Gizit wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Is this test even incentivized? I mean pcna was nearly pop locked during primetime afterwork hours. From 7pm EST to 11pm EST it was 3bar AD+DC and locked EP. Which means it was at 700-900 players atleast consistently. This is either alarming or kind of a tell tale that zos shouldn't have kicked pvp to the curb a long time ago. Numbers wise if it was consistently around 800 that means over the night there may have been double that entering and leaving. Combine that with everyday Greyhost numbers and we are probably up near 2-3k players interested in pvp out of the 8k average daily players.

Just to be clear I am not saying vengeance should dropship how it is currently designed. I would much rather zos replace the loadout bonuses and perks with a vengeance item set stickerbook of redesigned sets. Easy enough to start with the nonproc stat gear. At most maybe allow the more performative proc-stat sets with longer term checks like clever alchemist or 7th legion. Proc condition sets which have longterm on/offs instead of checks that trigger every possible tick. These new sets could be unlocked someway or purchaseable with AP. Then you could also use AP to gold out the stickerbook or make trait changes on the fly.

Vengeance is also missing morphs especially for sustain tools that allow us to use stam weapons. There is simply too much automatic regen which should otherwise be sustain through more active tools like darkdeal or dark converg. Morphs are a slippery slope though where zos could fall into the trap of every morph suddenly starts giving bonus major/minor buffs where instead a more performative approach would be modifying the skills itself. For example streak stuns at the final location, Ball of lightning stuns at the starting location. No random bonus buff that inflates the server and two distinct playstyles are now made.

This is actually a really good take. Thank you for noticing also that even though other factions were not pop locked it was 100's more players than GH would have had. It is encouraging to see people interested in PvP. Good takes!

Gizit wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Is this test even incentivized? I mean pcna was nearly pop locked during primetime afterwork hours. From 7pm EST to 11pm EST it was 3bar AD+DC and locked EP. Which means it was at 700-900 players atleast consistently. This is either alarming or kind of a tell tale that zos shouldn't have kicked pvp to the curb a long time ago. Numbers wise if it was consistently around 800 that means over the night there may have been double that entering and leaving. Combine that with everyday Greyhost numbers and we are probably up near 2-3k players interested in pvp out of the 8k average daily players.

Just to be clear I am not saying vengeance should dropship how it is currently designed. I would much rather zos replace the loadout bonuses and perks with a vengeance item set stickerbook of redesigned sets. Easy enough to start with the nonproc stat gear. At most maybe allow the more performative proc-stat sets with longer term checks like clever alchemist or 7th legion. Proc condition sets which have longterm on/offs instead of checks that trigger every possible tick. These new sets could be unlocked someway or purchaseable with AP. Then you could also use AP to gold out the stickerbook or make trait changes on the fly.

Vengeance is also missing morphs especially for sustain tools that allow us to use stam weapons. There is simply too much automatic regen which should otherwise be sustain through more active tools like darkdeal or dark converg. Morphs are a slippery slope though where zos could fall into the trap of every morph suddenly starts giving bonus major/minor buffs where instead a more performative approach would be modifying the skills itself. For example streak stuns at the final location, Ball of lightning stuns at the starting location. No random bonus buff that inflates the server and two distinct playstyles are now made.

This is actually a really good take. Thank you for noticing also that even though other factions were not pop locked it was 100's more players than GH would have had. It is encouraging to see people interested in PvP. Good takes!

If only they just went and flushed it out more. There still isn't enough normal build elements to allow people to tailor their playstyle and focus on what they like to do. Like I dont think stamsorc is viable in here, but magsorc is very strong buildwise and I am a 12 year stamsorc pvp player.

Some of the balance dynamics are also off. Like we have a high TTk which would be fine if the regen wasnt so high and instead people had to use sustain tools like darkdeal. With a high TTK and high regen when outnumbered it requires alot of commitment to kill one player who can easily just spam only heals which counter your single line of damage. If that same player had to take breaks in healing to keep their sustain going it would be much more feasible to trip them up so they cant heal.

