Why the one bar build hate? It needs to stop - some players do not like weapon swapping.

moo_2021 · April 2025

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Personally, I would never have designed the game to make the back bar a buff bar. I think new worlds two bar system makes a ton more sense. Where changing to a different weapon changes the playstyle/scenario use and are not really about buffing (although some combos exist due to stunning with one weapon and executing with another).

How do buffs work in new world and other mmo?

The idea of having to dedicate half the time and attention to buff timers just doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it be much better if major buff abilities work like slotted CPs?

Icy_Waffles · April 2025

coop500 wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

One bar builds should always be weaker than a two bar build. There should be a dps and survivability loss for not having to bar swap.

And Arcanist should be nerfed by 50%, right? Because with just Banner + one skill + Beam, they can hit 500K—almost the same as the best DK pro players. We can't have everything we want, right?

[snip]

coop500 wrote: »

I feel like half this thread doesn't realize tons of Oakensoul builds exist and not all of them are even HA related.

I run all my DPS characters with Oakensoul, and they vary in their play styles. I tried HA once and it felt boring and clunky as hell, so they're all light-attack weaving types. Some melee, some ranged, in all different classes, and yes they do have self heal, a shield, and most provide this to others if standing close (scribing soul burst skill or the mage's guild one depending on the character, as well as other buffs.)

Sure. I use oaken on my werewolf stam sorc. It doesn’t mean it’s good enough for vet trials. Just solo fun, random normals, and vet dungeons.

There is tons and tons of content in this game outside of vet trials, you know.

That's what drives me nuts about people sometimes. Just cause it's not ideal for vet trials, it's trash and nobody should run it!
Guess what? Most people can't do vet trials even with the meta builds, due to needing user skills that not everyone possesses.

I didn’t say that. As I clearly stated I use this build for plenty of things. But I know it’s not meant for end game content-

Stop baiting and just complaining that many end game groups won’t take your one bar build-

[edited to remove quote]

coop500 · April 2025

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

One bar builds should always be weaker than a two bar build. There should be a dps and survivability loss for not having to bar swap.

And Arcanist should be nerfed by 50%, right? Because with just Banner + one skill + Beam, they can hit 500K—almost the same as the best DK pro players. We can't have everything we want, right?

[snip]

coop500 wrote: »

I feel like half this thread doesn't realize tons of Oakensoul builds exist and not all of them are even HA related.

I run all my DPS characters with Oakensoul, and they vary in their play styles. I tried HA once and it felt boring and clunky as hell, so they're all light-attack weaving types. Some melee, some ranged, in all different classes, and yes they do have self heal, a shield, and most provide this to others if standing close (scribing soul burst skill or the mage's guild one depending on the character, as well as other buffs.)

Sure. I use oaken on my werewolf stam sorc. It doesn’t mean it’s good enough for vet trials. Just solo fun, random normals, and vet dungeons.

There is tons and tons of content in this game outside of vet trials, you know.

That's what drives me nuts about people sometimes. Just cause it's not ideal for vet trials, it's trash and nobody should run it!
Guess what? Most people can't do vet trials even with the meta builds, due to needing user skills that not everyone possesses.

I didn’t say that. As I clearly stated I use this build for plenty of things. But I know it’s not meant for end game content-

Stop baiting and just complaining that many end game groups won’t take your one bar build-

You're the one baiting, honestly.
I have no problems in vet trials if I want to, and have never been rejected from any group due to my build. I am just making a statement because most people won't ever touch vet trials, so it's weird to tell everyone not to use oakensoul for that reason.
Not saying YOU are, but people in those reddit threads were.

[edited to remove quote]

DigiAngel · April 2025

FWIW I've had no complains on my accidental one bar magblade build (originally meant for IA). I only do the daily random normal dungeons with that build...I have elemental explosion slotted with shock damage and off balance so I feel that helps out the whole team. That said, I'd never do vet dungeons or trials with it...not enough raw damage output.

