Higher Arcs of IA

DestroyerPewnack · March 23

Is everyone okay with the difficulty of higher arcs being almost exclusively a function of more enemy damage and more enemy health? I watched some gameplay videos of people reaching higher arcs, and it's the most boring thing I've ever seen. They were essentially playing as solo tanks, desperately trying to avoid getting oneshot by everything, while slowly chipping away at the enemies' health bars, hoping that their verses/visions would carry them through it. How is this okay?

In other PvE content, sure, activating HM would give the enemy a reasonable boost in health and damage, but the real difficulty comes from new mechanics being introduced.

So it got me thinking, maybe the problem (if there is one?) is in the way this game mode has been designed. The best roguelikes I know are not "infinite". They have a set number of acts. This means the developers are not expected to find a way to guarantee that you die in the end, and therefore, they don't have to rely on things like scaling up enemy health/damage forever.

In my view, the thing that makes all of this even worse is that there's no real incentive to put yourself through that misery. It's more efficient to farm Archival Fortunes on lower arcs, and there is no exclusive or perfected gear that you can only get from higher arcs. Leaderboard rewards? Currently on PC EU, the folks in last position have reached 4/1/1. Basically, they beat the third arc, packed their stuff and left, thereby guaranteeing that they'll get their non-curated weekly leaderboard reward.

There's so much potential being wasted in this game mode.

Malyore · March 23

It does introduce more mechanics. Unless you mean once you reach arc 5?

I'd be fine with them introducing even more mechanics in the earlier arcs. Tackling IA is what really finetuned my build and got me a lot better at playing solo. Increasing the amount of teaching it does could be fun. Especially since it uses bosses from trials and dungeons already.
Once I get around arc 4, I usually stop. The time doesn't become worth the currency imo.

tsaescishoeshiner · March 23

Around Arc 5 or 6, them having more health and damage does essentially add mechanics—you suddenly have to deal with negates, immunity bubbles, healers, because so many combinations of adds are alive.

Around Arc 6 or 7 it really starts being a slog because the adds have bajillions of health, on top of how long it takes to get there in the first place if the first few Arcs are trivial for you and you need to reach a higher Arc to be challenged.

Past that I can only imagine it becomes even slower. I think that's fine because it probably stops being rewarding for the time it takes, so it's more of a personal goal/build challenge. And you've been in there for hours at that point.

Thumbless_Bot · March 23

The worst part is that you are basically living on the hopes of getting one buff, focused efforts.
The arc is still fun for the challenge it is though.

Necrotech_Master · March 23

yeah a lot of the enemy mechanics become more important to pay attention to, dots all start to hurt a lot instead of shrug them off, heavy attacks even from basic trash become deadly

in terms of "new mechanics" like actually giving the npcs more attacks, if the enemy health and dmg did not increase then those would likely become moot as you could still melt everything and high arcs wouldnt be as difficult

DenverRalphy · March 23

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

The worst part is that you are basically living on the hopes of getting one buff, focused efforts.
The arc is still fun for the challenge it is though.

A lot of players seem to think focused efforts is the most important, but it's really not. Focused efforts is only good for speed runs of the first few arcs. Get to arc 4 after stacking too many focused efforts and you'll really feel the sting.

DestroyerPewnack · March 23

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

in terms of "new mechanics" like actually giving the npcs more attacks, if the enemy health and dmg did not increase then those would likely become moot as you could still melt everything and high arcs wouldnt be as difficult

I'm not opposed to giving enemies more health, but there must be a happy medium between making enemies melt instantly, and making it so that they only take chip damage.

And the mechanics don't need to originate from the adds themselves. They can be room/environment related.

benzenexz · March 23

It appears to me that simply IA is not your thing, and I'd say you have been imagining it to be some other stuffs. There are tons of dungeons and trials and overland bosses, but there's only one IA, so one have to be extra cautious as to not mix them up altogether.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Is everyone okay with the difficulty of higher arcs being almost exclusively a function of more enemy damage and more enemy health?

Yes I'm very ok with that, what else would you make to increase difficulty both gradually and infinitely? Quantity of mobs? How about forced latency?

