Probably the most unfun patch for PvP if you’re not playing DK

Urzigurumash · March 16

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

6 months for Warden, 9 months for Sorcerer.

Please stop referring to that class as 'Warden', after the refresh it will be known as the Ice Wizard.

The Knight Class is also now a Fire Mage, but that really happened like 5 years ago when their weapons became magical whips.

Jsmalls · March 16

xylena wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

My advice is to either suck it up and play the tank sorc blade or reroll like everyone else

My StamSorc friend running Assassination + Storm Calling + Dark Magic had this to say:

I'll also mention again that replacing Storm Calling with Restoring Light (mitigation and HOTs not purge spam) can be an effective adaptation for subclass builds, iterating on the previous dueling meta. Despite being a DK main I have no interest in this patch, it's the same play patterns as animal assassins, but I'm looking forward to the Sorc rework and building around Implosion.

I havent played this game in over a year buuut, depending on the interaction of implosion and Storm Cursed I would start there.

For jokes I ran a build with storm cursed, the set that doubles traits and used charged (I can't think of the name), and Two handed maelstrom back bar (I think this one, it's the one that adds damage to abilities), combined with Scribing AoE lightning (with class mastery) so each cast does 2x instances of lightning (plus the chances at status proc). With implosion applying lightning every 0.3 seconds storm cursed would be going off like crazy (and storm cursed can proc status effect).

This would likely actually work pretty well. Guess it all depends if the gcd for implosion is target based or a self gcd.

L_Nici · March 16

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

El_Borracho · March 16

Orbital78 wrote: »

What does heavy attack do again? Joking aside, ya'll act like you haven't rode this rollercoaster before. Maybe you're new around here, welcome to ESO.

Perfectly stated. I think it was a little over 2 years ago when they last buffed DK in PVP and people said the same thing.

The upside? Its a refreshing change from the unabated nerf trend

hoangdz · March 16

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

Lord_Hev · March 16

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

How literally are we taking this? Because nothing comes even remotely close to what a cp 2000++ Nightblade could do during 1.6 era. When you show me a DK that can front bar gank, then swap to back bar 1vx duel-brawler, let me know lol.

Come to think of it, with the power-creep inflation when all class refreshes are finished, maybe we going full circle here.

s3dulo · March 17

Other classes and subclasses can absolutely compete if you're actually good at PVP and know how to build. Those dumpy builds most people run that didn't work well outside of zergs are just even more ineffective now. Instead of complaining about a new challenge, get better, adjust. Learn how to build for PVP. The first time someone nuked me with Corrosive and consecutive 10k whips was jarring but I adjusted.

Most of all, be patient, the other classes are getting overhauled so the DK meta will be short-lived. Class passives will power pure classes in the short term.

I was skeptical but I actually think the devs nailed the DK power level. It's strong but it's not OP.

Personofsecrets · March 17

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

How literally are we taking this? Because nothing comes even remotely close to what a cp 2000++ Nightblade could do during 1.6 era. When you show me a DK that can front bar gank, then swap to back bar 1vx duel-brawler, let me know lol.

Come to think of it, with the power-creep inflation when all class refreshes are finished, maybe we going full circle here.

The nightblade class mastery passives will be grossly strong

hoangdz · March 17

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

How literally are we taking this? Because nothing comes even remotely close to what a cp 2000++ Nightblade could do during 1.6 era. When you show me a DK that can front bar gank, then swap to back bar 1vx duel-brawler, let me know lol.

Come to think of it, with the power-creep inflation when all class refreshes are finished, maybe we going full circle here.

Only gank? Bruh, a pure DK can currently BOMB and 1vX. Your NB example means nothing.

React’s clip:

https://youtu.be/LrHAqxmLR98?si=hMg6AsAlh1c6K6hj

Pelican’s clip:

https://youtu.be/n-Qwd3uYrVY?si=bsH3VtO5VMvNXeZZ

Tell me if your NB can do the same

Oblivion_Protocol · March 17

These threads make me laugh so much. ESO players screamed and cried about the subclassing meta and demanded that ZOS buff pure classes. So, ZOS buffed a pure class, and suddenly everyone wants it nerfed into the dirt. And then…what? We go back to Assassination/Animal Conpanions for the entire two years it would take the devs to complete the class reworks so they can release them all at once?