Pops_ND_Irish · March 23

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

I mean, I don't think anyone is going to stop people on reddit from having opinions. I use oakensoul builds all the time and no one ever bothers me about it, particularly once they see that I actually perform. I did a couple trials in my social guild and now they request me every week. Of course it's group content, not solo, so I also don't get angry and demand to use an oakensoul build if we're doing a run where something else is needed. They let me play how I want but I also adapt to what's needed, that's how groups work. But I play with friends and guildies mostly, not random people from reddit, so I suppose results may vary. Thing is, we can all play how we want, but other players also aren't required to like how we play and aren't required to play with us. It's best to meet some like minded people.

Very good, someone who actually plays the game like they want and pays no attention to some that think they are the best.
Seen the so called best on their backs a lot.

aspergalas4 · March 23

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/689452/future-qol-suggestions-proposal-cross-bar-weapon-skill-accessibility-for-improved-combat-fluidity#latest

CatalinaWineMixer2 · March 24

I can see where some of the trial leaders might not want a 1 bar, like portals in a trial or something where it could cause a group wipe. Or a 2 bar is simply going to solo it alone. We did a 6 week Prog doing only 1 bars for everyone just for FUN. It can be done. Too many people just want to gatekeep and are afraid of mechs. I am personally not against 1 bar builds and allow them into our content. Im also not someone who tells people what to run or how to play and we clear EVERYTHING. My purpose as a GM is to make my people better at the game. If they dont see it all or experience it all, they're not going to get better. Most people do run 2 bars. Id say you're just running with the wrong people as others have previously mentioned. Stand up to them, and don't let them ruin your Eso experience. There are probably fewer of us than them, but we dont want or need your parses, clears or povs. We want you in our guild, to stay in our guild and to play the game , to learn to play it well, with us, as a team. That is all you need, the clears come very easily after that😎

SaffronCitrusflower · March 24

No hate for one bar builds here. But one bar builds should NEVER outperform two bar builds. Simple is great, it just shouldn't outperform a complicated rotation.

twisttop138 · March 24

I think, unfortunately some bad apples have given 1 bar players a bad reputation as toxic casuals. Many raid leaders just don't wanna deal with it. This is why it's important to find your people instead of calling elitist this and gatekeeping that. My actual raiding guild never excludes and fosters a real sense of team, where you want to perform your best. My social guild doesn't care either, and though the weekly trials there are listed as learning and no guarantee of clearing, we do every week almost. I've seen 1 bar players in the last couple patches do awesome dps, but there was never an attitude of you need to accept my build on your team or youre an elitist gatekeeper. Sadly this is prevalent. If you wanna play a 1 bar build, go for it. But find like minded players instead of saying everyone must cater to you.

Orbital78 · March 24

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

No hate for one bar builds here. But one bar builds should NEVER outperform two bar builds. Simple is great, it just shouldn't outperform a complicated rotation.

Complicated rotation. Uh huh. But one bars have had the ceiling lowered over and over via weapon passives and class nerfs. Each dlc seems to have higher and higher requirements.

robwolf666 · March 24

I only play one bar builds, and don't give a monkeys if it offends other players - You do you, and leave alone me to do me, thank you very much.

Play how you want, after all.

Markytous · March 24

I am here yet again to say that Oaken HA builds' only problem is that Lightning Staff Tri-Focus bypasses Battlespirit in PvPvE areas (Sometimes Cyro with guards, often in Imperial City with mobs) when the HA splashes from a mob to a player. Empower and Slayer buffs will add onto the damage to end up 1shotting an enemy player nearby the HA target. This exploit needs to be fixed, as I have experienced countless players in IC attempt to use this bug to kill me (hasn't worked in couple years luckily). Players are now well aware if this but it has gone another year not fixed. I guess the modern ZOS transparency is still not ready to talk specifics on the issues of its PvPvE sector. I will continue to be patient.

Athory · March 24

Every word I’m gonna say is directed to OP only.

I will not reply to any comment, even if anyone tags me and the reason is simple: I can’t post full screenshots or logs to prove everything I’m saying because of the Naming-and-Shaming CoC.
But if anyone want to prove me wrong, do it in-game, I’ll be there waiting for any of you.

So, here it goes.

