Sets

rockDokRock · March 16

Question - I find the variety of armor sets interesting. But what I can't understand is why 90%+ of them are basically junk - nobody will use them.

Are sets buffed from time to time? Filling out the sticker book is fun but most of this stuff you will *never* reconstruct or use which is kind of sad.

Gabriel_H · March 16

Sets are occassionally nefed, rather than buffed. It's mainly around their power in PvP.

90%+ of sets are "junk" at end-game, because they are progression sets over a period of time. New players coming into the game typically don't get that progression anymore because they just hop to the Zone or Dungeon with the latest must have and farm it.

If a new player played through the game in chronological order, over a span of years, like they didn't have access to those areas, or had to wait for those areas to unlock, then the set progression would become very evident, and they'd be able to see you evolve from (for example) Bee Keeper -> Ebon Armour -> Defending Warrior -> Lunar Bastion ... all the way up to Pearl/Lucent Echoes.

xylena · March 16

rockDokRock wrote: »

Are sets buffed from time to time? Filling out the sticker book is fun but most of this stuff you will *never* reconstruct or use which is kind of sad.

Yeah they've done set balance passes before, and should really do one again. Despite the massive amount of junk sets, and a need for new sets that push DLC and fill queues, a remarkable number of old sets are still adequate/viable or even powerful/meta, like Rallying Cry in PvP.

Soarora · March 16

I wish. Would be nice if we get set rebalancing after the class refreshes (unless they can be done simultaneously, which could help with class identity by making different sets work best on different classes— like how you’d only use frostbite on a warden).

cuddles_with_wroble · March 17

It’s very rare that sets are buffed

Sets are often nerfed into oblivion and never used again or changed in a way that makes them useless or not function in their original use

90% of the sets in the game are worthless because they never get updated or because new sets that do that same exact thing but better or easier get added and make them irrelevant

ESO is a theme park mmo at its heart and so every new piece of content has a tendency to invalidate old content and this is esp true when it comes to sets

ZhuJiuyin · March 17

Another point of contention among players is the limited range of damage types in sets. For instance, there are virtually no sets that deal shock damage. However, (in PvE) we do have at least two powerful sets that deal physical damage: Silvers of the Null Arca and Arms of Relequen, and two sets that deal bleed damage: Aegis Caller and Pillar of Nirn. Furthermore, there are almost no light armor sets suitable for DPS. The only light armor you might see on esolog is Whorl of the Depths, but even that is rarely used.

Al_Ex_Andre · March 17

Lots of sets are situational also, and could get a specific use; unfortunately they are not exactly "free" to craft, so they are let in the dust.
Which is a shame.

Thus is why I would like a system when you craft gold sets, they are memorized for your account and you could switch wear them when a good situation occurs...

LittleLionLeone · March 17

With new content being mostly free from now on hopefully that means the devs will have less incentive to just make new powerful sets instead of buffing old ones. Prior to this year there was zero financial reason to buff old sets when they could just make a new chapter with new op sets that you have to pay 40 bucks just to get.

So many cool sets that are killed by awful timers that make it not worth running.

Orbital78 · March 17

This is one of the reasons I wasn't heartbroken to see no new dungeons this season. They keep churning out sets which are quite underwhelming.

A patch dedicated to rebalances to existing sets that see little use would be great. Especially dlc sets.

ADarklore · March 17

Yeah, it's really a shame what has become of many sets, including craftable ones. However, I do believe a lot of newer sets are on-par with older sets, but most "build guides" don't even consider them anymore. So in reality, it's the meta-chasers who dictate what is or isn't a 'good set'. When in reality, there are plenty of options out there that decent. But, there are also plenty of sets that are just awful or niche.

frogthroat · March 17

And sometimes sets become viable because of changes in other areas. Like Yokeda is heavy armour, but currently you can use it because of the new Huntsman's Warmask mythic. Before that Velothi was the (only) meta mythic but that is a necklace. This means if you use Yokeda with Velothi, you have to use one body piece. Not good for DDs. But Warmask is a head piece, so you can use Yokeda jewelry and daggers now.

El_Borracho · March 17

Of those 90% that are junk, I'd say at least 1/3 of them were junk the day they were introduced. Subclassing has rendered even more of the once-strong sets totally irrelevant.

