Jammy420 wrote: »

Jaavaa wrote: »

The next one who talks about skill in vengeance 🤣

Do you think skill equates spending 900 hours grinding the most op set in the game, and everyone using the same 3 sets? Sets that do 99 percent of the work for you? That is absolutely not skill.

SneaK wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Is it that or are you missing your stupid OP Maarselok builds, or DK one shot combos or Damage Skill Line stack subclass meta? Your proc sets to carry your damage for you? Medium armor high sustain, high healing, high dmg, high crit, high mobility, speed cap streak, high hp builds to carry you? Is that what you miss?

Call me crazy but looks like you listed 11 different ways to play…

Jokes aside, anybody who has PvP’d in ESO over the decade remembers when things were not so unbalanced, and likely would jump at the chance to restore balance, however not for the sake of killing build variety (like you listed above).

Everyone always argues about balance when the topic of Vengeance comes up, guess what, Vengeance was not sold on balance it was sold on Performance. ZOS won’t balance Vengeance properly either. It’ll be a watered down mode with a worse meta than what GH will have after U50 drops class masteries. Vengeance will literally wind up being flavor of the month more than any camp we’ve ever seen, just like the tests were with NB. It’s 10 times worse though cause the game is moving forward with all kinds of updates and Vengeance won’t let you access them.

DOA

It is much easier to balance a small set of skills with an equal playing field, than 100+ sets and an insane amount of variables. Its not dead, I see mostly positive feedback in game, and a few loud whiners that cannot play without their broken builds.

albertberku wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Call me crazy but looks like you listed 11 different ways to play…

Well i listed 3 builds actually. 1: DoT with Maarselok (10% usage). 2: DK (60%), 3: Damage/Burst lines subclass (15%). You can use Shalks instead of Heart of Flame or Blastbones in another damage/burst line. You can use another glyph and one other trait than your friend. Does it really change your build or playstyle meaningfully? And everything else i listed are just used by all three of these. From medium armor to weapon dmg stack to speed cap unlimited sprint to high hp to unlimited sustain to godly dmg to crits/ block healing, extreme burst/proc sets. Just the same OP playstyle and build.

I am going to give you an example about what i mean. Before hybridization patch and all the chaos afterwards, there used to be 12 playstyles. Each class with stam and magicka versions. Magsorc played differently than stamsorc, stamblade was deadly but squishy, had hat shade gameplay. And then there was magblade with cloak and resto shield for healing when in cloak. There was Templar that could block and heal better than everyone else staying alive in dense areas. Magsorc could run away with Streak. And then there was DK which was master of DoTs and could burn you if you get close. These are the different playstyles. Today you just slot medium armor and damage lines, stack weapon dmg and crits and just sprint at your opponent at speed cap to hit them with 5 different abilities at once without any gameplay whatsoever. You get hit by stupid unrealted combos like Snipe + Overload + Crushing + Pulse + Crystal Weapon + Winterborn in a single GCD. Why?

Exactly this.

Do you think skill equates running in a massive zerg over 2 ppl? Or do you think skill equates everyone running a nb in vengeance?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1

Muizer wrote: »

I mean a link to show the original intent for Vengeance was to discover and fix some elusive issue in existing Cyrodiil.

It's pretty obvious right from the start that the intent was to rebuild Cyrodiil PvP in a way that would allow large populations.

We might have hoped they'd gotten a lot closer to what is live right now before performance started to degrade, but evidently that's not the case.

If they conclude that Vengeance is now about as complicated as they can make the game, that just means over the past 10 years what they added to the game vastly exceeded capacity of the infrastructure.

If anyone wants to be angry with ZOS over something, that would be it. Not that they're finally stop promising what they cannot deliver.

My main issue here is that there are a great many things ZOS has been asked to do to make PvP in Cyrodiil a better experience and they did not make a single change.

This is what many people are angry about because the lack of effort makes it seem like ZOS had planned Vengeance from the start and used the excuse of performance monitoring to justify ramming in through.

Man you guys are embarassing...
"No ONe Is GoInG To PlAy ThIs WHeN GrEy HoSt is HEre AlSo".... then why are you here, crying about something that you believe will not impact you or your game play?

