Why destroy subclassing?

Ardriel · May 10

With the upcoming changes in Update 50, pure classes—that is, some classes, not all—will be buffed so significantly with class mastery that subclassing will no longer be competitive.
This will severely limit flexibility and render the “play however you want” motto pure cynicism.
Subclassing has been a great feature: you can play practically any class effectively and competitively.
Of course, I understand the complaints of players who want to preserve their class identity. Pure classing was too weak to be competitive and needed buffs.
But now some pure classes are being over-buffed, and subclassing is practically being nerfed (Velothi amulet, tide born set, etc.).
What’s the point of subclassing anymore? What’s the benefit if I have to invest twice the number of skill points to use subclassing? That means significantly more time spent farming those skill points for new toons. And for what?

Why can’t you take advantage of opportunities? Why not finally ensure balance? Please don’t keep destroying everything positive you’ve created!
The options for playing must remain diverse. Every playstyle, whether subclassing or pure classing, must have the same potential.

But the way things look on the PTS, only a few classes (Warden, Necro, and maybe Nightblade,) will be meta.
This means players will once again be significantly restricted and forced to play a specific class with a specific build.
That’s a real shame. Please rework the individual class buffs appropriately. Please ensure balance.
Why are you going to make subclassing obsolete? It was a such great feature.

I know it’s extremely difficult to satisfy all players...
But that’s your job. If you get it right, it will pay off. Satisfied players are happy to pay—and even spend a little extra—in the Crown Store.

Frustrated players cancel their ESO+ subscription and look for another game.

Toanis · May 10

Because some combinations have too much synergy to effectively counterplay in PVP but more importantly some raid leaders religiously follow the build suggestion of their favourite streamer, and kick everyone who refuses to play the meta beam build.

If you are one of the meta disciples, there is no difference between paying "a beam build" or going back to Arcanist. And if you are not, your current subclassing build is as effective as it is now, even when there is a more powerful variant without subclassing.

As for subscriptions, since EU subscriptions renew as a (way more expensive) 30 days subscription in malicious compliance with EU consumer protection laws, I'm certainly not the only one who immediately cancels after subscribing, so any protest-cancelling will be lost in the noise.

AlterBlika · May 10

Ardriel wrote: »

Of course, I understand the complaints of players who want to preserve their class identity. Pure classing was too weak to be competitive and needed buffs.

Imo they didn't need to buff pure classses. The only problem with pure classes is that most skill lines are outright useless. For example, most of those healer and tank lines do nothing for your dd build.

I think they should've just ditched these role-based skill lines and reshuffle class skills. At least this way you're less motivated to subclass

Nemesis7884 · May 10

Class mastery power levels are temporary until class refresh are done and proper rebalancing can happen...

Nemesis7884 · May 10

AlterBlika wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Of course, I understand the complaints of players who want to preserve their class identity. Pure classing was too weak to be competitive and needed buffs.

Imo they didn't need to buff pure classses. The only problem with pure classes is that most skill lines are outright useless. For example, most of those healer and tank lines do nothing for your dd build.

I think they should've just ditched these role-based skill lines and reshuffle class skills. At least this way you're less motivated to subclass

This is happening with the refresh

Athory · May 10

I don’t think the issue is simply "subclassing vs pure classing", it’s how the balance is being handled.

ESO was built around distinct class identities, and subclassing already pushes the game toward less separation between classes. That’s fine if it’s balanced well, but right now it feels like we’re swinging between extremes, first subclassing becomes almost mandatory because pure classes were weak, and now with strong class mastery buffs it risks going the other way.
The problem isn’t flexibility itself, it’s when one system starts making the other feel pointless in practice. Both should be viable without one constantly invalidating the other depending on patches.

Ideally, classes stay distinct and subclassing stays a real option, not something that becomes meta or irrelevant depending on tuning.

Renato90085 · May 10

The problem you mentioned is exactly the problem we are currently facing from subclass.

Ardriel · May 10

Renato90085 wrote: »

The problem you mentioned is exactly the problem we are currently facing from subclass.

That's true. I did mention that Pure Classing needs buffs. But why does it always have to go from one extreme to the other?

Ardriel · May 10

Athory wrote: »

I don’t think the issue is simply "subclassing vs pure classing", it’s how the balance is being handled.

ESO was built around distinct class identities, and subclassing already pushes the game toward less separation between classes. That’s fine if it’s balanced well, but right now it feels like we’re swinging between extremes, first subclassing becomes almost mandatory because pure classes were weak, and now with strong class mastery buffs it risks going the other way.
The problem isn’t flexibility itself, it’s when one system starts making the other feel pointless in practice. Both should be viable without one constantly invalidating the other depending on patches.

