spartaxoxo wrote: »

I honestly think people hold non-binary characters to a higher standard than other characters. Like complaining about pronouns. Wisteria is a spy for the Garland Ring and a high level person within their organization. Tanlorin is her lover. Yes, the enemies would know who Tanlorin is and therefore can be expected to use the correct pronouns.

Tanlorin is also not good at everything. And is absolutely not a perfect character. Tanlorin is childish, insecure, and canonically annoying to some people. That's a big part of why they love the Garland Ring so much. The Garland Ring "gets" Tanlorin and helped them hone their skills and accepted them for who they are while their family was abusive and they were shunned and cast out by Altmer society.

As for Wisteria's motivations, I got the same idea about her motivations as you did. She believes in Altmer supremacy but also thinks all Altmer should be equal because they're all better than the lesser races. So, she doesn't like either Aryenn or the current Altmer society and wants to reshape it into her own vision by doing a coup. Her vision as a leader of society is more important to her than her romance with Tanlorin. But she wants to have both ideally and cares for Tanlorin deeply.

Tanlorin and Wisteria spent a lot of time together. So, she got to know Tanlorin on a much deeper level than even the player gets to.

As for Tanlorin being childish. She has significantly less education than other Altmer and copes with trauma with humor. Which is actually a fairly common form of coping for people with depression. It's not crazy that a young adult from an abusive home has less formal education than others and uses humor to cope. In fact, Tanlorin actually doesn't even like books because their abuse was specifically related to education. So, them seeing a plant and being like "its crazy to think we get clothes from that," isn't out of place.

As for the style of humor, it is very much US early 2000s coded. I wouldn't be surprised if a Millennial American wrote it.

Personally I have no great problem with Tanlorin's non-binariness itself. Still, it was used so heavily in the marketing of the companion that I refrained from purchase until it became free. That is because I feared that trait would be the entirety of Tanlorin's character and the focus of the writing would be on tiresome lecturing about gender identity issues, rather like it seems to be with Taash in Dragon Age Veilguard and with some other recent games. Luckily it was not so in this case.

My biggest issue with Tanlorin is that the childishness of the character is overdone. Let her be too impulsive and irresponsible, let her crack constant juvenile jokes by all means. Manic pixie person is a character type that is fun in moderate doses. In Tanlorin's case being that indeed could easily be seen as a way to cope with her traumatic past, hiding her darker feelings under all the clowning around because she can't face them. But things like some harvesting comments, the tone of their voice at some points and certain other things are rather too like a small child, when a teenager-like brashness would be more natural. You know, cracking a joke about "having wood" for instance instead of the line about the tree "flesh chunk".

Like I said, Tanlorin is something of a wasted opportunity. I agree with most of your thoughts, but the presentation of the character is flawed and left half-baked like with much in that questline. With a more thoughtful handling Tanlorin would appear much more sympathetic, because the audience could see more clearly why they are the way they are.

Yeah, much of the humor is precisely the LOL-random style that was "in" 15 to 20 years ago. Some things don't age well...

(As a side note, I have to say "they" is rather awkward to use as a singular person pronoun. I'll never understand why Indo-Europeans had to develop a gendered language in the first place. We Finno-Ugric speakers have just one gender-neutral third person singular pronoun for persons and another for animals and things, and manage with those well enough. No problems with choosing the right pronouns!)

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I honestly think people hold non-binary characters to a higher standard than other characters. Like complaining about pronouns.

For some maybe. But at the same time I'm not going to lower my standards because they are non-binary either. I personally think they did a disservice writing Tanlorin to be off-putting to many people if they wanted positive non-binary representation.

If Zerith-Var ended up using nonbinary pronouns for whatever reason I honestly would not care at all as he's otherwise a cool character with a great story.

I agree with this.

If the only thing that changed about Zerith's storyline was that he now used They/Them, then it would still be a great story line. If the only thing about Tan's storyline that changed was that they now used 'She/Her' or even 'He/Him', then I would still think it was a flawed storyline and that the character itself wasn't that good of a character.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I honestly think people hold non-binary characters to a higher standard than other characters. Like complaining about pronouns. Wisteria is a spy for the Garland Ring and a high level person within their organization. Tanlorin is her lover. Yes, the enemies would know who Tanlorin is and therefore can be expected to use the correct pronouns.

