Night Market - the REAL issue with grouping

HatchetHaro · May 9

TL;DR: group leaders should be visible on the Night Market map in real-time.

I've seen a lot of discussion around about the group-heavy nature of the Night Market. The solo-player camp has been frustrated with the difficulty and feels alienated and locked out of doing the content, and the group-player camp has generally been dismissive of those concerns due to their familiarity with the grouping aspect of the game.

I am an endgame raider, with all of the Trials trifecta achievements; I'm no stranger to the concept of grouping up to get things done. Running around the Night Market in an organized group is by and far my favourite way to approach the content. However, running in organized groups requires scheduling and being rostered in already-established raiding Discord servers, and so when I want to tackle the content in any off-time when there aren't any groups scheduled in my servers, I have no choice but to turn to the in-game Group Finder.

And oh boy, are Group Finder groups a dice roll. Any time that I join one of those, problems arise. Look, I am not expecting levels of play anywhere even close to what I am used to in organized groups, but when I join in with fake tanks who wipe the group by not taunting bosses or damage-dealers who completely ignore basic mechanics (many of which are just recycled from early base-game dungeons), it leaves me with an experience that is barely better than solo play. I then leave the group and look for another, rinse and repeat.

My gripe isn't with bad players; they are an inherent truth to any online game, and I'm always down to help. My issue is that there's no other way to play. Outside of groups, the Night Market feels empty. Any and all groups in any instance I join in seem to be the only one running through the zone. I understand that ZOS has addressed feedback about instance population in their recent Night Market - Week One Notes, but right now the Night Market zone is just missing that signature hustle-and-bustle intrinsic to public dungeons and even the Imperial City.

Thus, my thesis: solo players don't actually dislike grouping up with other players; it's just that the Night Market is not providing a way for them to play without interacting with the Group Finder gamble.

If we want to capture that "signature hustle-and-bustle" for the Night Market, solo players need a way to jump into the action without having to navigate the Group Finder. They need a way to play that retains their player agency without having to commit to a group, all while still contributing to group efforts throughout the zone.

The simplest solution, of course, is to increase the instance size, but since that might bring other balancing issues down the road, I would like to propose another solution: make group leaders visible on the map in real-time.

By making group leaders (and by extension, groups) visible on the map, we solve the "empty zone" issue without needing to increase instances sizes, and would allow for that awesome "zerg" feeling we can find in less-restricted zones. Being able to see the pulse of the zone at a glance transforms the map into a live tool for multiplayer action, allowing players to identify exactly where a district has momentum. This would also allow for any "solo-player" to contribute to group efforts by simply gravitating towards the action, knowing they aren't alone in a district. It would replace that blind Group Finder gamble with the confidence of seeing players already in motion, allowing players to contribute to district objectives without the frustration of feeling like they're the only ones in the instance.

The Night Market doesn't need a change in difficulty; it needs a change in accessibility. If we are provided with the map tools to find the action organically, we can get back to actually playing the game together without being at each other's throats about "this is a group zone just group up". By making active groups visible to everyone in the zone, the Night Market can finally become the bustling, high-energy hub an actual night market is meant to be.

Gabriel_H · May 9

I spend ~90 - 95% of my in-game time as solo. The other 5% - 10% is running dungeona and trial trifectas. I am quite capable of soloing the mob packs in the NM, as well as doing the daily district quests.

If I have to kill a Brazen or Argent, I go to group finder, setup a group, and wait 2 to 3 minutes for 12 players to fill it. Even if half of them are absolute useless no clue noobs, that's still more than enough to kill a Brazen, and Argent, and a Calamitous. You may run into difficulty with such a group taking on a Skirmish where the Calamitous decides to join, but that's about as bad as it gets.

The Brazen & Argent bosses are taken from dungeons and existing overland, and given a signifant health boost BUT their damage is very much nerfed. If you've had trouble with the groups from group finder clearing those bosses, I would suggest that is the exception and not the norm.

Edit For Clarification: No boss in the NM needs a 36-man zerg.

Tallon_IV · May 9

The fake tank thing really gets to me because there's no reason for them to do it; most of the open spots in groups are for DPS, yet every other group has a fake tank, and then you have everyone running around like headless chickens because the boss is untaunted.

HatchetHaro · May 9

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I spend ~90 - 95% of my in-game time as solo. The other 5% - 10% is running dungeona and trial trifectas. I am quite capable of soloing the mob packs in the NM, as well as doing the daily district quests.

If I have to kill a Brazen or Argent, I go to group finder, setup a group, and wait 2 to 3 minutes for 12 players to fill it. Even if half of them are absolute useless no clue noobs, that's still more than enough to kill a Brazen, and Argent, and a Calamitous. You may run into difficulty with such a group taking on a Skirmish where the Calamitous decides to join, but that's about as bad as it gets.