If people like this style of play - Why are you here? Crying about it as if your opinion should mean they shouldn't enjoy it? Grey Host will be an active campaign, Veng will be an active campaign. Most of you are in here arguing build diversity and blah blah blah, when we all know (myelf included) we are running a combination of the same 6 sets and 5 skill lines.

"VeNg WaS ONlY SuPpOseD tO Be A teSt" you're right, it was. And, well it was enjoyed so much it was able to grow into something A LOT of people enjoy. And you simply cannot handle that.
I hope to many of you arent losing more hair than you should.
@zos Youre doing pretty cool things. Keep up cool things. My friends in here who all run Rallying Cry do not mean any of their nonsense whining. They still enjoy the game.

I don think you've read this threads comments - People are in fact discouraged or mad about Veng being a thing. I understand you also assume myself or others wouldnt hold the same opinion should Trials or Writs go away for week. We would, so your post kinda sums up everything.

You know it all, now let me imagine what I would say about having to take away trials - but they give them some sort of other trial to do for a week, thats kinda like the other trials really watered down and turns out LOTS of people enjoy it. And yes, it sucks not having the original available, but folks will just have to tough it out. And well since you know it all you wouldve already guessed i would say the exact same thing I am saiyng now. Stop crying.

Your example is poor and about as well thought out as your insult at the end. Keep sticking to it though Champ I am sure your skills will come through at some point.

EthanolMuffins wrote: »

I never PvP'd much before I took a break and tried venegance last night, it reminds me of FF14 pvp, which I hated because there wasn't build variety. To me one of the most fun parts of ESO is the build crafting, I don't like that this game mode will take most of that away.

And you know what? That is 100% valid. Wont it be great that you will not be forced into this campaign but can play in Grey Host with the full monty of what the game has available?

Gizit wrote: »

EthanolMuffins wrote: »

I never PvP'd much before I took a break and tried venegance last night, it reminds me of FF14 pvp, which I hated because there wasn't build variety. To me one of the most fun parts of ESO is the build crafting, I don't like that this game mode will take most of that away.

And you know what? That is 100% valid. Wont it be great that you will not be forced into this campaign but can play in Grey Host with the full monty of what the game has available?

Just not right now

Gizit wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

EthanolMuffins wrote: »

I never PvP'd much before I took a break and tried venegance last night, it reminds me of FF14 pvp, which I hated because there wasn't build variety. To me one of the most fun parts of ESO is the build crafting, I don't like that this game mode will take most of that away.

And you know what? That is 100% valid. Wont it be great that you will not be forced into this campaign but can play in Grey Host with the full monty of what the game has available?

Just not right now

You know what, That is 100% valid. Do you think you will make it the next few days? The other guy mentioned trials, maybe we should all do that.

Wouldn't say that its only currently the case. With Update 50 all Cyrodiil campaigns aside Grey Host will be closed, the choice will be Grey Host or Vengeance. All the people from the 3 other campaigns, including a NoCP and an unlocked one, will be forced into CP, Alliance Locked Grey Host. And that one campaign can't sustain that many players during primetime. WHich means its either you wait in a 500+ Queue, or play Vengeance. I would call that forced and removal of an alternative.

Their decisions make me certain that any dev at Zos involved in pvp does not play in Cyrodiil at all.

Gizit wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

EthanolMuffins wrote: »

I never PvP'd much before I took a break and tried venegance last night, it reminds me of FF14 pvp, which I hated because there wasn't build variety. To me one of the most fun parts of ESO is the build crafting, I don't like that this game mode will take most of that away.

And you know what? That is 100% valid. Wont it be great that you will not be forced into this campaign but can play in Grey Host with the full monty of what the game has available?

Just not right now

You know what, That is 100% valid. Do you think you will make it the next few days? The other guy mentioned trials, maybe we should all do that.

Well, yea I live a real life so I probably won’t log in at all this week.

And don’t worry, I tried asking for Vengeance to be brought to PvE already but oh boy that crowd sure doesn’t want performance in PvE. Yet we’re the pot calling the kettle black.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685746/vengeance-ruleset-for-dungeons-etc/p1

There you go bud! I think we will both make it. AND, i think both of us will be able to enjoy either GH or Veng once both are live at the same time to our hearts content! I know I cant wait to theory craft what I am going to pair with Rallying Cry when GH is back.