More often I see Tanlorin's gender being used as a shield so people who dare to criticize this character's writing can be silenced by labelling them as "bigots".

But yes, I actually agree that people might have higher standards when it comes to Tanlorin. Specifically LGBT+ people, actually, including people who aren't cis. I've discussed Tanlorin in my "circles", and there are people who are more than unhappy with the fact that the first non-binary character that got a bigger narration in ESO is such a dumb, obnoxious character. For many people, especially outside the USA, Tanlorin was their first contact with the topic. At all. Non-binary is not a concept in many countries; unless you follow US-American media, you won't know it even exists. People tend to stereotype, so if this is what "a non-binary character" is presented them as, what impression does that leave? Are LGBT+ people, including trans and non-binary people, not allowed to be concerned about that "representation"?

I also didn't see anyone complaining about Tanlorin's gender in this thread, by the way, just people wondering if it's plausible that enemies would know - fine, if Wisteria told them - and respect it. I don't think an enemy would be respectful.

What was also discussed was how the topic of people who aren't, or don't identify (or aren't identified by their society, which is another different thing), as either male or female could be turned into an interesting story clearly related to TES lore. If ZOS wants to make it a topic in a future story (I know it was not the topic of Tanlorin's story, but how this specific topic could come up in ESO came up in the discussion here), there's so much TES lore already there that could be built upon.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tanlorin is also not good at everything. And is absolutely not a perfect character. Tanlorin is childish, insecure, and canonically annoying to some people.

It's a really not very intelligent person with a much too high status in the story for that level of intelligence. Too capable, and of course admired by oh so many people. It feels implausible, and that's why I said this character feels like some "Mary Sue" type character. Which isn't exactly perceived as good, skilled writing by many people.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As for Tanlorin being childish. She has significantly less education than other Altmer and copes with trauma with humor. Which is actually a fairly common form of coping for people with depression. It's not crazy that a young adult from an abusive home has less formal education than others and uses humor to cope.

I had several friends who had a horrible life when growing up. They were intellectually absolutely on my level. I've come across the assumption, too, many times, that people who had a bad family necessarily grew up to be somehow "damaged" (mentally ill, or uneducated, or socially struggling, etc) and honestly? It's a prejudice hurting the people in question, because it makes other people immediately think of them as less capable than they really are. Which can cause trouble when it comes to school or job issues. Also, people might think of them as being troubled and therefore difficult to be around, which might make them avoid them, which is another problem.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As for the style of humor, it is very much US early 2000s coded. I wouldn't be surprised if a Millennial American wrote it.

Then all I can say is that it doesn't function abroad. To make clear: ESO is an American product, so I don't expect it to cater to the humour of other countries. But I still want to mention that it doesn't function, as that might be interesting to know if one tries to sell a product internationally.

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I honestly think people hold non-binary characters to a higher standard than other characters. Like complaining about pronouns.

For some maybe. But at the same time I'm not going to lower my standards because they are non-binary either. I personally think they did a disservice writing Tanlorin to be off-putting to many people if they wanted positive non-binary representation.

If Zerith-Var ended up using nonbinary pronouns for whatever reason I honestly would not care at all as he's otherwise a cool character with a great story.

Okay but when the criticism is stuff like people afraid it would be woke, or that the bad guys know the gender of their bosses girlfriend, or they went in scared it would be lecture...those aren't really standards that non-lgbtq+ characters have to meet at all.

I agree that Tanlorin doesn't have great writing. They use a very specific style of humor that was purposely cringe at the time period and has only aged poorly since then. It belongs in the past with such jokes as "rawr! That means I love you in dinosaur," and "can I haz cheeseburger," and "UwU 👉👈🥺 want to matchy match?"

But like also, that was very much a pretty common type of joke for young women back in the day. It was just goofing around. It's the same type of absurdist humor that gave us Sheogorath tbh. Tanlorin probably would come across more Tamriel if they were a follower of Sheo, now that I think of it.

