hard facts about wizards wardrobe breaking the add-on terms and CoC

JavaRen · 1:20AM

Eh? You are claiming a violation of the rules exists, why have you not reported it to the authorities? Or tagged any of the forum mods to bring attention to this issue?

Edit: where did I suggest violating the ToS?

heimdall14_9 · 1:29AM

JavaRen wrote: »

Eh? You are claiming a violation of the rules exists, why have you not reported it to the authorities? Or tagged any of the forum mods to bring attention to this issue?

Edit: where did I suggest violating the ToS?

look at my edit and look at top of main post i have 3 zos staff tagged

JavaRen · 1:33AM

Ah, forgot about the ticket confidentiality bit, my bad.

But uh, they seem to have not removed the addon or those functions in the API, so maybe that data point has bearing?

(Aside, the number of messages from support I have seen shared on this forum also seems more interesting now).

heimdall14_9 · 1:36AM

JavaRen wrote: »

Ah, forgot about the ticket confidentiality bit, my bad.

But uh, they seem to have not removed the addon or those functions in the API, so maybe that data point has bearing?

(Aside, the number of messages from support I have seen shared on this forum also seems more interesting now).

again they pick and choose when to enforce the rules

Reginald_leBlem · 4:02AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Ah, forgot about the ticket confidentiality bit, my bad.

But uh, they seem to have not removed the addon or those functions in the API, so maybe that data point has bearing?

(Aside, the number of messages from support I have seen shared on this forum also seems more interesting now).

again they pick and choose when to enforce the rules

The rules make it clear they have discretion to do JUST THAT.
If a cop pulls you over for a broken tail light but lets you off with a warning do you throw a tantrum and go to court demanding ALL drivers with broken taillights be given citations?

Psyphiman · 4:50AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Ah, forgot about the ticket confidentiality bit, my bad.

But uh, they seem to have not removed the addon or those functions in the API, so maybe that data point has bearing?

(Aside, the number of messages from support I have seen shared on this forum also seems more interesting now).

again they pick and choose when to enforce the rules

Rules are not always black and white. They require interpretation. For instance, in a courtroom the same law is argued from two sides and then a judge/jury has to make a final decision. Precedent is often a deciding factor. Based on precedent, it seems that addons like WW are not against the TOS. You can argue your side of the case, but ZOS is the judge/jury and they get to decide how to interpret the rules.

frogthroat · 5:33AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

im trying to tell zos to follow their ToS

There it is. You know what ZOS means better than ZOS.

But ok, let's assume all your misunderstandings of what is essentially a disclaimer are correct. Let's assume you not understanding what the word "approve" in said disclaimer means is correct. For the sake of an argument, let's assume everything you said is correct.

So what?

What does it change even if you would fool all of us to have as incorrect understanding of the rules? ZOS is still going to allow WW.

Gabriel_H · 6:02AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

The Bottom Line: You're arguing for "convenience," but I'm standing up for the integrity of the achievement. A "Godslayer" or a top leaderboard spot should be about who is the better player, not who has the most aggressive automation setup.

A Godslayer time requirement can be met with a mid-tier trial group not running WW with about 5 minutes to spare. The players who are doing it with 10 minutes to spare are not getting that because of WW.

before add-ons / subclass power creep top psn time was 28 minutes now with power creep and add-ons top times is 18 minutes at my last look/talk with raid guild , before power creep /subclassing pc times was 18 minutes now with power creep its 11-12 minutes so its hard to say was it the add-ons or the power creep of subclasssing ?????

Yes ... BEFORE power creep. It's the power creep, not the addon.

Sunspire was a very highly tuned trial for the then power levels as @code65536 noted above. That is no longer the case. Newer trials have a lot more leeway. People are not getting Godslayer with 10 minutes to spare because of addons.

thorwyn · 6:03AM

again they pick and choose when to enforce the rules

Yes they do. And they do so, because they can. And they can, because THEY are making the rules and THEY can decide when or when not to enforce those rules. They are not bound to their rules, you are.
If you think that something goes against the rules, you can bring it to their attention, which, I guess, you have done by now (and quite excessively I might add), but that's about it. So far, they have not banned the add on, which makes it safe to say that they disagree with your assessment. ZOS doesn't have to reply to you, make statements or discuss anything. They don't report to you.
And by the way, the fact the add on is still available might also be a hint that banning it would possibly result in losing a bit more subscriptions than the 16 you have to offer.