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I watched some gameplay videos of people reaching higher arcs, and it's the most boring thing I've ever seen.

But have you ever played yourself into higher (like arc8+) arcs?

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

They were essentially playing as solo tanks, desperately trying to avoid getting oneshot by everything, while slowly chipping away at the enemies' health bars, hoping that their verses/visions would carry them through it.

taking hit does not mean playing tank, and if one is soloing it, then one do all the taking hits, dodging hits, healing up and dealing dmg.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

How is this okay?

Why is that not ok? It's the same as soloing anything.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

In other PvE content, sure, activating HM would give the enemy a reasonable boost in health and damage, but the real difficulty comes from new mechanics being introduced.

As this is not other PvE content, it doesn't have to follow the unspoken modem that the other group dungeon or trials follow, also, from normal mode to vet mode, most fights have no additional mechanics, and if only HM would introduce additional mechanics (some of which in my point of view is a total random aesthetic mixture), since there's no HM in IA, there shouldn't be additional mechanics.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

So it got me thinking, maybe the problem (if there is one?) is in the way this game mode has been designed. The best roguelikes I know are not "infinite". They have a set number of acts. This means the developers are not expected to find a way to guarantee that you die in the end, and therefore, they don't have to rely on things like scaling up enemy health/damage forever.

The Infinite Archive is by design "INFINITE" as indicated in its name. And what you are describing is simply a no death run on whatever content. If you really believe that's how you think to be the "best roguelike", then maybe you should try pull up group to no death all the dungoens and trials instead of messing up with IA, not to mention that you have multiple chances to die before really ending a run in IA.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

In my view, the thing that makes all of this even worse is that there's no real incentive to put yourself through that misery.

While you may dislike simply facing things that hits harder and harder, there could be other people who like to challenge themselves and to see how strong they could be. In that case, this would be the exact incentive, which if it makes no sense to you then it must be not your thing.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

It's more efficient to farm Archival Fortunes on lower arcs, and there is no exclusive or perfected gear that you can only get from higher arcs.

With proper build and a good partner (and a good yourself of course), it can be as the same efficiency into higher arcs as in simply just arc1, and for those who just want to do delve into a long challenge, the sense of accomplishment is not something you may get from repeating arc1

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Leaderboard rewards? Currently on PC EU, the folks in last position have reached 4/1/1. Basically, they beat the third arc, packed their stuff and left, thereby guaranteeing that they'll get their non-curated weekly leaderboard reward.

The 10 crystal and a set piece is a complete joke to be considered a WEEKLY leaderboard reward, not to mention that the leaderboard is so long. If you really become so desperate to get more transmute crystal, just create a new char and run the daily base game pledges. 10 per day, almost no difficulty.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

There's so much potential being wasted in this game mode.

I personally also feel so, but completely based on what IA is instead of just imagining it to be other already existing stuffs.

As a conclusion for the title, Higher Arcs of IA, oh how I miss those runs even though I wouldn't just throw myself in lightly due to my busy and troublesome RL. Wish I would have the leisure to run one soon.

Treeshka · March 23

The thing about Infinite Archive is that your build does not stay same throughout the run. For example in my solo runs i use different builds at the start and then change it to another as i go deeper into the Arcs. This is fun for some people including me, constantly changing build based on your visions and boss encounters.

Sometimes i play safer during an Arc and face Marauder, after Marauder cycle is passed, i switch to another build to clear next add wave faster for example. Certain bosses also makes me change skills and even sets.

About higher Arcs being turned into misery, well with the right Visions and builds, even in solo, you can clear some later Arcs as fast as first Arcs. Surely after certain Arcs this is not the case but amount of Fortunes you can get from each cycle caps out at Arc 9 or 10 if i remember correctly so it is up to the player to decide how long they want to keep going after this point.

I wish they add more variety to this mode. More bosses, more locations, banishing system for visions. More variety of things to buy with Fortunes. What i also said in another thread that they could really just use already made locations for levels here. Imagine Fungal Grotto dungeon as a cycle or maybe part of it.

DestroyerPewnack · March 23

benzenexz wrote: »

Yes I'm very ok with that, what else would you make to increase difficulty both gradually and infinitely? Quantity of mobs? How about forced latency?

