Vaqual wrote: »

The issue that I see with this is that this would enable a level of cherry picking that would yet again invalidate the structure of the current reworks. I think providing access to other skill lines active abilities (even if slightly weakened) through some form scribing might be feasible, but attaching key passives would go significantly too far. Passives don't just work or compete by themselves, but rather as an ensemble. The strengths and weaknesses, synergies and gaps, are part of the balancing framework.
I know that I usually advocate against power creep, but this change would result in an massive power cut to average builds, while simultaneously enabling a meta that reaches even more extreme dps/mitigation/healing maxima.

How would it result in a massive power cut to average builds? And what even is an average build?

I just looked up a meta pve build on youtube. 183-187k dps using Assassination, Ardent Flame, Herald of the tome.

They have access to 12 class passives (4 in each line). In my idea they would have 10 class passives (they were running a total of 10 class skills + stampede and trap. So that same build would actually be weaker than they are currently. In fact most if not all builds will end up having less total passives than they do currently...

Sorry how is that different from what I said?
To be as direct as possible:
If I run 6 class abilities I lose half of my passives on my lame pseudo RP build while the next guy decides to activate every % damage done and crit damage done passive available on his bar for a proc gank oneshot? It just doesn't sound like an appealing idea.

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Just get rid of subclassing.

I would love to get rid of classes altogether lol

Meridiano wrote: »

With the current system we already have 1330 combinations, obviously impossible to balance, and I believe ZoS are not able to handle this balancing. It's like the wheat and chessboard problem in a miniature. What you propose is to make it even worse. Please don't! Dude, it's already bad.

What I propose would make balancing better imo and open up literal endless build/character customization

albertberku wrote: »

Hell no for PvP. I can see the exact one build that everyone is going to play: Subt. Assault + Curse + Bound Armaments + Contingency (with Warden Charm) + Crystal Weapon + Grim Focus + Blastbones + Streak + Burst Heal (Scribing Soul) + Shade + Overload + Vamp Ult + Rush of Agony/Relequen/Rallying + Null Arca + Kjalnar/Roksa + Monomyth + Orzoga + All Health Attributes + All Swift traits + Tristat Pots. Thanks but no thanks!

So in your scenario that player would have 9 total class passives:

Storm Calling 2
Deadric Summoning 2
Assasination 1
Grave Lord 1
Animal Companions 1
Shadow 1
Dark Magic 1

Do you actually think that is better than what people are already doing stacking ALL assassination passives, animal companions, storm calling/aedric spear/ardent flame/grave lord etc for a total of 12?

I don't think so personally. I'm a PvP main btw and don't think it would be any worse than what we currently have

albertberku wrote: »

In ESO PvP the sheer amount of different damage sources always wins (by margin) against stat increase when it comes to burst damage.

I agree. And my point is that players right now already have more damage multipliers than they would in my suggestion.

albertberku wrote: »

That is also why proc sets are used instead of stat sets. I think they would need to buff passives and stat increase around maybe 60 - 70 % more to make them on par. We are talking about that much of a difference here. And since that would make proc sets (that we (coincidentally) get a more powerful version every patch) obsolete, that is not going to happen.

No idea what you're talking about here. What do you mean buff passives? To make what on par?

I just used your PvP example above and chose what I would pick for an all damage setup. The options aren't as good as you think.

Your example:

Amplitude: Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current Health they have.
Energized : Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
Deadric Protection: Reduce your damage taken by 5% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability active.
Expert Summoner: Increases your Magicka and Stamina by 5%.
Exploitation: When you cast a Dark Magic ability you grant Minor Prophecy to you and your group, increasing your Spell Hemorrhage: Critical rating by 1314 for 20 seconds. Increases your Critical Damage by 10%. Dealing Critical Damage grants you and your group Minor Savagery, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 1314 for 20 seconds.
Shadow Barrier: Casting a Shadow ability grants you Major Resolve for 12 seconds, increasing your Physical and Spell Resistance by 5948. This duration is increased by 2 seconds for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Current duration: 12 seconds
Death Knell: Increases your Critical Strike Chance against enemies under 33% Health by 20%.
Advanced Species: Increases your Critical Damage by 5% for each Animal Companion ability slotted.

vs what players currently run:

Amplitude: Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current Health they have.
Energized: Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
Capacitor: Increases your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 141.
Expert Mage: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 108 for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
Hemorrhage: Increases your Critical Damage by 10%. Dealing Critical Damage grants you and your group Minor Savagery, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 1314 for 20 seconds.
Pressure Points: Increases your Critical Chance rating by 548 for each Assassination ability slotted, increasing your chance to critically strike by 2.5% per ability.
Master Assassin: Increases your Critical Chance rating against enemies you are flanking by 1448, increasing your chance to critically strike by |6.6%.
Executioner: When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damaged by you, you restore 1000 Magicka and Stamina.
Advanced Species: Increases your Critical Damage by 5% for each Animal Companion ability slotted.
Bond with Nature: Anytime one of your Animal Companion skills end, you are healed for 1530 Health.
Flourish: Increases your Magicka and Stamina recovery by 20%.
Savage Beast: Casting an Animal Companions ability while are in combat generates 4 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

Be honest with yourself for a second, is the first build actually better? I definitely don't think so, and I don't think it's particularly close.