The Brazen & Argent bosses are taken from dungeons and existing overland, and given a signifant health boost BUT their damage is very much nerfed. If you've had trouble with the groups from group finder clearing those bosses, I would suggest that is the exception and not the norm.

Edit For Clarification: No boss in the NM needs a 36-man zerg.

The fact that you can solo trash mobs proves nothing. Neither of us are representative of the average solo player, and being "capable" of doing something doesn't mean the system used to get there isn't clunky.

You seem to think that sitting and waiting for a group fill is "fine", but my entire point is that players shouldn't have to wait or go through the Group Finder just to find the action.

I'm also struggling to find where I mentioned boss health or needing a 36-man zerg. I suggested map visibility changes to capture the feeling of a zerg, you know, organic momentum found in other group-forward instances like public dungeons.

I can't address any of your points, because none of them have anything to do with my post. You've completely missed my point about the systemic friction around grouping in the Night Market, and instead pivoted to a weird flex about your own skill and how "easy" it is to click a button and wait.

Gabriel_H · May 9

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I spend ~90 - 95% of my in-game time as solo. The other 5% - 10% is running dungeona and trial trifectas. I am quite capable of soloing the mob packs in the NM, as well as doing the daily district quests.

If I have to kill a Brazen or Argent, I go to group finder, setup a group, and wait 2 to 3 minutes for 12 players to fill it. Even if half of them are absolute useless no clue noobs, that's still more than enough to kill a Brazen, and Argent, and a Calamitous. You may run into difficulty with such a group taking on a Skirmish where the Calamitous decides to join, but that's about as bad as it gets.

The Brazen & Argent bosses are taken from dungeons and existing overland, and given a signifant health boost BUT their damage is very much nerfed. If you've had trouble with the groups from group finder clearing those bosses, I would suggest that is the exception and not the norm.

Edit For Clarification: No boss in the NM needs a 36-man zerg.

The fact that you can solo trash moves proves nothing. Neither of us are representative of the average solo player, and being "capable" of doing something doesn't mean the system used to get there isn't clunky.

You seem to think that sitting and waiting for a group fill is "fine", but my entire point is that players shouldn't have to wait or go through the Group Finder just to find the action.

I'm also struggling to find where I mentioned boss health or needing a 36-man zerg. I suggested map visibility to capture the feeling of a zerg, you know, organic momentum found in other group-forward instances like public dungeons.

I can't address any of your points, because none of them have anything to do with my post. You've completely missed my point about the systemic friction around grouping in the Night Market, and instead pivoted to a weird flex about your own skill and how "easy" it is to click a button and wait.

Nah, I'm pretty representative of the average solo player. There isn't some big mystery to it, simply build right.

Sitting an waiting for a group to fill is how 95% of dungeon and trial players DO spend their time. The likes of you and I run in pre-organised groups, but most players do not.

If you have map markers showing "where the action is", that's where everyone will go. i.e. a 36-man zerg. Your points fail to take account that most of the players do just click a button and wait for a group.

The issue isn't the system, it's that you are coming from a place of privilege - earned yes, but still privilege.

HatchetHaro · May 9

Gabriel_H wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I spend ~90 - 95% of my in-game time as solo. The other 5% - 10% is running dungeona and trial trifectas. I am quite capable of soloing the mob packs in the NM, as well as doing the daily district quests.

If I have to kill a Brazen or Argent, I go to group finder, setup a group, and wait 2 to 3 minutes for 12 players to fill it. Even if half of them are absolute useless no clue noobs, that's still more than enough to kill a Brazen, and Argent, and a Calamitous. You may run into difficulty with such a group taking on a Skirmish where the Calamitous decides to join, but that's about as bad as it gets.

The Brazen & Argent bosses are taken from dungeons and existing overland, and given a signifant health boost BUT their damage is very much nerfed. If you've had trouble with the groups from group finder clearing those bosses, I would suggest that is the exception and not the norm.

Edit For Clarification: No boss in the NM needs a 36-man zerg.

The fact that you can solo trash moves proves nothing. Neither of us are representative of the average solo player, and being "capable" of doing something doesn't mean the system used to get there isn't clunky.

You seem to think that sitting and waiting for a group fill is "fine", but my entire point is that players shouldn't have to wait or go through the Group Finder just to find the action.

I'm also struggling to find where I mentioned boss health or needing a 36-man zerg. I suggested map visibility to capture the feeling of a zerg, you know, organic momentum found in other group-forward instances like public dungeons.

I can't address any of your points, because none of them have anything to do with my post. You've completely missed my point about the systemic friction around grouping in the Night Market, and instead pivoted to a weird flex about your own skill and how "easy" it is to click a button and wait.

Nah, I'm pretty representative of the average solo player. There isn't some big mystery to it, simply build right.