FYI, in update 50, RC will be nerfed and we’ll have a lot of other changes to sets alongside class masteries and werewolf. The game will be taking some steps in the right direction finally.

Vengeance won’t though, likely best to play an Assault or Sniper loadout and spam UAVs for XP.

dcrush wrote: »

This forum thread has better pvp than Vengeance.

Better than Vengeance and Gray Host combined... I will most certainly miss these discussions; I'm afraid they might cease completely after U50, considering the current trend (there are only about five threads complaining about Vengeance, while last September there were dozens!). Perhaps repeating the same arguments over and over wore some players down.

Iriidius wrote: »

robertlabrie wrote: »

It's interesting that the anti-vengeance camp just wants our old campaigns back and the pro-vengeance camp keeps trying to explain why we're wrong and that we should learn to like it.

robertlabrie wrote: »

It's interesting that the anti-vengeance camp just wants our old campaigns back and the pro-vengeance camp keeps trying to explain why we're wrong and that we should learn to like it.

The anti-vengeance camp doesn’t just want its campaign back. They want to remove Veangence even as an option. If they asked to keep GreyHost side by side with Veangence majority of Vengeance supporters would agree but for some Vengeance haters preventing others from playing Vengeance is more important than getting GreyHost back.

We do not want to remove Vengeance as an option. We want it to be an Option aside ALL regular PvP campaigns. Instead it will be added and 3 of our campaigns will get closed for good. NoCP gone, Standard gone, below 50 gone. Instead we are stuck with CP, Alliance Lock Grey Host for more than double the current population. That will only create huge Queues, preventing us from playing. Vengeance does take something away from us, it doesn't add. Also ZOS focus should have been to fix the actual PvP, not creating a new gamemode.

L_Nici wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

robertlabrie wrote: »

It's interesting that the anti-vengeance camp just wants our old campaigns back and the pro-vengeance camp keeps trying to explain why we're wrong and that we should learn to like it.

robertlabrie wrote: »

It's interesting that the anti-vengeance camp just wants our old campaigns back and the pro-vengeance camp keeps trying to explain why we're wrong and that we should learn to like it.

The anti-vengeance camp doesn’t just want its campaign back. They want to remove Veangence even as an option. If they asked to keep GreyHost side by side with Veangence majority of Vengeance supporters would agree but for some Vengeance haters preventing others from playing Vengeance is more important than getting GreyHost back.

We do not want to remove Vengeance as an option. We want it to be an Option aside ALL regular PvP campaigns. Instead it will be added and 3 of our campaigns will get closed for good. NoCP gone, Standard gone, below 50 gone. Instead we are stuck with CP, Alliance Lock Grey Host for more than double the current population. That will only create huge Queues, preventing us from playing. Vengeance does take something away from us, it doesn't add. Also ZOS focus should have been to fix the actual PvP, not creating a new gamemode.

PCNA in reality 99% of the time u50 campaign has been dead since like clockwork after the Aussie guilds flipped the map to AD for years in a row. Then they moved to NOCP which combined with the already looming AD guilds inevitably flipping the maps nightly killing the campaigns. Then all of these guilds got bored in their own campaign and moved on to greyhost which luckily has the pop to balance them out. The 7day cp campaign turns into overflow hangout spot for ballgroups and 1vX players who hardly even fight each other, being so sweaty made the casual player guilds prefer going to GH or simply not playing.

If the campaigns are dead are we really losing much when Veng replaces them? 90% of people already sit in ques for greyhost or give up and go into bgs for the night. Atleast there is the slight benefit that the uber casual and new players have an entry point in pvp since for years u50 and nocp have been non functional. If anything it frees up que in GH.

They probably learned they cant fix live pvp because its entirely dependent on all of the proc event functions that are disabled with modern item sets, status effect, poisons, weapon enchants, passives, cp, etc. This is why the loadout perk system was made to only modify your permanent character sheet. Design wise they would have to trim ALOT of fat and then limit themselves in ways like maybe only one proc passive per class on the last unlocked bonus. Maybe only ults get crazy effects. Either way it needs to be split from PvE, then you are talking whether to design from the ground up or designing from the top down by untyng a decade long knotted ball of code.