Ideally, classes stay distinct and subclassing stays a real option, not something that becomes meta or irrelevant depending on tuning.

Exactly!

Ardriel · May 10

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Of course, I understand the complaints of players who want to preserve their class identity. Pure classing was too weak to be competitive and needed buffs.

Imo they didn't need to buff pure classses. The only problem with pure classes is that most skill lines are outright useless. For example, most of those healer and tank lines do nothing for your dd build.

I think they should've just ditched these role-based skill lines and reshuffle class skills. At least this way you're less motivated to subclass

This is happening with the refresh

To be honest, I'm not very optimistic that the necessary balance will be achieved after the refresh. For some reason, ZOS seems to be sticking to this sledgehammer approach.

Pcgamer · May 10

I'm raging mad...i adapted to subclassing even though I was absolutely against it and then they pull the rug from under me
AGAIN..at this point i want to tell the devs to shut ESO down until they get their game together rather than treat us like lab rats to test their whims on.

Renato90085 · May 10

Ardriel wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

The problem you mentioned is exactly the problem we are currently facing from subclass.

That's true. I did mention that Pure Classing needs buffs. But why does it always have to go from one extreme to the other?

This will remain the norm until the class rework is complete.maybe half done..?
because if pure class want better than sublcass,it mean they(zos) only can give more power high than 3dps line subclass
this is due to the subclass system lack of thought and long years skill line extremely poor balance.

Luneca · May 10

The problem is, always has been, and always will be the core design loop of the game.

I'm talking about the loop that prioritizes nothing but doing damage and DPS, and then links that with an "endless grind" philosophy.

That will result in an endless cycle of buffing and nerfing that will never stop because all that ultimately matters in the end is damage.

The mythics, subclassing, hybridization, everything added to the game as a system goes back to doing damage, completing a grind, and then ultimately being able to grind faster (besides that card game that recieved a lot of negativity because it didn't follow the DPS trend).

And this is a problem of the developer's own making. Lack of mechanics across the majority of the game that punish doing damage besides one-shots, what amounts to essentially hard DPS checks masquerading as strategic play, and literally that adding more damage ultimately solves any problem in the game.

Even the OP is talking about viability, but what we're really talking about is just more damage.

I've said it before. ZOS had an opportunity with mythics and their chapter philosophy to add more dimensions to the game than simply one: doing damage.

Instead they've done the opposite and have gone all-in on making the game solely about damage, even in PvP. Even in PvP, anything that used to be usable to counter anyone just stacking damage has been nerfed or pushed to the point of irrelevency that no one slots it or cares to.

And I actually find that disappointing for combat as a whole, and I have no counterargument when people say that combat in this game lacks depth or it doesn't appeal to them. I agree because it kinda doesn't appeal to me either. That's why in PvP I'm just firing siege.

OsUfi · May 10

They're not destroying anything from what I can see. They're adding. Which is a good thing.

Everything you're doing now will be just as viable after update 50. Just because the meta might shift a little bit, doesn't mean you have to change anything.

Also, OP, are you honestly unhappy Warden, Necro and Nightblade might be meta? Be still my beating heart! The three most overlooked PvE classes for literally years being given a lift? God forbid we see anything other then the Arcanist/Assasination/Aedric monstrosity running around everywhere.

beer781993 · May 10

A step in the right direction. Builds will stop being the same with 1 or 2 different abilities on all classes.

In my opinion it should be removed anyways or just be used by supporters.

ZoS should give every class an unique group buff that increases dps so that every class has a spot in optimized groups.

SolarRune · May 10

Forcing any group comp is wrong - by giving each class a unique buff you are swinging things entirely the other way and we end up with leads tring to cover all classes for the buffs, and as a player you get turned away because you're the wrong class. All buffs/debuffs should be available through different means for all content, not that long ago the only source of major vuln was necro - it was right to make TT and Archdruid to give other options of providing - it does mean giving up a different set you could have run and brings better build diversity and move us closer to equality between the different classes.

rockDokRock · May 10

Bottom line is there will always be "meta build" that end game types will follow religiously as it optimises everything they do. There will always be one combiniation of class/gear/skills that out performs the others. I can't see a way around that.

"Play how you want" is true... the only time that is an issue is top tier end game stuff which most of us aren't involved in. I am sure my DPS Arcanist will be just fine after this update. My warden will be fine. Looking forward to using my necro character again to see what the changes were. I really don't get the outrage. There will *ALWAYS* be meta builds and they may shift slightly from time to time.

Ardriel · May 10

OsUfi wrote: »

They're not destroying anything from what I can see. They're adding. Which is a good thing.

Everything you're doing now will be just as viable after update 50. Just because the meta might shift a little bit, doesn't mean you have to change anything.

