Lets get real on PVP

Demonwolff · May 25

Most of us can agree that the skill for PVP has evaporated. Most of the Players now are Meta Bullies or Unkillable healers and SPS junkies (force pulse gankers), basically "easy win button"
When we ask for a system that brings back Light attack weaving (LAW) and a system that eliminates Ball groups and Meta builds what we get is Vengeance! Great in theory failure in implementation. We don't need shields and heal absorbs we definitely don't need proc sets and none of us want to grind for agency in our builds.

this is easily fixed,
Role back the Medic Vanguard and Soldier lines so ball groups can not gain a footing.
Throw out the idea of activating Proc abilities and allow 4 line sets with no 5th line OR leave as no sets.
Introduce Ability morphs to allow for build agency
Place a limit on alliance numbers so that the landscape stays fair.
Keep Normal Cyrodiil alongside Vengeance so that you get a real read on what the players want.

These are basic requests. However I have previously stated I believe you are systematically dismantling PVP for future gains, Prove me wrong.

You cant tell me that you managed Mounted combat in a Trial but couldn't make morphs available in Vengeance lol.

If this a case of we put the effort into this this is what we are going with then stop the last week of PTS because you aren't listening to us and just own it.
The color of the train changed but the Track remains the same.(not my saying another well respected player said this to me)

Ban me if you want snip me if you must ill just do a Video on it with this post included.

Gabriel_H · May 25

Vengeance is still in development
They are keeping regular Cyro alongside Vengeance
PvP is, and always has been a misnomer in every MMO. It's GvG and in ESO's case AvA
Placing a player cap in Cyro based on least alliance is not workable.People will just stop playing. War isn't fair

Taarente · May 25

nostalgia, where would we be without it.

Demonwolff · May 25

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still in development

They are keeping regular Cyro alongside Vengeance

PvP is, and always has been a misnomer in every MMO. It's GvG and in ESO's case AvA

Placing a player cap in Cyro based on least alliance is not workable.People will just stop playing. War isn't fair

1) It WAS in development, Its now going live Flat and that's a fact.
2) they are not keeping regular Cyrodiil it will be Vengeance and Grey Host. That is not Cyrodiil. Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.
3) Player cap makes sense for a level field and Im not saying a full cap only a partial cap. Based on player available per faction and leveling the field.
4) I left the 3rd line for last because its likely the most ridiculous statement when you are referencing ESO. GvG isnt a thing here its Faction vs Faction, so stop that banter. AvA is accurate and as such means if you allow all 3 alliances a chance to play without the mob mentality you will have a much better PVP experience. I'm guessing you are part of a strong PVP guild and likely the Filthy AD kind, but I wont hold that against you, PVP isn't about or shouldn't be about bullying people its should be about the fun that comes from combat that has meaning and feel

Demonwolff · May 25

I'm not asking anyone to throw themselves on a sword here but if you agree then at then least throw up a like. We cant gain traction without the majority speaking.

Radiate77 · May 25

Adding non-stat proc sets to Vengeance will add build variety without destroying the balance of the system, and with health as high as it is in there, the effect of said proc sets will be significantly diminished, giving nothing but flavor to the experience through customization.

I am glad they are doing this next test.

Shields and Heal Absorption are also important mechanics that have a place in PvP, and I am also glad they are present.

As much as I would love population limiting for even maps; oftentimes you’ll find that even with the same population, people spread out and do their own thing, so in Cyrodiil, a keep fight with 3 bars on each faction will still not have an even number of players on each team.

Demonwolff · May 25

Radiate77 wrote: »

Adding non-stat proc sets to Vengeance will add build variety without destroying the balance of the system, and with health as high as it is in there, the effect of said proc sets will be significantly diminished, giving nothing but flavor to the experience through customization.

I am glad they are doing this next test.

Shields and Heal Absorption are also important mechanics that have a place in PvP, and I am also glad they are present.