No. Hell no.

Just sit back, endure the whips, and wait your favorite class’ turn until the game is finally closer to being balanced. It didn’t get broken in a day, it’s not getting fixed in a day.

Orbital78 · March 17

The old meta was dogwater already imo. Soooo many people were running the same charm, streak, builds in mym.

karthrag_inak · March 17

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Just sit back, endure the whips, and wait your favorite class’ turn until the game is finally closer to being balanced.

lol.

Lord_Hev · March 17

.

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

How literally are we taking this? Because nothing comes even remotely close to what a cp 2000++ Nightblade could do during 1.6 era. When you show me a DK that can front bar gank, then swap to back bar 1vx duel-brawler, let me know lol.

Come to think of it, with the power-creep inflation when all class refreshes are finished, maybe we going full circle here.

Only gank? Bruh, a pure DK can currently BOMB and 1vX. Your NB example means nothing.

React’s clip:

https://youtu.be/LrHAqxmLR98?si=hMg6AsAlh1c6K6hj

Pelican’s clip:

https://youtu.be/n-Qwd3uYrVY?si=bsH3VtO5VMvNXeZZ

Tell me if your NB can do the same

The cp 2000 NB I knew from 1.6: His front bar was bow ganker that was capable of 30k bursts from ranged. And if anyone got close to him and broke his stealth, his back bar(another offense bar) turned him into a brawler duelist. He would just pressure people down while perma blocking and was able to kill one-by-one. And if there were too many that he couldn't face-tank, he could just go back to his bow gank bar and start pulling off kite/cloak maneuvers. All of this made possible due to how powerful uncapped CP was. He was essentially a mini-emperor. All stats, no proc sets.

This is a silly thing to argue though as we're talking about wildy different eras. But I just found this claim of "strongest in history" to be funny. This also doesn't compare to old magdk that could talons > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm *killing blows with alliance war passives* > Standard of might > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm. Do a few flame lashes here and there just because. Maybe try to stack another standard of might in your previous standard of might that hasn't expired yet even though you managed to pull off another two batswarms.

hoangdz · March 17

Lord_Hev wrote: »

.

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

How literally are we taking this? Because nothing comes even remotely close to what a cp 2000++ Nightblade could do during 1.6 era. When you show me a DK that can front bar gank, then swap to back bar 1vx duel-brawler, let me know lol.

Come to think of it, with the power-creep inflation when all class refreshes are finished, maybe we going full circle here.

Only gank? Bruh, a pure DK can currently BOMB and 1vX. Your NB example means nothing.

React’s clip:

https://youtu.be/LrHAqxmLR98?si=hMg6AsAlh1c6K6hj

Pelican’s clip:

https://youtu.be/n-Qwd3uYrVY?si=bsH3VtO5VMvNXeZZ

Tell me if your NB can do the same

The cp 2000 NB I knew from 1.6: His front bar was bow ganker that was capable of 30k bursts from ranged. And if anyone got close to him and broke his stealth, his back bar(another offense bar) turned him into a brawler duelist. He would just pressure people down while perma blocking and was able to kill one-by-one. And if there were too many that he couldn't face-tank, he could just go back to his bow gank bar and start pulling off kite/cloak maneuvers. All of this made possible due to how powerful uncapped CP was. He was essentially a mini-emperor. All stats, no proc sets.

This is a silly thing to argue though as we're talking about wildy different eras. But I just found this claim of "strongest in history" to be funny. This also doesn't compare to old magdk that could talons > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm *killing blows with alliance war passives* > Standard of might > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm. Do a few flame lashes here and there just because. Maybe try to stack another standard of might in your previous standard of might that hasn't expired yet even though you managed to pull off another two batswarms.

Even if you gave your NB example today’s power crept stats, current pure DK would still nuke him. In fact, it would nuke 5 of him at the same time.

