understanding timing with new DK skills?

Theignson · March 30

PvP.

Ive now had at least 3 fights where DKs hit me with 3 abilities in one global cooldown. No, this was not lag (ping 100-140 ms). Here are the logs:
THE NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED IN ACCORD WITH ZOS RULES

[178.537s] DK one hits you with Take Flight for 3007.
[178.542s] DK one critically hits you with Burning for 978.
[178.770s] DK one critically hits you with Igneous Weapons for 937.
[178.771s] DK one hits you with Light Attack (Dual Wield) for 1341.
[178.774s] DK one hits you with Molten Whip for 5942.
[178.781s] DK one critically hits you with Shattering Rocks for 2992.

That is take flight, molten whip, and shattering rocks all hitting within .3 seconds. NOT supposed to be possible! Even if they managed to time the shattering rocks to expire "exactly" when the other two skills hit, it shouldn't be possible for take flight and molten whip to hit in the same gcd.

[12.774s] DK two hits you with Molten Whip for 6261.
[13.137s] DK two critically hits you with Burning for 1037.
[13.528s] DK two hits you with Shattering Rocks for 1872.
[13.531s] DK two hits you with Burning for 638.
[13.567s] DK two critically hits you with Soul of Flame for 6599.

That is Molten whip, shattering rocks, and soul of flame all hitting within 1 GCD. FPS 74, ping 105 ms
Again, even if they exactly timed their shattering rocks to expire, molten whip and soul of flame should not be able to hit in one GCD.

The common thing seems to be molten whip . Is this a new exploit or some kind of bug? Or am I missing some mechanic

Turtle_Bot · March 30

No exploit going on here, just simple delayed damage being stacked correctly to land a big burst of damage within 1 GCD.

From what I can tell, the internal GCD starts upon activating an ability, not when it lands, so:
- Shattering rocks procs it's damage when it ends (or you break free) but is actually cast 1.5-2s before the combo lands due to having the 1 second delay before it attempts to stun it's target, then the additional delay of breaking free/ending before it deals it's damage instance.
- Leap is cast next, assuming a 0.5-0.8s air-time for them to travel to you, even in melee range (shattering rocks is now ~0.8s away from landing it's delayed damage when leap is cast).
- Molten whip is cast last since it is instant and deals it's damage on cast, due to not being delayed nor having a travel time/projectile, thus it hits at the same time (or with milliseconds) of leap landing and shattering rocks proccing it's delayed damage.

They all land within 1 GCD, due to being cast in the above order and due to the different timings on when each ability deals it's damage instance.

It's the same thing Sorcs used to do years ago with curse + fury + overload + frags proc, and sub-classed builds did since U46 by stacking delayed burst (shulks/blast bones + spec bow) in the correct order to all land their damage at the same time.

Soul of flame is on a 4 second delay after activating it for it's damage instance, so it's even easier to time with the combo than leap is.

This is one of the frustrating things I find about delayed damage and the lack of explaining mechanics in this game, because it's too easy for those who don't know or understand the mechanics of stacking/delaying damage and utilizing the timings of different abilities delays to simply call "cheats" or "exploits" because "2 or more abilities hit them within 1 GCD", when the 1 cast per GCD is referring to the activation of abilities, not when they land their damage instances.

Sorcs been suffering from this issue (and getting heavily nerfed for it) for years because it's entire kit is designed around stacking multiple abilities to land their damage instances within 1 GCD due to the different timings (delay, travel time, cast animation, etc.) on each ability, so far too many players call "cheating" when in reality, that's just how Sorcs kit was designed to work, not just 1 damage instance landing every GCD.

CameraBeardThePirate · March 30

A lot of people don't really understand how the global cooldown works (through no fault of their own as ZOS doesn't really explain it).

Abilities have a 1 second GCD. This starts at the moment you press the button, not the moment the skill actually casts. This means that abilities with a cast time can be almost immediately followed by other abilities; for example, an ability cast after Snipe will cast only 0.2 seconds later as opposed to a full second, since Snipe has a cast time of 0.8 seconds. Travel time also matters, so projectile based abilities and gap closers can land closer to subsequent abilities than something like Surprise Attack.