@WhiteScythe you can’t win this battle.
There’s no point in coming to the forum and saying whatever you want about onebar builds. You’re not alone, but there’s absolutely nothing you can do to change this mentality here in the forums. Yes, I said here in the forums.

All these comments and excuses you see here, like this one from;
@HatchetHaro: “Look, when you join a group, you are expected to carry your own weight...”

are, just a placebo effect. Empty words. They sound good, but in reality, they don’t mean nothing.

But you can do something. Oh yes, you can. Simple as this:
If you want to prove your point, do it in-game.

Join any content. Use your onebar build. After the first boss, if you’re clearly carrying your own weight, and parsing more then 2bar players, just say it:

Why am I carrying 2-bar players?
2-bar players parsing less than Oakensoul?

And if you join in a group with players who openly hate HA builds, just be direct:
“I’m using 1bar, and I’m here to outparse @PlayerX on two bars.”

Then prove it, in front of everyone in group.

But... and read this carefully;
Even if you’re the strongest onebar player in the game, you will never be stronger than top 2bar players with proper weaving. You won’t beat those guys and you shouldn’t.

The difference is: those players don’t care what you use. They don’t need to prove anything.
They may join your group, but you’ll never join their group. Do you understand this point?

This doesn’t mean they don’t like HA builds. It just means they want a clean run, a fast run, maybe even HM without skipping anything. Sometimes they might even go for a trifecta if the mood is right.
That’s why they avoid HA players. Because at any moment, they might decide to push for a trifecta without any previous agreement, just… why not?
Those top players deserve our full respect, because they can teach us so much. I have so much respect for them that I can’t even put it into words.

But all the others? Zero respect. They deserve nothing more than being exposed in front of everyone.

And you don’t need to be better than them. You only need to be better than the many players who struggle with weaving and that’s where the real issue is. A lot of people don’t reject onebar because it’s bad, but because they can’t outperform it themselves.

That’s the reality.

onebar is not bad at all. In fact, today, onebar is more than enough to complete any trial or dungeon, on hard mode.

My dear OP, you have no idea how much I want to post screenshots and logs here so you could actually see it. A lot of players who talk BS about onebar builds don’t have any DPS at all. They parse less than my HA build, they die more than my HA buildthey are dead weight, by far.

But it’s also true: if we’re in a good group, those same players can sometimes parse 20k more than my HA. Lol.
Now, good players with proper weaving? They can parse 100k more than my HA. Do you understand the difference in what I’m saying?

So many players replying here use two bars, but yes, they are the dead weight when I’m on my HA character.

@Zaan’s, PC-EU!

twisttop138 · March 24

Athory wrote: »

Every word I’m gonna say is directed to OP only.

I will not reply to any comment, even if anyone tags me and the reason is simple: I can’t post full screenshots or logs to prove everything I’m saying because of the Naming-and-Shaming CoC.
But if anyone want to prove me wrong, do it in-game, I’ll be there waiting for any of you.

So, here it goes.
@WhiteScythe you can’t win this battle.

There’s no point in coming to the forum and saying whatever you want about onebar builds. You’re not alone, but there’s absolutely nothing you can do to change this mentality here in the forums. Yes, I said here in the forums.

All these comments and excuses you see here, like this one from;
@HatchetHaro: “Look, when you join a group, you are expected to carry your own weight...”

are, just a placebo effect. Empty words. They sound good, but in reality, they don’t mean nothing.

But you can do something. Oh yes, you can. Simple as this:
If you want to prove your point, do it in-game.

Join any content. Use your onebar build. After the first boss, if you’re clearly carrying your own weight, and parsing more then 2bar players, just say it:
Why am I carrying 2-bar players?

2-bar players parsing less than Oakensoul?

And if you join in a group with players who openly hate HA builds, just be direct:
“I’m using 1bar, and I’m here to outparse @PlayerX on two bars.”

Then prove it, in front of everyone in group.

But... and read this carefully;
Even if you’re the strongest onebar player in the game, you will never be stronger than top 2bar players with proper weaving. You won’t beat those guys and you shouldn’t.