Occasionally, and older set will become viable. Normally this is in PVP because of the constant nerf hammer pounding away. A prime example was Way of Fire, a 10 year old set everyone deconned until the PVP nerfs resurrected it, only to send it back to the scrap heap when the perpetually aggrieved complained about the set showing up in their death recaps

rockDokRock · March 17

El_Borracho wrote: »

Of those 90% that are junk, I'd say at least 1/3 of them were junk the day they were introduced. Subclassing has rendered even more of the once-strong sets totally irrelevant.

Occasionally, and older set will become viable. Normally this is in PVP because of the constant nerf hammer pounding away. A prime example was Way of Fire, a 10 year old set everyone deconned until the PVP nerfs resurrected it, only to send it back to the scrap heap when the perpetually aggrieved complained about the set showing up in their death recaps

Ugh, I won't touch PvP. I tried Battlegrounds - I get a team just as green as me and it's a 500-0 loss. Go on sell it to me.

It's also super toxic. Teabagging, abuse messages/voice. I'll leave you guys to it. Not interested. Enjoy ****ing each other over, I want not part of it.

I have no desire to grind more gear.

El_Borracho · March 17

rockDokRock wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Of those 90% that are junk, I'd say at least 1/3 of them were junk the day they were introduced. Subclassing has rendered even more of the once-strong sets totally irrelevant.

Occasionally, and older set will become viable. Normally this is in PVP because of the constant nerf hammer pounding away. A prime example was Way of Fire, a 10 year old set everyone deconned until the PVP nerfs resurrected it, only to send it back to the scrap heap when the perpetually aggrieved complained about the set showing up in their death recaps

Ugh, I won't touch PvP. I tried Battlegrounds - I get a team just as green as me and it's a 500-0 loss. Go on sell it to me.

It's also super toxic. Teabagging, abuse messages/voice. I'll leave you guys to it. Not interested. Enjoy ****ing each other over, I want not part of it.

I have no desire to grind more gear.

I prefer PVE, but have come to enjoy PVP over the years. BGs are terrible. Cyrodiil is an acquired taste. Definitely more time and trial and error is needed for both builds and skills as you just can't slap on a beam and melt everything. And yeah, you have to weather the handful of players whose entire identity rides on the outcome of every battle, but there are fewer of them than you might think.

If you do feel like giving it a try where you are not just meat, check out a PVP guild. Most are very helpful in navigating the frustration and fun of Cyrodiil. Not BGs. BGs are trash

Tannus15 · March 17

This is not new, everyone knows most of the sets in the game suck.

I'm honestly sick of posting the same thing over and over pointing out how sets like mothers sorrow are just straight up weaker than crafted sets like highland sentinel with 0 stacks.

I'm also sick of ZoS gaslighting us on this issue.

This is from their head of combat, Brian Wheeler

link

Regarding Gear, that's a very subjective thing regarding what's viable or not as every set has a place in ESO depending if you like trials, pvp, or just roaming around gathering for crafting. Some sets may not be seen as optimal for some content vs. others, but again, that's a subjective viewpoint tied to activity engagement. Are there some sets that are better for PVP vs. Trials? Absolutely. That's not to say we won't look at itemization and how to make it exciting going forward, but going back and simply 'buffing under utilized sets' is simply going to create an arms race or increase vertical power beyond what works within balance limits. Now if we alter those balance limits for content, we could revisit all item sets, or work on other methods of giving people power to compensate for the higher needs to complete that content. For now however, that is not in the plans.

So yes, lots of sets suck. No, ZoS don't want to address the issue and they are straight up lying about it being subjective. Most sets that suck, suck because of math.
it's not subjective, it's just counting.

LittleLionLeone · March 18

Good old spreadsheet balancing

Orbital78 · March 18

Tannus15 wrote: »

This is not new, everyone knows most of the sets in the game suck.

I'm honestly sick of posting the same thing over and over pointing out how sets like mothers sorrow are just straight up weaker than crafted sets like highland sentinel with 0 stacks.

I'm also sick of ZoS gaslighting us on this issue.

This is from their head of combat, Brian Wheeler

link

Regarding Gear, that's a very subjective thing regarding what's viable or not as every set has a place in ESO depending if you like trials, pvp, or just roaming around gathering for crafting. Some sets may not be seen as optimal for some content vs. others, but again, that's a subjective viewpoint tied to activity engagement. Are there some sets that are better for PVP vs. Trials? Absolutely. That's not to say we won't look at itemization and how to make it exciting going forward, but going back and simply 'buffing under utilized sets' is simply going to create an arms race or increase vertical power beyond what works within balance limits. Now if we alter those balance limits for content, we could revisit all item sets, or work on other methods of giving people power to compensate for the higher needs to complete that content. For now however, that is not in the plans.