So it's either keep things as they are, or add forced latency? Do you know what a false dichotomy is? There are so many other things that can be added to increase difficulty organically, without mindlessly boosting enemy health and damage. Some of the bosses you fight are recycled from other dungeons, right? I don't see what the issue would be if they recycled some of those dungeons' mechanics, and started adding them to the higher arcs in the non-boss parts.

benzenexz wrote: »

taking hit does not mean playing tank

No, but having 50k+ health in full heavy armor, perma-blocking and doing peanut damage does. You also take all the damage when you're in a vet solo arena, or when you're soloing a world boss, but no one runs those activities with the spec I just mentioned, do they? So let's not pretend it's the same thing.

benzenexz wrote: »

As this is not other PvE content, it doesn't have to follow the unspoken modem that the other group dungeon or trials follow

Yes, I know. I am comparing and contrasting IA to other PvE content in the game, to make a point. I can't compare IA to IA, because IA is IA. Can't believe I have to explain this...

benzenexz wrote: »

The Infinite Archive is by design "INFINITE" as indicated in its name.

It was called the Eternal Archive before. Names can change, that's no problem. And again, as I clearly stated in my initial post, I know that it's infinite by design. I wasn't waiting for you to point it out for me. I am criticizing that particular design choice, and I am saying it is responsible for the way IA plays out.

I'm all for having a respectful discussion, but if you decide to keep up with the sarcasm and silly remarks, don't expect another reply from me.

DestroyerPewnack · March 23

Treeshka wrote: »

The thing about Infinite Archive is that your build does not stay same throughout the run. For example in my solo runs i use different builds at the start and then change it to another as i go deeper into the Arcs. This is fun for some people including me, constantly changing build based on your visions and boss encounters.

Sometimes i play safer during an Arc and face Marauder, after Marauder cycle is passed, i switch to another build to clear next add wave faster for example. Certain bosses also makes me change skills and even sets.

About higher Arcs being turned into misery, well with the right Visions and builds, even in solo, you can clear some later Arcs as fast as first Arcs. Surely after certain Arcs this is not the case but amount of Fortunes you can get from each cycle caps out at Arc 9 or 10 if i remember correctly so it is up to the player to decide how long they want to keep going after this point.

I wish they add more variety to this mode. More bosses, more locations, banishing system for visions. More variety of things to buy with Fortunes. What i also said in another thread that they could really just use already made locations for levels here. Imagine Fungal Grotto dungeon as a cycle or maybe part of it.

I'm a huge fan of swapping builds. I unlocked all armory slots on my 7 main characters a long time ago. It would be super cool if I had to switch between pet-focused, guild-focused, class-focused or world-focused builds, depending on the verses/visions I get. Just preparing those builds in case I need them would be very enjoyable. But from what I've seen of IA so far, it seems like people just have a dps build for the first few arcs, and a tanky build for the later ones.

And I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I remember not being able to use the armory NPC in IA? Another instance of wasted potential, in my view.

As to dungeon-themed cycles, that's honestly an amazing idea! Fungal Grotto cycle, Vaults of Madness cycle, Frostvault cycle... I can get behind that!

benzenexz · March 23

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

So it's either keep things as they are, or add forced latency? Do you know what a false dichotomy is? There are so many other things that can be added to increase difficulty organically, without mindlessly boosting enemy health and damage. Some of the bosses you fight are recycled from other dungeons, right? I don't see what the issue would be if they recycled some of those dungeons' mechanics, and started adding them to the higher arcs in the non-boss parts.

Seriously you really even consider a forced latency to be a choice? I thought that the joke was obvious, but turns out it isn't. you were talking about proper difficulty increment each arc, but how are you going to make that possible to generate? Mechanics? You can't force mechanic to vary gradually each arc without tweaking the numbers, and ultimately it would still come back to dmg and health. Generating those with variation on space or time would cause much more complexity and at some point overrun the calculation. What's more, you want to battle those fabled and additional shard mechanics and mini elite enemies all at once with additional boss mechanics but still unsatisfied about having to be tanky to take hits? It doesn't really sound any consistant, nor does this idea sounds healthy in play. What's also worth mentioning is that on non-boss rounds there are elite enemies and the fableds, some of them can combo you to swift death easily, all there attacks are brought from their respective dungeon/trial/world. What you are suggesting now has always been in IA since its release.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Yes, I know. I am comparing and contrasting IA to other PvE content in the game, to make a point. I can't compare IA to IA, because IA is IA. Can't believe I have to explain this...