Some abilities have built in delays as well, such as Blastbones, Shalks, Curse, Power of the Light, Incinerate, and in your example, Soul of Flame. These abilities can be cast a few seconds before a combo and will line up with your combo to deal damage at the same time as another ability, making them extremely powerful.

Light Attacks also have a cooldown of about 1 second, but this cooldown is separate from your ability cooldown. This is where Light Attack weaving comes into play. You can land a Light Attack (or a Medium or Heavy attack) at about the same time as an ability by pressing Light Attack just before the ability. Skills that add damage to Light Attacks (such as Crushing Weapon, Crystal Weapon, or in your example, Molten Weapon) are therefore extremely powerful in PvP as you can stack an instance of damage alongside another ability.

Bashes have a cooldown of 0.33 seconds, and can be performed before or after an ability for a bit of extra damage. The damage of bashes was nerfed unless you spec quite heavily into them, so this doesn't come up too often but you'll occasionally see this on a death recap as well.

Lastly, Enchants, Poisons, and Proc sets all have their own cooldowns and will be able to line up with other damage as well.

React · March 30

Nothing sketchy at all about what you've shared here.

[12.774s] Sketchy DK two hits you with Molten Whip for 6261.
[13.137s] Sketchy DK two critically hits you with Burning for 1037.
[13.528s] Sketchy DK two hits you with Shattering Rocks for 1872.
[13.531s] Sketchy DK two hits you with Burning for 638.
[13.567s] Sketchy DK two critically hits you with Soul of Flame for 6599.

In this example, soul of flame is a delayed burst that fires after four seconds. Shattering rocks is a delayed stun that stuns after one second, and deals it's damage when you break free. Molten whip is instant, and burning status effects can happen at any moment from any source of flame damage.

So this person cast soul of flame, then 2 seconds later cast shattering rocks, then whipped you on the next GCD. Resulting in all the damage applying within one global cooldown.

[178.537s] Sketchy DK one hits you with Take Flight for 3007.
[178.542s] Sketchy DK one critically hits you with Burning for 978.
[178.770s] Sketchy DK one critically hits you with Igneous Weapons for 937.
[178.771s] Sketchy DK one hits you with Light Attack (Dual Wield) for 1341.
[178.774s] Sketchy DK one hits you with Molten Whip for 5942.
[178.781s] Sketchy DK one critically hits you with Shattering Rocks for 2992.

I'm not sure you quite understand how igneous weapons works - this is a pre buff that causes your light/heavy attacks to deal damage that shows up as "igneous weapons", so it'll always appear in the same GCD as weaves.

Take flight has a travel time even at point blank, which means that it won't deal it's damage in the GCD it is casted during. So what you're seeing in this example is someone doing Shattering rocks, take flight, then light attack -> molten whip.

But these examples aren't anywhere near what is actually possible at the high end. If I was to do Incinerate -> soul of flame -> corrosive -> shattering rocks -> Light attack/molten whip/bash, you might see as many as 6 abilities dealing damage to you in one GCD, and even more instances of damage when considering things like quick cloak, shatterspike mantle, glyphs, status effects, etc.

The ability to layer burst damage like this is what allows people to be killed in modern eso. Without these mechanics, we'd all be slapping eachother with pool noodles and never dying through the absurd self healing and mitigation we have today.

HarfnUA · March 30

React wrote: »

Take flight has a travel time even at point blank, which means that it won't deal it's damage in the GCD it is casted during. So what you're seeing in this example is someone doing Shattering rocks, take flight, then light attack -> molten whip.

The best way to do it is: Incinerate (5 second to hit) + Soul of Flame (4 second to hit) + light attack + Disintegrating Dragonfire + Shattering rocks (1 second to hit) + Take flight + light attack + Molten whip. Everything explodes at once. Something like Incap + Shalks

Mrtoobyy · March 30

The game is 12 years old, it is 2026 and ZOS still have not managed to get alot of the basics going for this game.
My advice is not to give them any more money this year until every new thing has been added. There will come alot of more bugs...

randconfig · March 30

Looks legit to me. I recommend getting the Combat Metrics addon to log all your combat for analyzing and watching some tutorials on light attack weaving/animation canceling, and understanding the global cooldown (GCD).