As much as I would love population limiting for even maps; oftentimes you’ll find that even with the same population, people spread out and do their own thing, so in Cyrodiil, a keep fight with 3 bars on each faction will still not have an even number of players on each team.

As much as Id love to agree with your first statement we All know one equals all.
I'm not saying NO shields what I'm saying is stop the Ridiculousness that prevails now and if you want to get technical shields and heal absorbs would normally fall under a support class of healer NOT everyone in the group. Your argument while valid fails to address the issue.

olsborg · May 25

Still dont understand why they put proccs back into NOCP ravenwatch, yea it wasnt the most active campaign, but it was active during prime time, enough to have action atleast, but after they put proccs back there, its 100% dead. When ravenwatch was noprocc it was atleast way more skillbased then regular proccodiil GH

Gabriel_H · May 25

Demonwolff wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still in development

They are keeping regular Cyro alongside Vengeance

PvP is, and always has been a misnomer in every MMO. It's GvG and in ESO's case AvA

Placing a player cap in Cyro based on least alliance is not workable.People will just stop playing. War isn't fair

1) It WAS in development, Its now going live Flat and that's a fact.
2) they are not keeping regular Cyrodiil it will be Vengeance and Grey Host. That is not Cyrodiil. Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.
3) Player cap makes sense for a level field and Im not saying a full cap only a partial cap. Based on player available per faction and leveling the field.
4) I left the 3rd line for last because its likely the most ridiculous statement when you are referencing ESO. GvG isnt a thing here its Faction vs Faction, so stop that banter. AvA is accurate and as such means if you allow all 3 alliances a chance to play without the mob mentality you will have a much better PVP experience. I'm guessing you are part of a strong PVP guild and likely the Filthy AD kind, but I wont hold that against you, PVP isn't about or shouldn't be about bullying people its should be about the fun that comes from combat that has meaning and feel

1) They are still working on it
2) GH is still Cyrodiil
3) Still unworkable
4) Never been in a Battleground then? (You know, GvG, as opposed to IC & Cyro which is AvA as I said)

Edit: Oh and I don't play in a PvP guild. They are toxic places that breed more toxicity. Maybe if you didn't make presumptions based on flawed logic and incomplete information you'd find life is a little better than you think it is.

LennaTheRussian · May 25

Demonwolff wrote: »

Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.

Why? So they can stay dead 90% of the time like they currently do? They made way too many campaigns thinking there's enough pvp players to make them viable to keep.

Truth is that there's not enough pvp players left to keep those up, even GH is mostly dead mid day on a weekday.

JohnRingo · May 26

Demonwolff wrote: »

I'm not asking anyone to throw themselves on a sword here but if you agree then at then least throw up a like. We cant gain traction without the majority speaking.

Maybe few agree with you.

You say, "Most of the Players now are Meta Bullies or Unkillable healers and SPS junkies (force pulse gankers), basically "easy win button".

What equipment, build configurations, skills, etc. do they have access to that you do not? Slip on your "easy win button" build and go dominate. Join a ball group, if that's how you feel.

This honestly sounds more like a rage post than anything else constructive.

JustLovely · May 26

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.

Why? So they can stay dead 90% of the time like they currently do? They made way too many campaigns thinking there's enough pvp players to make them viable to keep.

Truth is that there's not enough pvp players left to keep those up, even GH is mostly dead mid day on a weekday.

Not on PC NA it's not. It's 2-3 bars mid day on weekdays.

