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Tanks need AOE Taunt
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cuddles_with_wroble✭✭✭✭✭Yes we do but unfortunately they will never add it. It’s also unfortunate how many of you old heads just enjoy a bad mechanic because it’s something you’ve had to deal with so now you feel the need to force yourself to like it2 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd settle for better more class based aoe pull options for versatility. What do we have, void bash, rush of agony and arcanist's dps aoe pull morph? Sadly there was a scribing one, but it seemed rather hard to use/small radius.1 -
twisttop138✭✭✭✭✭
✭twisttop138 wrote: »Further more in solidifying the key point of who to taunt and who not., I'd also like to urge the removal of taunt on Beckoning Armor and Swarm Mother, the passive taunt from those messes things up easily and violate the concept of active action causing taunt. Also for the simplicity and clarity of taunting behavior, please stop with the old new "soft taunt" (taunt when target is not taunted), make each of those skills either always apply a taunt or not. The over-taunt problem has been patched patches ago thus no reason to keep the taunt conditional.
Absolutely not.
Firstly, over-taunting still exists, and can occur in messy fights. Tanks need to be aware of this.
Secondly, tab-targetting exists for those fights were a taunt swap is needed and allowing application of a hard taunt.
Thirdly, in large pulls there is no clear indicator of what is and isn't taunted. Soft taunt allows a "check" to grab a mob (and usually pull it in) without risking disrupting the stack.
Lastly, some soft taunts come with extra utility. Reducing their usage by making them a hard taunt makes that extra utility worthless.
While I don't need an aoe taunt myself, I feel I have to keep telling people. Console, 2/3 of the platforms that play this game, do not have tab targeting. I mean I could be wrong and am just not doing it right. Maybe someone can let me know.
Press down right stick. I was informed it’s worse than pc though because you can’t cycle targets.
Tab targeting is nice, but you can also jump to help with chaining.
I think the tormentor set was the perfect implementation of AoE taunt. You could do it but it cost a 5pc and you needed to slot a 2H with stampede if you’re not a werewolf, plar, or nightblade.
I will try this jump to help with chaining. I do press down on right stick to single out a target for sure but I meant more of the classic mmo sense of cycling targets. Since this is everyone's first bit of "knowledge" they like to drop in a discussion like this (obviously not talking about you) I felt it was worth noting that many of us cannot do that.2 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd settle for better more class based aoe pull options for versatility. What do we have, void bash, rush of agony and arcanist's dps aoe pull morph? Sadly there was a scribing one, but it seemed rather hard to use/small radius.
The scribing one has a bit of a learning curve but once you get a sense of how long until it pulls, it’s quite nice. Not all trash are spread out enough for the size to be a problem and some trash (like the black senche in MGF) don’t work right with void bash (void bash spreads them out for some reason). They all have pros and cons. The AoE pull options are well-balanced IMO:
Void bash: 2pc, need to slot a skill for it, large range, proc set cooldown can be too high for back to back pulls, does not pixel stack, applies debuffs
Rush of agony: 5pc, need to slot a skill for it, works with werewolf, does not trigger cc immunity (aka you can re-chain or fear), does not pixel stack
Arcanist pull: one skill but requires that skill line, pixel stacks, not centered on you
Scribe pull: small range but can pre-cast before pulling, no cooldown, centered on you, pixel stacks, applies debuffstwisttop138 wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »Further more in solidifying the key point of who to taunt and who not., I'd also like to urge the removal of taunt on Beckoning Armor and Swarm Mother, the passive taunt from those messes things up easily and violate the concept of active action causing taunt. Also for the simplicity and clarity of taunting behavior, please stop with the old new "soft taunt" (taunt when target is not taunted), make each of those skills either always apply a taunt or not. The over-taunt problem has been patched patches ago thus no reason to keep the taunt conditional.
Absolutely not.
Firstly, over-taunting still exists, and can occur in messy fights. Tanks need to be aware of this.
Secondly, tab-targetting exists for those fights were a taunt swap is needed and allowing application of a hard taunt.
Thirdly, in large pulls there is no clear indicator of what is and isn't taunted. Soft taunt allows a "check" to grab a mob (and usually pull it in) without risking disrupting the stack.
Lastly, some soft taunts come with extra utility. Reducing their usage by making them a hard taunt makes that extra utility worthless.
While I don't need an aoe taunt myself, I feel I have to keep telling people. Console, 2/3 of the platforms that play this game, do not have tab targeting. I mean I could be wrong and am just not doing it right. Maybe someone can let me know.
Press down right stick. I was informed it’s worse than pc though because you can’t cycle targets.
Tab targeting is nice, but you can also jump to help with chaining.
I think the tormentor set was the perfect implementation of AoE taunt. You could do it but it cost a 5pc and you needed to slot a 2H with stampede if you’re not a werewolf, plar, or nightblade.