Gabriel_H · 6:12AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

THE FUNNY PART IS IVE SPOKEN ON WHY I USE AI TO HELP PUT THINGS IN PLACE FOR ME , YOUR JUST USING IT TO PICK A FIGHT WITH SOMEONE WHO WAS ASKED TO START USING AI TO MAKE MY POST MORE LEGIBLE AND EASYER TO UNDERSTAND AS MY PHYSICAL DISABILITY FROM BEING HIT IN THE HEAD BY 10 TON DRILLING BLOCKS

You are missing the point. It's not that you are using AI to write your posts, it's that AI is by design agreeing with your view, not because it is correct, but because it is your view. AI is designed to not disagree with the person using it.

So, if you ask AI: "Does xyz violate this CoC?" that is prompting AI to start from a point of presuming yes and then using bad definitons to give you the answer it thinks you want. It's why AI cannot be trusted.

You have multiple human beings, some of us with knowledge of how words are understood in legal language in things like T&Cs, ToS, CoC etc, all telling you that WW does not violate the any terms set by ZOS.

This includes me, who for full context:

Does not use WW
Does not like my raid team using WW
Does not want WW to be used in game
Does want trials designed so that gear/skill swapping is not necessary
Does want all aspects of a build locked when a trial starts

heimdall14_9 · 6:31AM

[

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

THE FUNNY PART IS IVE SPOKEN ON WHY I USE AI TO HELP PUT THINGS IN PLACE FOR ME , YOUR JUST USING IT TO PICK A FIGHT WITH SOMEONE WHO WAS ASKED TO START USING AI TO MAKE MY POST MORE LEGIBLE AND EASYER TO UNDERSTAND AS MY PHYSICAL DISABILITY FROM BEING HIT IN THE HEAD BY 10 TON DRILLING BLOCKS

You are missing the point. It's not that you are using AI to write your posts, it's that AI is by design agreeing with your view, not because it is correct, but because it is your view. AI is designed to not disagree with the person using it.

So, if you ask AI: "Does xyz violate this CoC?" that is prompting AI to start from a point of presuming yes and then using bad definitons to give you the answer it thinks you want. It's why AI cannot be trusted.

You have multiple human beings, some of us with knowledge of how words are understood in legal language in things like T&Cs, ToS, CoC etc, all telling you that WW does not violate the any terms set by ZOS.

This includes me, who for full context:

Does not use WW
Does not like my raid team using WW
Does not want WW to be used in game
Does want trials designed so that gear/skill swapping is not necessary
Does want all aspects of a build locked when a trial starts

i cant speak to how others may use it but i use it by talking out my ponits and having it use MY WORDS not look something up for me to say , it might add a point or two in while putting my WORDS into a format thats not all mixed thoutghts as i hop around in my head with what i say that to out put it comes out in ways others has said they cant understand sometimes due to mistakes in words , misspelled words( as ill add in letters or miss putting some in totally ), halfthoughts that cut in and out making my points un-clear .. BUT AGAIN I SPEAK WITH A MIC WHAT IM THINKING AND IT USING MY OWN WORDS PUTS IT INTO A READABLE FORMAT , yes at times its taken liberty to add in a point or two ( some really not on point theres times i have to tell it to cut X or Y out as its not right , but then again like ive said before thats my responsibility to do as at the end of the day i put text into the post box and hit send

Soarora · 7:24AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

THE FUNNY PART IS IVE SPOKEN ON WHY I USE AI TO HELP PUT THINGS IN PLACE FOR ME , YOUR JUST USING IT TO PICK A FIGHT WITH SOMEONE WHO WAS ASKED TO START USING AI TO MAKE MY POST MORE LEGIBLE AND EASYER TO UNDERSTAND AS MY PHYSICAL DISABILITY FROM BEING HIT IN THE HEAD BY 10 TON DRILLING BLOCKS

You are missing the point. It's not that you are using AI to write your posts, it's that AI is by design agreeing with your view, not because it is correct, but because it is your view. AI is designed to not disagree with the person using it.