Also the Combat Metronome is a great addon to help you see and hear your GCD with a ton of customization options. It's a great tool to help you learn light attack weaving/animation canceling.

Theignson · March 30

React wrote: »

Nothing sketchy at all about what you've shared here.

In this example, soul of flame is a delayed burst that fires after four seconds. Shattering rocks is a delayed stun that stuns after one second, and deals it's damage when you break free. Molten whip is instant, and burning status effects can happen at any moment from any source of flame damage.

So this person cast soul of flame, then 2 seconds later cast shattering rocks, then whipped you on the next GCD. Resulting in all the damage applying within one global cooldown.

I'm not sure you quite understand how igneous weapons works - this is a pre buff that causes your light/heavy attacks to deal damage that shows up as "igneous weapons", so it'll always appear in the same GCD as weaves.

Take flight has a travel time even at point blank, which means that it won't deal it's damage in the GCD it is casted during. So what you're seeing in this example is someone doing Shattering rocks, take flight, then light attack -> molten whip.

But these examples aren't anywhere near what is actually possible at the high end. If I was to do Incinerate -> soul of flame -> corrosive -> shattering rocks -> Light attack/molten whip/bash, you might see as many as 6 abilities dealing damage to you in one GCD, and even more instances of damage when considering things like quick cloak, shatterspike mantle, glyphs, status effects, etc.

The ability to layer burst damage like this is what allows people to be killed in modern eso. Without these mechanics, we'd all be slapping eachother with pool noodles and never dying through the absurd self healing and mitigation we have today.

React,
I was only highlighting the abilities (as I stated after the logs), not the enchantments/pre buffs like burning, igneous. They are in there only because I wanted to show the unchanged log
your last example with incinerate won't work, because shattering rocks is a 5 second delay before the damage: 1 second snare, 4 second stun, then the damage hits. Incinerate is also 5 second delay.
Since shattering rocks is 5 seconds, then, In the first scenario they had to 1) cast shattering rocks, 2) wait one second, cast soul of flame, wait 4 seconds and 3) cast molten whip, is that right? How to time those casts so that they land within .1 milliseconds? Is that an addon? Or just "muscle memory" like light attack canceling? If it is "muscle memory" there should be a variance in when the different abilities hit in a large sample size
In the second log above, He had to 1) cast shattering rocks, 2) wait 4.5 seconds, cast Take flight, 3) cancel take flight with molten whip.

I was aware of course that you have to stack damage, the old example is shalks/dizzying swing/executioner. But in that scenario Dizzy has a delay. I didn't realize that Take flight has a delay even if point blank.

Anyway thanks for the exegesis!

Theignson · March 30

HarfnUA wrote: »

React wrote: »

Take flight has a travel time even at point blank, which means that it won't deal it's damage in the GCD it is casted during. So what you're seeing in this example is someone doing Shattering rocks, take flight, then light attack -> molten whip.

The best way to do it is: Incinerate (5 second to hit) + Soul of Flame (4 second to hit) + light attack + Disintegrating Dragonfire + Shattering rocks (1 second to hit) + Take flight + light attack + Molten whip. Everything explodes at once. Something like Incap + Shalks

The damage from shattering rocks is after 5 seconds, right? Here is the description on ESO skillbook:
Encase an enemy in molten rock, reducing their movement speed by 50% for 1 second. Upon completion, the target is stunned for 4 seconds, or 8 seconds against monsters. After the stun ends, the target takes 1379 Flame Damage

And otherwise I dont see how you could combine LA+Disintegrating+ shattering in one GCD, maybe you mean a previously cast Disintegrating?

But in general I see how you can make burst with the new DK!

Theignson · March 30

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

No exploit going on here, just simple delayed damage being stacked correctly to land a big burst of damage within 1 GCD.