I will try this jump to help with chaining. I do press down on right stick to single out a target for sure but I meant more of the classic mmo sense of cycling targets. Since this is everyone's first bit of "knowledge" they like to drop in a discussion like this (obviously not talking about you) I felt it was worth noting that many of us cannot do that.
Ahh I see. Yeah, I hope console gets more updates… I keep learning about what console DOESNT have access to and it’s appalling. Like only now getting vertical camera sliders and the inability to turn off bloom.
Jumping can help you reach over the smaller adds in front of you in order to chain something behind them. Sometimes I’ll just reach around what’s in front of me, using the red glow around the target to know it’s the right one (since I can’t always look directly at the enemy due to hitbox of thing in front of me). But I think in terms of efficiency (chaining the right thing): tab target > jumping > reaching > moving.[PC/NA] Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS), Retired Trialist, and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore.- Current GM of Hard Dungeoneers
- Tanks: Sorcerer - Necromancer - Templar
- DPS: Frost Warden - Stamarc
- Ex-healer
- Dungeons: 32/32 HMs - 26/26 Tris
View my builds!
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twisttop138✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd settle for better more class based aoe pull options for versatility. What do we have, void bash, rush of agony and arcanist's dps aoe pull morph? Sadly there was a scribing one, but it seemed rather hard to use/small radius.
The scribing one has a bit of a learning curve but once you get a sense of how long until it pulls, it’s quite nice. Not all trash are spread out enough for the size to be a problem and some trash (like the black senche in MGF) don’t work right with void bash (void bash spreads them out for some reason). They all have pros and cons. The AoE pull options are well-balanced IMO:
Void bash: 2pc, need to slot a skill for it, large range, proc set cooldown can be too high for back to back pulls, does not pixel stack, applies debuffs
Rush of agony: 5pc, need to slot a skill for it, works with werewolf, does not trigger cc immunity (aka you can re-chain or fear), does not pixel stack
Arcanist pull: one skill but requires that skill line, pixel stacks, not centered on you
Scribe pull: small range but can pre-cast before pulling, no cooldown, centered on you, pixel stacks, applies debuffstwisttop138 wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »Further more in solidifying the key point of who to taunt and who not., I'd also like to urge the removal of taunt on Beckoning Armor and Swarm Mother, the passive taunt from those messes things up easily and violate the concept of active action causing taunt. Also for the simplicity and clarity of taunting behavior, please stop with the old new "soft taunt" (taunt when target is not taunted), make each of those skills either always apply a taunt or not. The over-taunt problem has been patched patches ago thus no reason to keep the taunt conditional.
Absolutely not.
Firstly, over-taunting still exists, and can occur in messy fights. Tanks need to be aware of this.
Secondly, tab-targetting exists for those fights were a taunt swap is needed and allowing application of a hard taunt.
Thirdly, in large pulls there is no clear indicator of what is and isn't taunted. Soft taunt allows a "check" to grab a mob (and usually pull it in) without risking disrupting the stack.
Lastly, some soft taunts come with extra utility. Reducing their usage by making them a hard taunt makes that extra utility worthless.
While I don't need an aoe taunt myself, I feel I have to keep telling people. Console, 2/3 of the platforms that play this game, do not have tab targeting. I mean I could be wrong and am just not doing it right. Maybe someone can let me know.
Press down right stick. I was informed it’s worse than pc though because you can’t cycle targets.
Tab targeting is nice, but you can also jump to help with chaining.
I think the tormentor set was the perfect implementation of AoE taunt. You could do it but it cost a 5pc and you needed to slot a 2H with stampede if you’re not a werewolf, plar, or nightblade.
I will try this jump to help with chaining. I do press down on right stick to single out a target for sure but I meant more of the classic mmo sense of cycling targets. Since this is everyone's first bit of "knowledge" they like to drop in a discussion like this (obviously not talking about you) I felt it was worth noting that many of us cannot do that.
Ahh I see. Yeah, I hope console gets more updates… I keep learning about what console DOESNT have access to and it’s appalling. Like only now getting vertical camera sliders and the inability to turn off bloom.
Jumping can help you reach over the smaller adds in front of you in order to chain something behind them. Sometimes I’ll just reach around what’s in front of me, using the red glow around the target to know it’s the right one (since I can’t always look directly at the enemy due to hitbox of thing in front of me). But I think in terms of efficiency (chaining the right thing): tab target > jumping > reaching > moving.
Yeah. I'd argue console is missing out on a few important bits, I was a PC gamer before I went console and I miss some stuff. I'd also say that the PC UI looks way way way better. We e had the same boring menus and stuff since launch.1 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »Yes we do but unfortunately they will never add it. It’s also unfortunate how many of you old heads just enjoy a bad mechanic because it’s something you’ve had to deal with so now you feel the need to force yourself to like it
It's not a bad mechanic. It requires knowledge, thought and skill to execute well.