The difference is: those players don’t care what you use. They don’t need to prove anything.
They may join your group, but you’ll never join their group. Do you understand this point?
This doesn’t mean they don’t like HA builds. It just means they want a clean run, a fast run, maybe even HM without skipping anything. Sometimes they might even go for a trifecta if the mood is right.
That’s why they avoid HA players. Because at any moment, they might decide to push for a trifecta without any previous agreement, just… why not?
Those top players deserve our full respect, because they can teach us so much. I have so much respect for them that I can’t even put it into words.

But all the others? Zero respect. They deserve nothing more than being exposed in front of everyone.

And you don’t need to be better than them. You only need to be better than the many players who struggle with weaving and that’s where the real issue is. A lot of people don’t reject onebar because it’s bad, but because they can’t outperform it themselves.

That’s the reality.

onebar is not bad at all. In fact, today, onebar is more than enough to complete any trial or dungeon, on hard mode.

My dear OP, you have no idea how much I want to post screenshots and logs here so you could actually see it. A lot of players who talk BS about onebar builds don’t have any DPS at all. They parse less than my HA build, they die more than my HA buildthey are dead weight, by far.

But it’s also true: if we’re in a good group, those same players can sometimes parse 20k more than my HA. Lol.
Now, good players with proper weaving? They can parse 100k more than my HA. Do you understand the difference in what I’m saying?

So many players replying here use two bars, but yes, they are the dead weight when I’m on my HA character.

@Zaan’s, PC-EU!

Or maybe, and hear me out Op of a necro'd thread, go into a group with a positive attitude. Don't walk in and say Yo I'm better than player X. That's the kind of toxic attitude I talked about in my post that makes it hard for 1 bar build players.

I raid with people who use 1 bar set ups. Not oakensoul because better options exist for trials, but 1 bar builds. No one has ever said a word to them. Not in vet, not in hard mode and not in our dawnbringer. Having a chip on your shoulder and not being open to learning or advice turns people off. If you're getting someone telling you you're not pulling your weight, take a look at it. If he's wrong, they're probably not your type of group. The type of group doing hard content that accepts different types of players is out there. But we don't want snobs. We want team Players.

Edit. Added last sentence.

HatchetHaro · March 30

Athory wrote: »

@HatchetHaro: “Look, when you join a group, you are expected to carry your own weight...”

are, just a placebo effect. Empty words. They sound good, but in reality, they don’t mean nothing.

I love how you insinuate that my words are meaningless, and then the rest of your post is "you just need to carry your own weight", which is literally my quote.

heavenelva · March 30

The reality is that many one-bar players can't even be bothered to learn a basic rotation, let alone understand actual fight mechanics. They tend to outrange the healer, missing out on crucial heals and buffs. What’s even more frustrating is the 'fake healers'—one-bar players who queue as healers but contribute absolutely zero utility to the group beyond spamming a single heal.

playsforfun · March 30

This all comes down to powercreep, the faster the better as more chance of survival & finishing.

Looking back at the time when 30k DPS was good DPS to do the craglorn trials it was slow & hard back then which I miss when you actually had to be good & do mechs but due to powercreep all trials in game are rushed & easily crushed even by pug groups, I think this was to allow more access of the player base which isn't a bad thing but it leaves those who are top players having resentment towards those that they believe shouldn't be there & this is the same premises as old builds like oakensoul that are more than capable of completing all hard mode trials just it's not at the pace other players would like so it comes down a community created issue mixed in with a road zos wanted to take the games direction in.

Personally I like to see more people doing trials & also the same goes for PvP, these people complain about how end-game trials or PvP are dying but it's a situation they create themselves mainly by gatekeeping or constantly asking for nerfs because they don't like that play style themselves.

Athory · March 30

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Of course people can play how they want to play. It's just that if they join a group and they underperform in their precious one-bar builds, we get to kick them because we play how we want to play: not carrying some buffoon!

Look, when you join a group, you are expected to carry your own weight. Any amount of damage you aren't able to do, the rest of the group has to deal with in the form of longer fight times, more mechanics, more chances of death, and more chances at wiping. So if you bring your Oakensoul build into a trial and you deal at least around average dps in the group, you're golden. But if you start to fall behind, people will start questioning your build.