From what I can tell, the internal GCD starts upon activating an ability, not when it lands, so:
- Shattering rocks procs it's damage when it ends (or you break free) but is actually cast 1.5-2s before the combo lands due to having the 1 second delay before it attempts to stun it's target, then the additional delay of breaking free/ending before it deals it's damage instance.
- Leap is cast next, assuming a 0.5-0.8s air-time for them to travel to you, even in melee range (shattering rocks is now ~0.8s away from landing it's delayed damage when leap is cast).
- Molten whip is cast last since it is instant and deals it's damage on cast, due to not being delayed nor having a travel time/projectile, thus it hits at the same time (or with milliseconds) of leap landing and shattering rocks proccing it's delayed damage.
.

Oh, this is the key. Shattering rocks if you just stand there only does damage after 5 seconds (1 second snare, 4 second stun, then damage). But since I break free right away, the damage hit me at that moment, right? So I myself played the key role in getting them all to hit at once!

I knew about all the old delayed combos, I use them all the time on my sorc, used to use the old shalks/dizzy/executioner, incap/bow; just didnt realize how you could do it with this new skill set. Thanks for the post!

ruskiii · March 31

Theignson wrote: »

Oh, this is the key. Shattering rocks if you just stand there only does damage after 5 seconds (1 second snare, 4 second stun, then damage). But since I break free right away, the damage hit me at that moment, right? So I myself played the key role in getting them all to hit at once!

I knew about all the old delayed combos, I use them all the time on my sorc, used to use the old shalks/dizzy/executioner, incap/bow; just didnt realize how you could do it with this new skill set. Thanks for the post!

It's not just the revamped skills tho, the examples you originally posted as bugs have been staple delayed burst combos for DK as long as I've been playing the game (5 years), and probably for much longer than that.

React · March 31

Theignson wrote: »

React wrote: »

Nothing sketchy at all about what you've shared here.

In this example, soul of flame is a delayed burst that fires after four seconds. Shattering rocks is a delayed stun that stuns after one second, and deals it's damage when you break free. Molten whip is instant, and burning status effects can happen at any moment from any source of flame damage.

So this person cast soul of flame, then 2 seconds later cast shattering rocks, then whipped you on the next GCD. Resulting in all the damage applying within one global cooldown.

I'm not sure you quite understand how igneous weapons works - this is a pre buff that causes your light/heavy attacks to deal damage that shows up as "igneous weapons", so it'll always appear in the same GCD as weaves.

Take flight has a travel time even at point blank, which means that it won't deal it's damage in the GCD it is casted during. So what you're seeing in this example is someone doing Shattering rocks, take flight, then light attack -> molten whip.

But these examples aren't anywhere near what is actually possible at the high end. If I was to do Incinerate -> soul of flame -> corrosive -> shattering rocks -> Light attack/molten whip/bash, you might see as many as 6 abilities dealing damage to you in one GCD, and even more instances of damage when considering things like quick cloak, shatterspike mantle, glyphs, status effects, etc.

The ability to layer burst damage like this is what allows people to be killed in modern eso. Without these mechanics, we'd all be slapping eachother with pool noodles and never dying through the absurd self healing and mitigation we have today.

React,
I was only highlighting the abilities (as I stated after the logs), not the enchantments/pre buffs like burning, igneous. They are in there only because I wanted to show the unchanged log
your last example with incinerate won't work, because shattering rocks is a 5 second delay before the damage: 1 second snare, 4 second stun, then the damage hits. Incinerate is also 5 second delay.
Since shattering rocks is 5 seconds, then, In the first scenario they had to 1) cast shattering rocks, 2) wait one second, cast soul of flame, wait 4 seconds and 3) cast molten whip, is that right? How to time those casts so that they land within .1 milliseconds? Is that an addon? Or just "muscle memory" like light attack canceling? If it is "muscle memory" there should be a variance in when the different abilities hit in a large sample size
In the second log above, He had to 1) cast shattering rocks, 2) wait 4.5 seconds, cast Take flight, 3) cancel take flight with molten whip.

I was aware of course that you have to stack damage, the old example is shalks/dizzying swing/executioner. But in that scenario Dizzy has a delay. I didn't realize that Take flight has a delay even if point blank.

Anyway thanks for the exegesis!

Like others have said, shattering deals it's damage when the stun ends naturally or when you break free of it. Take flight does indeed have a delay even if used point blank.

Theignson wrote: »

Even if they managed to time the shattering rocks to expire "exactly" when the other two skills hit, it shouldn't be possible for take flight and molten weapons to hit in the same gcd.