BretonMage wrote: »

I think about this a lot, having seen comments like this about Tan and the other controversial NB character, Taash from Dragon Age. While I totally understand the desire for LGBT+ communities to see representation that they can be "proud of", I think it was also important for the writers to stress that they don't have to be this model minority that people are expecting.

I'm not talking about a "model minority". I don't want or need a character to be "proud of" either (I generally reject group think, I don't even see myself as part of any community, I just have and had friends with all kinds of different backgrounds, including people who'd fall under the LGBT+ acronym like myself - and yes, of course we're talking about media nonsense and how these depictions might ruin our reputation by showing people who love to label others, and put them in boxes by these labels, off-putting depictions).

That said, I absolutely don't expect a fictional LGBT+ character to be perfect, genius level intelligent, capable and whatnot in every regard. Because in real life, we aren't perfect either. We're all just humans with all the variety in human characters, interests, talents, etc, that exists. Some are dumb, some intelligent. Some introverted, some extroverted. Some live a very mainstream life, others don't. Exactly like people who aren't LGBT+. So, yes, of course a LGBT+ character in ESO could also be dumb, or evil, or annoying, or racist, or a human-sacrificing cannibalistic Namira cultist. But the smaller the minority, and the less familiar the masses are, I don't think it exactly helps to publish a depiction that's rather off-putting to many people. Because media depiction influences how people think of "groups" (or people they put in these groups by some character trait or aspect of their being). So there's a certain responsibility, from my point of view.

As I said, I don't expect LGBT+ characters in ESO to be depicted as some kind of awesome super humans, but something not annoying to so many people could surely have been done? I mean, we got Isobel as a character before. Who some people found bland, I think, but at least not irritating. Her being lesbian, or more precisely the fact that she's in love with Aurelia, was central to her questline. I don't think anyone was bothered by that.

BretonMage wrote: »

It's ok to be yourself, imperfect and loud.

It's also okay to reject people who are annoying and loud, no matter their identity or orientation. Not everyone needs to like everyone.

AScarlato wrote: »

I mean, people don't really like being lectured to in entertainment about modern social issues when they are playing a fantasy game in an entirely different setting. Characters in veilguard sitting around in a circle and correcting each other about pronouns is cringe, even more so that this happens more than once in the story, and I'm sure people are afraid that they would get more of that. Luckily that didn't happen here.

Oh, but nothing says "fantasy adventure" quite as much as having the character's preach smugly about their identities, in a vocabulary and style that are wholly out of place in the world they supposedly inhabit! Sarcasm aside, Syldras is right about this issue. Nothing wrong with having characters that are different from "normal" in a fantasy story, but it must be handled in a way that fits the world of the story.

Besides, at least I won't pay for hearing lectures about something that doesn't really interest me in a way that insults my intelligence, like so many so-called entertainment media does today. I pay for having a good time and maybe exploring interesting ideas and worlds. So I agree with you whole-heartedly on this.

AScarlato wrote: »

As far as the "woke" thing, it's overdone and I'm tired of people that just dismiss everything they dislike as "woke" for no reason. They do it for women simply existing as main characters, people of other races, all kinds of things and it's just eye-rolling to me. That's not the same thing as asking questions about the narrative, and if someone's discourse is yelling "woke" when they see a character that isn't a cis white male I simply don't engage with them personally.

Yes. The hyper-sensitiveness about smelling "wokeness" everywhere is tiring, too. Heck, by the most insane standards even Tolkien of all people was woke, because he wrote Galadriel and Eowyn as having important roles! That hysteria is an unnecessary, but maybe unavoidable, overreaction to the Veilguard-style activist writing that has crept into every media. I wish this stupid polarization and strive towards ideological purity would cease and telling good stories would be returned to the centre of the artistic intention. All kinds of fanatics are so exhausting.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree that Tanlorin doesn't have great writing. They use a very specific style of humor that was purposely cringe at the time period and has only aged poorly since then. It belongs in the past with such jokes as "rawr! That means I love you in dinosaur," and "can I haz cheeseburger," and "UwU 👉👈🥺 want to matchy match?"
But like also, that was very much a pretty common type of joke for young women back in the day. It was just goofing around.