So, if you ask AI: "Does xyz violate this CoC?" that is prompting AI to start from a point of presuming yes and then using bad definitons to give you the answer it thinks you want. It's why AI cannot be trusted.

You have multiple human beings, some of us with knowledge of how words are understood in legal language in things like T&Cs, ToS, CoC etc, all telling you that WW does not violate the any terms set by ZOS.

This includes me, who for full context:

Does not use WW
Does not like my raid team using WW
Does not want WW to be used in game
Does want trials designed so that gear/skill swapping is not necessary
Does want all aspects of a build locked when a trial starts

I don't think he's using AI to have a conversation with it. He's using it to reformat his thoughts because someone gave him the suggestion to use AI to be more readable. Is AI hallucination bad? Yes. But I also don't think AI agreeing with him is relevant here when he'd have the same opinion regardless. I still much prefer the non-AI comments but there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

frogthroat · 7:34AM

Soarora wrote: »

there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

In the previous conversation that was closed he was using AI to make his arguments for him. Without understanding what the answer was. At one point, his AI even scraped my answer to another person and responded to that person with my answer. Using AI as a tool is great. Using AI to outsource your thinking is making us argue against clankers.

Therefore, I have 0 trust in any of his posts that include anything from ToS, CoC, or any other official material. I just assume it's AI hallucination and skip it without reading.

Soarora · 7:47AM

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

In the previous conversation that was closed he was using AI to make his arguments for him. Without understanding what the answer was. At one point, his AI even scraped my answer to another person and responded to that person with my answer. Using AI as a tool is great. Using AI to outsource your thinking is making us argue against clankers.

Therefore, I have 0 trust in any of his posts that include anything from ToS, CoC, or any other official material. I just assume it's AI hallucination and skip it without reading.

Fair, I didn’t read the AI posts because I just don’t find reading AI to be comfortable. But on the point of “making us argue against clankers”… there’s no point in this argument at all. Really, we should all just pack up and go home. Heimdall’s not changing his opinion basically at all and I don’t mean to be dehumanizing or anything but he’s said it himself, he literally has brain damage, I don’t know how his brain works now but clearly none of this arguing is working. I know disabilities aren’t an excuse for the outcome of situations but like… it’s brain damage. I don’t know if he physically can change his opinion or not.

heimdall14_9 · 7:57AM

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

In the previous conversation that was closed he was using AI to make his arguments for him. Without understanding what the answer was. At one point, his AI even scraped my answer to another person and responded to that person with my answer. Using AI as a tool is great. Using AI to outsource your thinking is making us argue against clankers.

Therefore, I have 0 trust in any of his posts that include anything from ToS, CoC, or any other official material. I just assume it's AI hallucination and skip it without reading.

Fair, I didn’t read the AI posts because I just don’t find reading AI to be comfortable. But on the point of “making us argue against clankers”… there’s no point in this argument at all. Really, we should all just pack up and go home. Heimdall’s not changing his opinion basically at all and I don’t mean to be dehumanizing or anything but he’s said it himself, he literally has brain damage, I don’t know how his brain works now but clearly none of this arguing is working. I know disabilities aren’t an excuse for the outcome of situations but like… it’s brain damage. I don’t know if he physically can change his opinion or not.

being i go off facts i know and then have AI help me its going to take more then just others words reason ive always said SHOW ME THE FACTS not belittle me dont bash me dont insult me FIGHT THE FACTS WITH FACTS NOT OPINIONS OR YOUR THOGHTS ON HOW SOMETHING DOES OR DOESNT WORK ... REASON IVE ALWAY GAVE TOS, COC, ADD-ON TERMS TO POINT OUT MY VIEWS

Gabriel_H · 8:09AM

Soarora wrote: »

I don't think he's using AI to have a conversation with it. He's using it to reformat his thoughts because someone gave him the suggestion to use AI to be more readable. Is AI hallucination bad? Yes. But I also don't think AI agreeing with him is relevant here when he'd have the same opinion regardless. I still much prefer the non-AI comments but there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

It doesn't matter whether it is conversational or to reformat his thoughts, the AI will re-inforce his view, even if it is wrong. IT acts as a sub-conscious validation of his argument.

frogthroat · 8:17AM

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

In the previous conversation that was closed he was using AI to make his arguments for him. Without understanding what the answer was. At one point, his AI even scraped my answer to another person and responded to that person with my answer. Using AI as a tool is great. Using AI to outsource your thinking is making us argue against clankers.