What am I missing?

Of course there are amazing 1bar players, and there are amazing 2bar players. But based on my experience, especially playing mostly in PUGs (GroupFinder), I consistently find all types of players: 1bar, 2bar, casuals, complete beginners, and top-tier players.

From what I’ve observed, the key difference comes down to execution:

A beginner 1bar player will almost always perform better than a beginners 2bar player.
The same applies to casual players. 1bar casual player tend to be more effective than a casual 2bar player.
A solid two-bar player (around 120k parse) may or may not outperform a solid 1bar player.
Only 2bar players with strong weaving and proper rotations (150k+ DPS) can reliably outperform 1bar players.
But how many players with a real 150k parse do you actually find in Group Finder or PUGs? Sure, you’ll find a few, that’s normal. But will the entire group consistently hit 150k? No. Never.
So in real scenarios, 1bar builds perform just fine in almost any situation.

So realistically, one-bar builds are not “useless”, they’re actually stronger for the majority of players. The only scenario where they truly fall behind is at the highest level of play, where optimized two-bar rotations and perfect weaving make the difference. At this point, 2bar players will easily dominate 1bar players.

But, if we’re talking about high-end Discord groups going for trifectas...

that’s a completely different story. 1bar players don’t have a place there, but honestly, neither do a large portion of 2bar players, the same who gatekeep others.

Like I said, there are good one-bar players and good two-bar players.
But what do we actually find in PUGs and Group Finder? A huge mix of players, and I’m 100% 1bar builds are not the problem.

The real issue is players running 2bars and still doing no DPS at all. Even worse are the ones who hit around 110k on a parse and suddenly think they’re elite, acting like world-record players, gatekeeping others just because they can… only to wipe and disband on something like vDSR Twins (Oh boy...)

One-bar players aren’t worse than two-bar players.
Bad players are bad, regardless of the setup. Simple as that.
Because at the end of the day, both sides can be just as bad. With 1bar or 2bars!

So @HatchetHaro , whatever your intention was with that comment… I completely disagree.

I refuse to accept the idea that 2bar players "carry" 1bar players. That’s false, it’s misleading, and honestly, it’s just empty talk. This whole "carry weight needs to go both ways".
I’ve played with plenty of 2bar players who carried me so easily in some trials (Vet/HM) — that’s true. But at the same time, I’ve carried even more 2bar players over the years with my HA build. In fact, in some cases, if those players left, no one would even notice.
Like you said; "But if you start to fall behind, people will start questioning your build." So what about all those players who perform worse than 1bar builds?

If you’re using a 2bar build and parsing around 130k, please stop talking nonsense about 1bar players. You’re not a world-record player, so you’re not better than everyone else. Unless… you actually are.

ADarklore · March 30

Granted, I don't run group content. However, Oakensoul was a game changer for me. Either between the lag of bar swapping (where you THINK you swapped bars but it never actually did) or just trying to manage the cooldowns between the two, I found myself extremely frustrated for years- so I tended to put my most used skills on the front bar anyway and rarely swapped. So Oakensoul came out and I found that I was enjoying the game so much more, because now I didn't need to slot a Major Sorcery skill, a major Prophecy skill, a Major Resolve skill, etc, etc. It just all-around made the game so much better for me.

Recently, with Dragonknight rework, I tried to go back to a 2-bar build... and that lasted about an hour. The thing that sucks is, and ZOS needs to look at this for Oakensoul users, is that we lose out on the benefits of 'gain xxx depending on the number of class skills slotted'. Since we can only slot five skills total, versus ten, it does bring down the benefit of Oakensoul a bit- and if they intend to continue this through the other classes- they should adjust Oakensoul back to the ORIGINAL version which gave us all the MAJOR buffs. This would help offset the losses from not being able to slot more class skills to increase the associated passive buffs. Just a thought.

Athory · March 30

ADarklore wrote: »

Granted, I don't run group content. However, Oakensoul was a game changer for me. Either between the lag of bar swapping (where you THINK you swapped bars but it never actually did) or just trying to manage the cooldowns between the two, I found myself extremely frustrated for years- so I tended to put my most used skills on the front bar anyway and rarely swapped. So Oakensoul came out and I found that I was enjoying the game so much more, because now I didn't need to slot a Major Sorcery skill, a major Prophecy skill, a Major Resolve skill, etc, etc. It just all-around made the game so much better for me.