And that's what I meant with: That writing might just not function in other cultures. I was in my teens in the early to mid 2000s, and I never came across that type of humour. That's not how young people here talked like at all. It actually feels very outlandish to me and only makes me think: "Why would someone above age 5 talk like that?" or "What's funny about that?" I don't blame anyone for talking like that, because, obviously, different cultures have different habits, I'm trying to describe that for people who live outside a culture where that humour was common, it feels completely random and confusing.

That's also why I think including memes into ESO isn't a good idea, because a big part of the international playerbase will not understand them now, and probably even less so in 5 or 10 years.

I think something else that should be discussed is the companion vs NPC.

If Tan had been an NPC in the companion questline, and the actual companion was someone like Hyacinth or even Wisteria, I think that Tan would have probably been accepted more readily, even without a single change in personality.

But, it is the difference between 'I see this character a few times, so, while their personality can be annoying, I can put up with it' vs 'This is a character that is meant to be a major part of the quest lines, through being a companion to me, I don't want a personality that is so annoying'.

This is also the difference between 'one and done' NPCs and recurring characters. If a character is recurring they are often held to higher standards than a character that you meet once and then move on once their quest/part in the quest is finished.

Tan is meant to be one of the 'highest' forms of recurring character, a companion that the player character is meant to want to have travel with them. I don't want Tan's story line to change, I am glad that there are people who like them.

But, I wish that Tan had had a personality that I liked and that their story line had been better written. Because while I can see Wisteria telling people about Tan's pronouns, I don't know exactly how widespread that would have traveled, and I don't know how well that would have been respected, especially since Tan was an enemy and someone that was supposed to be taken out of the way. Especially since it is seemingly an unusual choice in TES lore. Sure, we have had other 'they/them' characters, but it doesn't seem to be a widespread phenomenon, nor do I imagine it would be accepted everywhere.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Sure, we have had other 'they/them' characters, but it doesn't seem to be a widespread phenomenon, nor do I imagine it would be accepted everywhere.

One of the things I like about Elder Scrolls is I haven't really seen anyone care about gender/sexuality stuff at all - as opposed to race where there is a lot of built-in drama there.

No one caring I feel is a nice way to avoid the Veilguard approach to gender/sexuality. I haven't seen anyone making comments about any of the same-sex couples. Or that argonian questline where they can change genders. I have a feeling in this universe if someone decided they were non-binary there wouldn't be much conversation about whether it is accepted or not, it would just be accepted and people just move ahead as though this is simply who they are.

I could be wrong, I can't really remember clearly if Alchemy ran into any discrimination or if that was something they put on themselves. I recall Alchemy's sister/friend (it's been a few years, I can't remember) being very accepting and not judgmental if I remember correctly.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Sure, we have had other 'they/them' characters, but it doesn't seem to be a widespread phenomenon, nor do I imagine it would be accepted everywhere.

One of the things I like about Elder Scrolls is I haven't really seen anyone care about gender/sexuality stuff at all - as opposed to race where there is a lot of built-in drama there.

No one caring I feel is a nice way to avoid the Veilguard approach to gender/sexuality. I haven't seen anyone making comments about any of the same-sex couples. Or that argonian questline where they can change genders. I have a feeling in this universe if someone decided they were non-binary there wouldn't be much conversation about whether it is accepted or not, it would just be accepted and people just move ahead as though this is simply who they are.

I could be wrong, I can't really remember clearly if Alchemy ran into any discrimination or if that was something they put on themselves. I recall Alchemy's sister/friend (it's been a few years, I can't remember) being very accepting and not judgmental if I remember correctly.

I actually just went to look up Alchemy because I thought that there had been discrimination there, but I couldn't really find anything about it. I had thought that there had been a problem with her living as a woman, but it seems like it was more about Alchemy not joining the Sapiarchs than anything else.

Thanks for looking that up - my memory was really hazy there. Nothing stood out in my memory though so it seems it falls in line with other questline where people don't care all that much and more care about other things about the characters.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Modern storytelling not allowing messaging if it's not the correct messages is very much part of the higher standards.

And if you can't address pronouns directly by having characters discuss them but you also can't just make it undiscussed and automatic, then it becomes a spot where you can't have such a character at all because the standards are impossible.