React is known among the PvP community as one of the best PvPers across all platforms, and he’s also my guildie, which means he has expressed a lot more of his opinion on discord than on here. You can check his channel and see just how many classes and builds he has used to 1vX over the years. If he thinks the current DK is the strongest build the game has ever seen, then I’m going to trust that opinion.

Lord_Hev · March 17

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

.

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

How literally are we taking this? Because nothing comes even remotely close to what a cp 2000++ Nightblade could do during 1.6 era. When you show me a DK that can front bar gank, then swap to back bar 1vx duel-brawler, let me know lol.

Come to think of it, with the power-creep inflation when all class refreshes are finished, maybe we going full circle here.

Only gank? Bruh, a pure DK can currently BOMB and 1vX. Your NB example means nothing.

React’s clip:

https://youtu.be/LrHAqxmLR98?si=hMg6AsAlh1c6K6hj

Pelican’s clip:

https://youtu.be/n-Qwd3uYrVY?si=bsH3VtO5VMvNXeZZ

Tell me if your NB can do the same

The cp 2000 NB I knew from 1.6: His front bar was bow ganker that was capable of 30k bursts from ranged. And if anyone got close to him and broke his stealth, his back bar(another offense bar) turned him into a brawler duelist. He would just pressure people down while perma blocking and was able to kill one-by-one. And if there were too many that he couldn't face-tank, he could just go back to his bow gank bar and start pulling off kite/cloak maneuvers. All of this made possible due to how powerful uncapped CP was. He was essentially a mini-emperor. All stats, no proc sets.

This is a silly thing to argue though as we're talking about wildy different eras. But I just found this claim of "strongest in history" to be funny. This also doesn't compare to old magdk that could talons > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm *killing blows with alliance war passives* > Standard of might > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm. Do a few flame lashes here and there just because. Maybe try to stack another standard of might in your previous standard of might that hasn't expired yet even though you managed to pull off another two batswarms.

Even if you gave your NB example today’s power crept stats, current pure DK would still nuke him. In fact, it would nuke 5 of him at the same time.

React is known among the PvP community as one of the best PvPers across all platforms, and he’s also my guildie, which means he has expressed a lot more of his opinion on discord than on here. You can check his channel and see just how many classes and builds he has used to 1vX over the years. If he thinks the current DK is the strongest build the game has ever seen, then I’m going to trust that opinion.

It's an interesting thought experiment. Instead of wasting time on vengeance, zos should make a campaign that unnerfs all the "overpowered" stuff from the past.

If this is going to be the gold standard of the class refreshes, then you won't have to wait long till the NB refresh for the next ridiculous NB to come around... Oh wait, no it won't be the same levels of insane, because it's just going to be more VD bombing clips as that is the only way to get kills to that degree easily. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Can literally find clips of all the generic acuity wardens, and acuity subclassed abominations all doing similar pre-edited VD bombing with epic music and looking all overpowered. The only thing that is relevant in this discussion is the stat crunch on the skills. And DK definitely has the full package. The pure class toolkit comes with the offense of a triple offense subclass build, but with the defensive passives to backbone it. This allows pureclass DK to shakeup the stale subclass meta. An overwhelmingly positive change. But I do have concern of what this will mean for the overall TTK when every class is like this. Do we all actually enjoy the "YO-YOing" of health bars?

This is becoming very reminiscent of the 1.6 era of high cp players. Now is as good a time as any for Zos to reconsider some form of soft-cap system.

Urzigurumash · March 17

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

.

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

How literally are we taking this? Because nothing comes even remotely close to what a cp 2000++ Nightblade could do during 1.6 era. When you show me a DK that can front bar gank, then swap to back bar 1vx duel-brawler, let me know lol.

Come to think of it, with the power-creep inflation when all class refreshes are finished, maybe we going full circle here.

Only gank? Bruh, a pure DK can currently BOMB and 1vX. Your NB example means nothing.