SneaK wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

robertlabrie wrote: »

It's interesting that the anti-vengeance camp just wants our old campaigns back and the pro-vengeance camp keeps trying to explain why we're wrong and that we should learn to like it.

robertlabrie wrote: »

It's interesting that the anti-vengeance camp just wants our old campaigns back and the pro-vengeance camp keeps trying to explain why we're wrong and that we should learn to like it.

The anti-vengeance camp doesn’t just want its campaign back. They want to remove Veangence even as an option. If they asked to keep GreyHost side by side with Veangence majority of Vengeance supporters would agree but for some Vengeance haters preventing others from playing Vengeance is more important than getting GreyHost back.

We do not want to remove Vengeance as an option. We want it to be an Option aside ALL regular PvP campaigns. Instead it will be added and 3 of our campaigns will get closed for good. NoCP gone, Standard gone, below 50 gone. Instead we are stuck with CP, Alliance Lock Grey Host for more than double the current population. That will only create huge Queues, preventing us from playing. Vengeance does take something away from us, it doesn't add. Also ZOS focus should have been to fix the actual PvP, not creating a new gamemode.

PCNA in reality 99% of the time u50 campaign has been dead since like clockwork after the Aussie guilds flipped the map to AD for years in a row. Then they moved to NOCP which combined with the already looming AD guilds inevitably flipping the maps nightly killing the campaigns. Then all of these guilds got bored in their own campaign and moved on to greyhost which luckily has the pop to balance them out. The 7day cp campaign turns into overflow hangout spot for ballgroups and 1vX players who hardly even fight each other, being so sweaty made the casual player guilds prefer going to GH or simply not playing.

If the campaigns are dead are we really losing much when Veng replaces them? 90% of people already sit in ques for greyhost or give up and go into bgs for the night. Atleast there is the slight benefit that the uber casual and new players have an entry point in pvp since for years u50 and nocp have been non functional. If anything it frees up que in GH.

They probably learned they cant fix live pvp because its entirely dependent on all of the proc event functions that are disabled with modern item sets, status effect, poisons, weapon enchants, passives, cp, etc. This is why the loadout perk system was made to only modify your permanent character sheet. Design wise they would have to trim ALOT of fat and then limit themselves in ways like maybe only one proc passive per class on the last unlocked bonus. Maybe only ults get crazy effects. Either way it needs to be split from PvE, then you are talking whether to design from the ground up or designing from the top down by untyng a decade long knotted ball of code.

It’s funny, a random forum goer has ideas on how to improve performance without gutting the game, yet ZOS cannot come up with an idea to improve performance without gutting the game. Why? Cause they’d have to FIX MISTAKES they’ve made in the past, and egos would be broken.

I see it as inevitable. ESO is following a similar path that Yugioh is following. Due to monetary reasons they have to keep power creeping and one upping themselves. Let me see if this sounds familiar.
Yugioh had

• normal monsters
• effect monsters
• ritual+fusion effect monsters
• synchro effect monsters
• xyz monsters
• pendulum
• link
• >>>enter Yugioh genesis rules where they had to retcon the pendulum and link because they were too absurdly complicated and made the game unbearable pace wise. Then they hard limited what cards you can choose based on effect/power.

Obviously a card game cant lag, but the turns can become exponentially more complicated and long time wise. Just because monster(or item set) effects got multiple paragraphs of effects, did that make the game more fun? Not really, people enjoy the interactive back and forth combat. You just need to facilitate that in a smart way.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

PCNA in reality 99% of the time u50 campaign has been dead since like clockwork after the Aussie guilds flipped the map to AD for years in a row. Then they moved to NOCP which combined with the already looming AD guilds inevitably flipping the maps nightly killing the campaigns. Then all of these guilds got bored in their own campaign and moved on to greyhost which luckily has the pop to balance them out.

You left out the part where they ruined Blackreach exactly the same way: night capping and aggressive gate camping well into the start of the day in the US/Europe times making it a miserable grind for casual players wanting to cap a few resources or 3-man a keep. The AU/NZ guilds utterly destroyed the low-pop Cyrodiil campaigns.