All of the game wasnt fleshed out at release in 2014 also. I think this game mode gives a lot of runway to growth. Same as you although not sorc I am hopeful for more things to come add and change as we have seen with Cyrodiil since the beginning. A lot of these other "PvP' folks just need to buckle up for a few days and we can all go back to proccing our rallying cry (myself included) in no time.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Is this test even incentivized? I mean pcna was nearly pop locked during primetime afterwork hours. From 7pm EST to 11pm EST it was 3bar AD+DC and locked EP. Which means it was at 700-900 players atleast consistently. This is either alarming or kind of a tell tale that zos shouldn't have kicked pvp to the curb a long time ago. Numbers wise if it was consistently around 800 that means over the night there may have been double that entering and leaving. Combine that with everyday Greyhost numbers and we are probably up near 2-3k players interested in pvp out of the 8k average daily players.

Just to be clear I am not saying vengeance should dropship how it is currently designed. I would much rather zos replace the loadout bonuses and perks with a vengeance item set stickerbook of redesigned sets. Easy enough to start with the nonproc stat gear. At most maybe allow the more performative proc-stat sets with longer term checks like clever alchemist or 7th legion. Proc condition sets which have longterm on/offs instead of checks that trigger every possible tick. These new sets could be unlocked someway or purchaseable with AP. Then you could also use AP to gold out the stickerbook or make trait changes on the fly.

Vengeance is also missing morphs especially for sustain tools that allow us to use stam weapons. There is simply too much automatic regen which should otherwise be sustain through more active tools like darkdeal or dark converg. Morphs are a slippery slope though where zos could fall into the trap of every morph suddenly starts giving bonus major/minor buffs where instead a more performative approach would be modifying the skills itself. For example streak stuns at the final location, Ball of lightning stuns at the starting location. No random bonus buff that inflates the server and two distinct playstyles are now made.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Is this test even incentivized? I mean pcna was nearly pop locked during primetime afterwork hours. From 7pm EST to 11pm EST it was 3bar AD+DC and locked EP. Which means it was at 700-900 players atleast consistently. This is either alarming or kind of a tell tale that zos shouldn't have kicked pvp to the curb a long time ago. Numbers wise if it was consistently around 800 that means over the night there may have been double that entering and leaving. Combine that with everyday Greyhost numbers and we are probably up near 2-3k players interested in pvp out of the 8k average daily players.

Just to be clear I am not saying vengeance should dropship how it is currently designed. I would much rather zos replace the loadout bonuses and perks with a vengeance item set stickerbook of redesigned sets. Easy enough to start with the nonproc stat gear. At most maybe allow the more performative proc-stat sets with longer term checks like clever alchemist or 7th legion. Proc condition sets which have longterm on/offs instead of checks that trigger every possible tick. These new sets could be unlocked someway or purchaseable with AP. Then you could also use AP to gold out the stickerbook or make trait changes on the fly.

Vengeance is also missing morphs especially for sustain tools that allow us to use stam weapons. There is simply too much automatic regen which should otherwise be sustain through more active tools like darkdeal or dark converg. Morphs are a slippery slope though where zos could fall into the trap of every morph suddenly starts giving bonus major/minor buffs where instead a more performative approach would be modifying the skills itself. For example streak stuns at the final location, Ball of lightning stuns at the starting location. No random bonus buff that inflates the server and two distinct playstyles are now made.

This is actually a really good take. Thank you for noticing also that even though other factions were not pop locked it was 100's more players than GH would have had. It is encouraging to see people interested in PvP. Good takes!

If only they just went and flushed it out more. There still isn't enough normal build elements to allow people to tailor their playstyle and focus on what they like to do. Like I dont think stamsorc is viable in here, but magsorc is very strong buildwise and I am a 12 year stamsorc pvp player.

Some of the balance dynamics are also off. Like we have a high TTk which would be fine if the regen wasnt so high and instead people had to use sustain tools like darkdeal. With a high TTK and high regen when outnumbered it requires alot of commitment to kill one player who can easily just spam only heals which counter your single line of damage. If that same player had to take breaks in healing to keep their sustain going it would be much more feasible to trip them up so they cant heal.