Also, OP, are you honestly unhappy Warden, Necro and Nightblade might be meta? Be still my beating heart! The three most overlooked PvE classes for literally years being given a lift? God forbid we see anything other then the Arcanist/Assasination/Aedric monstrosity running around everywhere.

I'm just asking for balance ... every class should have the same dps output potential with or without subclassing.

BardokRedSnow · May 10

So l

Ardriel wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

They're not destroying anything from what I can see. They're adding. Which is a good thing.

Everything you're doing now will be just as viable after update 50. Just because the meta might shift a little bit, doesn't mean you have to change anything.

Also, OP, are you honestly unhappy Warden, Necro and Nightblade might be meta? Be still my beating heart! The three most overlooked PvE classes for literally years being given a lift? God forbid we see anything other then the Arcanist/Assasination/Aedric monstrosity running around everywhere.

I'm just asking for balance ... every class should have the same dps output potential with or without subclassing.

Never gonna happen and honestly I disagree with this, a dk doesn’t need to have more or as much dps as a sorc and a sorc doesn’t need to be as tanky and rugged as a dk. The damage shields namely should be strong but hard to maintain since they can zip around.

I really dislike this mindset, every class is supposed to have a uniquely viable role in the game, for pve and PvP. Even that is difficult without trying to match everyone’s dps potential. The only reason dk needed more dps here was to match subclassing potential or surpass it at a baseline.

beer781993 · May 10

SolarRune wrote: »

Forcing any group comp is wrong - by giving each class a unique buff you are swinging things entirely the other way and we end up with leads tring to cover all classes for the buffs, and as a player you get turned away because you're the wrong class. All buffs/debuffs should be available through different means for all content, not that long ago the only source of major vuln was necro - it was right to make TT and Archdruid to give other options of providing - it does mean giving up a different set you could have run and brings better build diversity and move us closer to equality between the different classes.

It's not, it's optimized for end game. You can still clear everything with multiple same classes.

Atm it's like 8 Dks and you still get turned down for not playing the meta class. So where is the difference??

The way I suggested it, you would have a shot at playing your favourite class in prog because 1 is needed.

Casual groups wouldn't be affected.

AvalonRanger · May 10

Ardriel wrote: »

With the upcoming changes in Update 50, pure classes—that is, some classes, not all—will be buffed so significantly with class mastery that subclassing will no longer be competitive.
This will severely limit flexibility and render the “play however you want” motto pure cynicism.
Subclassing has been a great feature: you can play practically any class effectively and competitively.
Of course, I understand the complaints of players who want to preserve their class identity. Pure classing was too weak to be competitive and needed buffs.
But now some pure classes are being over-buffed, and subclassing is practically being nerfed (Velothi amulet, tide born set, etc.).
What’s the point of subclassing anymore? What’s the benefit if I have to invest twice the number of skill points to use subclassing? That means significantly more time spent farming those skill points for new toons. And for what?

Why can’t you take advantage of opportunities? Why not finally ensure balance? Please don’t keep destroying everything positive you’ve created!
The options for playing must remain diverse. Every playstyle, whether subclassing or pure classing, must have the same potential.

But the way things look on the PTS, only a few classes (Warden, Necro, and maybe Nightblade,) will be meta.
This means players will once again be significantly restricted and forced to play a specific class with a specific build.
That’s a real shame. Please rework the individual class buffs appropriately. Please ensure balance.
Why are you going to make subclassing obsolete? It was a such great feature.

I know it’s extremely difficult to satisfy all players...
But that’s your job. If you get it right, it will pay off. Satisfied players are happy to pay—and even spend a little extra—in the Crown Store.
Frustrated players cancel their ESO+ subscription and look for another game.

"Please don’t keep destroying everything positive you’ve created!"

CORRECT!!

And, dev keep doing those mistake through this 11 years. (T_T)

Nordstern · May 10

No matter what they do, there will always be some people crying in the forums. The vast majority of players dont like subclassing, so theyre doing the exact right thing. And btw it will still be competitive, i guess youre just frustrated that some cheese build wont overperform anymore.

Kilthor69 · May 10

"Subclassing has been a great feature: you can play practically any class effectively and competitively."

Could not disagree more. There are several builds and they are beam builds. That is not play any way you want to be meta. This approach is follow the top players or else you are left in the dust.

Eso should be about telling stories and opening new areas to enjoy new scenery. Not over-powered builds so a ceratin handful of players can be happy.

OsUfi · May 10

Ardriel wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

They're not destroying anything from what I can see. They're adding. Which is a good thing.

Everything you're doing now will be just as viable after update 50. Just because the meta might shift a little bit, doesn't mean you have to change anything.

Also, OP, are you honestly unhappy Warden, Necro and Nightblade might be meta? Be still my beating heart! The three most overlooked PvE classes for literally years being given a lift? God forbid we see anything other then the Arcanist/Assasination/Aedric monstrosity running around everywhere.

