Still no viable counter to Ball Groups

xFocused · March 19

As I’m writing this post, I logged into GH tonight during the start of prime time to find my alliance gated with no scrolls and 2 keeps, one of those keeps being heavily occupied by not one but two fully comped out ball groups, one of which also currently has the emp in their group, farming the keep with absolutely 0 resistance. There was at one time 20/20 siege listed on these groups, they just healed and shielded through it as if it was nothing. Cold fires, meat bags, you name it and it was at one point hitting them.

So what exactly is the counter anymore? No seriously, what’s the solution to fighting these groups? Before someone chimes in with “just ignore them”, how? How can you ignore them when they are holding emp, six scrolls and actively keeping you gated? Siege does nothing, ZOS has literally nerfed any viable set that was originally created as a counter to these groups, negates work occasionally but your average PUG group and casual solos aren’t even remotely close to being comped out as these groups, not to mention running a negate build.

This has been a topic for years on these forums and we never get kind of solution other than “just gotta ignore them….just gotta make your own comped group…” and even when ZOS makes the smallest noise of possibly nerfing heals, these same ball groups swarm to the the forums and cry how unfair that is and then we hear nothing further on the topic.

The fact that one individual in these groups can have almost 12 vigors on top of shields and other various buffs is insane. Ball groups have been a thing in this game for years but at least they were killable once ago in this game. Now, nothing seems to touch them. All you can do is hope they make a minor mistake and lose a healer or something and the rest crumble 🤷🏼‍♂️

YandereGirlfriend · March 19

xFocused wrote: »

As I’m writing this post, I logged into GH tonight during the start of prime time to find my alliance gated with no scrolls and 2 keeps, one of those keeps being heavily occupied by not one but two fully comped out ball groups, one of which also currently has the emp in their group, farming the keep with absolutely 0 resistance. There was at one time 20/20 siege listed on these groups, they just healed and shielded through it as if it was nothing. Cold fires, meat bags, you name it and it was at one point hitting them.

So what exactly is the counter anymore? No seriously, what’s the solution to fighting these groups? Before someone chimes in with “just ignore them”, how? How can you ignore them when they are holding emp, six scrolls and actively keeping you gated? Siege does nothing, ZOS has literally nerfed any viable set that was originally created as a counter to these groups, negates work occasionally but your average PUG group and casual solos aren’t even remotely close to being comped out as these groups, not to mention running a negate build.

This has been a topic for years on these forums and we never get kind of solution other than “just gotta ignore them….just gotta make your own comped group…” and even when ZOS makes the smallest noise of possibly nerfing heals, these same ball groups swarm to the the forums and cry how unfair that is and then we hear nothing further on the topic.

The fact that one individual in these groups can have almost 12 vigors on top of shields and other various buffs is insane. Ball groups have been a thing in this game for years but at least they were killable once ago in this game. Now, nothing seems to touch them. All you can do is hope they make a minor mistake and lose a healer or something and the rest crumble 🤷🏼‍♂️

Ask for advice from someone on PC-NA AD.

Their zone zerg and zerg guilds are by far the most effective ballgroup fighters on the server. Of course, they do not win every fight but I have seen them eat-up every active ballgroup, including my own.

The TLDR is tank-up, run Negate, and join a guild so that you can coordinate with others.

Tigor · March 19

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

As I’m writing this post, I logged into GH tonight during the start of prime time to find my alliance gated with no scrolls and 2 keeps, one of those keeps being heavily occupied by not one but two fully comped out ball groups, one of which also currently has the emp in their group, farming the keep with absolutely 0 resistance. There was at one time 20/20 siege listed on these groups, they just healed and shielded through it as if it was nothing. Cold fires, meat bags, you name it and it was at one point hitting them.

So what exactly is the counter anymore? No seriously, what’s the solution to fighting these groups? Before someone chimes in with “just ignore them”, how? How can you ignore them when they are holding emp, six scrolls and actively keeping you gated? Siege does nothing, ZOS has literally nerfed any viable set that was originally created as a counter to these groups, negates work occasionally but your average PUG group and casual solos aren’t even remotely close to being comped out as these groups, not to mention running a negate build.

This has been a topic for years on these forums and we never get kind of solution other than “just gotta ignore them….just gotta make your own comped group…” and even when ZOS makes the smallest noise of possibly nerfing heals, these same ball groups swarm to the the forums and cry how unfair that is and then we hear nothing further on the topic.

The fact that one individual in these groups can have almost 12 vigors on top of shields and other various buffs is insane. Ball groups have been a thing in this game for years but at least they were killable once ago in this game. Now, nothing seems to touch them. All you can do is hope they make a minor mistake and lose a healer or something and the rest crumble 🤷🏼‍♂️

Ask for advice from someone on PC-NA AD.