React’s clip:

https://youtu.be/LrHAqxmLR98?si=hMg6AsAlh1c6K6hj

Pelican’s clip:

https://youtu.be/n-Qwd3uYrVY?si=bsH3VtO5VMvNXeZZ

Tell me if your NB can do the same

The cp 2000 NB I knew from 1.6: His front bar was bow ganker that was capable of 30k bursts from ranged. And if anyone got close to him and broke his stealth, his back bar(another offense bar) turned him into a brawler duelist. He would just pressure people down while perma blocking and was able to kill one-by-one. And if there were too many that he couldn't face-tank, he could just go back to his bow gank bar and start pulling off kite/cloak maneuvers. All of this made possible due to how powerful uncapped CP was. He was essentially a mini-emperor. All stats, no proc sets.

This is a silly thing to argue though as we're talking about wildy different eras. But I just found this claim of "strongest in history" to be funny. This also doesn't compare to old magdk that could talons > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm *killing blows with alliance war passives* > Standard of might > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm. Do a few flame lashes here and there just because. Maybe try to stack another standard of might in your previous standard of might that hasn't expired yet even though you managed to pull off another two batswarms.

Even if you gave your NB example today’s power crept stats, current pure DK would still nuke him. In fact, it would nuke 5 of him at the same time.

React is known among the PvP community as one of the best PvPers across all platforms, and he’s also my guildie, which means he has expressed a lot more of his opinion on discord than on here. You can check his channel and see just how many classes and builds he has used to 1vX over the years. If he thinks the current DK is the strongest build the game has ever seen, then I’m going to trust that opinion.

Ok but the class is only one factor in the final output, there are others. If one other variable is wildly out of tune then it can make the class look MUCH stronger than it is when that variable is removed. It can be true that the class is the strongest ever and doesn't need a nerf given it's the first overhauled. I suspect your real complaint lies here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664954/vicious-death-hitting-for-60k

The set is useless in duels and 4v4s, there's PVP besides Champion Cyro.

Urzigurumash · March 17

A clip of the Lebomb James of ESO pwning pugs just doesn't cut it in this court, sorry. Objection, irrelevant

hoangdz · March 17

Urzigurumash wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

.

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh nice, the next discussion of the same persons complaining about DKs. This time Cyrodiil not duelling or we still going on on duelling, where you are so good, which means, you are better at the game than anyone else too?

I don't need to be better at the game than anyone else. I just need to be good enough to see why pure DK is currently the best class in the game.

There is also a difference between disagreeing with me because you want all class reworks to roll out before making adjustments, and disagreeing because you think DK is not stronger than subclass. React Faster claimed that pure DK is currently the strongest spec in the history of ESO, and yet he disagrees with me on nerfing DK because he thinks it's a necessary evil and requires patience until all class reworks are completed, not because it's weaker. This I can agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy the current patch.

Meanwhile, you have openly stated that Molten Whip is not as good as Spectral Bow. This is clearly not the case from my experience in game, as well as many other good players. React Faster and Pelican are easily nuking large groups of players this patch on DK in Cyrodiil, which has never been achieved so effectively in previous patches on any class, not even Northern Storm Warden, etc.

How literally are we taking this? Because nothing comes even remotely close to what a cp 2000++ Nightblade could do during 1.6 era. When you show me a DK that can front bar gank, then swap to back bar 1vx duel-brawler, let me know lol.

Come to think of it, with the power-creep inflation when all class refreshes are finished, maybe we going full circle here.

Only gank? Bruh, a pure DK can currently BOMB and 1vX. Your NB example means nothing.

React’s clip:

https://youtu.be/LrHAqxmLR98?si=hMg6AsAlh1c6K6hj

Pelican’s clip:

https://youtu.be/n-Qwd3uYrVY?si=bsH3VtO5VMvNXeZZ

Tell me if your NB can do the same

The cp 2000 NB I knew from 1.6: His front bar was bow ganker that was capable of 30k bursts from ranged. And if anyone got close to him and broke his stealth, his back bar(another offense bar) turned him into a brawler duelist. He would just pressure people down while perma blocking and was able to kill one-by-one. And if there were too many that he couldn't face-tank, he could just go back to his bow gank bar and start pulling off kite/cloak maneuvers. All of this made possible due to how powerful uncapped CP was. He was essentially a mini-emperor. All stats, no proc sets.