Also all of the henchman are literally sent by Tanlorin's girlfriend. It would weird for them not to know.

It's great you came up with a plausible explanation as to how they know. You could state as much without assuming whatever is being assumed by people who asked about it who may have missed this. Honestly fans of fiction often discuss plot holes about anything and everything - and sometimes there are explanations that can be considered and that's fine.

I still think discussions about that really are secondary to the fact that Tanlorin simply isn't very likable to many people and is polarizing, and would be whether they were nonbinary or not.

I haven't assumed anything about anyone in particular. But, I think it's important to talk about how nonbinary characters are held to higher standards when it comes to quality of writing when discussing Tanlorin. Because so much of the discourse centers around their non-binary identity, even when the story really doesn't. Other than Tanlorin having they/them pronouns, it really doesn't factor in at all. And I think it can be important to examine and understand how these things can impact our understanding and feelings towards these characters. Because sometimes their can be unconcious bias in even the otherwise most thoughtful, intelligent, and fair-minded people.

I'm just saying there are threads about the quality of writing, and us really delving deep into all kinds of questlines on these forums. We scrutinize how characters are written, and if they fit past lore and the setting. This is not unique to Tanlorin. Most threads here don't discuss Tanlorin at all because they are about other questlines. The level of detail being discussed across the forums can be intense. What can be viewed as very small details are discussed at length.

While it's possible some people will be extra critical of Tanlorin solely because they are nonbinary, I haven't seen that here in this thread. I won't say it never happens, as I have seen it on Reddit and Twitter, where people are very negative about this aspect of their identity being included at all.

Some may wonder if they/them pronouns were a thing in the lore previously for the general population o elves, as opposed to other genderless beings like daedra or characters that were viewed as exceptional, or if it is a recent addition due to modern culture issues. And if that is the case, how should we view that? Is it good writing to add to the lore in this way? It can be another topic of discussion as to whether such characters existed all along, or not.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Modern storytelling not allowing messaging if it's not the correct messages is very much part of the higher standards.

And if you can't address pronouns directly by having characters discuss them but you also can't just make it undiscussed and automatic, then it becomes a spot where you can't have such a character at all because the standards are impossible.

Also all of the henchman are literally sent by Tanlorin's girlfriend. It would weird for them not to know.

It's great you came up with a plausible explanation as to how they know. You could state as much without assuming whatever is being assumed by people who asked about it who may have missed this. Honestly fans of fiction often discuss plot holes about anything and everything - and sometimes there are explanations that can be considered and that's fine.

I still think discussions about that really are secondary to the fact that Tanlorin simply isn't very likable to many people and is polarizing, and would be whether they were nonbinary or not.

I haven't assumed anything about anyone in particular. But, I think it's important to talk about how nonbinary characters are held to higher standards when it comes to quality of writing when discussing Tanlorin. Because so much of the discourse centers around their non-binary identity, even when the story really doesn't. Other than Tanlorin having they/them pronouns, it really doesn't factor in at all. And I think it can be important to examine and understand how these things can impact our understanding and feelings towards these characters. Because sometimes their can be unconcious bias in even the otherwise most thoughtful, intelligent, and fair-minded people.

I'm just saying there are threads about the quality of writing, and us really delving deep into all kinds of questlines on these forums. We scrutinize how characters are written, and if they fit past lore and the setting. This is not unique to Tanlorin. Most threads here don't discuss Tanlorin at all because they are about other questlines. The level of detail being discussed across the forums can be intense. What can be viewed as very small details are discussed at length.

While it's possible some people will be extra critical of Tanlorin solely because they are nonbinary, I haven't seen that here in this thread. I won't say it never happens, as I have seen it on Reddit and Twitter, where people are very negative about this aspect of their identity being included at all.

Some may wonder if they/them pronouns were a thing in the lore previously for the general population o elves, as opposed to other genderless beings like daedra or characters that were viewed as exceptional, or if it is a recent addition due to modern culture issues. And if that is the case, how should we view that? Is it good writing to add to the lore in this way? It can be another topic of discussion as to whether such characters existed all along, or not.

I never said that anyone who dislikes Tanlorin does so purely because they're nonbinary. I even pointed out another one holding Tanlorin back, which was the cringe absurdist humor used in their dialogue. Which was too modern and very much gives young American women in the 2000s.