Their zone zerg and zerg guilds are by far the most effective ballgroup fighters on the server. Of course, they do not win every fight but I have seen them eat-up every active ballgroup, including my own.

The TLDR is tank-up, run Negate, and join a guild so that you can coordinate with others.

I have never seen someone starting a post that “zergs” can’t be countered. As I mentioned years ago the ballgroups are a major cause of zergs, while they nested themself in the community with victim blaming, not realizing that their playstyle is actually not wanted, Zos should not quit implementing changes that will help everyone with good entertainment in a game that is playable. Cause and effect. Looking forward to next vengeance actions and a permanent good quality.

xFocused · March 19

Tigor wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

As I’m writing this post, I logged into GH tonight during the start of prime time to find my alliance gated with no scrolls and 2 keeps, one of those keeps being heavily occupied by not one but two fully comped out ball groups, one of which also currently has the emp in their group, farming the keep with absolutely 0 resistance. There was at one time 20/20 siege listed on these groups, they just healed and shielded through it as if it was nothing. Cold fires, meat bags, you name it and it was at one point hitting them.

So what exactly is the counter anymore? No seriously, what’s the solution to fighting these groups? Before someone chimes in with “just ignore them”, how? How can you ignore them when they are holding emp, six scrolls and actively keeping you gated? Siege does nothing, ZOS has literally nerfed any viable set that was originally created as a counter to these groups, negates work occasionally but your average PUG group and casual solos aren’t even remotely close to being comped out as these groups, not to mention running a negate build.

This has been a topic for years on these forums and we never get kind of solution other than “just gotta ignore them….just gotta make your own comped group…” and even when ZOS makes the smallest noise of possibly nerfing heals, these same ball groups swarm to the the forums and cry how unfair that is and then we hear nothing further on the topic.

The fact that one individual in these groups can have almost 12 vigors on top of shields and other various buffs is insane. Ball groups have been a thing in this game for years but at least they were killable once ago in this game. Now, nothing seems to touch them. All you can do is hope they make a minor mistake and lose a healer or something and the rest crumble 🤷🏼‍♂️

Ask for advice from someone on PC-NA AD.

Their zone zerg and zerg guilds are by far the most effective ballgroup fighters on the server. Of course, they do not win every fight but I have seen them eat-up every active ballgroup, including my own.

The TLDR is tank-up, run Negate, and join a guild so that you can coordinate with others.

I have never seen someone starting a post that “zergs” can’t be countered. As I mentioned years ago the ballgroups are a major cause of zergs, while they nested themself in the community with victim blaming, not realizing that their playstyle is actually not wanted, Zos should not quit implementing changes that will help everyone with good entertainment in a game that is playable. Cause and effect. Looking forward to next vengeance actions and a permanent good quality.

Have to agree. Vengeance wasn’t perfect but it sure was nice to have large scale battles again without a group of 12 plus rolling up and putting an end to all of it

Triipzzz · March 19

Since you need a single huge damage hit to break through 35k health and 10k shields the only real solution is buffing proxy det to 8-10k base like it used to be.

empbethy · March 23

core combat skills and pressure.

CameraBeardThePirate · March 23

Hmm, you mean that complaining that the change to healing was too harsh made the change not impactful enough to do anything? Whoda thunk...

pinkpom · March 25

This skill creates good pressure.

Tigor · March 25

pinkpom wrote: »

This skill creates good pressure.

I would not use that as the 2 sec cast time is useless against ballgroups. The lag they generate is causing a delay.

xylena · March 25

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The TLDR is tank-up, run Negate, and join a guild so that you can coordinate with others.

You forgot the only part that really matters: massively outnumber them. Even structured zerg guilds with a comped core need 30+ to deal with a ball of 12.

Without the strict coordination that only another ball group can execute, you're stuck waiting until you randomly get lucky lining up enough Negates + sieges + damage ults.

Devs need to figure out the ideal value for X in 12vX and actually design for that. The current demand for 30+ structured pugs or 60+ randoms has failed miserably.

Kartalin · March 25

Tigor wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

As I’m writing this post, I logged into GH tonight during the start of prime time to find my alliance gated with no scrolls and 2 keeps, one of those keeps being heavily occupied by not one but two fully comped out ball groups, one of which also currently has the emp in their group, farming the keep with absolutely 0 resistance. There was at one time 20/20 siege listed on these groups, they just healed and shielded through it as if it was nothing. Cold fires, meat bags, you name it and it was at one point hitting them.