JustLovely · May 26

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still in development

They are keeping regular Cyro alongside Vengeance

PvP is, and always has been a misnomer in every MMO. It's GvG and in ESO's case AvA

Placing a player cap in Cyro based on least alliance is not workable.People will just stop playing. War isn't fair

1) It WAS in development, Its now going live Flat and that's a fact.
2) they are not keeping regular Cyrodiil it will be Vengeance and Grey Host. That is not Cyrodiil. Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.
3) Player cap makes sense for a level field and Im not saying a full cap only a partial cap. Based on player available per faction and leveling the field.
4) I left the 3rd line for last because its likely the most ridiculous statement when you are referencing ESO. GvG isnt a thing here its Faction vs Faction, so stop that banter. AvA is accurate and as such means if you allow all 3 alliances a chance to play without the mob mentality you will have a much better PVP experience. I'm guessing you are part of a strong PVP guild and likely the Filthy AD kind, but I wont hold that against you, PVP isn't about or shouldn't be about bullying people its should be about the fun that comes from combat that has meaning and feel

1) They are still working on it
2) GH is still Cyrodiil
3) Still unworkable
4) Never been in a Battleground then? (You know, GvG, as opposed to IC & Cyro which is AvA as I said)

Edit: Oh and I don't play in a PvP guild. They are toxic places that breed more toxicity. Maybe if you didn't make presumptions based on flawed logic and incomplete information you'd find life is a little better than you think it is.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the PvP aspects of ESO. Speaking of "they're working on it"......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLS3ROGw_A

Keep in mind this video is almost 5 years old now. That's what we've been dealing with.

Vulkunne · May 26

Demonwolff wrote: »

Most of us can agree that the skill for PVP has evaporated. Most of the Players now are Meta Bullies or Unkillable healers and SPS junkies (force pulse gankers), basically "easy win button"
When we ask for a system that brings back Light attack weaving (LAW) and a system that eliminates Ball groups and Meta builds what we get is Vengeance! Great in theory failure in implementation. We don't need shields and heal absorbs we definitely don't need proc sets and none of us want to grind for agency in our builds.

this is easily fixed,
Role back the Medic Vanguard and Soldier lines so ball groups can not gain a footing.
Throw out the idea of activating Proc abilities and allow 4 line sets with no 5th line OR leave as no sets.
Introduce Ability morphs to allow for build agency
Place a limit on alliance numbers so that the landscape stays fair.
Keep Normal Cyrodiil alongside Vengeance so that you get a real read on what the players want.

These are basic requests. However I have previously stated I believe you are systematically dismantling PVP for future gains, Prove me wrong.

You cant tell me that you managed Mounted combat in a Trial but couldn't make morphs available in Vengeance lol.

If this a case of we put the effort into this this is what we are going with then stop the last week of PTS because you aren't listening to us and just own it.
The color of the train changed but the Track remains the same.(not my saying another well respected player said this to me)

Ban me if you want snip me if you must ill just do a Video on it with this post included.

I've been saying similar things for a while now. Eventually it reached a point where I started ducking fights cause there's no feasible means of defeating so many fast attacks and procs like super anim canceling and other things that once were the exception now are commonplace. People used to laugh at me for evading sometimes but now duck and hide is the rule, itself no longer the exception. The only victory possible is to deny the battle. Yeah, I know how it sounds but some of these guys hit so fast and I'll admit with certain builds the skill level is just so extreme there's no way for others to learn. Like I have no idea not how I died really but how I lost so much health so fast. It's absurd and that part of the community is a black out area because no one can deal with them. And they know it. Human beings with too much power stop acting like humans should.

Gabriel_H · May 26

JustLovely wrote: »

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the PvP aspects of ESO.

Yes, I understand it so little you decimated my points with expert logic, reasoning, examples, and counter-points. Oh wit, no you didn't. Must be my OP pointing out obvious reality skill. Nerf it!

JustLovely wrote: »

Keep in mind this video is almost 5 years old now. That's what we've been dealing with.

Keep in mind this video is almost 5 years old now.

LadyGP · May 26

olsborg wrote: »

Still dont understand why they put proccs back into NOCP ravenwatch, yea it wasnt the most active campaign, but it was active during prime time, enough to have action atleast, but after they put proccs back there, its 100% dead. When ravenwatch was noprocc it was atleast way more skillbased then regular proccodiil GH

How many people were only there while they were waiting for their GH queue o pop?

Sure, there were a handful of regs for each faction but most of the people I saw there were just waiting for the GH queue to pop.