All of the game wasnt fleshed out at release in 2014 also. I think this game mode gives a lot of runway to growth. Same as you although not sorc I am hopeful for more things to come add and change as we have seen with Cyrodiil since the beginning. A lot of these other "PvP' folks just need to buckle up for a few days and we can all go back to proccing our rallying cry (myself included) in no time.

Yeah we see these complaints about wanting all their gear back, yet 90% of builds on live are the same. So does the build really matter at the end of the day? If everyone wears rallying cry, at that point why not just have zos bump up our crit resist by that amount because its obviously needed and avoid the procs lagging the server?

The problem with not having build elements is we cant self regulate for bad meta designs. Like on live zos has WAY too much crit chance and crit damage sources. So everyone compensates with rallying cry. We cant do this in current vengeance.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

It will always be that way as theres always a set that's bis. Same goes for PvE. And while most players use the same few sets there are many more really good and definitely viable ones. I havent used Rallying Cry in a long time and I'm having a great time as a solo player.

What I was pointing out that matters more is the notion of we need overly complicated 5 paragraph long proc effect sets to have fun pvp. Vengeance clearly does not have enough build personalization. We would be better off if we could go to a middleground. At what point should we draw the line though, we can only guess the performance issues when adding crazier and crazier effects? For veng to be somewhat better I would atleast want them to try testing with clever alch level of proc effect sets....like some bare essential low tickrate effects with abscure proc conditions that dont check off common things like light attacks or damage received each tick.

• adds 300wd
• When you drink a potion during combat you feel a rush of energy, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 675 for 20 seconds.
• When you take damage, your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 24 for 5 seconds, stacking up to 20 times. This effect can occur once every half second. Upon reaching 20 stacks, the duration is doubled but can no longer be refreshed.
• Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage, Dealing Critical Damage increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 86, stacking up to 5 times. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. Completing a fully-charged Heavy Attack removes all stacks and increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 136 per stack removed. You cannot have both effects active at the same time.
• When your healing critically strikes while Battle Spirit is active, you and group members within 12 meters of you gain 1650 Critical Resistance and 300 Weapon and Spell Damage for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 15 and Critical Resistance by 83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.
• Adds 526 Maximum Stamina, Dealing Light Attack damage grants you a stack of Baker's Delight for 5 seconds. When you gain 3 stacks, you create a Sweetroll next to your target for 5 seconds. If you or an ally touches the Sweetroll, both you and your ally gain one of the following effects: Restore 1593 Health, Magicka and Stamina Gain Empower for 10 seconds Gain Major Force for 10 seconds This effect can occur once every 2 seconds.

You can even see in the word count how these 5 piece bonuses have just gotten absurdly long and complicated.

Nordstern wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

It will always be that way as theres always a set that's bis. Same goes for PvE. And while most players use the same few sets there are many more really good and definitely viable ones. I havent used Rallying Cry in a long time and I'm having a great time as a solo player.

What I was pointing out that matters more is the notion of we need overly complicated 5 paragraph long proc effect sets to have fun pvp. Vengeance clearly does not have enough build personalization. We would be better off if we could go to a middleground. At what point should we draw the line though, we can only guess the performance issues when adding crazier and crazier effects? For veng to be somewhat better I would atleast want them to try testing with clever alch level of proc effect sets....like some bare essential low tickrate effects with abscure proc conditions that dont check off common things like light attacks or damage received each tick.

• adds 300wd
• When you drink a potion during combat you feel a rush of energy, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 675 for 20 seconds.
• When you take damage, your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 24 for 5 seconds, stacking up to 20 times. This effect can occur once every half second. Upon reaching 20 stacks, the duration is doubled but can no longer be refreshed.
• Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage, Dealing Critical Damage increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 86, stacking up to 5 times. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. Completing a fully-charged Heavy Attack removes all stacks and increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 136 per stack removed. You cannot have both effects active at the same time.
• When your healing critically strikes while Battle Spirit is active, you and group members within 12 meters of you gain 1650 Critical Resistance and 300 Weapon and Spell Damage for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 15 and Critical Resistance by 83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.
• Adds 526 Maximum Stamina, Dealing Light Attack damage grants you a stack of Baker's Delight for 5 seconds. When you gain 3 stacks, you create a Sweetroll next to your target for 5 seconds. If you or an ally touches the Sweetroll, both you and your ally gain one of the following effects: Restore 1593 Health, Magicka and Stamina Gain Empower for 10 seconds Gain Major Force for 10 seconds This effect can occur once every 2 seconds.

