Skipping Mechanics Is Ruining PvE Content. Please Address This

Athory · March 22

Dear ZoS,

I’d like to raise a concern about something that is increasingly affecting the quality of PvE content, specifically Trials and Dungeons.

When you design this content, it’s clearly intended for coordinated groups and meaningful mechanics. However, much of that design is currently being bypassed. Players are able to skip large portions of mechanics or even entire encounters, which undermines the experience you created.

For the first time, I skipped vOC. I always assumed that kind of thing would be nearly impossible, but it turns out it isn’t. High DPS allows players to completely bypass mechanics, and the lack of proper control systems lets groups skip entire trash packs. Honestly, it feels wrong, it removes the challenge and purpose of the content and hurts its overall integrity.
Please address this. Either enforce mechanics so they can’t be skipped, or rethink the design entirely. Right now, it feels like we’re just going boss → boss → boss, with everything else becoming irrelevant.
At that point, why not just give players the loot as soon as they enter a trial or dungeon, if the gameplay in between can be ignored?
We’re skipping dungeons, skipping trials and in a way, skipping the game itself. While some players may enjoy this, others, like me, play to actually experience and engage with the content, not bypass it.

It raises an important question: if content is designed to be played, why is it so easy to avoid playing it as intended?
Please consider implementing solutions to prevent or limit these skips, so that mechanics, teamwork, and challenge remain meaningful.

Thank you.

Aislinna · March 22

There are no game mechanics stopping you from playing dungeons and trials the way you want.

Rather then asking ZOS to modify the game to stop people from playing the way they want, form your own group and play the way you want.

Athory · March 22

Aislinna wrote: »

There are no game mechanics stopping you from playing dungeons and trials the way you want.

Rather then asking ZOS to modify the game to stop people from playing the way they want, form your own group and play the way you want.

Great reply! I’ll give you an "Awesome" and add it to my signature so I don’t forget it. ^

Malyore · March 22

It seems usually the way ZOS enforces mechanics is to just give the boss several phases of invincibility until the mechanic is completed, which I would argue is even less fun to deal with.

Skorro · March 22

Malyore wrote: »

It seems usually the way ZOS enforces mechanics is to just give the boss several phases of invincibility until the mechanic is completed, which I would argue is even less fun to deal with.

This TBH

In fairness, a lot of mechanic skips are because a large portion of the group prep pre-buffs, big burst, rotation of ults, etc. if this is the case - good on em 🙂

Please, no tedious invulnerability phases...

Lord_Hev · March 22

The problem is not going away with current trajectory. The class refreshes will maintain the high power creep brought on by subclassing. The only sensible solution to this is the reintroduction soft-caps and the rebalancing of all content with soft-caps in mind.

Gabriel_H · March 22

Malyore wrote: »

It seems usually the way ZOS enforces mechanics is to just give the boss several phases of invincibility until the mechanic is completed, which I would argue is even less fun to deal with.

There are a few bosses that use another method. If you don't pace the damage you get ALL the mechanics at once. Naj Bosses 1 & 2 are good examples of this (3 also, but less so). If you keep damaging the boss, rather than dealing with the adds/totems you have an absolute truckload of things to deal with that can kill you, and mechanics that get in the way of tanks holding too many at once.

I much prefer that kind of solution than the invincibility one to make DDs throttle their numbers. It adds an extra dimension of difficulty and skill. I'd love to see more of it. I feel for the designers who have created some really fun dungeons whose design is rendered all but meaningless by power creep.

Other MMOs tend to go down the threat route. I find that dull and uninventive (even more than invincibility) as the basis for the fight is always tanks need to out-generate threat and little else in mechanics terms, whereas ESOs approach has been to have more dynamic fights.

The threat system has a built in dps throttle. i.e it doesn't matter if you can do 140k dps, because the max equivelent of threat the tank can generate is 100k. That natural throttle doesn't exist in ESO, except in the rare type I mentioned above. Invincibility fights don't have it as it's just burn, stand around chatting, burn some more. Yet, there is potential in the all-mechanics at once fights to have a throttle that if ignored punishes by making things more difficult for the group. It has the potential to take the Sub-Arc-Beam can do 150k, but DK can only do 140k and throw it out of the window because only 120k would be needed.