BardokRedSnow · May 26

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still in development

They are keeping regular Cyro alongside Vengeance

PvP is, and always has been a misnomer in every MMO. It's GvG and in ESO's case AvA

Placing a player cap in Cyro based on least alliance is not workable.People will just stop playing. War isn't fair

1) It WAS in development, Its now going live Flat and that's a fact.
2) they are not keeping regular Cyrodiil it will be Vengeance and Grey Host. That is not Cyrodiil. Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.
3) Player cap makes sense for a level field and Im not saying a full cap only a partial cap. Based on player available per faction and leveling the field.
4) I left the 3rd line for last because its likely the most ridiculous statement when you are referencing ESO. GvG isnt a thing here its Faction vs Faction, so stop that banter. AvA is accurate and as such means if you allow all 3 alliances a chance to play without the mob mentality you will have a much better PVP experience. I'm guessing you are part of a strong PVP guild and likely the Filthy AD kind, but I wont hold that against you, PVP isn't about or shouldn't be about bullying people its should be about the fun that comes from combat that has meaning and feel

1) They are still working on it
2) GH is still Cyrodiil
3) Still unworkable
4) Never been in a Battleground then? (You know, GvG, as opposed to IC & Cyro which is AvA as I said)

Edit: Oh and I don't play in a PvP guild. They are toxic places that breed more toxicity. Maybe if you didn't make presumptions based on flawed logic and incomplete information you'd find life is a little better than you think it is.

They're not gonna hire you, bro.

PvP guilds are probably the least toxic of the pvpers around, in most cases if they let you in and its a pug guild, or pug friendly. Sweatier guilds exist sure, its the same as anything else. There's toxic pve guilds also, a lot more of them than pvp.

As for Vengeance, I dont care about it one way or another but "They're working on it" is a notorious statement in the eso community lol and not helpful here in a discussion. Not that they aren't, but it isn't something you can say here in a thread to shut people up especially.

BardokRedSnow · May 26

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still in development

They are keeping regular Cyro alongside Vengeance

PvP is, and always has been a misnomer in every MMO. It's GvG and in ESO's case AvA

Placing a player cap in Cyro based on least alliance is not workable.People will just stop playing. War isn't fair

1) It WAS in development, Its now going live Flat and that's a fact.
2) they are not keeping regular Cyrodiil it will be Vengeance and Grey Host. That is not Cyrodiil. Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.
3) Player cap makes sense for a level field and Im not saying a full cap only a partial cap. Based on player available per faction and leveling the field.
4) I left the 3rd line for last because its likely the most ridiculous statement when you are referencing ESO. GvG isnt a thing here its Faction vs Faction, so stop that banter. AvA is accurate and as such means if you allow all 3 alliances a chance to play without the mob mentality you will have a much better PVP experience. I'm guessing you are part of a strong PVP guild and likely the Filthy AD kind, but I wont hold that against you, PVP isn't about or shouldn't be about bullying people its should be about the fun that comes from combat that has meaning and feel

1) They are still working on it
2) GH is still Cyrodiil
3) Still unworkable
4) Never been in a Battleground then? (You know, GvG, as opposed to IC & Cyro which is AvA as I said)

Edit: Oh and I don't play in a PvP guild. They are toxic places that breed more toxicity. Maybe if you didn't make presumptions based on flawed logic and incomplete information you'd find life is a little better than you think it is.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the PvP aspects of ESO. Speaking of "they're working on it"......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLS3ROGw_A

Keep in mind this video is almost 5 years old now. That's what we've been dealing with.

Im glad someone else said it lol, yea "They're working on it" in a pvp discussion may as well be considered bait.