Therefore, I have 0 trust in any of his posts that include anything from ToS, CoC, or any other official material. I just assume it's AI hallucination and skip it without reading.

Fair, I didn’t read the AI posts because I just don’t find reading AI to be comfortable. But on the point of “making us argue against clankers”… there’s no point in this argument at all. Really, we should all just pack up and go home. Heimdall’s not changing his opinion basically at all and I don’t mean to be dehumanizing or anything but he’s said it himself, he literally has brain damage, I don’t know how his brain works now but clearly none of this arguing is working. I know disabilities aren’t an excuse for the outcome of situations but like… it’s brain damage. I don’t know if he physically can change his opinion or not.

Or he might be just stubborn. We don't know and it's not our place to speculate. If the argument is his, even when AI formatted, nothing wrong with that.

Gabriel_H · 8:20AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

In the previous conversation that was closed he was using AI to make his arguments for him. Without understanding what the answer was. At one point, his AI even scraped my answer to another person and responded to that person with my answer. Using AI as a tool is great. Using AI to outsource your thinking is making us argue against clankers.

Therefore, I have 0 trust in any of his posts that include anything from ToS, CoC, or any other official material. I just assume it's AI hallucination and skip it without reading.

Fair, I didn’t read the AI posts because I just don’t find reading AI to be comfortable. But on the point of “making us argue against clankers”… there’s no point in this argument at all. Really, we should all just pack up and go home. Heimdall’s not changing his opinion basically at all and I don’t mean to be dehumanizing or anything but he’s said it himself, he literally has brain damage, I don’t know how his brain works now but clearly none of this arguing is working. I know disabilities aren’t an excuse for the outcome of situations but like… it’s brain damage. I don’t know if he physically can change his opinion or not.

being i go off facts i know and then have AI help me its going to take more then just others words reason ive always said SHOW ME THE FACTS not belittle me dont bash me dont insult me FIGHT THE FACTS WITH FACTS NOT OPINIONS OR YOUR THOGHTS ON HOW SOMETHING DOES OR DOESNT WORK ... REASON IVE ALWAY GAVE TOS, COC, ADD-ON TERMS TO POINT OUT MY VIEWS

You keep talking about facts vs opinion. Yet fail continually to accept the fact that "burden" is not the same as "advantage" or that "abuse" is a direct action rather than a passive one. T&Cs and the like are legal documents. Some words have plain meanings and others have very strict and specific meanings.

You keep quoting Section 5 of the CoC, and refuse to accept it is not talking about addons, even though the header of that is "Security" and is clearly referring to hack tools and the like. It's talking about 3rd party software - which addons are NOT. ZOS owns all addons written for this game. They retain all copyright, but shield themselves from liability if it goes wrong. It's not 3rd party software.

And lastly, ZOS allow the use of API for the creation of addons, any conflict between the addon and other terms are resolved in the following order:

Except as set forth in this Section, if there is any conflict between the Terms of Service, a EULA and any Supplemental Terms, You acknowledge and agree that, for the purposes of the Add-on Terms of Use, the terms and conditions shall govern in the following order of precedence: (i) Terms of Service; (ii) the applicable EULA; (iii) the Add-on Terms of Use; and (iv) the applicable Code of Conduct.

i.e. Add-on terms supercede the CoC as noted in Section 3 of the AOT.

ajkb78 · 12:35PM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_Hadeostry @ZOS_Finn

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
id have to say a disadvantage is a burden on the player
made zos revert UI respec
so it has been and still is a burden on the game development / other players

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

automatic , 2500ms gear , skill , cp change id have to say that gives a BIG DISADVANTAGE in SPEED RUNS and leaderborads of trials
bypasses in game systems that blocks armory use in trials

please dont attack the poster attack the actions being put froth as this aint about my writing style this aint about me using AI , this is about a add-on thats been let to break the rules for away to long

Armory use is blocked in leaderboard content because it's a crown store paid purchase, therefore would be "pay to win". Add-ons, including Wizard's Wardrobe, are available to everyone[1] and are therefore not "pay to win". This is nothing new either, PC has had Dressing Room for years and it coexists fine with Armory.