Renato90085 · March 23

U46 power creep is 60k,it like in one patch add the sum of the past 10 years..
normal need stop spamblade to save mech can work,high rank player need afk in hardmode to wait mech

Oblivion_Protocol · March 23

I’m afraid you’re in the minority here, OP. Some of us have played this content dozens, if not hundreds of times. Anything to make it go faster is a blessing. And considering that most of the players in this game are still people who’ve been in it for a year or longer, you’re most likely going to have to specifically look for groups that want to do mechanics.

Athory · March 23

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I’m afraid you’re in the minority here, OP. Some of us have played this content dozens, if not hundreds of times. Anything to make it go faster is a blessing. And considering that most of the players in this game are still people who’ve been in it for a year or longer, you’re most likely going to have to specifically look for groups that want to do mechanics.

I really understand what you’re saying and how you feel. I also don’t like playing the same content in RND, but from time to time it puts me there and I play it. Because when I log in, it’s to play the game. If I wanted to skip it, I wouldn’t log in at all. Does that make sense?

But like I said, ZoS could change trials and dungeons so players get the reward when they queue. Instead of queuing for RND content, players could queue and instantly receive the reward.
The same goes for skipping trash in trials. As soon as the game detects players skipping any trash pack, the trial should end and an NPC should appear so we can finish the quest and claim the reward. Does that make sense? Or would that make skipping too fast?

By the way, what would be a fair time for skipping?

benzenexz · March 23

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

It seems usually the way ZOS enforces mechanics is to just give the boss several phases of invincibility until the mechanic is completed, which I would argue is even less fun to deal with.

There are a few bosses that use another method. If you don't pace the damage you get ALL the mechanics at once. Naj Bosses 1 & 2 are good examples of this (3 also, but less so). If you keep damaging the boss, rather than dealing with the adds/totems you have an absolute truckload of things to deal with that can kill you, and mechanics that get in the way of tanks holding too many at once.

I personally feel that this is the most viable solution to this problem, however this still doesn't solve the power creep that may accumulate over time (patches after patches of updates)

The best mechanic designs hence should be unaffected by dps numbers
Some good examples that I just thought of in respect of this concept:
ER: 1st boss, the group blocking mechanics; final boss, the orbs
OP: 1st boss, the totem
BS: 2nd boss, the orbs
GD: final boss, the soul splintering, the fear, and the water ball
MoS: final boss, hunt phase

frogthroat · March 23

I think the only skip prevention we need is what they already use in many of the newer dungeons: for HM, speedrun and no death you need to kill bosses and all the encounters. Not sure if this applies to pledges if you do HM pledges, but HM pledges should include all encounters.

For skipping boss mechanics, depends on the boss. It's good to have straight forward tank and spank bosses so you can nuke it if you want. And good to have some where you need to deal with mechanics/ads or risk getting overwhelmed. A good example of both at the same time is the last boss of Exiled Redoubt. You can try to nuke it, but if you fail, now you have a dozen of atros to deal with.

What I, and probably everyone else, do not like are invincibility stages. Some are done ok, like the last boss of Scrivener's Hall where you have to run from one place to another. But often it's just an artificial "stop playing and wait" mechanic.

And all of this should depend on how you want to play. Sometimes I want quick XP in the form of daily randoms. Then I am all for skipping everything we can and nuke the bosses. Other times I want the challenge and then we figure out the best method of dealing with multiple trash packs in fewest stops possible.

Orbital78 · March 23

If the group is good enough, they deserve to skip the mechs. Most players cannot, therefore a non-issue for most. If they keep raising the top and not the bottom enough, this is what you are going to get. Filling PVE with more invulnerability phases and boring trash packs is not the solution.

frogthroat · March 23

Orbital78 wrote: »

boring trash packs

The two latest dungeons are a good example of fun trash packs and boring trash packs.

In N-C there are some challenge in those trash packs. Especially the last few. Those are actually fun and not just filler. And the trash can actually kill you.

In BGF the trash are spread far and wide and you got to look for them to not miss them. Those are boring fillers. I suppose the designer had a vision, but it fell flat in execution. In the beginning it's just hide and seek with the trash. And then inside the corridors it's just repeating the same over and over until all the corridors and rooms blend into one.

moderatelyfatman · March 23

This is what happens when a game experiences uncontrolled powercreep.

Barto92 · March 23

I totally get what OP is saying and I'm glad someone noticed that. The rampant powercreep in the game takes away a lot of the fun that comes from actually mastering mechanic-heavy content. There’s a big difference between doing big damage and doing big damage while executing all mechanics. That’s where the real skill is. Pulling that off is what makes the game extremely satisfying and fun.