I'm just pointing out that how their non-binary status can result in the story being held to a higher standard. This honestly true of many stories featuring minorities. I think it's good to examine how unconscious biases can influence our opinion on such things from time to time.

We all have them. It doesn't make a person bad or hateful.

That can be true of some people. But here we hold pretty much all stories to high standards. Even light-hearted event quests like the recent Heart's Day quests. So if it feels like nitpicking, we kind of do that to everything

Syldras wrote: »

Tesman85 wrote: »

I don't hate Tanlorin, actually, but the character's infantile writing does grate me at times. I think it's implied that Tanlorin isn't actually at the level of a five-year-old, but only ironically pretends to be like some Gen Z or millennial of our days who fears nothing more than to appear "boring", that is, adult and serious. The character is a symptom of the postmodern fear of seriousness. Even their voice and acting is otherwise good, but for some reason the accent has to be the lazy, annoyingly loose drawl of a modern-day US hipster. Tanlorin is a wasted opportunity.

I'm a millenial. When I was a teen, most of my classmates rather tried to appear more adult than they actually were, because they wanted to be taken seriously and seen as responsible, capable and intelligent by adults (which meant, simply, people trusting you more, and therefore more freedom). No one would have infantilized themselves by choice. It would have been perceived as very, very embarrassing. And as young adults? They were living their lives, studying, some started a business, many were in a relationship. Put short: They succeeded on their path into life. Babbling like a preschooler would have brought them nowhere, neither in academics, job matters nor in personal relationships. It's really a mystery to me how that weird baby talk would appeal to anyone. I don't live in North America, though, so maybe in my culture, things are different. I often wonder if something feels "weird" to me in ESO's writing, that specific plot, or reasoning, or the values depicted there, might just not really work for cultures outside the US (or North America, or the West, or whatever it might be).

Toddler talk aside, parts of Tanlorin's design also come across as annoyingly pseudo-rebellious to me. We also had them here back then: Kids trying very hard to be "special" (while not actually being special). Most often teen girls, and most often those who were horrendousbly boring and had no real talents they could impress anyone with. So, while others got their peer recognition by being able to play guitar, or paint, or being good at sports, or having some interesting hobbies or impressing knowledge, they went all "Look at me! I'm so special! I'm a rebel! I'm not like the others!" They didn't notice no one found that cool. But of course, in Tanlorin's case, everyone applauds and Tanlorin is super capable of everything, and lives that "fulfilled" life with lots of alcohol, parties and sex (which would also be seen as very immature life goals in my culture, by the way), and of course, is also a cool spy and fighting for the correct things which are currently frequent media topics, because it's a silly Mary Sue stereotype/fantasy. Makes me wonder if this writing was an attempt to appeal to a certain young audience, basically providing them with a power fantasy character of what they'd rather be than a boring kid, not understanding that many don't find that cool, but cringe (unless boring pseudo-rebels themselves, probably, but I'm not sure if many of them actually play ESO).

Tesman85 wrote: »

In fact, I'd like to see a High Elf companion like Wisteria much rather than what we got. Someone competent, intelligent, driven and disciplined. In sum, a character that would embody more traditional Altmer virtues even if his/her story would test and question the value of those virtues. I'd enjoy that. Of course, it would be a bonus if the said companion also would be a pretty lady like W...

My preference would be a male Altmer scholar, but, yes, Wisteria would also have been more interesting than Tanlorin. It's truly a pity that it often feels like companions were designed exactly to not be a typical member of their culture. TES has such a rich lore background for all its fictional cultures, so many interesting characters and stories could be written about exactly that, telling us more about cultural values and differences in upbringing in different regions of Tamriel, through showing us people who grew up in these cultures, and how that might have influenced them.

Im from the US and agree with most of this. Granted I haven't actually finished her/their quest, bu I did get the impression, like with the nickname/handle that their teammates were less than confident in them. My theory is that in her past life she was rich and very sheltered. Those tattoos couldn't have been cheap, and now that she haas freedom, is stereotypically rebelling against her strict upbringing, and that shes in way over her head with the spy stuff and has no idea of course.