[1] (Well, everyone on PC or modern consoles, but players insisting on hanging on to obsolete consoles is not ZOS's problem, PS4 is already sunsetting services for example so it's long past time to move off them if you care in the slightest about being competitive...)

ajkb78 · 12:43PM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Maitsukas wrote: »

What does glitching out of bounds in a Trial and then avoiding trash packs classify as to you?

id see it the same as they did with doing VAS+3 out-side the gates A EXPLOIT

Anyone doing VAS+3 is definitely exploiting something however they do it, because where has the extra boss come from? ;-)

That was well established with the Dromathra Destroyer incident years and years ago. It was judged as an exploit because it was obviously not intended and obviously being exploited.

It's completely different to using an API as intended and 100% in line with existing practice from PC. There is no disadvantage to anyone when a thing is available to anyone to use. For those complaining about WW, just save your breath and use it. I might as well complain that it's not fair that I can't achieve top ranking on the leaderboard because I don't want to use trial gear. Fine, that's my choice, but trial gear is available to all and part of the game design meta, and so people who do use it will get an (entirely fair) advantage. In exactly the same way, the APIs that WW uses are an intended part of the game design, so people who use such add-ons will also get an (entirely fair) advantage in content where gear switching is useful.

If it's any consolation WW is no help at all in VAS+2 or VCR+3 anyway...

Morvan · 1:01PM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Ah, forgot about the ticket confidentiality bit, my bad.

But uh, they seem to have not removed the addon or those functions in the API, so maybe that data point has bearing?

(Aside, the number of messages from support I have seen shared on this forum also seems more interesting now).

again they pick and choose when to enforce the rules

Not really a pick and choose thing when the rule you've been mentioning so much doesn't apply to UI automation.

tomofhyrule · 1:59PM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

A Godslayer time requirement can be met with a mid-tier trial group not running WW with about 5 minutes to spare. The players who are doing it with 10 minutes to spare are not getting that because of WW.

Well, back when Sunspire was new and we didn't have today's power levels, coming in under that 30 minute mark was legitimately hard. In the Council of Raiders (a feedback group of players who communicated directly with Finn), the people from console specifically pointed out that one of the biggest reasons why nobody console had gotten Godslayer yet was the lack of Dressing Room (which was the premiere gear swap addon back in those days). They could swap manually, which takes time, or they could not swap, and lose time due to less optimized setups.

These players from console never suggested that these addons should be restricted on PC. What they wanted was the same capability on console, and they were also expressing their concern about just how tight the time requirements were back in the days of 2019 power levels. Despite this being communicated directly to the person in charge of trials content at ZOS, no action of any sort was taken (no action against the use of addons on PC, no action to facilitate swaps on console, and no action regarding the time constraint), and as players got better and power levels crept up, this problem with Sunspire just naturally faded away.

I think it is still a problem for PS4/Xbox users (idk for sure as I upgraded long ago but OP is not the first I've heard of these types of complaints but I'm not an elite raider) but they're slowly and silently upgrading their hardware or quitting. Very few console players post on the forums (PC is already a small percentage of its population and I'd bet money the console total install base vs active forum user ratio is even worse).

The problem here is that PS4/XB1/Old PC hardware is obsolete by this point, and continuing to cater to outdated hardware is going to be a problem in the long run. After all, we're approaching the end of the PS5/XBX era by now.

I get that the economy is what it is, but the fact remains that the last-gen consoles only have 8GB RAM to run their games, half of which is used to run the OS. ZOS has directly said numerous times that memory issues are the reasons that they can't add new things like animations or increased housing limits, and the recent animation pass was designed to optimize things for older hardware (and there are two threads on the front page along complaining about how the animations are broken).

