DK now the broken meta in PvP

BardokRedSnow · March 11

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player

Are results the same if you duel an opponent who uses Restoring Light not Storm Calling? I've always found this split to be a pretty big difference in duels.

Your opponent probably wasn't healing much from Surge with that few damage sources, 4.2k dps is not gonna overpower better optimized duel specs that put out 5k+ hps.

DKs using storm calling are nasty and really hard to deal with, was the only duel in IC that was pretty much completely one sided for me, I just couldn't handle the burst.

Vulkunne · March 11

Nah DK was always strong. Its just that no one wanted to play that way. What way am I talking about? My old DK would use S&B and I remember just destroying people in PvP 1 at a time. Not 1v1, not 1v2, but 1vX, killing one at a time.

Some people ask questions and others know exactly what I'm talking about. This DK was made to cater to the newer generation of beamers and uh force pulse users. But the original DK was strong in a way probably most players wouldn't understand.

Power comes from many places, not just alot of special effects and hoop-la.

BardokRedSnow · March 11

Vulkunne wrote: »

Nah DK was always strong. Its just that no one wanted to play that way. What way am I talking about? My old DK would use S&B and I remember just destroying people in PvP 1 at a time. Not 1v1, not 1v2, but 1vX, killing one at a time.

Some people ask questions and others know exactly what I'm talking about. This DK was made to cater to the newer generation of beamers and uh force pulse users. But the original DK was strong in a way probably most players wouldn't understand.

Power comes from many places, not just alot of special effects and hoop-la.

Which is exactly why every time we get some love the shy invis gankers and bow proc from the walls crowd comes here and demands a nerf.

hoangdz · March 11

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player

Are results the same if you duel an opponent who uses Restoring Light not Storm Calling? I've always found this split to be a pretty big difference in duels.

Your opponent probably wasn't healing much from Surge with that few damage sources, 4.2k dps is not gonna overpower better optimized duel specs that put out 5k+ hps.

Yes, restoring light does nothing to stop pure DK because it has:

1) Heart of Flame doing direct damage
2) Incinerate doing direct damage
3) Whip doing direct damage
4) Shattering doing direct damage
5) Corrosive doing an AoE DoT and applying full pen
6) Status effect procs that also do direct damage

Restoring Light does very well vs DoT builds, but it's still weak vs burst builds. U49 pure DK has both burst and DoT pressure. This is precisely why I was able to kill the Restoring Light/Animal/Assassination meta build. I literally just pop Corrosive and combo Heart of Flame + Incinerate + Shattering + Whip + status effect procs and nuke them.

hoangdz · March 11

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s

Are you really dying outside of your opponent's ult dump? I'm not.

Are you really getting 100% crit rate every 4sec? I'm not.

The only thing they're doing that's scary is the combo of unblockable stun + undodgeable leap ult + charged whip + delayed flame aoe, and if that one shots that is the same global set/stat problem, not a DK problem. The normal (heavily telegraphed) 14k on your CMX is not scary.

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player without needing an ult. Subclassed builds still need an ult to do that. Your point?

Yea the telegraphed 14k isn’t scary, until you realize it happens every 4s and can be easily sustained because DK for some reason has the best sustain in the game right now.

I don’t even care if it’s telegraphed. I can just repeat that 14k burst combo every 4s. That is the scary part. We are both on PC NA, so I’m willing to bring my DK to fight your subclassed build, just to prove a point, all ego set aside.

Thats definitely a lie, even with soul of flame or heart of flame, the 20 percent warden flat buff to stam and magicka is superior because it doesn't have to be activated, its just there, same with netch besides the cooldown, which to my knowledge is the only skill that grants the resource you use to block, while blocking, and in stamina's case even while sprinting.

Unless they change something, warden will always have the best sustain. DK has to build for sustain more than warden out the box, even with battle roar. What DK does have though is a ton of heals.

Inhale sustain is superior to everything in the game right now. I saw you in game too, so we can always test and I'll prove you wrong.