This is a silly thing to argue though as we're talking about wildy different eras. But I just found this claim of "strongest in history" to be funny. This also doesn't compare to old magdk that could talons > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm *killing blows with alliance war passives* > Standard of might > talons > batswarm > talons > talons > batswarm. Do a few flame lashes here and there just because. Maybe try to stack another standard of might in your previous standard of might that hasn't expired yet even though you managed to pull off another two batswarms.

Even if you gave your NB example today’s power crept stats, current pure DK would still nuke him. In fact, it would nuke 5 of him at the same time.

React is known among the PvP community as one of the best PvPers across all platforms, and he’s also my guildie, which means he has expressed a lot more of his opinion on discord than on here. You can check his channel and see just how many classes and builds he has used to 1vX over the years. If he thinks the current DK is the strongest build the game has ever seen, then I’m going to trust that opinion.

Ok but the class is only one factor in the final output, there are others. If one other variable is wildly out of tune then it can make the class look MUCH stronger than it is when that variable is removed. It can be true that the class is the strongest ever and doesn't need a nerf given it's the first overhauled. I suspect your real complaint lies here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664954/vicious-death-hitting-for-60k

The set is useless in duels and 4v4s, there's PVP besides Champion Cyro.

Pelican doesn't use Vicious Death and he's wiping 5-6 people with Flame Lash. Also, when was the last time you saw a 1vXer using Vicious Death up until this patch? Please name me ONE patch in the history of ESO where a 1vX brawler build runs Vicious Death. This is the only patch where that happens, and it happens on DK. Not even the meta Animal/Assassination/X build of last patch could pull that off.

Look, I get it, you want pure DK to stay, but that doesn't mean other people like me are enjoying PvP. As I have said, I will be sitting out for this update until class mastery passives patch goes live, and if that doesns't help my pure Sorc compete, then I will sit out for another 6 months until Sorc gets a rework.

hoangdz · March 17

Urzigurumash wrote: »

A clip of the Lebomb James of ESO pwning pugs just doesn't cut it in this court, sorry. Objection, irrelevant

The difference is in how effective it is compared to other meta subclass builds.

Urzigurumash · March 17

hoangdz wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

A clip of the Lebomb James of ESO pwning pugs just doesn't cut it in this court, sorry. Objection, irrelevant

The difference is in how effective it is compared to other meta subclass builds.

That React video can be seen as an exhibit of the extreme multiplicative scaling of differences between other elements VD provides. Best player, best class, extreme gimmick set.

ADarklore · March 17

What's interesting, even though I don't PVP but have seen the same arguments for years... every time there is a meta/class shakeup... "WHY can't I dominate anymore?" "WHY is this class stronger?" Well, because THAT class was weak for years and years. DK DPS was bad for years, most people played DK only as tank, so it's about time they get a boost again. Players who have been here for years have gone through this over and over and over again... a class gets a buff, everyone who is not that class screams about it, their class gets a buff however, and they're on here supporting it and bashing those calling for a nerf.

The one thing I've learned from playing many MMOs is that you have to be able to roll with the changes and not expect a permanent meta. If you cannot, then perhaps an MMO isn't for you.

SundarahFr3akinrican · March 17

I'm a bow/bow nightblade and have been having a blast. Def had to adjust my gameply and really start respecting my distance from players lol chance to get dragon lept has def gone up.

xylena · March 17

Urzigurumash wrote: »

A clip of the Lebomb James of ESO pwning pugs just doesn't cut it in this court, sorry. Objection, irrelevant

Yeah seriously, 1vX is not a measure of anything beyond how bad the X is, though it does demonstrate the extreme power gap caused by busted sets/stats.

When one good player wipes an entire 24man structured zerg raid like they could do with ground oils in 2014, then maybe we can say 1vX is an issue.