So what exactly is the counter anymore? No seriously, what’s the solution to fighting these groups? Before someone chimes in with “just ignore them”, how? How can you ignore them when they are holding emp, six scrolls and actively keeping you gated? Siege does nothing, ZOS has literally nerfed any viable set that was originally created as a counter to these groups, negates work occasionally but your average PUG group and casual solos aren’t even remotely close to being comped out as these groups, not to mention running a negate build.

This has been a topic for years on these forums and we never get kind of solution other than “just gotta ignore them….just gotta make your own comped group…” and even when ZOS makes the smallest noise of possibly nerfing heals, these same ball groups swarm to the the forums and cry how unfair that is and then we hear nothing further on the topic.

The fact that one individual in these groups can have almost 12 vigors on top of shields and other various buffs is insane. Ball groups have been a thing in this game for years but at least they were killable once ago in this game. Now, nothing seems to touch them. All you can do is hope they make a minor mistake and lose a healer or something and the rest crumble 🤷🏼‍♂️

Ask for advice from someone on PC-NA AD.

Their zone zerg and zerg guilds are by far the most effective ballgroup fighters on the server. Of course, they do not win every fight but I have seen them eat-up every active ballgroup, including my own.

The TLDR is tank-up, run Negate, and join a guild so that you can coordinate with others.

I have never seen someone starting a post that “zergs” can’t be countered. As I mentioned years ago the ballgroups are a major cause of zergs, while they nested themself in the community with victim blaming, not realizing that their playstyle is actually not wanted, Zos should not quit implementing changes that will help everyone with good entertainment in a game that is playable. Cause and effect. Looking forward to next vengeance actions and a permanent good quality.

If you're saying that players would stop zerging if there were not any ballgroups, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

xFocused · March 25

Kartalin wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

As I’m writing this post, I logged into GH tonight during the start of prime time to find my alliance gated with no scrolls and 2 keeps, one of those keeps being heavily occupied by not one but two fully comped out ball groups, one of which also currently has the emp in their group, farming the keep with absolutely 0 resistance. There was at one time 20/20 siege listed on these groups, they just healed and shielded through it as if it was nothing. Cold fires, meat bags, you name it and it was at one point hitting them.

So what exactly is the counter anymore? No seriously, what’s the solution to fighting these groups? Before someone chimes in with “just ignore them”, how? How can you ignore them when they are holding emp, six scrolls and actively keeping you gated? Siege does nothing, ZOS has literally nerfed any viable set that was originally created as a counter to these groups, negates work occasionally but your average PUG group and casual solos aren’t even remotely close to being comped out as these groups, not to mention running a negate build.

This has been a topic for years on these forums and we never get kind of solution other than “just gotta ignore them….just gotta make your own comped group…” and even when ZOS makes the smallest noise of possibly nerfing heals, these same ball groups swarm to the the forums and cry how unfair that is and then we hear nothing further on the topic.

The fact that one individual in these groups can have almost 12 vigors on top of shields and other various buffs is insane. Ball groups have been a thing in this game for years but at least they were killable once ago in this game. Now, nothing seems to touch them. All you can do is hope they make a minor mistake and lose a healer or something and the rest crumble 🤷🏼‍♂️

Ask for advice from someone on PC-NA AD.

Their zone zerg and zerg guilds are by far the most effective ballgroup fighters on the server. Of course, they do not win every fight but I have seen them eat-up every active ballgroup, including my own.

The TLDR is tank-up, run Negate, and join a guild so that you can coordinate with others.

I have never seen someone starting a post that “zergs” can’t be countered. As I mentioned years ago the ballgroups are a major cause of zergs, while they nested themself in the community with victim blaming, not realizing that their playstyle is actually not wanted, Zos should not quit implementing changes that will help everyone with good entertainment in a game that is playable. Cause and effect. Looking forward to next vengeance actions and a permanent good quality.

If you're saying that players would stop zerging if there were not any ballgroups, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Well said. I hopped on last night just to check out GH during prime time and surprisingly, none of the known ball groups were anywhere to be seen. You know what happened? There was a massive 3-way fight at Ash that lasted over an hour with DC gaining a decent 42k+ defense tick. Was it zergy? Absolutely, but oh my God was it fun. There wasn't even any lag. It felt like how GH should be played, just massive, large scale warfare without a group of 12 plus running in to lag out the server, wipe everyone and kill the fun. Players are always going to zerg, but it's actually insane how much fun the server feels when there's no ball groups around...

xylena · March 25

Kartalin wrote: »

If you're saying that players would stop zerging if there were not any ballgroups

No. They wouldn't. They shouldn't.