So yes, lots of sets suck. No, ZoS don't want to address the issue and they are straight up lying about it being subjective. Most sets that suck, suck because of math.
it's not subjective, it's just counting.

A lot of the issue could be addressed by looking at the most favored items in the game. Spell power cure is still one of the most popular support sets. Why? Most likely because it is easy to trigger with overhealing and major courage is available on a handful of new sets but the uptimes of those sets are not great and they are for dps (and kind of a waste because of the overlap and cooldown times).

I'm a person that likes to try different off meta setups, but many are just a effectiveness loss. I agree about the dev response, I remember thinking to myself that they all DO have a place... in the dumpster or sitting unused. These people I assume, can get the data to see how often items are used. They should know better than anyone the successes and failures of their itemization.

rockDokRock · March 18

I just don't get it. What is the point of all these sets then? Everyone wanks on about "niche". Give me an example?

Just feels like filler for me.

LennaTheRussian · March 18

niche almost never works because you're giving up a 5 piece set usually, for something that is mostly a gimmick.

Radiate77 · March 18

The idea that there are progression sets, falls apart when you take into consideration that…

Power ≠ Sourcing.

Every set should be unique, and uniquely good at a specific thing, and they should all follow the same power distribution.

Tannus15 · March 18

frostbite is a great niche set. if you want to do a frost heavy build you get rewarded for it.

velothi is a great niche mythic. if you're using a beam build, then velothi is amazing.
deadly is a niche set. if you're using a channel, like beam, it's fantastic. if you're not, it's bad.

spider cultist isn't a niche set. if you put all the destro staff skills on the bar, spider cultist is still worse than highland sentinel or orders wrath.
the only thing it does is buff your destro staff skills, but it does it less than tide born.

there are a lot of sets, where the numbers just don't add up. it's not situational, it's not subjective, number A is bigger than number B and there is no reason to ever, EVER use number B.

there are many sets which do the same thing. mother's sorrow and leviathan provide you with crit in either light armour or medium armour.
both sets give you less crit than highland sentinel with 0 stacks. both of these sets are number B and should never be used.

There are a lot of sets like this in the game.

You can take any "numbers" set like silks of the sun mother's sorrow and directly compare it to the 3 crafted sets i mentioned and it will tell you if it's garbage or not.

If I thought there was any reason to do this, if i thought ZoS gave the slightest **** about it I would happily get on PTS and just parse some sets. throw some builds together and compare it to tide-born or whatever.
but there isn't. ZoS know. They have to know. It's so obvious, they are smart people, they can see that number A is bigger than number B.

The truth is that it's not a high enough priority for them to address.

There are lots of dead sets, they don't want to spend the time, and more importantly money, to change, fix and test. It would be nice if they could be honest about it and just say that instead of pretending that's not the case.

Tannus15 · March 18

Orbital78 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

This is not new, everyone knows most of the sets in the game suck.

I'm honestly sick of posting the same thing over and over pointing out how sets like mothers sorrow are just straight up weaker than crafted sets like highland sentinel with 0 stacks.

I'm also sick of ZoS gaslighting us on this issue.

This is from their head of combat, Brian Wheeler

link

Regarding Gear, that's a very subjective thing regarding what's viable or not as every set has a place in ESO depending if you like trials, pvp, or just roaming around gathering for crafting. Some sets may not be seen as optimal for some content vs. others, but again, that's a subjective viewpoint tied to activity engagement. Are there some sets that are better for PVP vs. Trials? Absolutely. That's not to say we won't look at itemization and how to make it exciting going forward, but going back and simply 'buffing under utilized sets' is simply going to create an arms race or increase vertical power beyond what works within balance limits. Now if we alter those balance limits for content, we could revisit all item sets, or work on other methods of giving people power to compensate for the higher needs to complete that content. For now however, that is not in the plans.

So yes, lots of sets suck. No, ZoS don't want to address the issue and they are straight up lying about it being subjective. Most sets that suck, suck because of math.
it's not subjective, it's just counting.

A lot of the issue could be addressed by looking at the most favored items in the game. Spell power cure is still one of the most popular support sets. Why? Most likely because it is easy to trigger with overhealing and major courage is available on a handful of new sets but the uptimes of those sets are not great and they are for dps (and kind of a waste because of the overlap and cooldown times).