Recently, with Dragonknight rework, I tried to go back to a 2-bar build... and that lasted about an hour. The thing that sucks is, and ZOS needs to look at this for Oakensoul users, is that we lose out on the benefits of 'gain xxx depending on the number of class skills slotted'. Since we can only slot five skills total, versus ten, it does bring down the benefit of Oakensoul a bit- and if they intend to continue this through the other classes- they should adjust Oakensoul back to the ORIGINAL version which gave us all the MAJOR buffs. This would help offset the losses from not being able to slot more class skills to increase the associated passive buffs. Just a thought.

I truly understand you. I also always struggled in 2bar setups. Oh boy, I was really bad back then. When Oakensoul was released, it was a blessing for many players like you and me. For many reasons, Oakensoul (1bar) helped me so much in understanding the mechanics of the game. It gave me the opportunity to focus on the game itself, instead of worrying about rotations and all the stress they bring!

With Arcanist and his beam HA V2.0, I was able to return to 2bar setups. Simple, because my body craved something more than just one bar; I felt the need for more complexity. And Arcanist filled that void! I could fully enter the 2bar world. I was already capable of handling mechanics, so all I needed was to focus on parsing and Arcanist helped me with that!

Today, my main character is onebar. But my best parse is with 2bar Arcanist! And the same thing happened again with the beam, let’s call it HA V2.0. My body wanted more. Waiting for the beam to end wasn’t satisfying anymore; I wanted to do more. So I went Warden and hit 130k. Not my best parse yet, because I still miss a lot of LA in weaving, but I’ll get there!
Pure 2bars build!!

What I want to say is: Oakensoul has never been bad for the game. It makes the game better for everyone. If an item helps anyone, of course anyone’ll perform better for the group, and over time.

I truly love my HA Sorcerer. No one has any idea how much I love that character and that gameplay. But now, I don’t need him anymore. And I wasn’t the only one who benefited from this. I truly believe the game is better for it, because today, I can be carried in either 1bar or 2bar setups or I can carry others and I do carry a lot of players in both 1bar and 2bar setups.

Sadly, ESO has stopped being about fun, roleplay, or whatever you want to call the essence of an Elder Scrolls game. ESO has become nothing more than hatred, toxicity, and number-chasing. So, unfortunately, I don’t think Oakensoul will ever get buffed. For others, fun, teamwork, and meaningful gameplay only happen if players have 2bars, even if they’re only parsing 50k.

And yes… it’s really sad.

DreadKnight · March 30

Buff Oakensoul.

Oakensoul lives matter!

HatchetHaro · March 30

Athory wrote: »

I refuse to accept the idea that 2bar players "carry" 1bar players. That’s false, it’s misleading, and honestly, it’s just empty talk. This whole "carry weight needs to go both ways".
I’ve played with plenty of 2bar players who carried me so easily in some trials (Vet/HM) — that’s true. But at the same time, I’ve carried even more 2bar players over the years with my HA build. In fact, in some cases, if those players left, no one would even notice.
Like you said; "But if you start to fall behind, people will start questioning your build." So what about all those players who perform worse than 1bar builds?

Okay so, there is no part in my comment that says "2-bar players are carrying 1-bar players". If anything, the entire point of the post is about having to perform well, no matter what you do. Since the OP of the thread was complaining about the hate against 1-bar, I then addressed what 1-bar players are expected to do: perform on-par with the rest of the group for the content they are trying to do.

If this was a thread complaining about a different off-meta setup instead of 1-bar HA builds, my point would be the same: players running that off-meta setup need to perform well and carry their weight in the content they do, because ultimately, people want to clear the content without being held back by someone who could do so much better with a modest change in setup.

There is also one clear weakness with 1-bar HA setups: its low damage-ceiling ultimately locks the player into a playstyle that they cannot improve from. Once they reach that ceiling, that's it; if they want to go higher, they must unlearn what they know of 1-bar HA rotations and start learning how to light-attack weave and barswap properly from scratch.