Sitting an waiting for a group to fill is how 95% of dungeon and trial players DO spend their time. The likes of you and I run in pre-organised groups, but most players do not.

If you have map markers showing "where the action is", that's where everyone will go. i.e. a 36-man zerg. Your points fail to take account that most of the players do just click a button and wait for a group.

The issue isn't the system, it's that you are coming from a place of privilege - earned yes, but still privilege.

Claiming to be "representative of the average solo player" while simultaneously flexing that you have the build or skill to solo group-intended content is a massive contradiction. Most solo players are looking for a way to engage with the zone without the friction of having to go through the Group Finder, not a "git gud" lecture. All this is made only funnier from you somehow calling my desire for a better system for everyone "privilege".

The argument that "everyone else waits in queues, so you should too" is exactly why you're part of the problem. I'm proposing a way to evolve the Night Market experience beyond "click button and wait".

As for the "36-man zerg", that's a boogeyman argument. Dolmens, Dragons, Abyssal Geysers, and Volcanic Vents all have map-visible action. Those don't break the game; they create the "hustle-and-bustle" that makes ESO feels like a shared world rather than a series of isolated lobbies.

If your only counter-argument is "the current slow way is the way it's always been", then you haven't addressed anything; you've just expressed a preference for stagnation.

MRAW · May 9

I don’t think that idea would be helpful much. If I enter a pug group and ask in group chat where they are, I always get an answer at least for the area and if dot enter it (Parch/Sorrow/Skitt), you see the crown.

I rather hear that some players really hate to die at all and they have problems to get to their group without dying, because the group is already far away from the entrance. I think what they rather would need is a teleport to the rooftops.

HatchetHaro · May 9

MRAW wrote: »

I don’t think that idea would be helpful much. If I enter a pug group and ask in group chat where they are, I always get an answer at least for the area and if dot enter it (Parch/Sorrow/Skitt), you see the crown.

I rather hear that some players really hate to die at all and they have problems to get to their group without dying, because the group is already far away from the entrance. I think what they rather would need is a teleport to the rooftops.

Yeah, the whole point of my post is about not having to enter a pug group while still being able to engage in the content with other players.

SeaGtGruff · May 9

In my own experience, the real problem with grouping in the Night Market-- and in every other piece of group content in this game-- is that grouping seems to bring out toxic attitudes between group members. PUGs are the best example of this, since the group members are unknown to each other, but toxic attitudes from vets and elites toward "lesser players" can also occur in groups consisting of fellow guildies. Some players just do not have any patience or understanding at all toward others who are still trying to learn a particular piece of content, or who they think don't pump out enough DPS or HPS or can tank through enough incoming damage. And when players who are trying to learn start running into toxicity, it doesn't encourage them to keep grouping. That's the real reason there are so many solo players in this MMO-- because some of the group players are so toxic. And it might not be a majority-- I have no idea of percentages here-- but even if it's just a one-digit percentage (between 1% and 9%), a few bad encounters can be enough to push people away from ever wanting to group again.

Blood_again · May 9

HatchetHaro wrote: »

TL;DR: group leaders should be visible on the Night Market map in real-time.

Honestly, you think like a group player

However, a real random group can be spread, dead, or just abandoned. The leader location is not what the solo player wants to know.

I remember my times when I went to Cyrodiil first time. There was a huge and empty space, where I - solo player - couldn't find anybody in any way but accidentally.
I didn't care if there were any groups or group leaders. I was interested in anything that happens anywhere.
The best thing happened when I found a checkbox for "battles" to show them on my map.

The same would be the best for the ungrouped players on the Night Market.
1. The combined map of NM with all 3 districts.
2. The markers of battles on this map, where at least 3 players participate.

This way any player will know "where are all? where can I find an action?" (the most common questions a solo player asks here)

CoronHR · May 9

i wouldn't mind an indicator for group leaders, so you know where a group is exactly. sometimes gf groups and their titles are a little ... funny. sometimes clear, but sometimes it's a guess. but idk, i'm having fun with that. some groups you join are a hoot. some groups are sort of like splintered, or the group's changing from its original objective. anyway, i like the big variety -- and dice roll -- of joining groups, and i've not had any difficulty doing content.

just to say, i'm loving the night market. some things frustrate me, like 100% dying solo in 1.5 seconds if i'm not on my cloak build, but in general, i think this was a win for zos, and i don't mind the chaotic nature of joining groups. i think it's really fun

kevkj · May 9

If the original proposal is too complex for ZOS, having zone wide notifications when a boss is engaged (Cyrodiil scroll notification tech) and/or ALL boss icons (not just the calamity) to flash would probably help a lot. I've very much noticed the same pattern where every instance only has one big group and the leftovers are either afk or hapless solos not able to know where the action is.