It’s nice to see people saying that powercreep is good because it lets you farm content you’ve already done 1000 times before. But that raises a bigger question: what is the actual purpose of the game? Is it about tackling on challenges, playing mechanically demanding, coordination-heavy content, and getting that sense of accomplishment? Or is it just about... grinding?

If the game stops being a challenge, then what’s the point of the grind at all? For what do you need trial/dungeon items if not for doing harder content then?

Eliahnus · March 23

Funny how some people think that their opinion is the only possible truth.

Orbital78 · March 23

frogthroat wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

boring trash packs

The two latest dungeons are a good example of fun trash packs and boring trash packs.

In N-C there are some challenge in those trash packs. Especially the last few. Those are actually fun and not just filler. And the trash can actually kill you.

In BGF the trash are spread far and wide and you got to look for them to not miss them. Those are boring fillers. I suppose the designer had a vision, but it fell flat in execution. In the beginning it's just hide and seek with the trash. And then inside the corridors it's just repeating the same over and over until all the corridors and rooms blend into one.

The summoners?

The only trash I focus in that place.

As for the OP, many of my guildmates cannot even clear vOC. As a core, they might. Many have stated that they actually "hate" that trial. None of the gear is currently that great and it is just an annoying trial with many trash pulls having range ai to not pull well. Most of the players I team with that can clear it only want to fill the stickerbook in the hopes that the gear eventually gets buffed to be more useful and then plan to never touch it again, unless it is voted to be run again.

Barto92 · March 23

Eliahnus wrote: »

Funny how some people think that their opinion is the only possible truth.

If you disagree, feel free to share your perspective. No need to dismiss others. That's the whole point of discussion.

Athory · March 23

Eliahnus wrote: »

Funny how some people think that their opinion is the only possible truth.

The point isn’t about who is "right" or "wrong." It’s about why we play the game. Do we play it to skip content, or to actually engage with it?
Every player has the right to fully enjoy the game, whether they join a PUG through Group Finder or create their own group. But the fundamental point remains: we log in to the game to play the game.

Right now, players are inverting the purpose of the system. As @Aislinna said:

Aislinna wrote: »

There are no game mechanics stopping you from playing dungeons and trials the way you want.
Rather then asking ZOS to modify the game to stop people from playing the way they want, form your own group and play the way you want.

This is exactly how it should be, but with one clarification: players who prefer to speed-run or skip content are the ones who should create their own groups with their rules. Regular players using Group Finder shouldn’t have to adapt to speed-runners; the system exists for everyone to play the game as intended.

Renato90085 · March 23

zos can enforce some mechanics can’t be skipped,like DSR twin HM ,you can burn single boss health in 30-50sec,but it will locked to 1% heakth and enter the bash stage mech, and both boss fight is can't skip
but other most still can skip
and PUG really not do mech even if they can't skip,like,vka mech in most player is pizza parse time,but they really have mech(kill totem/shaman /use weapon shot ship mage and clean portal to stop summon adds)
also,sometime did skip mech is hard than do mech(dps check or heal pressure , more teamwork, and challenge).

Soarora · March 23

I’m surprised by the response to this post.

Skipping trash packs can require skill in knowing where to cut across. So much so that not all skips get used regularly. The compromise is that you need to kill them all for most no death/speed runs, and I think that’s okay. RoM has an achievement specifically for killing everything— an achievement like that could be added to the content commonly skipped through that doesn’t require killing trash for the speed run/no death.

As for skipping mechanics, I disagree with the concept of “play with another group” or “nerf yourself then”. I recognize that there are people who find their fun in full burning, however those people are incredibly sweaty, going as far as to preDoT/prebuff with multiple sets of loadouts. I think that should be rewarded but I don’t think the average endgame group should casually be able to burn through mechanics. And right now, we can [in dungeons]. It doesn’t feel right to say we shouldn’t strive for optimization if we want to do the fight correctly and I disagree with the idea that power creep is needed for people to clear things. People should not wait for the content to become easier, they should become better.

The solution to burning through mechanics is not invuln phases, I agree. It’s annoying and you can burn past them anyway. I think the solution may be having more mechanics… that are not centered on the boss casting them. A lot of dungeon fights have only a handful of mechanics and almost all of them are focused on the boss casting them. If the boss does a channeled ability then it’s game over for them. Having too much damage should make mechanics overlap badly, making it harder (like multiple birds on last boss CA). That or let bosses cancel their cast to cast the next mechanic with forced coding that every mechanic happens at least once. Or perhaps just do more mechanics like Black Gem Foundry where it’s not an invuln phase but you can’t focus damage because you have to do a mechanic or you will die (like last boss on HM, the memory game. She’s not invuln in the center but you can’t just ignore the mechanic to keep wailing on her).

twisttop138 · 11:18AM

Soarora wrote: »

I’m surprised by the response to this post.

