hard facts about wizards wardrobe breaking the add-on terms and CoC

spartaxoxo · May 13

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_Hadeostry @ZOS_Finn

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
id have to say a disadvantage is a burden on the player
made zos revert UI respec
so it has been and still is a burden on the game development / other players

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

automatic , 2500ms gear , skill , cp change id have to say that gives a BIG DISADVANTAGE in SPEED RUNS and leaderborads of trials
bypasses in game systems that blocks armory use in trials

please dont attack the poster attack the actions being put froth as this aint about my writing style this aint about me using AI , this is about a add-on thats been let to break the rules for away to long

Armory use is blocked in leaderboard content because it's a crown store paid purchase, therefore would be "pay to win". Add-ons, including Wizard's Wardrobe, are available to everyone[1] and are therefore not "pay to win". This is nothing new either, PC has had Dressing Room for years and it coexists fine with Armory.

[1] (Well, everyone on PC or modern consoles, but players insisting on hanging on to obsolete consoles is not ZOS's problem, PS4 is already sunsetting services for example so it's long past time to move off them if you care in the slightest about being competitive...)

if armry can be seen as PTW for being let into trials how is wizards not seen as cheat to win for being able to operate in trials ????

Because the wizards is free and therefore, by definition, not paid.

And they have not banned wizards and using an add-on that they have thus far allowed is not cheating.
.
The legal definition of a burden is a restriction placed on someone.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden

ZOS does not prevent ps4 users from entering trials without add-ons so no such burden is placed on players by Zenimax or the creators of the add-on. Unrelated 3rd parties placing social obligations on one another is not ZOS's responsibility to police. Players have freedom of association and can take anyone they want to trial, fair or not.

ZOS has to ensure both groups of players can enter the trial if they meet all the other requirements. And they do. Anyone who has reached a high enough level can enter a trial regardless of platform or add-on usage. They don't have to ensure that other people will want to play with you.

I agree that the leaderboard situation on console is not fair. But unfair and against the rules are not the same thing. There's plenty of things IRL that aren't fair but aren't illegal. Likewise in video games there are things that are not fair but do not violate the tos.

The situation older console players find themselves in is simply due to the nature lifecycle of hardware. Nothing lasts forever.

Reginald_leBlem · May 13

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_Hadeostry @ZOS_Finn

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
id have to say a disadvantage is a burden on the player
made zos revert UI respec
so it has been and still is a burden on the game development / other players

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

automatic , 2500ms gear , skill , cp change id have to say that gives a BIG DISADVANTAGE in SPEED RUNS and leaderborads of trials
bypasses in game systems that blocks armory use in trials

please dont attack the poster attack the actions being put froth as this aint about my writing style this aint about me using AI , this is about a add-on thats been let to break the rules for away to long

Armory use is blocked in leaderboard content because it's a crown store paid purchase, therefore would be "pay to win". Add-ons, including Wizard's Wardrobe, are available to everyone[1] and are therefore not "pay to win". This is nothing new either, PC has had Dressing Room for years and it coexists fine with Armory.

[1] (Well, everyone on PC or modern consoles, but players insisting on hanging on to obsolete consoles is not ZOS's problem, PS4 is already sunsetting services for example so it's long past time to move off them if you care in the slightest about being competitive...)

if armry can be seen as PTW for being let into trials how is wizards not seen as cheat to win for being able to operate in trials ????

Because armory and wizards ARE NOT THE SAME. Wizards can only move stuff around. It can't change your subclass, morph or unlock skills, change your mundas, change your attributes, etc. If you have gear in your inventory and skills and CP purchased it can move it all around for you. That is all.

Morvan · May 13

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Ah, forgot about the ticket confidentiality bit, my bad.

But uh, they seem to have not removed the addon or those functions in the API, so maybe that data point has bearing?

(Aside, the number of messages from support I have seen shared on this forum also seems more interesting now).

again they pick and choose when to enforce the rules

Not really a pick and choose thing when the rule you've been mentioning so much doesn't apply to UI automation.

it being in trials has nothing to do with its automated actions just the simple fact that it can be used AFTER the start of an trial ( SCORED CONTENT ) breaks the rules zos has set forth for trial activities

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

Just because you see it as an exploit it doesn't make it one. Again, Wizard's can't do anything the player can't do themselves, it just makes manual labour faster. Lazy Writs also does the same thing, and is also tied to a reward system, so if you're trying to picture WW as a rule break, then you need to add Lazy Writs to the bucket just the same.