That is what you were missing.

I'd also like to offer my own context: I'm part of those "high-end Discord groups going for trifectas". In fact, I have all the dungeon and trial trifectas, many of which I have personally led, so I consider myself very much at the very top-end of endgame, with the only ones above me being scorepushers. I have personally seen many people bringing Oakensoul HA builds into some runs for certain trial hardmodes, and almost all of the time they have been at the bottom of the dps rankings.

Now, I'm fine with that as long as the rest of the group is on board, but most of the time, people are generally frustrated about having to carry someone who 1. deals low damage and 2. offers no supportive utility (Z'en's, Alkosh, etc.), especially when that damage is the difference between finally clearing a boss and wiping repeatedly because the group can't make a dps check.

This isn't just a trial hardmode thing; I've seen many people running 1-bar HA builds in pug dungeon runs, and the vast majority of them massively underperform to the point where I feel like I can solo the dungeon in a third of the time compared to a full group with two of those players. Not a real problem as long as they can clear, but it still validates many peoples' aversion to those setups.

Look, your arguments are sound, and we're both demanding the same thing: for people to perform well in the content they're trying to do, regardless of their builds. But if you are able to perform well in one of those HA builds, well, that just makes you an exception. Exceptional, yes, but not the rule.

Rishikesa108 · March 30

I'd like to bring up the history of Oakensoul. Initially, it was incredibly powerful, so much so that weaving-build advocates were extremely outraged. I know people who quit ESO for this reason; they couldn't stand the fact that a player with an Oakensoul build was doing the same damage as a player with a weaving build.
The crazy thing is that, unfortunately, ZOS accommodated these players, listening to their complaints and then nerfing Oakensoul builds repeatedly.
I've seen players return to ESO saying, "Justice has been done."
Since then, players who wanted to keep an Oakensoul build have been ghettoized, treated like buffoons (see some posts here where someone has gone as far as calling one-bar users buffoons).
I don't expect some people to understand the many reasons that can drive someone to choose an Oakensoul build, but I expect ZOS to understand.
Using a weaving build is very stressful for the hands, muscles, and nerves in the wrist and fingers. Those who are no longer in their twenties or thirties, or who suffer from hand pain or carpal tunnel syndrome, can't use such a build for long. Maybe for a few months, but then they'll feel fatigue or pain. An Oakensoul build helps these people who aren't disabled at all, but whose limbs are less capable than others. I don't see why these people should be ghettoized, ridiculed, or insulted for this.
ZOS should allow Oakensoul builds to once again match weaving builds. Let's not allow the envy of weaving supporters to be satisfied with nerfs that penalize those who aren't harming anyone, but simply want to play as best they can.
These are my thoughts, thanks to those who read me to the end.

Athory · March 30

@HatchetHaro I get what you're saying, and I don’t disagree with the core idea, performance matters more than the setup. That’s exactly my point too.

Where I think we differ is in how often 1bar HA builds are dismissed before performance is even considered. A lot of people don’t wait to see if someone can pull their weight, they assume they can’t just because of the build, and that’s what I’m pushing back against.

You’re right that 1bar has a lower ceiling, and I’m not arguing it competes with optimized 2bar setups at the very top end. But most content, even any vet content, doesn’t actually require hitting that ceiling. It requires consistency, survivability, and enough damage to meet checks, which HA players can absolutely provide.

Also, I think there’s a bit of bias from high-end groups (which you’re part of, fair enough). At that level, yeah, every bit of DPS and utility matters, and off-meta builds get exposed more easily. But that environment isn’t the majority of the playerbase. In more typical runs, I’ve seen plenty of 2bar players underperform just as hard as the examples you gave, they don’t get blamed on their build as quickly.

So I’m not saying HA builds are optimal or should replace meta setups. I’m saying they shouldn’t automatically be treated as dead weight. Judge the player, not the bar setup.
And if someone performs well on it, that shouldn’t be seen as "the rare exception", it should be proof that the build itself isn’t the real issue.