Well, first of all it doesnt really matter what kind of sustain or defensive passives you have. They are in clear disadvantage when compared to damage passives and you dont need them. It all comes to high hp and one good burst heal in block. Sustain is plenty even in all damage builds. We know this because builds with 3 or 2 Damage lines are the 90 - 95% of subclass builds in PvP. And it is 2 sometimes and not 3 only because that skill line has a really good burst option like Subt. Assault or Curse/Armamanets. Otherwise it would be surely 3 all builds.

Lets say you have Amplitude, Energized and Expert Mage from Sorcerer. I am going to give 5% for Amplitude since it is 10% at full hp. Another 5% for Energized. Lets say you slot 5 skills, +500 dmg from Expert Mage, that would be maybe 10% increase together with buffs if i am being very generous. In total lets say 20% increase, and i am being extremely generous here. Lets do the math: Your Overload hits 6k. +20%, will hit around 7k best case scenario. Now lets assume i dont have any of these passives. And any other skill like Curse should hit 6k as well, because Overload has basically a similar tooltip to a burst skill or a spammable. In total if you combine that two you would get 12k base. That is a (12k - 7k) = 5k burst difference. And that would translate to 80% more burst maybe even more as oppose to maximum of 20% that you would get by stacking passives. That is 60% more, at least.

As i said the burst you will get from different sources will beat (by a clear margin) burst you will get from a single source with higher stats or passives. And that is what all matters in ESO PvP because sustain or defence stats/passives are not very important when compared to how high your burst is. That is the simple math behind it.

Also want to say, I am in favor of any way we can make ESO more Elder Scrolls, and the idea of restrictive classes, is akin to mixing oil with water.

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

The best thing I can say about this idea is that it is literally an idea. Hopefully, it never becomes a reality. The can of worms this would open up would make the introduction of subclassing without proper balancing look tame in comparison. Allowing people to cherry pick abilities and passives would add to the power creep, not somehow rein it in like you are trying to convince everyone it would. Luckily, it looks like ZOS is walking back the free-for-all with their class makeovers. Hopefully, the future is closer to standard, existing classes than this Frankenstein's monster you are proposing.

You could convince me if you could come up with gamebreaking or even just a better build in the system i proposed than what people are currently running now. Look at the example of the "problematic" build albert mentioned above. The passives aren't as good compared to subclassed builds now. They are objectively worse in my eyes, so I don't see how that adds to the power creep. But again, I'm open to being wrong if someone can lay out a build that would break the game

Radiate77 wrote: »

I would be in favor of this, if it accompanied a labeling of each skill type and an either/or choice.

If you could have 5 delayed burst skills that hit harder because of their delayed payout, you could just cycle them all and bypass their delay.

That is not a bad idea. Could also just make those types of skills more expensive to cast. But my personal opinion is if someone wants to use 5 delayed burst skills then let them. They won't hit that hard when they don't get 4 meta assassination dmg passives for slotting one skill.

QB1 wrote: »

Do you realize that all of that is literally already is possible?

Yes, i just say it shouldn't be possible.

QB1 wrote: »

I know subclassing has been a love it or hate it feature since it's been added but I for one love it. Subclassing + all of the new skill styles have been a fantastic step forward to more creative build expression for me but I still run into the same problem, i'd love to have just one or two skills from a different line for thematic purposes that I don't have access to.

My idea is to let players slot individual skills from any skill line. Access to passive abilities is based on how invested a player is in that skill line:

1 active skill from a line unlocks 1 choosable passive from it
2 active skills unlocks 2 choosable passives
3 active skills unlocks 3 choosable passives
4+ active skills unlocks all passives

This would be another great step forward to complete character and build customization. I know for me and a large number of other players, this is what keeps us playing ESO and what has drawn us to Elder Scrolls games for the last 20-30 years. Let us use any skill from any skill line and let us pick our own passives based on how invested we are in each skill line!

I would be down for this, except for one thing:

We should NEVER have been able to use/abuse passives from other classes. You should get your baseline passives from the class you chose from the start, and THEN you should be able to pick skills from the other classes. Then the passives can be reworked to fit a central theme so that there are unique reasons for being, say a DK, rather than an arcanist. This would also help reign in the power of subclassing IMO because then you can't stack various favorable passives, and the devs can better balance the game between subclassed and pureclassed characters.

If this suggested change happens, I am disbanding all of our guilds and going to another game. There is already too much cherry picking. Subclassing is a disaster. It needs to be removed.

QB1 wrote: »

Do you actually think that is better than what people are already doing stacking ALL assassination passives, animal companions, storm calling/aedric spear/ardent flame/grave lord etc for a total of 12?

Your premise is flawed. If we are talking about a DD build with (using your earlier example) Assassination, Ardent Flame, Herald of the tome:

Asassination:
Executioner - Rarely procs on boss fights. Trash fights don't last long enough for it to matter.

Ardent Flame:
A Soul Ablaze - 8% extra healing on a DD is nothing when you consider healer overheal for 80%+

Herald of the Tome:
Splintered Secrets - Extra penetration is simply not needed in group content with a competent tank.

There are 3/4 more passives in those 3 lines that aren't essential, or are situational at best. In short: It's not 12 passives.

This would be the death of the game, I am very much against this idea. It would pretty much exacerbate the issues with subclassing we're already having.