That is, not to mention the other hundreds of UI automation add-ons, that are indirectly connected to reward systems one way or the other. lol

Reginald_leBlem · May 13

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

addons for eso are to be optional tools not mandatory tools so saying there is nothing wrong with a add-ons as they are available for all is wrong
if zos aollowed the armory and UI respec into trials then wizards would be seen as a optional tool with them being locked this makes wizards a mandatory tool

1) Wizards is not mandatory. I don't use it for trials. Too many addons makes my crappy cheap computer run too slow so I keep them to a minimum. I've successfully cleared multiple trifectas and all hardmodes without it, and I don't think a single raid lead has ever noticed or cared.
2) Wizards Wardrobe and the armory system do different things.

Morvan · May 13

This subject got repetitive and boring though, I'm better off debating against a wall.

Good luck.

Gabriel_H · May 13

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Ah, forgot about the ticket confidentiality bit, my bad.

But uh, they seem to have not removed the addon or those functions in the API, so maybe that data point has bearing?

(Aside, the number of messages from support I have seen shared on this forum also seems more interesting now).

again they pick and choose when to enforce the rules

Not really a pick and choose thing when the rule you've been mentioning so much doesn't apply to UI automation.

it being in trials has nothing to do with its automated actions just the simple fact that it can be used AFTER the start of an trial ( SCORED CONTENT ) breaks the rules zos has set forth for trial activities

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

As has been explained to you, the use of the addon is not an exploit, and abuse relates to score fixing.

Just_call_me_Cola · May 13

I think all add ons should be illegal.

frogthroat · May 13

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

In the previous conversation that was closed he was using AI to make his arguments for him. Without understanding what the answer was. At one point, his AI even scraped my answer to another person and responded to that person with my answer. Using AI as a tool is great. Using AI to outsource your thinking is making us argue against clankers.

Therefore, I have 0 trust in any of his posts that include anything from ToS, CoC, or any other official material. I just assume it's AI hallucination and skip it without reading.

Fair, I didn’t read the AI posts because I just don’t find reading AI to be comfortable. But on the point of “making us argue against clankers”… there’s no point in this argument at all. Really, we should all just pack up and go home. Heimdall’s not changing his opinion basically at all and I don’t mean to be dehumanizing or anything but he’s said it himself, he literally has brain damage, I don’t know how his brain works now but clearly none of this arguing is working. I know disabilities aren’t an excuse for the outcome of situations but like… it’s brain damage. I don’t know if he physically can change his opinion or not.

being i go off facts i know and then have AI help me its going to take more then just others words reason ive always said SHOW ME THE FACTS not belittle me dont bash me dont insult me FIGHT THE FACTS WITH FACTS NOT OPINIONS OR YOUR THOGHTS ON HOW SOMETHING DOES OR DOESNT WORK ... REASON IVE ALWAY GAVE TOS, COC, ADD-ON TERMS TO POINT OUT MY VIEWS

You keep talking about facts vs opinion. Yet fail continually to accept the fact that "burden" is not the same as "advantage" or that "abuse" is a direct action rather than a passive one. T&Cs and the like are legal documents. Some words have plain meanings and others have very strict and specific meanings.

You keep quoting Section 5 of the CoC, and refuse to accept it is not talking about addons, even though the header of that is "Security" and is clearly referring to hack tools and the like. It's talking about 3rd party software - which addons are NOT. ZOS owns all addons written for this game. They retain all copyright, but shield themselves from liability if it goes wrong. It's not 3rd party software.

And lastly, ZOS allow the use of API for the creation of addons, any conflict between the addon and other terms are resolved in the following order:

Except as set forth in this Section, if there is any conflict between the Terms of Service, a EULA and any Supplemental Terms, You acknowledge and agree that, for the purposes of the Add-on Terms of Use, the terms and conditions shall govern in the following order of precedence: (i) Terms of Service; (ii) the applicable EULA; (iii) the Add-on Terms of Use; and (iv) the applicable Code of Conduct.

i.e. Add-on terms supercede the CoC as noted in Section 3 of the AOT.

we can argrue meaning of words all day but the simple fact here is zos cant wright its own dictionary then lock it away so their meanings are hid , having something that give you an advantage over others can be seen as a burden to them you use that advantage against

It is clear for everyone except you. And I can't understand it for you.

SANGUARI · May 13

Lol, what’s your problem with addons? I genuinely would not play this game if my addons stopped working. ESO feels super sloppy without them, addons make the game actually bearable.

And the Wizard addon is basically a must. I am starting to suspect you have never even been near a leaderboard XD

OutLaw_Nynx · May 14

@ZOS_Hadeostry @ZOS_Icy this thread needs to be closed

Gabriel_H · May 14

SANGUARI wrote: »

And the Wizard addon is basically a must.

While I strongly disagree with the OP, I also strongly disagree with that statement. For most trials the time lost by not switching sets and skills is miniscule.