Skipping trash packs can require skill in knowing where to cut across. So much so that not all skips get used regularly. The compromise is that you need to kill them all for most no death/speed runs, and I think that’s okay. RoM has an achievement specifically for killing everything— an achievement like that could be added to the content commonly skipped through that doesn’t require killing trash for the speed run/no death.

As for skipping mechanics, I disagree with the concept of “play with another group” or “nerf yourself then”. I recognize that there are people who find their fun in full burning, however those people are incredibly sweaty, going as far as to preDoT/prebuff with multiple sets of loadouts. I think that should be rewarded but I don’t think the average endgame group should casually be able to burn through mechanics. And right now, we can [in dungeons]. It doesn’t feel right to say we shouldn’t strive for optimization if we want to do the fight correctly and I disagree with the idea that power creep is needed for people to clear things. People should not wait for the content to become easier, they should become better.

The solution to burning through mechanics is not invuln phases, I agree. It’s annoying and you can burn past them anyway. I think the solution may be having more mechanics… that are not centered on the boss casting them. A lot of dungeon fights have only a handful of mechanics and almost all of them are focused on the boss casting them. If the boss does a channeled ability then it’s game over for them. Having too much damage should make mechanics overlap badly, making it harder (like multiple birds on last boss CA). That or let bosses cancel their cast to cast the next mechanic with forced coding that every mechanic happens at least once. Or perhaps just do more mechanics like Black Gem Foundry where it’s not an invuln phase but you can’t focus damage because you have to do a mechanic or you will die (like last boss on HM, the memory game. She’s not invuln in the center but you can’t just ignore the mechanic to keep wailing on her).

I think this is the real take away from this thread. It's not black and white. Skipping trash or having high burn does not equal logging into the trial and just getting a reward box. What hyperbole. As someone who helps with weekly vet mech learning trials and dungeons for a social guild, I will say that the majority of ESO players are not prosecuting portal skips or 3 pad burns. The majority are not in danger of having too many aboms up in 2nd boss of vRG. We've had an almost 15 minute fight in that boss. No wipes. Just low burn and following mechs to the letter. Not fun for me personally, but a good way to teach. So this isn't the widespread problem it's being portrayed as.

Speaking of vRG, the solution is already in the game. In the trials. Lots of bosses where high burn can get outta hand and you have to control it. vSE 1st boss, vRG 2nd boss just off the top of my head during coffee time. There are also dungeons that have unskippable mechanics without the dreaded invuln phases.

Unfortunately, Zos was led incompetently by a man who cared only for the mmo he had waited his whole life to make, and it wasn't ESO. So with no hand at the wheel, we got subclassing the way we did. This led to insane levels of power creep, which was already a problem. This has led to people being able to have the insane burn they have. It's in the game now though. I don't see them taking away the power at the level they'd need to to have a real impact on power creep. Thankfully we seem to have an amazing leadership team at the wheel now and I look forward to them cooking.

Since in one of his comments, the op made this another 'They're playing random dungeons a way I don't want them to' thread, I'll tell him what I say in all those threads. The power is in your hands. Be the change you want to see. Form your own guild or groups or find one that aligns with your values and don't try to dictate how others should play.

L_Nici · 11:32AM

I am of the opposite opinion actually. If you do enough DPS, you earned skipping mechanics, I find that nothing is more annoying than a mechanic that is unskippable, for example the dragons in the Endless Archive, you beat them down to 0%, they get 1% back just to get their flight phase, such a waste of time, or the Dwemerthingie with the lasers and the shield, if you deal to much damage, you spend the next minutes again and again following around the shield to avoid the lasers, because it has to happen I think 5 times, all while looking at 1% health.

That is what actually annoys me in PvE, not ruining it completely, but its such a nuisance.

GloatingSwine · 11:53AM

If people are skipping mechanics by just burning through them with DPS, that means there needs to be another layer of difficulty levels to take that DPS to.

If people are skipping mechanics by bypassing groups of mobs or optional bosses, there needs to be a better incentive to interact with them (because right now the only incentive most of the time is to get to the end as fast as possible, as all the rewards are backloaded).