A bad mechanic would be an AoE taunt that requires none of those things, is a press every 15s, and then have little else to do. Trash packs would become meaningless. They'd lose all challenge for a tank and the group.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!5 -
cuddles_with_wroble✭✭✭✭✭cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »Yes we do but unfortunately they will never add it. It’s also unfortunate how many of you old heads just enjoy a bad mechanic because it’s something you’ve had to deal with so now you feel the need to force yourself to like it
It's not a bad mechanic. It requires knowledge, thought and skill to execute well.
A bad mechanic would be an AoE taunt that requires none of those things, is a press every 15s, and then have little else to do. Trash packs would become meaningless. They'd lose all challenge for a tank and the group.
Trash packs are inherently meaningless most of the time, it’s a knowledge check sure but it’s not a good one ( such as bashing an aoe cast or turning a cone attack) gathering up all the little mobs in one fell swoop is such nice QoL that every other MMO has. ESO is bad at utilizing tanks or making tanks do much of anything in most fights and in imo we should have more tank buster and tank specific mechanics from bosses.
Trash packs don’t drop loot and only really serve the purpose of making you feel like your raiding a fortress, I like when 1 or 2 mobs is bigger and has important mechanics but and AOE taunt doesn’t really change that other than setting up better and more consistent cleave for your dps1 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »Yes we do but unfortunately they will never add it. It’s also unfortunate how many of you old heads just enjoy a bad mechanic because it’s something you’ve had to deal with so now you feel the need to force yourself to like it
It's not a bad mechanic. It requires knowledge, thought and skill to execute well.
A bad mechanic would be an AoE taunt that requires none of those things, is a press every 15s, and then have little else to do. Trash packs would become meaningless. They'd lose all challenge for a tank and the group.
Trash packs are inherently meaningless most of the time, it’s a knowledge check sure but it’s not a good one ( such as bashing an aoe cast or turning a cone attack) gathering up all the little mobs in one fell swoop is such nice QoL that every other MMO has. ESO is bad at utilizing tanks or making tanks do much of anything in most fights and in imo we should have more tank buster and tank specific mechanics from bosses.
Trash packs don’t drop loot and only really serve the purpose of making you feel like your raiding a fortress, I like when 1 or 2 mobs is bigger and has important mechanics but and AOE taunt doesn’t really change that other than setting up better and more consistent cleave for your dps
Failing to interupt, or failing to get out of an AoE, or not turning a cleave can mean a death. That's the end of a no death run and/or a trifecta run - hardly meaningless.
Gathering up little mobs (along with the elites) with one key press isn't quality of life, it's a fundamental change to game mechanics - That also applies to boss fights. Tanking would stop being something that requires knowledge and skill and become a ridiculously simple shadow of itself. The "other MMOs" have emergency AoE taunts that are extremely situational, and are not the primary aggro mechanic. If I wanted to tank with that dullness I'd simply play those games.
Trash packs do drop loot, and the purpose they serve is flavour, challenge, and gate-keeping higher achievements. There are trash packs in the game that are deadlier than the bosses. An AoE taunt fundamentally changes those fights. It allows quicker stacking, and mob movement. That leads to killing them quicker negating some of their nastier mechanics, as well as turning speed runs, no deaths, and trifectas into much simpler achievements.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!4 -
Arcanist pull: one skill but requires that skill line, pixel stacks, not centered on you
This specific one I used as a cornerstone of my hybrid tank/dps arcanist for running random normals (for those occasions where I don't wanna chance a run with the group DPS being 10k, I'd rather not again). The one also positive bonus about it is it doesn't immediately aggro on being placed, giving you time to cast another skill at the target location before it all gets pulled together.
I use this for a combo of Rune of Displacement > Razor Caltrops > Cephialarch Flail > Pragmatic Fatecarver
Gets them stacked, gets them major breached, gets them immobilized in a stack and stuck in caltrops, gets cleaved in beam (plus whatever else the group does). The rest of my kit just supports this combo. Gets rid of trash super fast. I seriously love this one skill so much.1 -
No they don't. I really like that its everyones responsibility to deal with aggro. It makes combat very dynamic.4 -
madman65✭✭✭✭Get into a fight with Saint and Seducer, when active the debuffs aggro anything in the field. Well I would suggest Tormenter but they change it.0 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'd rather have a tank that knows how to handle a boss and provide group support. I could care less about aggro on adds.
As for the adds in trials players do care about, like a Lightbringer or Firestorm in vLC, they do not need AOE taunts as the tanks split them so the group can take them down in order to avoid a wipe.2