When you typed the bolded part above, I assumed you were confused about the igneous weapons proc, but I see you meant to say molten whip. My mistake.

Theignson · March 31

[/quote]

Like others have said, shattering deals it's damage when the stun ends naturally or when you break free of it. Take flight does indeed have a delay even if used point blank.

Theignson wrote: »

Even if they managed to time the shattering rocks to expire "exactly" when the other two skills hit, it shouldn't be possible for take flight and molten weapons to hit in the same gcd.

When you typed the bolded part above, I assumed you were confused about the igneous weapons proc, but I see you meant to say molten whip. My mistake.[/quote]

Oh sorry about that, my mistake. BTW thank you as always for your amazing youtube videos that show all your builds. I see you have posted the build video that explains all this, lol.
So in the example I posted, do you think it was just dumb luck that the shattering rocks procced right when molten whip hit ? Do you cast the shattering rock in the order you specified assuming they will break free immediately and thus it's damage syncs with the other ones? Or is it mostly just to lock them down?

Theignson · March 31

ruskiii wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Oh, this is the key. Shattering rocks if you just stand there only does damage after 5 seconds (1 second snare, 4 second stun, then damage). But since I break free right away, the damage hit me at that moment, right? So I myself played the key role in getting them all to hit at once!

I knew about all the old delayed combos, I use them all the time on my sorc, used to use the old shalks/dizzy/executioner, incap/bow; just didnt realize how you could do it with this new skill set. Thanks for the post!

It's not just the revamped skills tho, the examples you originally posted as bugs have been staple delayed burst combos for DK as long as I've been playing the game (5 years), and probably for much longer than that.

The skills were previously never strong enough to make a good combo though imo, now they are supercharged. Eacho component has been buffed tremendously. Almost enough to make me take my two DKs out of PvP retirement but not quite enough yet. I hate playing what everyone is playing, so I'm playing my sorc now, lol

React · March 31

Theignson wrote: »

Oh sorry about that, my mistake. BTW thank you as always for your amazing youtube videos that show all your builds. I see you have posted the build video that explains all this, lol.
So in the example I posted, do you think it was just dumb luck that the shattering rocks procced right when molten whip hit ? Do you cast the shattering rock in the order you specified assuming they will break free immediately and thus it's damage syncs with the other ones? Or is it mostly just to lock them down?

In that video I posted, I actually show some burst combos that sort of explain this.

Yes, with shattering rocks you're always casting it assuming they're going to break free ASAP or try to roll it. Their alternative is to not break free, and sit there not healing/blocking/dodging while you rip them in half - so you can assume they're always going to break free.

I don't think it was dumb luck, the person was probably just trying to stack them together.

The funny thing about shattering rocks is that previously the skill was instant. This means that someone would cast it on you and instantly stun you, which with decent ping and reaction time meant that you would ALWAYS be able to break free and roll/block before they could hit you with an ability in the next global cooldown. There was adequate counterplay, even if you couldn't block/roll it, because it was tied to the global cooldown. The counterplay was be fast enough.

This patch zenimax actually changed the ability to make it dodgeable, and they gave it a one second delay before stunning. They said that this was to "create more counterplay for the ability", but in practice this actually gives less counterplay.

The delay means that at the exact moment when this skill will stun you, your opponent can cast any other ability on you. This means they can guarantee a stun + huge combo on you if they were to cast something like leap which is undodgeable, because if you dodge the shattering rocks you'll get stunned by the leap, but if you don't dodge you'll get stunned by the shattering rocks and still eat the leap. Same goes for things like kjalnir, meteor, etc.

Tale as old as time - Zenimax attempting a PVP-focused balance change that ends up having the exact opposite effect it was intended to have.

Theignson · March 31

React wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Oh sorry about that, my mistake. BTW thank you as always for your amazing youtube videos that show all your builds. I see you have posted the build video that explains all this, lol.
So in the example I posted, do you think it was just dumb luck that the shattering rocks procced right when molten whip hit ? Do you cast the shattering rock in the order you specified assuming they will break free immediately and thus it's damage syncs with the other ones? Or is it mostly just to lock them down?