You can even see in the word count how these 5 piece bonuses have just gotten absurdly long and complicated.

The main problem Vengeance has is definitely not the lack of customization. Its the overall design that seems like it was built to make skill matter as little as possible. While i definitely would miss customization, it could still be fun if it was built in a proper way. Proper way means that you have to pay attention and use the right skills at the right time to not die. Now everyone got so much hp that its impossible to burst someone down if they pay just a little attention. Hp needs to be way lower with maybe stronger heals.
Also idk why long effects should be a problem. I think we're all able to read and understand 4 consecutive sentences. What definitely IS a problem is the overall amount of sets. There really should be a better ingame database where you can browse ALL sets at once (and not just one area) and filter them by their effects and general category.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Is this test even incentivized? I mean pcna was nearly pop locked during primetime afterwork hours. From 7pm EST to 11pm EST it was 3bar AD+DC and locked EP. Which means it was at 700-900 players atleast consistently. This is either alarming or kind of a tell tale that zos shouldn't have kicked pvp to the curb a long time ago. Numbers wise if it was consistently around 800 that means over the night there may have been double that entering and leaving. Combine that with everyday Greyhost numbers and we are probably up near 2-3k players interested in pvp out of the 8k average daily players.

Just to be clear I am not saying vengeance should dropship how it is currently designed. I would much rather zos replace the loadout bonuses and perks with a vengeance item set stickerbook of redesigned sets. Easy enough to start with the nonproc stat gear. At most maybe allow the more performative proc-stat sets with longer term checks like clever alchemist or 7th legion. Proc condition sets which have longterm on/offs instead of checks that trigger every possible tick. These new sets could be unlocked someway or purchaseable with AP. Then you could also use AP to gold out the stickerbook or make trait changes on the fly.

Vengeance is also missing morphs especially for sustain tools that allow us to use stam weapons. There is simply too much automatic regen which should otherwise be sustain through more active tools like darkdeal or dark converg. Morphs are a slippery slope though where zos could fall into the trap of every morph suddenly starts giving bonus major/minor buffs where instead a more performative approach would be modifying the skills itself. For example streak stuns at the final location, Ball of lightning stuns at the starting location. No random bonus buff that inflates the server and two distinct playstyles are now made.

Day 1 of Vengeance after months away, with double AP, double XP, and as the only option available, was obviously going to pull high numbers. That does not prove long-term interest. At best, it proves people will log in for the novelty for the first 1–3 days. We have already seen this pattern in every prior test: populations spike early, then fall right back to 2 bars at most during primetime and the weekend.

The real test is whether it can retain players once the novelty wears off, and the answer has consistently been no. Whenever players were given Gray Host as an alternative, like in December even while Vengeance had double AP, most of the PvP playerbase still played in a pop locked Gray Host while vengeance was 1 bar 2 bar 1 bar. The same thing happened in the June/July 2025 tests, where Vengeance had double AP and even endeavors tied directly to it. It hit pop lock or 3 bars for a day or two, then fell off hard and never recovered past Wednesday, not even on the weekend when PvP activity is usually highest.

That is the core issue: Vengeance cannot retain players even when ZOS throws incentives at it. At this point, this test feels less like proof of success and more like the same short-lived honeymoon phase we have already watched multiple times. At the very least, hopefully this is the last test we have to sit through before its inevitable death.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

WHY are we forced to participate in Vengeance and not have another campaign to play in!?


Welp, looks like BGs/Imp City for a week!

They have to remove normal cyrodiil as an option because nobody will play vengeance if they have a real PvP option.

Arrow312 wrote: »

That is a good point why most players use RC because you need it. Not for the Damage for the surviability. a few years ago you use RC for damage an 2.2k crit resis was high enough. Nowaday when i saw build videos or my own builds, all impen, crit resi CP and RC not because i love it is because i need it.