Why is PvP so unbalanced?

Andyman706 · March 22

What’s going on with PvP? Why was 4v4v4 removed? Right now it feels really unbalanced, and you literally can’t play with a group without risking a nightmare match. My buddy and I were playing and two players didn’t connect, so we were stuck fighting four players. We were completely outmatched and couldn’t do anything. If we still had 4v4v4, we at least could have third-partied and had a chance. Maybe consider bringing that back, or even adding something like a 2v2v2 mode to help balance situations like this. What’s frustrating is it didn’t just happen once. It happened two more times. Then we finally got a 3v3 match, but one player on our team left, so it became a 2v3. Then matchmaking added another player to the opposite team, turning it into a 2v4. How is that even possible?
I don’t understand the decision to remove 4v4v4 at all. It feels really short-sighted and has made PvP less fair and less enjoyable.

Orbital78 · March 22

MMO PvP is almost never, ever, balanced. It just is what it is, when they try to balance PVP and PVE at the same time. Their ranking system is broken as well, which doesn't help the BG situation any.

Markytous · March 22

The loss of 3-Team Format was very painful and ESO PVP has never recovered since its removal. Here's to hoping its returned to more than just a weekend mode for BGs.

Gabriel_H · March 22

Class A provides buff W
Class B provides buff X
Class C provides buff Y
Class D provides buff Z

W is extra healing
X is extra damage done
Y is extra damage reduction
Z is extra ultimate generation

A + B + C + D vs A + B + C + D = balanced. Any other non-matching combination is unbalanced.

With 4 variables there are dozens of combinations. i.e. ABCD, AACD, AABC etc. So more often than not you will have 2 different sets of 4.

xFocused · March 22

Because Zos doesn't play PvP in this game. I get that they say they do and might have a team working on the PvP side of things but look at the state of BG's and Cyro and you get the sense that they truly have no clue what it's like on that side of the game

tsaescishoeshiner · March 22

Group queue was always very competitive, even back in 3-way BGs. As a duo or even a more casual 4-stack, you're going to get stomped.

The best thing is to solo queue at the same time as your friend, which can lead to some pretty fun matches and even fighting against each other.

As much as I want a way to play as a duo sometimes, it's tough to design a queue system that works for every situation.

moderatelyfatman · March 23

Orbital78 wrote: »

MMO PvP is almost never, ever, balanced. It just is what it is, when they try to balance PVP and PVE at the same time. Their ranking system is broken as well, which doesn't help the BG situation any.

The is a big difference between 'not being balanced' and getting one-shotted by a party of tanks whose health never drops below 95%.

Most games are much better balanced but these games typically have separate PvE and PvP stats for their skills.

xFocused wrote: »

Because Zos doesn't play PvP in this game. I get that they say they do and might have a team working on the PvP side of things but look at the state of BG's and Cyro and you get the sense that they truly have no clue what it's like on that side of the game

Even if the devs aren't hardcore PvPers, there's nothing to stop them from reaching out to the PvP community and listening to their feedback.

MincMincMinc · March 23

The MMR system resets too frequently for the purpose of allowing new players a chance at seeing themselves on a leaderboard......funny since what the system actually does is what OP has described and the BG community has complained about in dozens of threads with 10, 20, 30+ pages each complaining about the issue. The system basically guarantees and forces smurfing to happen, forcing older veterans to pugstomp new players until their MMR climbs away. Comically as an endgame PvPer all you want to do is have fun fighting, yet doing just that in low MMR can actually make you lose matches because the other team can just run objectives. So as a 12 year veteran PvPer, PvPing can lead you to not climb MMR as fast as you should.

So the average endgame player experience is that....

you come back to the game after a couple week break, but since MMR reset you need to farm matches to get MMR back before you can even play with guildies. So you spend the first week back in the game getting home from work having to slaughter brand new players over and over going 50/0 each match while wasting your pots and food. Either you get bored doing that or you last long enough to play against your friends in high MMR.....just to get bored of the patch and go on hiatus again because 90% of the builds are running the new one trick pony setup that plays exactly the same.

The average new/casual PvP player like OP....

describes views matches as unbalanced or inconsistent because one match they play is fairly even with all new players of equal skill level. Then the next match has one team going 50/0 while the other team goes 0/50.

Guys we cant be matchmaking 12 year pvp veterans with cp200 players. No other BG issue matters until this gets fixed.

CameraBeardThePirate · March 23

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

MMO PvP is almost never, ever, balanced. It just is what it is, when they try to balance PVP and PVE at the same time. Their ranking system is broken as well, which doesn't help the BG situation any.

The is a big difference between 'not being balanced' and getting one-shotted by a party of tanks whose health never drops below 95%.

Most games are much better balanced but these games typically have separate PvE and PvP stats for their skills.

Ok I get what you mean here, but if someone is one-shotting you they are assuredly not a tank. If you can't get someone who has the damage to one shot another player below 95%, it means you need to get a better damage combo or build.

People talk a lot about this with Cyrodiil tower humpers and 1vXers, saying that they're all "tanks that can turn around and kill you instantly". A build like that is not a tank; they have very good defense that is extremely high during their defensive windows, and offensive windows where they drop block or can't afford to take a big hit. Learning when to hit these players is just as important as learning how to hit these players.

A true tank will not have any damage and will have the block sustain to tank a zerg as long as no one drops a negate on them.

LonePirate · March 23

If you have played PVP for a couple of days or more during the last several years, you’ll know exactly why it is not balanced.