In that video I posted, I actually show some burst combos that sort of explain this.

Yes, with shattering rocks you're always casting it assuming they're going to break free ASAP or try to roll it. Their alternative is to not break free, and sit there not healing/blocking/dodging while you rip them in half - so you can assume they're always going to break free.

I don't think it was dumb luck, the person was probably just trying to stack them together.

The funny thing about shattering rocks is that previously the skill was instant. This means that someone would cast it on you and instantly stun you, which with decent ping and reaction time meant that you would ALWAYS be able to break free and roll/block before they could hit you with an ability in the next global cooldown. There was adequate counterplay, even if you couldn't block/roll it, because it was tied to the global cooldown. The counterplay was be fast enough.

This patch zenimax actually changed the ability to make it dodgeable, and they gave it a one second delay before stunning. They said that this was to "create more counterplay for the ability", but in practice this actually gives less counterplay.

The delay means that at the exact moment when this skill will stun you, your opponent can cast any other ability on you. This means they can guarantee a stun + huge combo on you if they were to cast something like leap which is undodgeable, because if you dodge the shattering rocks you'll get stunned by the leap, but if you don't dodge you'll get stunned by the shattering rocks and still eat the leap. Same goes for things like kjalnir, meteor, etc.

Tale as old as time - Zenimax attempting a PVP-focused balance change that ends up having the exact opposite effect it was intended to have.

!! As always your insight into the game is amazing. I would take down my post except it is worth leaving it up for all these good comments.

Turtle_Bot · March 31

Theignson wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

No exploit going on here, just simple delayed damage being stacked correctly to land a big burst of damage within 1 GCD.

From what I can tell, the internal GCD starts upon activating an ability, not when it lands, so:
- Shattering rocks procs it's damage when it ends (or you break free) but is actually cast 1.5-2s before the combo lands due to having the 1 second delay before it attempts to stun it's target, then the additional delay of breaking free/ending before it deals it's damage instance.
- Leap is cast next, assuming a 0.5-0.8s air-time for them to travel to you, even in melee range (shattering rocks is now ~0.8s away from landing it's delayed damage when leap is cast).
- Molten whip is cast last since it is instant and deals it's damage on cast, due to not being delayed nor having a travel time/projectile, thus it hits at the same time (or with milliseconds) of leap landing and shattering rocks proccing it's delayed damage.
.

Oh, this is the key. Shattering rocks if you just stand there only does damage after 5 seconds (1 second snare, 4 second stun, then damage). But since I break free right away, the damage hit me at that moment, right? So I myself played the key role in getting them all to hit at once!

I knew about all the old delayed combos, I use them all the time on my sorc, used to use the old shalks/dizzy/executioner, incap/bow; just didnt realize how you could do it with this new skill set. Thanks for the post!

Yes, this bolded part was the key here. Unlike Sorcs Rune Cage ability, shattering rocks deals it's damage even when it ends early (via break free), so you breaking free was definitely the key to proccing Shattering Rocks damage to line it up with the rest of the combo and this was the reason your opponents cast their abilities in that order, to guarantee a stun landing on you so their combo can't be countered via block or dodge roll since leap goes through roll and shattering rocks goes through block.

As React mentioned above, ZOS changed Fossilize (both morphs) to stun their target after a 1 second delay, with the theory that it allows extra counter play (which it technically does if we look at fossilize/shattering rocks in a vacuum with no other ability being accounted for). The issue is that having that 1 second delay reduces counter play in practice since, as React said, because the opponent can chain a stun that goes through dodge roll (Leap, Streak, Meteor, etc.) so that if you try to dodge roll to avoid fossilize/shattering rocks, the other CC will stun you instead, but if you block to counter those stuns, fossilize stuns you, forcing the other abilities to land anyway.

As for a way to counter this combo, there's no guaranteed counter, especially for those with high ping, but if you manage to see the snare on your debuffs before you get stunned, you can try to roll the fossilize/shattering rocks and attempt to block cancel the roll to also block the leap. It's insanely hard to pull this off though because the window to successfully do this is measured in milliseconds, so having high ping or any lag/delay will prevent this from being possible to perform.