Eventually ZOS will need to cut support for old-gen hardware if they intend to keep growing the game. Tying everything's hands up to make it accessible for obsolete hardware will only make the other end quit.

spartaxoxo · 3:02PM

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

A Godslayer time requirement can be met with a mid-tier trial group not running WW with about 5 minutes to spare. The players who are doing it with 10 minutes to spare are not getting that because of WW.

Well, back when Sunspire was new and we didn't have today's power levels, coming in under that 30 minute mark was legitimately hard. In the Council of Raiders (a feedback group of players who communicated directly with Finn), the people from console specifically pointed out that one of the biggest reasons why nobody console had gotten Godslayer yet was the lack of Dressing Room (which was the premiere gear swap addon back in those days). They could swap manually, which takes time, or they could not swap, and lose time due to less optimized setups.

These players from console never suggested that these addons should be restricted on PC. What they wanted was the same capability on console, and they were also expressing their concern about just how tight the time requirements were back in the days of 2019 power levels. Despite this being communicated directly to the person in charge of trials content at ZOS, no action of any sort was taken (no action against the use of addons on PC, no action to facilitate swaps on console, and no action regarding the time constraint), and as players got better and power levels crept up, this problem with Sunspire just naturally faded away.

I think it is still a problem for PS4/Xbox users (idk for sure as I upgraded long ago but OP is not the first I've heard of these types of complaints but I'm not an elite raider) but they're slowly and silently upgrading their hardware or quitting. Very few console players post on the forums (PC is already a small percentage of its population and I'd bet money the console total install base vs active forum user ratio is even worse).

The problem here is that PS4/XB1/Old PC hardware is obsolete by this point, and continuing to cater to outdated hardware is going to be a problem in the long run. After all, we're approaching the end of the PS5/XBX era by now.

I get that the economy is what it is, but the fact remains that the last-gen consoles only have 8GB RAM to run their games, half of which is used to run the OS. ZOS has directly said numerous times that memory issues are the reasons that they can't add new things like animations or increased housing limits, and the recent animation pass was designed to optimize things for older hardware (and there are two threads on the front page along complaining about how the animations are broken).

Eventually ZOS will need to cut support for old-gen hardware if they intend to keep growing the game. Tying everything's hands up to make it accessible for obsolete hardware will only make the other end quit.

Older gen consoles aren't obsolete for this game as long they continue to take and rely on those users money.

It would not hold anyone else back to do things to improve the UI. So, this is a problem they could easily tackle without causing anyone else issues. Releasing a free version of the armory assistant that doesn't retain the mundus, curses, or skills, for example, would be enough to make that functionality base game and fair for all.

There's a fair argument they should be considering sunsetting support for older gen consoles but it doesn't really apply to anything I've said. Although, I would agree that the only reason console leaderboard environment is unfair competitively is that they are still supporting older gen consoles. So, you have a fair point about OP's suggestion which I also do not agree with.

heimdall14_9 · 5:00PM

Morvan wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Ah, forgot about the ticket confidentiality bit, my bad.

But uh, they seem to have not removed the addon or those functions in the API, so maybe that data point has bearing?

(Aside, the number of messages from support I have seen shared on this forum also seems more interesting now).

again they pick and choose when to enforce the rules

Not really a pick and choose thing when the rule you've been mentioning so much doesn't apply to UI automation.

it being in trials has nothing to do with its automated actions just the simple fact that it can be used AFTER the start of an trial ( SCORED CONTENT ) breaks the rules zos has set forth for trial activities

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

heimdall14_9 · 5:16PM

ajkb78 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Maitsukas wrote: »

What does glitching out of bounds in a Trial and then avoiding trash packs classify as to you?

id see it the same as they did with doing VAS+3 out-side the gates A EXPLOIT

Anyone doing VAS+3 is definitely exploiting something however they do it, because where has the extra boss come from? ;-)

That was well established with the Dromathra Destroyer incident years and years ago. It was judged as an exploit because it was obviously not intended and obviously being exploited.