To bring up something in a talk just to make a point doesn't really sounds solid to justify the content of the point, in this case, that you want IA to introduce more mechanic as a means of increasing difficulties just because you've classified it in the PvE category and you consider that additional mechanic should be THE thing to make difference. If you've ever been through the first 4 arcs you should have known that there're additional things between each of them. Were you suggesting them non-existing?

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

It was called the Eternal Archive before. Names can change, that's no problem. And again, as I clearly stated in my initial post, I know that it's infinite by design. I wasn't waiting for you to point it out for me. I am criticizing that particular design choice, and I am saying it is responsible for the way IA plays out.

I don't play PTS so I have no info in its test states, but on live server release it was initially called Endless Archive. However, "Endless", "Eternal", "Infinite", these adjectives are there to describe the idea of the place, being something that has no hard-caps. And I would come back to what I said previously, it is also designed to be harder each arc. Making it so may guarantee your death but not making it so (if no difficulty increase) simply makes it monotone and even more boring. And then we are again back to the first part, how to make the difficulty possible both gradual and infinitely? Adding more mechanics and more combinations of mechanics is not infinite mathematically speaking, you only have that many to draw from your base set. And again, there are already too much going on at the same time when arcs becomes high, more random mixture isn't any healthy.

I seriously doubt if you've ever run IA any, or been past the first 4 arcs. You only said that you watched a video, and many of your suggestion and explanation to your suggestion sound like either unneeded because already existing or just to make things worse. I don't think watching video is the why this game is called a video game. I do urge you to go there yourself if you really haven't been there. If you have run IA a lot and still think more additional mechanic needed, then probably you were right about it being much potential wasted as I certainly wouldn't put myself into misery stronger than it is already.

valenwood_vegan · March 23

A big reason it's not being run very much imo is that IA has been mostly abandoned like many other systems that have been added over the years. We're still waiting on that third class set. There haven't been new rewards added in ages. IA was last updated in u43 if I'm remembering correctly. It's the same enemies, the same verses and visions, the same side quests, every single time. Some of us really did enjoy it and ran it a lot and have *everything* one can get from it, but It gets old when it's left stagnant for months to years.

AlterBlika · March 23

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

No, but having 50k+ health in full heavy armor, perma-blocking and doing peanut damage does. You also take all the damage when you're in a vet solo arena, or when you're soloing a world boss, but no one runs those activities with the spec I just mentioned, do they? So let's not pretend it's the same thing.

Solo arenas and world bosses don't represent solo content well, idk why you're even bringing them up. Of course you don't need extremely tanky builds for these, you just use a dps build with some breach source and maybe a heal.

Tbh try something harder and you'll see that soloing in this game is all about getting your build right and being able to sustain long fights. It's the same concept in IA. If you don't like it then perhaps it's just not your thing?

Malyore · March 23

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

benzenexz wrote: »

taking hit does not mean playing tank

No, but having 50k+ health in full heavy armor, perma-blocking and doing peanut damage does. You also take all the damage when you're in a vet solo arena, or when you're soloing a world boss, but no one runs those activities with the spec I just mentioned, do they? So let's not pretend it's the same thing.

I do.
My solo build is at the armor cap and utilizes 30k damage-shields, while also dealing a successful amount of damage to arena and DLC world bosses for it to not take forever.

And what is wrong with that? IA helped me make my solo build stronger because of its difficulty and mechanics. Now I can confidentiality approach most non-trial content solo after applying what I learned from the higher arcs of IA.

DestroyerPewnack · March 23

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

A big reason it's not being run very much imo is that IA has been mostly abandoned like many other systems that have been added over the years. We're still waiting on that third class set. There haven't been new rewards added in ages. IA was last updated in u43 if I'm remembering correctly. It's the same enemies, the same verses and visions, the same side quests, every single time. Some of us really did enjoy it and ran it a lot and have *everything* one can get from it, but It gets old when it's left stagnant for months to years.