Weesacs · March 23

The players in team death match (solo queue) should be rotated after each round so that the overall game is more balanced. They do this in WoW arena and its very successful.

Your individual scores for each of the rounds are then added after round 3 and applied to the leaderboards.

Went 500-0 down in the first round? Hopefully in the second round with a different team you will fair better. Then another player rotation in the third round.

This would remove the feeling of wasting time and being disheartened after the first round because you would know in the second round that you should hopefully be in a better, more balanced team.

As this approach would only apply to the solo queue (as you would have no affiliation to your team mates) then it wouldn't matter if your team changes each round.

This approach would help with team rotations of healers, tanks, experienced and inexperienced players, godlike players, mediocre players, etc ... after each round.

Can only see it being a win-win situation for all involved so hopefully something like this will get implemented.

Oh, and remove the stupid long spawn camping times - get the players onto the battlefield quicker!

xFocused · March 23

LonePirate wrote: »

If you have played PVP for a couple of days or more during the last several years, you’ll know exactly why it is not balanced.

Perfectly said. Unkillable ball groups out of control, players with 45k health and high resistances one shotting players, siege being absolutely useless against stacked Heals and the absurd strength of shields, Rush Of Agony and the Warden charm script...Cyrodiil is such a mess that I've seen countless guilds and veteran PvP players just quit the game altogether because it's not worth the headache anymore

SneaK · March 23

They should throw us into a lobby and make us pick teams and roles like it’s an EA Sports Hockey League game.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · March 24

The only way is a departure from over 10 years of what they've been doing concerning PvP. Until that happens, the rest of us are just slowly going to stop pretending this insanity is fun. It is not. It was easy with U49 and IC, there wasn't anything slow about it, everyone just quit. I still go to Cyrodiil but I've about had it there too. 10 years of the same old song, "Nerf this set, nerf that class, nerf that skill line, take away that class ability, we cant allow damage shields, we dont want healing in there, ect" I liked Vengeance. I would play Vengeance. My guilds would and have played Vengeance. It was already bad in all PvP, Subclass is just bringing about the end.

DMuehlhausen · March 24

the biggest reason you're using skills designed to kill trial / raid bosses with 10s, 100s, of millions or even billion+ health against enemies with 40k hp. Yes you can make adjustments and cap to a % etc, but it still isn't going to be balanced.

The only way you could even come close is to have PvP only version of each skill line or just a PvP skill / weapon tree. Those skills can only be used in a Battleground, or Cyrodil. Then you can just set a level of damage that you might be able to balance.

There would still be issues, there always are, and they are always people who find ways to break the system and get an advantage.

Andyman706 · March 27

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Group queue was always very competitive, even back in 3-way BGs. As a duo or even a more casual 4-stack, you're going to get stomped.

The best thing is to solo queue at the same time as your friend, which can lead to some pretty fun matches and even fighting against each other.

As much as I want a way to play as a duo sometimes, it's tough to design a queue system that works for every situation.

Facts! I started doing that and it was awesome matches. even when were fighting each other still so much more fun.

Andyman706 · March 27

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

MMO PvP is almost never, ever, balanced. It just is what it is, when they try to balance PVP and PVE at the same time. Their ranking system is broken as well, which doesn't help the BG situation any.

The is a big difference between 'not being balanced' and getting one-shotted by a party of tanks whose health never drops below 95%.

Most games are much better balanced but these games typically have separate PvE and PvP stats for their skills.

xFocused wrote: »

Because Zos doesn't play PvP in this game. I get that they say they do and might have a team working on the PvP side of things but look at the state of BG's and Cyro and you get the sense that they truly have no clue what it's like on that side of the game

Even if the devs aren't hardcore PvPers, there's nothing to stop them from reaching out to the PvP community and listening to their feedback.

True and thats part of the problem. Especially now with all the DKs running around.

Andyman706 · March 27

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The MMR system resets too frequently for the purpose of allowing new players a chance at seeing themselves on a leaderboard......funny since what the system actually does is what OP has described and the BG community has complained about in dozens of threads with 10, 20, 30+ pages each complaining about the issue. The system basically guarantees and forces smurfing to happen, forcing older veterans to pugstomp new players until their MMR climbs away. Comically as an endgame PvPer all you want to do is have fun fighting, yet doing just that in low MMR can actually make you lose matches because the other team can just run objectives. So as a 12 year veteran PvPer, PvPing can lead you to not climb MMR as fast as you should.

So the average endgame player experience is that....
you come back to the game after a couple week break, but since MMR reset you need to farm matches to get MMR back before you can even play with guildies. So you spend the first week back in the game getting home from work having to slaughter brand new players over and over going 50/0 each match while wasting your pots and food. Either you get bored doing that or you last long enough to play against your friends in high MMR.....just to get bored of the patch and go on hiatus again because 90% of the builds are running the new one trick pony setup that plays exactly the same.

The average new/casual PvP player like OP....
describes views matches as unbalanced or inconsistent because one match they play is fairly even with all new players of equal skill level. Then the next match has one team going 50/0 while the other team goes 0/50.

Guys we cant be matchmaking 12 year pvp veterans with cp200 players. No other BG issue matters until this gets fixed.

THATS CRAZY I was wondering why I was getting a one man army players...ZOS needs to stop that Leaderboards SHOULD NEVER RESET!

AvalonRanger · March 28

Why is PvP so unbalanced?

Because dev permit too much wider variant of character building in PVP.

Or

Dev can't make the game by one single basis and rules.
So, there're too many of "meta" basis everywhere in the ESO.

Feel like, force many of different title into one game package.