It's completely different to using an API as intended and 100% in line with existing practice from PC. There is no disadvantage to anyone when a thing is available to anyone to use. For those complaining about WW, just save your breath and use it. I might as well complain that it's not fair that I can't achieve top ranking on the leaderboard because I don't want to use trial gear. Fine, that's my choice, but trial gear is available to all and part of the game design meta, and so people who do use it will get an (entirely fair) advantage. In exactly the same way, the APIs that WW uses are an intended part of the game design, so people who use such add-ons will also get an (entirely fair) advantage in content where gear switching is useful.

If it's any consolation WW is no help at all in VAS+2 or VCR+3 anyway...

you are right in my state of mind lastnight i put VAS+3 WHEN IN FCT IS +2 , I MUST OF JUST COUNTED THE BOSSES AND PUT +3 MY BAD AND WRONG , THO ONLY HUMAN EVEN WE MAKE MISTAKES

heimdall14_9 · 5:19PM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

In the previous conversation that was closed he was using AI to make his arguments for him. Without understanding what the answer was. At one point, his AI even scraped my answer to another person and responded to that person with my answer. Using AI as a tool is great. Using AI to outsource your thinking is making us argue against clankers.

Therefore, I have 0 trust in any of his posts that include anything from ToS, CoC, or any other official material. I just assume it's AI hallucination and skip it without reading.

Fair, I didn’t read the AI posts because I just don’t find reading AI to be comfortable. But on the point of “making us argue against clankers”… there’s no point in this argument at all. Really, we should all just pack up and go home. Heimdall’s not changing his opinion basically at all and I don’t mean to be dehumanizing or anything but he’s said it himself, he literally has brain damage, I don’t know how his brain works now but clearly none of this arguing is working. I know disabilities aren’t an excuse for the outcome of situations but like… it’s brain damage. I don’t know if he physically can change his opinion or not.

being i go off facts i know and then have AI help me its going to take more then just others words reason ive always said SHOW ME THE FACTS not belittle me dont bash me dont insult me FIGHT THE FACTS WITH FACTS NOT OPINIONS OR YOUR THOGHTS ON HOW SOMETHING DOES OR DOESNT WORK ... REASON IVE ALWAY GAVE TOS, COC, ADD-ON TERMS TO POINT OUT MY VIEWS

You keep talking about facts vs opinion. Yet fail continually to accept the fact that "burden" is not the same as "advantage" or that "abuse" is a direct action rather than a passive one. T&Cs and the like are legal documents. Some words have plain meanings and others have very strict and specific meanings.

You keep quoting Section 5 of the CoC, and refuse to accept it is not talking about addons, even though the header of that is "Security" and is clearly referring to hack tools and the like. It's talking about 3rd party software - which addons are NOT. ZOS owns all addons written for this game. They retain all copyright, but shield themselves from liability if it goes wrong. It's not 3rd party software.

And lastly, ZOS allow the use of API for the creation of addons, any conflict between the addon and other terms are resolved in the following order:

Except as set forth in this Section, if there is any conflict between the Terms of Service, a EULA and any Supplemental Terms, You acknowledge and agree that, for the purposes of the Add-on Terms of Use, the terms and conditions shall govern in the following order of precedence: (i) Terms of Service; (ii) the applicable EULA; (iii) the Add-on Terms of Use; and (iv) the applicable Code of Conduct.

i.e. Add-on terms supercede the CoC as noted in Section 3 of the AOT.

we can argrue meaning of words all day but the simple fact here is zos cant wright its own dictionary then lock it away so their meanings are hid , having something that give you an advantage over others can be seen as a burden to them you use that advantage against

Reginald_leBlem · 5:23PM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

there's a difference between using AI as a tool and using AI for validation.

In the previous conversation that was closed he was using AI to make his arguments for him. Without understanding what the answer was. At one point, his AI even scraped my answer to another person and responded to that person with my answer. Using AI as a tool is great. Using AI to outsource your thinking is making us argue against clankers.

Therefore, I have 0 trust in any of his posts that include anything from ToS, CoC, or any other official material. I just assume it's AI hallucination and skip it without reading.

