopsyPrince · May 28

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

I resisted subclassing for a long time, but recently used it to switch up my main NB, and I'm really enjoying the difference.

My take is simply this: IF subclassing were to ever be considered for removal, the whole game from somewhere just past Wrothgar up to Solstice would have to be massively rebalanced in terms of difficulty, even for group content.

I was initially waiting to see what class mastery would do, and at first it sounded like it would be better than subclassing; but more recent posts I've seen from those on the PTS server suggest that ZOS have walked it back and it may actually be underpowered now. I don't know if that's actually true, or what the final balance point will be on release of U50, but it seems very unlikely to me that ZOS wants class mastery to be a "subclassing killer".

In reality, subclassing is here to stay at this point, so calling for it to be removed is moot; it's probably more important to focus on whether class mastery makes it possible to balance pure class with subclass in terms of content viability.

Why would it need to be rebalanced? Wrothgar has been out a lot longer than subclassing.

I have only done it on one character (to have more pets) but it has not been all that compelling for me. But then I am not a lead player so I am clearly not the target audience.

MRAW · May 28

tomofhyrule wrote: »

, if you don’t like subclassing then you can’t play game modes where you are easily upstaged by the fact that subclassing is ludicrously OP so you actually have a chance when choosing not to subclass. Which bars you from PvP and group PvE.

I bet you could parse over 100k with a pure class arcanist (without being a professional) so that you could play group PvE. Most content is old so doesn’t require 150k dps.

In PvP, unless you duel, why would you not be able to play group content? Being a mediocre player myself, I still join Cyro groups or BGs and there are always much better players than me, both in my team and the enemy’s. I don’t feel like I am „barred“ from PvP just because I am not the biggest fish.

p.s.
even if you duel, you could see it as an additional challenge to win against a subclasser. It’s you decision not to „like“ a something the game offers you do why not make the best out of your decision

Treeshka · May 28

Do you guys really think they will rollback a major feature after all that time? They do not even do a server roll back for incidents.

LukosCreyden · May 28

Any raid lead that considers subclassing to be mandatory for their team is a really bad raid lead and needs to get good at the game.
Signed: pure-class enjoyer.

Ordinator199 · May 28

Xarc wrote: »

Imagine:

2030 - Zenimax Online development team:

"It happens in the history of a game that decisions are made unintentionally; this can happen in the life of a massively multiplayer online game. We admit we made a mistake, and we want to apologize to the community.
That's why, starting with Update 75, subclassing will gradually disappear, but in return, we're offering each ESO player 10 free class change tokens and a free mount."

A free mount? Ha, a one time coupon for 20% off crown pack is all you gonna get.

Ardriel · May 28

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Any raid lead that considers subclassing to be mandatory for their team is a really bad raid lead and needs to get good at the game.
Signed: pure-class enjoyer.

Seems that you're one of these people who claim that dps isn't important...
Why would a good raid lead sacrifice group damage just so a few DPS players can play a pure class? Right now, it's not possible to achieve the same dps output with pure classing as with subclassing.
Good raid leads from successful raid groups will always require their members to use the meta setup not only dps but also tanks and healers. The better the performance, the greater the chance of success. The meta setup will always provide the best performance. With Update 50, subclassing won't be meta any longer. So probably good raid leads will want everone to play the meta pure classes and get the best results with it. Let's hope you'll enjoy that.

Gabriel_H · May 28

Ardriel wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Any raid lead that considers subclassing to be mandatory for their team is a really bad raid lead and needs to get good at the game.
Signed: pure-class enjoyer.

Seems that you're one of these people who claim that dps isn't important...
Why would a good raid lead sacrifice group damage just so a few DPS players can play a pure class? Right now, it's not possible to achieve the same dps output with pure classing as with subclassing.
Good raid leads from successful raid groups will always require their members to use the meta setup not only dps but also tanks and healers. The better the performance, the greater the chance of success. The meta setup will always provide the best performance. With Update 50, subclassing won't be meta any longer. So probably good raid leads will want everone to play the meta pure classes and get the best results with it. Let's hope you'll enjoy that.

DPS to do the content is important. DPS to score push is ego.

What people continually don't seem to understand, despite whining about ZOS using spreadsheets, is that is exactly what the "meta" is. It's a maximum damage potential on paper. That doesn't mean it is achievable by all, aka performance & efficiency.

Performance and efficiency depend on the player. A player that doesn't like the build or the playstyle it confers they will not be as engaged or as attentive as they could be with a more enjoyable build. They can result in decreased performance and lower efficiency. Switching to a more suitable build could improve performance and push their dps higher (despite the build having a lower maximum potential) - but some RLs will outright say no and not allow a player to try it.

wolfie1.0. · May 28

Ardriel wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Any raid lead that considers subclassing to be mandatory for their team is a really bad raid lead and needs to get good at the game.
Signed: pure-class enjoyer.

Seems that you're one of these people who claim that dps isn't important...
Why would a good raid lead sacrifice group damage just so a few DPS players can play a pure class? Right now, it's not possible to achieve the same dps output with pure classing as with subclassing.
Good raid leads from successful raid groups will always require their members to use the meta setup not only dps but also tanks and healers. The better the performance, the greater the chance of success. The meta setup will always provide the best performance. With Update 50, subclassing won't be meta any longer. So probably good raid leads will want everone to play the meta pure classes and get the best results with it. Let's hope you'll enjoy that.

Honestly, if I were on the dungeon and trail design teams I would start making mechanics that regularly punish groups and raids for having too good of dps. Like some things that we haven't seen before.

For example if dps is over a threshold the boss loses taunt, and goes wild in the group. Or things like healing will also heal the boss.

maybe if a player gets a buff then the boss does too, and it stacks for each group member....

Maybe something like if you do too much dps then a invulnerable reflect phase occurs and it goes longer the better the dps is. So that if your too high you no longer can get a speed run...

Hmmm...

Ya probably good I dont work on that team I woild probably go evil.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · May 30

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Any raid lead that considers subclassing to be mandatory for their team is a really bad raid lead and needs to get good at the game.
Signed: pure-class enjoyer.

Seems that you're one of these people who claim that dps isn't important...
Why would a good raid lead sacrifice group damage just so a few DPS players can play a pure class? Right now, it's not possible to achieve the same dps output with pure classing as with subclassing.
Good raid leads from successful raid groups will always require their members to use the meta setup not only dps but also tanks and healers. The better the performance, the greater the chance of success. The meta setup will always provide the best performance. With Update 50, subclassing won't be meta any longer. So probably good raid leads will want everone to play the meta pure classes and get the best results with it. Let's hope you'll enjoy that.

Honestly, if I were on the dungeon and trail design teams I would start making mechanics that regularly punish groups and raids for having too good of dps. Like some things that we haven't seen before.

For example if dps is over a threshold the boss loses taunt, and goes wild in the group. Or things like healing will also heal the boss.

maybe if a player gets a buff then the boss does too, and it stacks for each group member....

Maybe something like if you do too much dps then a invulnerable reflect phase occurs and it goes longer the better the dps is. So that if your too high you no longer can get a speed run...

Hmmm...

Ya probably good I dont work on that team I woild probably go evil.

To some degree, this exactly. How do we eliminate meta? A dps cap. There are armor and crit caps and other things. Imagine if you lost score because mechs were eliminated by dps. Interesting perspective.