I'm just asking for balance ... every class should have the same dps output potential with or without subclassing.

Perfect class balance in ESO will never be exact, but ZoS has raised the DPS floor so much that every class and subclass can comfortably clear almost all content with viable builds. Outside of score-pushing, any class/race combo can tank, heal, or DPS effectively, and the balance is already more than good enough for 99% of the game.

Silaf · May 10

"Play how you want" and all dps in the trial must look the same as an arcanist variant.... So boring.
Fot healer and tanks subclassing is working a little better but overall a bad design choiche made to sell the DLC.

Ardriel · May 10

Nordstern wrote: »

No matter what they do, there will always be some people crying in the forums. The vast majority of players dont like subclassing, so theyre doing the exact right thing. And btw it will still be competitive, i guess youre just frustrated that some cheese build wont overperform anymore.

I'm not "crying", I'm asking a question and would like to find out why ZOS is doing this. However a lot of people were actually "crying" in the forums, after subclassing was introduced... but of course that's something different, isn't it?

Btw I'm not frustrated that some "cheese build won't overperform anymore". I would be happy to play my main (templar) pure class. But unfortunately ZOS didn't bother to buff Templar Class Mastery enough to be competitive...

Seems to me that you on the other hand are frustrated that casual players with cheesy builds are doing same or maybe even better dps than you...

Anyway, if the vast majority of players hate subclassing, then it will be dead soon.
It' a shame but luckily I don't have to play this game if I don't want to.

Personofsecrets · May 10

What seems to be the case based off if the DK changes is that the design team isn't necessarily interested in changing power levels. They seem to be staunchly against specific playstyles and are happy to fully invalidate those styles even if they have been enjoyed as a concrete part of a classes identity for a decade.

I'm appalled that the style of tanking I implemented for so long as a DK only player is now wiped out. There seems to be little chance that I will pure class as DK again. I'm forced to play DK as a sub class as I only play 1 character that is a DK. I can hardly justify using 1 or especially more than 1 DK skill now.

SolarRune · May 10

Silaf wrote: »

"Play how you want" and all dps in the trial must look the same as an arcanist variant.... So boring.
Fot healer and tanks subclassing is working a little better but overall a bad designb choiche made to sell the DLC.

except it was base game and buying the dlc wasn't needed to access

Radiate77 · May 10

Nordstern wrote: »

No matter what they do, there will always be some people crying in the forums. The vast majority of players dont like subclassing, so theyre doing the exact right thing. And btw it will still be competitive, i guess youre just frustrated that some cheese build wont overperform anymore.

I find this comment highly ironic and hilarious.

“The vast majority of players dont like subclassing, so theyre doing the exact right thing.”

Where did you pull that data?
Your two friends in your echo chamber?

People generally dislike a specific synergy possible with Subclassing in PvP, and another specific synergy in PvE… not the system itself.

It’s like amputating your arm for a papercut.

I’ve seen this before in a game that used to host over 100,000 concurrent active players each expansion that is now sitting at what… dropping below like 10,000 people?

Let’s do what they did./s
Imagine being a Destiny and ESO fan. 🥲

Necrotech_Master · May 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

No matter what they do, there will always be some people crying in the forums. The vast majority of players dont like subclassing, so theyre doing the exact right thing. And btw it will still be competitive, i guess youre just frustrated that some cheese build wont overperform anymore.

I find this comment highly ironic and hilarious.

“The vast majority of players dont like subclassing, so theyre doing the exact right thing.”

Where did you pull that data?
Your two friends in your echo chamber?

People generally dislike a specific synergy possible with Subclassing in PvP, and another specific synergy in PvE… not the system itself.

It’s like amputating your arm for a papercut.

Right… just phase out an entire system that people have spent countless hours theorycrafting builds since its inception, I think I’ve seen this before in a game that used to host over 100,000 concurrent active players each expansion that is now sitting at what… dropping below like 10,000 people?

Let’s do what they did./s
Imagine being a Destiny and ESO fan. 🥲

this lol

there is always going to be a meta regardless of what is going on, and the ONLY time anything meta is really required is if your doing HM trials or trifectas

i would agree that 90% of the complaints are mostly about pvp balance (which is usually an actual issue), but for pve theres nothing really stopping from playing your way unless your doing super sweaty high end content (HM trials, trifectas, or score pushing)

zaria · May 11

Ardriel wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

The problem you mentioned is exactly the problem we are currently facing from subclass.

That's true. I did mention that Pure Classing needs buffs. But why does it always have to go from one extreme to the other?

Because the only tool they have is an sledgehammer.
They are so lucky ESO is an so alt friendly game.