Fair, I didn’t read the AI posts because I just don’t find reading AI to be comfortable. But on the point of “making us argue against clankers”… there’s no point in this argument at all. Really, we should all just pack up and go home. Heimdall’s not changing his opinion basically at all and I don’t mean to be dehumanizing or anything but he’s said it himself, he literally has brain damage, I don’t know how his brain works now but clearly none of this arguing is working. I know disabilities aren’t an excuse for the outcome of situations but like… it’s brain damage. I don’t know if he physically can change his opinion or not.

being i go off facts i know and then have AI help me its going to take more then just others words reason ive always said SHOW ME THE FACTS not belittle me dont bash me dont insult me FIGHT THE FACTS WITH FACTS NOT OPINIONS OR YOUR THOGHTS ON HOW SOMETHING DOES OR DOESNT WORK ... REASON IVE ALWAY GAVE TOS, COC, ADD-ON TERMS TO POINT OUT MY VIEWS

You keep talking about facts vs opinion. Yet fail continually to accept the fact that "burden" is not the same as "advantage" or that "abuse" is a direct action rather than a passive one. T&Cs and the like are legal documents. Some words have plain meanings and others have very strict and specific meanings.

You keep quoting Section 5 of the CoC, and refuse to accept it is not talking about addons, even though the header of that is "Security" and is clearly referring to hack tools and the like. It's talking about 3rd party software - which addons are NOT. ZOS owns all addons written for this game. They retain all copyright, but shield themselves from liability if it goes wrong. It's not 3rd party software.

And lastly, ZOS allow the use of API for the creation of addons, any conflict between the addon and other terms are resolved in the following order:

Except as set forth in this Section, if there is any conflict between the Terms of Service, a EULA and any Supplemental Terms, You acknowledge and agree that, for the purposes of the Add-on Terms of Use, the terms and conditions shall govern in the following order of precedence: (i) Terms of Service; (ii) the applicable EULA; (iii) the Add-on Terms of Use; and (iv) the applicable Code of Conduct.

i.e. Add-on terms supercede the CoC as noted in Section 3 of the AOT.

we can argrue meaning of words all day but the simple fact here is zos cant wright its own dictionary then lock it away so their meanings are hid , having something that give you an advantage over others can be seen as a burden to them you use that advantage against

Has it occurred to you that YOU might be wrong about the meaning? Everyone else understands this perfectly. You are the ONLY ONE interpreting it differently

heimdall14_9 · 5:23PM

ajkb78 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_Hadeostry @ZOS_Finn

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
id have to say a disadvantage is a burden on the player
made zos revert UI respec
so it has been and still is a burden on the game development / other players

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

automatic , 2500ms gear , skill , cp change id have to say that gives a BIG DISADVANTAGE in SPEED RUNS and leaderborads of trials
bypasses in game systems that blocks armory use in trials

please dont attack the poster attack the actions being put froth as this aint about my writing style this aint about me using AI , this is about a add-on thats been let to break the rules for away to long

Armory use is blocked in leaderboard content because it's a crown store paid purchase, therefore would be "pay to win". Add-ons, including Wizard's Wardrobe, are available to everyone[1] and are therefore not "pay to win". This is nothing new either, PC has had Dressing Room for years and it coexists fine with Armory.

[1] (Well, everyone on PC or modern consoles, but players insisting on hanging on to obsolete consoles is not ZOS's problem, PS4 is already sunsetting services for example so it's long past time to move off them if you care in the slightest about being competitive...)

if armry can be seen as PTW for being let into trials how is wizards not seen as cheat to win for being able to operate in trials ????

JavaRen · 5:27PM

For something to qualify as X to Y it must be X and lead to Y. So using an allowed addon for it's intended purpose cannot be "cheat to win" because it isn't cheating of any kind. Glad I could clear this one up.

heimdall14_9 · 5:30PM

addons for eso are to be optional tools not mandatory tools so saying there is nothing wrong with a add-ons as they are available for all is wrong
if zos aollowed the armory and UI respec into trials then wizards would be seen as a optional tool with them being locked this makes wizards a mandatory tool