JustLovely · May 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still in development

They are keeping regular Cyro alongside Vengeance

PvP is, and always has been a misnomer in every MMO. It's GvG and in ESO's case AvA

Placing a player cap in Cyro based on least alliance is not workable.People will just stop playing. War isn't fair

1) It WAS in development, Its now going live Flat and that's a fact.
2) they are not keeping regular Cyrodiil it will be Vengeance and Grey Host. That is not Cyrodiil. Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.
3) Player cap makes sense for a level field and Im not saying a full cap only a partial cap. Based on player available per faction and leveling the field.
4) I left the 3rd line for last because its likely the most ridiculous statement when you are referencing ESO. GvG isnt a thing here its Faction vs Faction, so stop that banter. AvA is accurate and as such means if you allow all 3 alliances a chance to play without the mob mentality you will have a much better PVP experience. I'm guessing you are part of a strong PVP guild and likely the Filthy AD kind, but I wont hold that against you, PVP isn't about or shouldn't be about bullying people its should be about the fun that comes from combat that has meaning and feel

1) They are still working on it
2) GH is still Cyrodiil
3) Still unworkable
4) Never been in a Battleground then? (You know, GvG, as opposed to IC & Cyro which is AvA as I said)

Edit: Oh and I don't play in a PvP guild. They are toxic places that breed more toxicity. Maybe if you didn't make presumptions based on flawed logic and incomplete information you'd find life is a little better than you think it is.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the PvP aspects of ESO. Speaking of "they're working on it"......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLS3ROGw_A

Keep in mind this video is almost 5 years old now. That's what we've been dealing with.

Im glad someone else said it lol, yea "They're working on it" in a pvp discussion may as well be considered bait.

If they can't make Grey Host stable with a higher population then they can't create a new system from scratch that will work properly either. That's all anyone needs to know.

And since they've been telling us since forever they're working on normal live Cyrodiil, that's what they should have done and be doing going forward. Nothing else.

Taarente · May 26

honestly it’s hysterical people still think cyrodiil is an arena.

Demonwolff · May 27

JohnRingo wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

I'm not asking anyone to throw themselves on a sword here but if you agree then at then least throw up a like. We cant gain traction without the majority speaking.

Maybe few agree with you.

You say, "Most of the Players now are Meta Bullies or Unkillable healers and SPS junkies (force pulse gankers), basically "easy win button".

What equipment, build configurations, skills, etc. do they have access to that you do not? Slip on your "easy win button" build and go dominate. Join a ball group, if that's how you feel.

This honestly sounds more like a rage post than anything else constructive.

The point isn't having access the point is we don't want to play a meta when there are other fun builds that can be run on a level field. Not everyone plays because they have an ego and NEED to be the best, Many of us can handle a lose here and there without raging and quitting like the "top" players that bail when they are having adversity.

If you want real metrics then I suggest ZoS implement a system mail Poll, where each unique active account Can fill out the poll and then release the results. The reason this wont be done is because then we will KNOW what the majority want and they will be more heavily pressured to listen.

Not a rage post. Do I have some misgivings and frustration with a company that claims to be listening and yet continues to ignore the advice they receive? Yes.

Demonwolff · May 27

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still in development

They are keeping regular Cyro alongside Vengeance

PvP is, and always has been a misnomer in every MMO. It's GvG and in ESO's case AvA

Placing a player cap in Cyro based on least alliance is not workable.People will just stop playing. War isn't fair

1) It WAS in development, Its now going live Flat and that's a fact.
2) they are not keeping regular Cyrodiil it will be Vengeance and Grey Host. That is not Cyrodiil. Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.
3) Player cap makes sense for a level field and Im not saying a full cap only a partial cap. Based on player available per faction and leveling the field.
4) I left the 3rd line for last because its likely the most ridiculous statement when you are referencing ESO. GvG isnt a thing here its Faction vs Faction, so stop that banter. AvA is accurate and as such means if you allow all 3 alliances a chance to play without the mob mentality you will have a much better PVP experience. I'm guessing you are part of a strong PVP guild and likely the Filthy AD kind, but I wont hold that against you, PVP isn't about or shouldn't be about bullying people its should be about the fun that comes from combat that has meaning and feel

1) They are still working on it
2) GH is still Cyrodiil
3) Still unworkable
4) Never been in a Battleground then? (You know, GvG, as opposed to IC & Cyro which is AvA as I said)

Edit: Oh and I don't play in a PvP guild. They are toxic places that breed more toxicity. Maybe if you didn't make presumptions based on flawed logic and incomplete information you'd find life is a little better than you think it is.