DoofusMax · March 30

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Of course people can play how they want to play. It's just that if they join a group and they underperform in their precious one-bar builds, we get to kick them because we play how we want to play: not carrying some buffoon!

I'm going to have to disagree here. If you're manually forming a group, then sure. You get to be picky about who you let in because you're doing the forming. If you asked for random, you take random, warts and all. Don't like what random dishes up? Then don't ask for random.

olda90 · March 30

playsforfun wrote: »

This all comes down to powercreep, the faster the better as more chance of survival & finishing.

Looking back at the time when 30k DPS was good DPS to do the craglorn trials it was slow & hard back then which I miss when you actually had to be good & do mechs but due to powercreep all trials in game are rushed & easily crushed even by pug groups, I think this was to allow more access of the player base which isn't a bad thing but it leaves those who are top players having resentment towards those that they believe shouldn't be there & this is the same premises as old builds like oakensoul that are more than capable of completing all hard mode trials just it's not at the pace other players would like so it comes down a community created issue mixed in with a road zos wanted to take the games direction in.

Personally I like to see more people doing trials & also the same goes for PvP, these people complain about how end-game trials or PvP are dying but it's a situation they create themselves mainly by gatekeeping or constantly asking for nerfs because they don't like that play style themselves.

LoL really now there are more players in the game? Didnt notice...

Yes there is more people doing trials now with group finder but only becouse group finder didn't really exist before, and the quality of those runs its really insane.. People joining and leaving after 1 wipe..Power to THE PUGS!

Ordinator199 · March 30

To me its hilarious how basically all trial guilds that are not even competing to put up top scores are asking for meaningless 120k+ combat reports, wearing extra medium piece they won't wear in a trial and food they won't use. Like whats the point? If you are not looking to get into top x on leaderboard just let people play the way they want as long as they are staying alive and are not dealing subpar damage.

Athory · March 30

Ordinator199 wrote: »

To me its hilarious how basically all trial guilds that are not even competing to put up top scores are asking for meaningless 120k+ combat reports, wearing extra medium piece they won't wear in a trial and food they won't use. Like whats the point? If you are not looking to get into top x on leaderboard just let people play the way they want as long as they are staying alive and are not dealing subpar damage.

Those guilds ask for all that not because they actually need players with 120k or specific items like X, Y, Z. They do it mostly to gatekeep. They can only take 12 players, but the guild has 200 members.

Don’t take it personally—it’s just a way to keep some players out without breaking the “guild” image… lol, sure.

maryjane1412 · March 30

My main is a one bar HA sorc, i did every trial in the game carrying my own weight as a DD.
Recently i noticed the hate towards one bar builds and HA. and i dont like it.
i had to leave a guild because they wont accept an 80K DD on their trials.

if a DD can carry his role just fine and perform top notch in PVE , what do people have against it ?

meanwhile arcanist is a 1 skill class and lets be fair and i dont see people complaining about it.

playsforfun · March 30

olda90 wrote: »

playsforfun wrote: »

This all comes down to powercreep, the faster the better as more chance of survival & finishing.

Looking back at the time when 30k DPS was good DPS to do the craglorn trials it was slow & hard back then which I miss when you actually had to be good & do mechs but due to powercreep all trials in game are rushed & easily crushed even by pug groups, I think this was to allow more access of the player base which isn't a bad thing but it leaves those who are top players having resentment towards those that they believe shouldn't be there & this is the same premises as old builds like oakensoul that are more than capable of completing all hard mode trials just it's not at the pace other players would like so it comes down a community created issue mixed in with a road zos wanted to take the games direction in.

Personally I like to see more people doing trials & also the same goes for PvP, these people complain about how end-game trials or PvP are dying but it's a situation they create themselves mainly by gatekeeping or constantly asking for nerfs because they don't like that play style themselves.

LoL really now there are more players in the game? Didnt notice...

Yes there is more people doing trials now with group finder but only becouse group finder didn't really exist before, and the quality of those runs its really insane.. People joining and leaving after 1 wipe..Power to THE PUGS!

More solo players the game has changed towards this, the end game trial scene is pretty much non-existant compared to prior years.