I'm a person that likes to try different off meta setups, but many are just a effectiveness loss. I agree about the dev response, I remember thinking to myself that they all DO have a place... in the dumpster or sitting unused. These people I assume, can get the data to see how often items are used. They should know better than anyone the successes and failures of their itemization.

what worries me is that people ARE using these dead sets because they don't know any better.

spider cultist:
5 items: Adds 600 Weapon and Spell Damage to your Destruction Staff abilities.

Everything about this implies that if you're a destro staff user that this would be a decent set. I have a lightning staff on the front bar, and an inferno on the back, surely SURELY this is a good set for me to use.

Someone is over here with their double lightning staff, using lightning flood and mages wrath and shocking soul. they are going all in on their storm damage sorc running Netch's Touch because clearly if every skill i use is a shock damage skill the set with 5 items: Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage to your Shock Damage abilities is going to be great. But it's garbage and they are better off with order's wrath.

it's infuriating.

Most people don't crunch the numbers, most people don't parse and compare. They just trust the devs and that if the 5pc bonus appears to match their build, then it should be good.

LittleLionLeone · March 18

So many interesting looking proc sets that are just not worth running outside of a meme build due to low damage, or timers that are so long that by the time it's ready to go again your kids will have grown up and gone to college.

EDIT: And I'm not saying every set needs to boost your dps to meta levels. But if I am doing 20k dps because I wanted to run a cool looking set, I'm a detriment to the team in dungeons and trials. Obviously exaggerating the dps thing but still, it does affect it.

Orbital78 · March 19

Tannus15 wrote: »

what worries me is that people ARE using these dead sets because they don't know any better.

Maybe that explains how I'm tanking/healing hybrid setup and still doing 40-60% of the dps sometimes.

I think it is more of people not knowing how to setup proper builds, or using old outdated information. Sometimes the players are not really even that new, like 1000-1500 cp, I am confused for real at times.

Gabriel_H · March 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

The idea that there are progression sets, falls apart when you take into consideration that…

Power ≠ Sourcing.

Every set should be unique, and uniquely good at a specific thing, and they should all follow the same power distribution.

There are exceptions but overall the pattern holds.

Overland - Easiest sets to get. Little to no group utility. Very niche uses
Crafting - Harder to get due to trait research. Some group utility and more varied stats. Niche uses
Dungeon - Harder to farm due to time and transmutes. Significant group utility. More role specific stats. Many uses
Trial - Hardest to farm. Huge group utility. Specialized stats along with uses in niche fights.

Base Game - Tends to have the weakest sets, along with narrower uses
DLC - Stronger sets that have much wider uses that expands the further down the release timeline you go

Gabriel_H · March 19

Orbital78 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

what worries me is that people ARE using these dead sets because they don't know any better.

Maybe that explains how I'm tanking/healing hybrid setup and still doing 40-60% of the dps sometimes. I think it is more of people not knowing how to setup proper builds, or using old outdated information. Sometimes the players are not really even that new, like 1000-1500 cp, I am confused for real at times.

The dps difference between a base game set and a high-end game set is roughly an extra 10%. I.e. if they were doing 20k in the base game set, they's be doing 22k in the high-end.

Similarly with CP points, having 1,800 vs 0 is only around another 25% boost. So your 22k now becomes 28k.

All other boosts to dps comes from buffs, tank sets, healer sets, and the players skill.

twisttop138 · March 19

You can't be serious. We were just told in the AMA that every set is useful and has a place.

tomofhyrule · March 19

I’m definitely one of those people who doesn’t mind a bunch of sets around, especially since stickerbook is a thing. After all, with achievements being account-wide, filling stickerbook is literally the only reason to run some content once you get the trifecta anymore.

They did say that “every set has its place” in the AMA, and I don’t mind if for some of them, that place is the trash can. I definitely also enjoy some of those trash sets for my ‘for fun’ overland builds sometimes.

I do think the team should look at some of those trash sets and bring them up though. Maybe if they had a forum thread or reddit post where people could talk about sets that need love and then they adjust a handful of those each patch. It doesn’t make sense that some sets are literally outclassed by others (like how Highland without stacks gives better crit chance than sets that are all in on crit).

xencthlu · March 19

The thing I'm curious about is, how much development time is spent on sets that people won't and shouldn't use? Each set that the community deems not worth the time it takes to grind it is time spent paying developers for no benefit for the players and no benefit for the game. I wonder what better ways that dev time could be spent if Zenimax decided the strategic move was to release fewer sets overall and spent more time making sure they actually advanced some aspect of gameplay. Do dungeons always need at least three armour sets? Might one suffice? Do dungeon armour sets always need to be 5-piece set bonus affairs, or might we see 3-piece sets in dungeons? The dungeon status quo deserves to be shaken up as much as any other part of the game, and Zenimax has claimed part of their goal for the new development model is just that. I wonder what other rewards could motivate dungeon-focused players to grind dungeons. I feel like they've experimented with the question to some extent with the public dungeon collectibles DLCs and expansions, but I also feel like those examples aren't entirely successful. That would be a separate post with a separate topic, though.