Simmer down now. I was joking with that line... somewhat, when I said Filthy AD I thought that was evident. I don't have to address the rest, as many have told you we don't listen the "working on it" lines anymore.

Demonwolff · May 27

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.

Why? So they can stay dead 90% of the time like they currently do? They made way too many campaigns thinking there's enough pvp players to make them viable to keep.

Truth is that there's not enough pvp players left to keep those up, even GH is mostly dead mid day on a weekday.

Why do you think population fell off in those campaigns?

Ball groups and Proc sets and broken mythics made people crazy. the lag got ridiculous (to many calculations caused by?) But hey lets do the same to Vengeance.

Vulkunne · May 27

Demonwolff wrote: »

I'm not asking anyone to throw themselves on a sword here but if you agree then at then least throw up a like. We cant gain traction without the majority speaking.

I completely agree with your assessment. They ran people off.

BardokRedSnow · May 27

Demonwolff wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

Black reach and Ravenwatch should Accompany the launch.

Why? So they can stay dead 90% of the time like they currently do? They made way too many campaigns thinking there's enough pvp players to make them viable to keep.

Truth is that there's not enough pvp players left to keep those up, even GH is mostly dead mid day on a weekday.

Why do you think population fell off in those campaigns?

Ball groups and Proc sets and broken mythics made people crazy. the lag got ridiculous (to many calculations caused by?) But hey lets do the same to Vengeance.

Its really just the ballgroups tbh, when we had plaguebreak, hrothgars n chill and dark convergence added, it was at its most prociest state and the numbers were massive, player count was huge. It didnt stop until 1. Zos changed things to make people tankier like add minor resolve to vigor and 2. they nerfed sets that helped us fight ballgroups, and of course finally 3. Subclassing.

BardokRedSnow · May 27

They finally nerf ballgroups they'll improve the performance due to lag/people playing on older computers and cant handle the load, both issues simultaneously in most cases, and get rid of annoying immortal players that eat siege and run in circles till zerged.

Which just with the meager nerf to sticky heals we have now its already gotten easier to deal with ballgroups, but not easy enough.

DarkStrifeYT · May 27

I again vouch for the buff for magicka detonation and its morphs to ignore player resistances fully.

Gabriel_H · May 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

They're not gonna hire you, bro.

Why would they? I give them nothing but grief. Pointing out their mistakes, highlighting the obvious consequences they haven't thought about, berating them for broken systems.

I repeat: Maybe if you didn't make presumptions based on flawed logic and incomplete information you'd find life is a little better than you think it is.

Gabriel_H · May 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

They finally nerf ballgroups they'll improve the performance due to lag/people playing on older computers and cant handle the load

The load is on the servers, not the client. Clients on older hardware will see FPS drops (which can be mitigated by turning graphics settings all the way down). THe issue of lag on skills firing, positional differences, rubber banding and all the other performance issues are server side. There are too many calcs. Hence Vengeance with reduced calcs.

LPapirius · May 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

They finally nerf ballgroups they'll improve the performance due to lag/people playing on older computers and cant handle the load, both issues simultaneously in most cases, and get rid of annoying immortal players that eat siege and run in circles till zerged.

Which just with the meager nerf to sticky heals we have now its already gotten easier to deal with ballgroups, but not easy enough.

And now were back to the why hasn't ZOS tried limiting heal and shield stacking yet.

They're trying to say they can't do anything to improve performance so they can raise the population caps, but it looks more like their not even trying.

LPapirius · May 27

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

I again vouch for the buff for magicka detonation and its morphs to ignore player resistances fully.

That might not be a bad idea. And it wouldn't effect PvE because it would be a "to players only" restriction.