END ZERG SHAMING

xFocused · March 25

xylena wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

If you're saying that players would stop zerging if there were not any ballgroups

No. They wouldn't. They shouldn't.

END ZERG SHAMING

This. Take away the zergs and you take away pretty much the large scale fights. I'm all for duels and 1vX's but I'm also for those huge fights at keeps as well

cuddles_with_wroble · March 26

xylena wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

If you're saying that players would stop zerging if there were not any ballgroups

No. They wouldn't. They shouldn't.

END ZERG SHAMING

Zerg shamings original meaning has been lost to the new players. It used to be a way to shame someone who’s clearly good enough to 1vx and should know better than to rush down solo or small group players.

There’s nothing wrong with being a zergljng until your skill level reaches a certain point and then your kicked out of the club

xylena · March 26

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

There’s nothing wrong with being a zergljng until your skill level reaches a certain point and then your kicked out of the club

They still zerg when they think they won't catch blowback for it, or when they dislike someone enough, have you never the pleasure of being sweated down by 4 guys alone in a distant field then spammed with "zergling trash" type hate tells?

The game will be way less toxic when there's no shame for "zerging" objectives. That is explicitly how the game is designed. If your enemy brings numbers, you probably should too (which is why the whole model falls apart if a ball group sucks away 60 guys).

QB1 · March 27

Remove snow treaders from PvP (or make them not work if in a group). That’s all the counter we need. Fighting ball groups without treaders is actually manageable

xFocused · March 27

QB1 wrote: »

Remove snow treaders from PvP (or make them not work if in a group). That’s all the counter we need. Fighting ball groups without treaders is actually manageable

I agree. The way it stands now, these groups have Snow Treaders and a dedicated group member spamming rapids on them

Major_Mangle · March 27

QB1 wrote: »

Remove snow treaders from PvP (or make them not work if in a group). That’s all the counter we need. Fighting ball groups without treaders is actually manageable

Most groups these days (depending on group size) doesn´t use snowthreaders (still think it needs balance adjustments to not give perma immunity to snare/roots), but the banner giving the same snare/root immunity. Perma root/snare immunity should never be a thing for balance reasons. Having temporary windows with immunity is fine, but with how miniscule of a trade-off it is to achieve permanent snare-/root immunity for as a group, there needs to be changes to this alongside with changes to cross- healing/shielding.

Also bring back old azureblight so we can have proper counterplay to large stacks. Or allow it to scale in PvP again. Last and only time ballgroups actually had a proper challenge (and no it wasn´t "bugged" the way people say it was and ignored evasion, it was only buffed by single target CP, but was still mitigated by evasion/AoE mitigation sources).

Stridig · March 27

QB1 wrote: »

Remove snow treaders from PvP (or make them not work if in a group). That’s all the counter we need. Fighting ball groups without treaders is actually manageable

Ball groups haven't used snow treaders in quite some time.

QB1 · March 28

Stridig wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Remove snow treaders from PvP (or make them not work if in a group). That’s all the counter we need. Fighting ball groups without treaders is actually manageable

Ball groups haven't used snow treaders in quite some time.

Snow treaders/banner whatever they use for permanent root immunity. Get it out of here

YandereGirlfriend · March 28

xFocused wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

If you're saying that players would stop zerging if there were not any ballgroups

No. They wouldn't. They shouldn't.

END ZERG SHAMING

This. Take away the zergs and you take away pretty much the large scale fights. I'm all for duels and 1vX's but I'm also for those huge fights at keeps as well

Well, there's zerging and then there's "zerging". It depends upon which direction that you are punching as a group: up or down.

If the zerg is XvX against an enemy force with roughly equal numbers then I agree that there's often good fun to be had in that.

But if it's Xv1 against smaller groups of pugs where you are just running them over due to superior numbers then that is quite lame.

QB1 wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Remove snow treaders from PvP (or make them not work if in a group). That’s all the counter we need. Fighting ball groups without treaders is actually manageable

Ball groups haven't used snow treaders in quite some time.

Snow treaders/banner whatever they use for permanent root immunity. Get it out of here

You know that ballgroups existed before Mythics, right?

xylena · 5:49PM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

But if it's Xv1 against smaller groups of pugs where you are just running them over due to superior numbers then that is quite lame.

Without Xv1, there can be no 1vX.

END ZERG SHAMING

Also get rid of perma immunity (Treaders, Banner, whatever) because turning OFF entire game mechanics for what limited counterplay is available is unfun and objectively bad game design. Perma immunity is no less toxic when used by smallscales, structured zergs, or troll tanks.