YandereGirlfriend · March 19

I, for one, am smashing the 'Doubt' button that the devs really do have an omniscient, Palantir-like gaze into what sets that folk are and are not wearing. Or, perhaps more to the point, that this information is not currently presented in an easily accessible view to the relevant developers.

xencthlu wrote: »

The thing I'm curious about is, how much development time is spent on sets that people won't and shouldn't use? Each set that the community deems not worth the time it takes to grind it is time spent paying developers for no benefit for the players and no benefit for the game. I wonder what better ways that dev time could be spent if Zenimax decided the strategic move was to release fewer sets overall and spent more time making sure they actually advanced some aspect of gameplay. Do dungeons always need at least three armour sets? Might one suffice? Do dungeon armour sets always need to be 5-piece set bonus affairs, or might we see 3-piece sets in dungeons? The dungeon status quo deserves to be shaken up as much as any other part of the game, and Zenimax has claimed part of their goal for the new development model is just that. I wonder what other rewards could motivate dungeon-focused players to grind dungeons. I feel like they've experimented with the question to some extent with the public dungeon collectibles DLCs and expansions, but I also feel like those examples aren't entirely successful. That would be a separate post with a separate topic, though.

The tragic part is that most of the dead sets can be solved with 10-second magic number tweaks. Reduce a cooldown, increase a base tooltip, change the scaling coefficient, toggle a 2-4 piece bonus, etc. Simplicity itself.

Repairing most of the dead sets would take barely any effort for the devs. Some are perhaps beyond repair and would require new logic for a 5-piece bonus but most sets are fine in concept, just underpowered, even in the niche that they are supposedly trying to fill.

Tannus15 · March 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

The idea that there are progression sets, falls apart when you take into consideration that…

Power ≠ Sourcing.

Every set should be unique, and uniquely good at a specific thing, and they should all follow the same power distribution.

There are exceptions but overall the pattern holds.

Overland - Easiest sets to get. Little to no group utility. Very niche uses
Crafting - Harder to get due to trait research. Some group utility and more varied stats. Niche uses
Dungeon - Harder to farm due to time and transmutes. Significant group utility. More role specific stats. Many uses
Trial - Hardest to farm. Huge group utility. Specialized stats along with uses in niche fights.

Base Game - Tends to have the weakest sets, along with narrower uses
DLC - Stronger sets that have much wider uses that expands the further down the release timeline you go

What the hell are you talking about?

Mother's Sorrow - Overland
2 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
3 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
4 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
5 items: Adds 1528 Critical Chance

Leviathan - Dungeon
2 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
4 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
5 items: Adds 1528 Critical Chance

Silks of the sun - Overland
2 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 items: Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage to your Flame Damage abilities.

Netch's Touch - Dungeon
2 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 items: Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage to your Shock Damage abilities.

These are the most obvious examples and the easiest ones to show how off the mark you are, but if you actually start looking at the terrible sets that no one uses you'll realise that most dungeon sets are just as bad as overland sets.

Of Briarheart, Burning spell weave and Scathing mage Briarheart is probably the best option.

Here is a fun one to compare

Venomous Smite - Overland
2 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
4 items: Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 items: Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter's Venom on your enemy for 10 seconds, dealing 714 Poison damage to your target and enemies within 6 meters of them every 2 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds and scales off the higher of your Weapon and Spell Damage.

Poisonous Serpent - Trial
2 items: Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
3 items: Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 657 Critical Chance
5 items: When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack against an enemy who has a Poison Damage ability on them, you deal an additional 48 Poison damage and apply the Poisoned status effect to the enemy. This effect can occur once every 2 seconds and scales off the higher of your Weapon and Spell Damage.

Can you guess which of these 2 sets is better? I'll give you a hint, it's not the trial set. And Serpent was RECENTLY reworked. They actually spent time and effort on that one to make it one of the weakest sets in the game.