Casual PvPers will need more than a week to adapt to the meta. Sweaty players haven't even adapted yet. Being good doesn't make you immune to knee jerk opinions.

Arvedia · March 17

ADarklore wrote: »

What's interesting, even though I don't PVP but have seen the same arguments for years... every time there is a meta/class shakeup... "WHY can't I dominate anymore?" "WHY is this class stronger?" Well, because THAT class was weak for years and years. DK DPS was bad for years, most people played DK only as tank, so it's about time they get a boost again. Players who have been here for years have gone through this over and over and over again... a class gets a buff, everyone who is not that class screams about it, their class gets a buff however, and they're on here supporting it and bashing those calling for a nerf.

The one thing I've learned from playing many MMOs is that you have to be able to roll with the changes and not expect a permanent meta. If you cannot, then perhaps an MMO isn't for you.

The problem isn't just the current meta. The bigger problem is the gap between meta and non meta. It's just gotten waaaay too big. Aside from PvP, you can easily skip mechanics in PVE nowadays. What was once a challenge is now something to just smile about and run over. So yes, nerfs and adjustments are definetly needed in this game. Just bringing the damage of pure classes on par with subclass-meta cannot be the solution.

hoangdz · March 17

xylena wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

A clip of the Lebomb James of ESO pwning pugs just doesn't cut it in this court, sorry. Objection, irrelevant

Yeah seriously, 1vX is not a measure of anything beyond how bad the X is, though it does demonstrate the extreme power gap caused by busted sets/stats.

When one good player wipes an entire 24man structured zerg raid like they could do with ground oils in 2014, then maybe we can say 1vX is an issue.

Casual PvPers will need more than a week to adapt to the meta. Sweaty players haven't even adapted yet. Being good doesn't make you immune to knee jerk opinions.

pure DK is nuking everyone in duels

xylena · March 17

hoangdz wrote: »

pure DK is nuking everyone in duels

Good. Heinous subclass meta has been addressed.

Now we move onto the root cause of extreme tank/burst polarization: busted sets/stats.

Nuke Monomyth and I bet my account the meta is immediately less terrible. I have been saying this since the damn thing released on PTS (and it's even more insulting because it's P2W) but since it doesn't show up doing 15k on your death recap I guess let's nerf DK instead?

Nuke Vicious Death and noobs are no longer double punished just for being noobs.

Ingenon · March 17

Update 49 seems like normal to me. My trial progs updated their spreadsheet of what a team player should look like for this update. I have been playing on PS/NA for multiple years, and it seems like updates that change builds have happened before.

My take on this is if you want to be competitive (for trial progs or for PvP), play a competitive build. Otherwise, don't be surprised if you get dropped from the trial progs, or continuously farmed for AP in PvP.

BXR_Lonestar · March 17

LadyGP wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Arvedia wrote: »

Returning PvP-Player here. Quit PvP after they announced subclassing, returned when I heard about the coming pure class buffs. But after playing with my magplar and getting absolutely nuked by dks, I don't even want to imagine how OP they will be with those buffs on top.

I don't think they'll be able to balance this game at this point. Just going to enjoy the other aspects of the game, PvP is just not fun anymore unless you play meta ig.

They're trying to tapdance around subclassing. They know subclassing is broken, but because there are some people who like it, they either lack the authority or the resolve to admit that subclassing was a mistake and to remove it (along with other mistakes like scribing and hybridization), and so the only way they can make pureclassing more attractive is if they make pureclassing broken-strong too. Because they're not nerfing what pure-classing is competing against, they're just trying to one-up it. So it was always going to be this way.

And it is just going to be like Destiny's revolving meta with the way they are going to keep releasing updates to pureclass - every class will get its day so to speak, and everyone will be playing those classes.

While I think the pure class updates are a great step in the right direction, I don't think they can fix this game while they continue to leave things they KNOW are a problem broken and still in the game. So I've dialed back how much I'm playing the game, and may end up focusing on other single player games or other ES Titles.

I'm with you on this. Reading between the lines on their actions IMO I think old leadership was chasing the Korean MMO trends of one toon to "do all the things" and current leadership is like... nah fam we are ESO... class identity has always been our bread and butter.