And here's the hilarious part: If people learned the mechs so as to not need addons, or the default game had better indicators for those with accessibility issues, you'd probably finish the trial faster - addons can add to the load time everytime you go through a door/portal.

heimdall14_9 · May 14

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

You keep using that word "exploit", but I don't think it means what you think it means.

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

i call it a exploit because thats what it is , it gives a undue advantage in LEADERBOARDS and SCORING so by its use is a exploit of both them system's

It's not an exploit.

For a brief period at launch (or maybe still on PTS?) a particular trial had a bug that you could bypass almost the whole trial, clip into the boss arena, and get the achievement for the clear. THAT was an exploit, it was reported and patched quickly and quietly.

If you don't like Wizards, use Dressing Room.

1st off its use is a exploit to leaderboards and speed runs as it gives a advantage to SCORING

2nd , the amount of time it takes to identify a exploit doesnt change that it was a exploit , look how long it took for them to change the " pig farm" or the banker with survey , didnt make eather of them not a exploit just means they took longer to be ponit out and understood

3rd dont like the add-ons gave to you use ones that aint ok great advice can zos then please give console ALL add-ons not just part of them .... oh wait that mean that PC add-ons hold an advantage over consloe add-ons wow great enforsement of making the game fair and equeal

1) "having an advantage" is not the same as having an unfair advantage. Let's say Team A and Team B both decide to complete the weekly trial, for arguments sake let's say its vAS. Team A has several people that haven't bought DLCs in a couple of years so they are missing some important sets, they have a tank who has never cleared +2, 2 dds that are an elderly married couple that both struggle with barswapping due to age, a healer with a terrible head cold, and a couple of people who have never ran with the team before. Team B has a solid group of 12 that play together 3 days a week, they just finished their MM prog and decided to take the night off and do a quick and easy poly farm for the weekly score.
On the leaderboards, Team B will have a huge ADVANTAGE over Team A. They have better gear, more experience playing together more experience playing the game, they are all in their 20s and 30s and no one has a cold.
These are all ADVANTAGES, and they are far more impactful than Wizards. Is this unfair? Should Zos ask players to fill out a questionnaire about their health, and monitor all gear before applying the leaderboard?
2) Valid point, but this isn't an exploit.
3) Console has access to many addons now, not sure exactly which but I'm sure by the time cross-platform play happens they will be caught up, and if not there will no doubt be some discussion over how best to handle it. But for now, console and PC DO NOT SHARE a leaderboard, so it's irrelevant.

Finally, Wizards Wardrobe is a FREE tool, that the creator shared openly with everyone. You CHOSING not to use it is YOU chosing to play at a minor disadvantage to yourself and to your team, just like people who play RP builds or use oakensoul this is your choice to make.

Throwing repeated tantrums on this subject after many people have explained to you this is not considered an exploit and not against TOS or CoC or any other rule in the game is another choice you are making. I would suggest you reevaluate some of your choices.

1) this provides nothing as team A is unopitimized and team B is opitimized thats not a in place disadvantage ( wizards ) that is simply not being ready to do said content as a optimized group to get best run possible
3) so you feel console players should have no say until after crossplay even tho there is no set date and there is console players playing the game already , they are to just except negative changes to a game they been playing for 10 years in hopes that once someday crossplay happens their game will be fixed .

wizards being free and open to all ,tho its free and open to all zos put froth rules that would insure that players wouldnt be forced to add out-side add-ons due to being at a disadvantage without them

showing that something is going against the add-on terms and CoC is a tantrum ???? just because the players defending it say its not this or that ive yet to see ZOS say it aint

You were provided evidence of that, which you chose to ignore.

what evidence has been shown??? only personal opinions have i seen.. im the only one to quote any facts by posting the ADD-ON terms of use and CoC that wizards is in violation of

The quote from the ZOS dev who interfaces and works directly with add-on devs, including clarifying what is and isn't allowed, and which is screenshotted in a spoiler tag on the first page.

that was about it being seen as automated game play not a burden on game development or player , nor about not effecting SCORE in speed runs so again no evidence has been gave to disprove those points

for all you saying i ignored the evidence gave to me here .. i didnt ignore anything i dismissed it because its talking about automated game play not abuse of scoring or about the burden thats placed on the players .. so again i DIDNT IGNORE IT I DISMISSED IT AS IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT MY POST IS ABOUT

ZOS_Kevin · May 14

Hi All, just wanted to follow up here. We want to reiterate that currently, we do not see an issue with Wizards Wardrobe and do not consider it breaking ToS. Our stance has not changed here. We have shared this before, but wanted to make sure we followed up here given the thread commentary.

Thank you for sharing your opinions about this add-on.