This is also true, absolutely.
I know they did add the reroll functionality for verses/visions recently, but it's too expensive, and it's not that big a change.

DestroyerPewnack · March 23

AlterBlika wrote: »

Solo arenas and world bosses don't represent solo content well, idk why you're even bringing them up.

You don't know why I'm bringing up "solo" arenas when talking about "solo" content..? Interesting. O_O

AlterBlika wrote: »

If you don't like it then perhaps it's just not your thing?

You're probably right. I'll just farm the first 3 arcs over and over again, and as soon as my stickerbook is filled, I won't touch IA ever again. At least, not in its current state. I'm genuinely happy though to have found out that there are people who are actually pleased with it as it is. Maybe the devs do know what they're doing.

Orbital78 · March 23

I kind of lost interest in the infinite archive a long time ago. They need to fix things with companions and incentivize actually going into deeper arcs. I did level 1 to 3 Arc repeats for the armor and that's about done now. It'd be nice if they look at the some of the armor sets to make them useful as well.

Necrotech_Master · March 24

Treeshka wrote: »

The thing about Infinite Archive is that your build does not stay same throughout the run. For example in my solo runs i use different builds at the start and then change it to another as i go deeper into the Arcs. This is fun for some people including me, constantly changing build based on your visions and boss encounters.

Sometimes i play safer during an Arc and face Marauder, after Marauder cycle is passed, i switch to another build to clear next add wave faster for example. Certain bosses also makes me change skills and even sets.

About higher Arcs being turned into misery, well with the right Visions and builds, even in solo, you can clear some later Arcs as fast as first Arcs. Surely after certain Arcs this is not the case but amount of Fortunes you can get from each cycle caps out at Arc 9 or 10 if i remember correctly so it is up to the player to decide how long they want to keep going after this point.

I wish they add more variety to this mode. More bosses, more locations, banishing system for visions. More variety of things to buy with Fortunes. What i also said in another thread that they could really just use already made locations for levels here. Imagine Fungal Grotto dungeon as a cycle or maybe part of it.

at least they have been trickling new stuff in there, in the last 6-8 months they have also added in ability to buy purple furnishing plans, and more stuff on the rotation vendor (ive greatly appreciated buying stuff from there instead of spending insane amounts of gold at traders for the furnishing plans)

im sure they have a lot to juggle with all of the systems in the game along with the full class overhauls

CatalinaWineMixer2 · March 24

I always liked IA but it's pretty time consuming and my rng is so bad😂 Sweaty hands (stop nerfing the tanks), bio breaks, cigarette breaks, ect. People have fallen asleep in there😂 Ive seen it. Depending on how and who you go with. After getting so far after a few times, it's really not something I consider worth it. I like the way its put together, kind of a unique place, but the reps for the gear (most of which is junk nowadays) just simply isnt worth it. If they offered halfway decent class sets again, it would probably entice more people. The leaderboard there just isn't worth it either. If you dont go far in it, it's really just more farming which I've had enough of over the years. It IS a good place for new players to get better, and I wouldn't want to see it go away

Thumbless_Bot · April 3

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

The worst part is that you are basically living on the hopes of getting one buff, focused efforts.
The arc is still fun for the challenge it is though.

A lot of players seem to think focused efforts is the most important, but it's really not. Focused efforts is only good for speed runs of the first few arcs. Get to arc 4 after stacking too many focused efforts and you'll really feel the sting.

I dont understand this comment. Stacking too many fe causes you to get hit harder?

DenverRalphy · April 3

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

The worst part is that you are basically living on the hopes of getting one buff, focused efforts.
The arc is still fun for the challenge it is though.

A lot of players seem to think focused efforts is the most important, but it's really not. Focused efforts is only good for speed runs of the first few arcs. Get to arc 4 after stacking too many focused efforts and you'll really feel the sting.

I dont understand this comment. Stacking too many fe causes you to get hit harder?

Choosing focused efforts over everything else results in your defense not being adequate the higher you go. You can stack FE all you want, but it doesn't mean squat if you're too busy keeping yourself alive.