I do think they are trying to unwind it without going full removing it. Removing it IMO would be better long term for them but... I think they are in a delicate place ATM where it's hard to convince people in the boardroom that this is the direction we need to head.. so you end up in this middle area of... well lets rework classes and bring back some class identity.

I actually came back after a year off because of U49 and am having a blast. Yes, I'm a DK and PvP is filled with DKs but... we always do this dance right? Each update the meta gets shifted and people chase that new meta. Every game is like this... it's just a wave that comes and goes. Give it a few weeks or another update passes and things will settle.

I'm seeing a lot of non DK skills on my recap for what it is worth and some of these non DK builds hit like a friggin truck.

Those non-DK's that are hitting like a truck are either using some exploits that allow you to stack multiple mundus stones or multiple 5 piece sets (they do exist), or they're subclassed and using one of a tiny handful of builds that have disgusting burst, or both. There is so much busted/broken stuff in PVP right now with glitched shield tosses that will lock you down with no way to break free, to pulls using charm so there is zero defense to getting pulled (and hence, zero way to help your teammates survive). Its honestly driven me away from the game. This stuff is no longer fun to play.

And while I hear rumors of vengeance becoming a permanent server, I don't think that is the answer either because the last few rounds of vengeance have not been fun either. PVP right now just feels like if you're not cheesing it or if you aren't abusing some kind of exploit, your not being competitive, and that just isn't the way I play, so I'm basically just dialing back how much I play this game altogether. At some point they will be forced to start dialing back the power and addressing these issues, but until they do, I'm content to play elsewhere.

xFocused · March 17

Honestly, PvP in this game hasn't been fun in a long time. Does everyone feel this way? No, probably not, I can't speak for everyone but myself and the handful of veteran PvP'ers I talk to in my guilds and in zone chat. This current DK meta might be slightly oversaturated right now but it's the least of the many issues that have been plaguing PvP for years now.

Rush of Agony is still terribly broken, there's still 0 counters to the unkillable ball/comped groups, charm is still broken and causes players to get stuck under the map, inside of walls and etc...there's more but these are just some of the few problems that plague Cyrodiil right now and is a clear indicator that Zos doesn't actually play in Cyrodiil or some of these would've been addressed by now.

I'm not defending the DK meta right now as I've dipped my toes into the pure class DK builds as well but you can't deny that it's a breath of fresh air after seeing almost everyone run the same Charm warden with the same Ward/Sorc/NB or Plar subclass build. Which is why I've said before and I'll say it again that Subclassing was such a mistake in this game. Especially in PvP

SneaK · March 17

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

A clip of the Lebomb James of ESO pwning pugs just doesn't cut it in this court, sorry. Objection, irrelevant

Yeah seriously, 1vX is not a measure of anything beyond how bad the X is, though it does demonstrate the extreme power gap caused by busted sets/stats.

When one good player wipes an entire 24man structured zerg raid like they could do with ground oils in 2014, then maybe we can say 1vX is an issue.

Casual PvPers will need more than a week to adapt to the meta. Sweaty players haven't even adapted yet. Being good doesn't make you immune to knee jerk opinions.

pure DK is nuking everyone in duels

Do we not remember when there was a stretch of about what, 4 years where MagNB and MagSorc were absolute kings when it came to duels? It’s been one week and we’re supposed to be up in arms cause a pure class is beating the mutt meta no one liked.. i can’t really sympathize with any of this, subclassing was so harmful to ESO anyone complaining about pure class power just seems insane to me. Will fighting against DKs get old over the next few months, yes. Is it worse than fighting against SorcWardens that constantly reset the fight, nope.

Honestly, what are we angry about? Are you trying to play a pure class other than a DK? Cause that wasn’t competitive before u49 either.. maybe you made it work cause you’re a top 2%er I dunno. But the majority of players ran meta mutts cause pure classes couldn’t compete. U49 is the first step at giving power back and also reasons to play other characters than the one “main” with all the skill points to pick and choose the best skill lines.