Thumbless_Bot · March 11

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s

Are you really dying outside of your opponent's ult dump? I'm not.

Are you really getting 100% crit rate every 4sec? I'm not.

The only thing they're doing that's scary is the combo of unblockable stun + undodgeable leap ult + charged whip + delayed flame aoe, and if that one shots that is the same global set/stat problem, not a DK problem. The normal (heavily telegraphed) 14k on your CMX is not scary.

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player without needing an ult. Subclassed builds still need an ult to do that. Your point?

Yea the telegraphed 14k isn’t scary, until you realize it happens every 4s and can be easily sustained because DK for some reason has the best sustain in the game right now.

I don’t even care if it’s telegraphed. I can just repeat that 14k burst combo every 4s. That is the scary part. We are both on PC NA, so I’m willing to bring my DK to fight your subclassed build, just to prove a point, all ego set aside.

Thats definitely a lie, even with soul of flame or heart of flame, the 20 percent warden flat buff to stam and magicka is superior because it doesn't have to be activated, its just there, same with netch besides the cooldown, which to my knowledge is the only skill that grants the resource you use to block, while blocking, and in stamina's case even while sprinting.

Unless they change something, warden will always have the best sustain. DK has to build for sustain more than warden out the box, even with battle roar. What DK does have though is a ton of heals.

Inhale sustain is superior to everything in the game right now. I saw you in game too, so we can always test and I'll prove you wrong.

Except casting it every 3 seconds costs a gcd, resources, bar space and the heal is... meh. Don't get me wrong, it's very good but clunky to use consistently.

hoangdz · March 11

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s

Are you really dying outside of your opponent's ult dump? I'm not.

Are you really getting 100% crit rate every 4sec? I'm not.

The only thing they're doing that's scary is the combo of unblockable stun + undodgeable leap ult + charged whip + delayed flame aoe, and if that one shots that is the same global set/stat problem, not a DK problem. The normal (heavily telegraphed) 14k on your CMX is not scary.

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player without needing an ult. Subclassed builds still need an ult to do that. Your point?

Yea the telegraphed 14k isn’t scary, until you realize it happens every 4s and can be easily sustained because DK for some reason has the best sustain in the game right now.

I don’t even care if it’s telegraphed. I can just repeat that 14k burst combo every 4s. That is the scary part. We are both on PC NA, so I’m willing to bring my DK to fight your subclassed build, just to prove a point, all ego set aside.

Thats definitely a lie, even with soul of flame or heart of flame, the 20 percent warden flat buff to stam and magicka is superior because it doesn't have to be activated, its just there, same with netch besides the cooldown, which to my knowledge is the only skill that grants the resource you use to block, while blocking, and in stamina's case even while sprinting.

Unless they change something, warden will always have the best sustain. DK has to build for sustain more than warden out the box, even with battle roar. What DK does have though is a ton of heals.

Inhale sustain is superior to everything in the game right now. I saw you in game too, so we can always test and I'll prove you wrong.

Except casting it every 3 seconds costs a gcd, resources, bar space and the heal is... meh. Don't get me wrong, it's very good but clunky to use consistently.

It's also semi-decent burst ability (4-6k AoE crits). You are going to cast it every 4s for the damage as it adds to your offensive rotation, which is why it's such a good skill.

xylena · March 11

hoangdz wrote: »

direct damage

Okay so you didn't, because the Restoring Light player isn't gonna be spamming cleanses, it was immediately top meta on all the subclass 1v1 burst builds a week into U46 PTS, in a pure burst meta, nobody preparing for dots or needing to.

The duelers didn't even believe me when I said that Storm Calling would be better OW. There is a world of difference between double plar circles vs unoptimized Storm Calling (their weak Surge couldn't keep up with medium DK pressure). Give players a week or two to adapt.

hoangdz · March 11

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

direct damage

Okay so you didn't, because the Restoring Light player isn't gonna be spamming cleanses, it was immediately top meta on all the subclass 1v1 burst builds a week into U46 PTS, in a pure burst meta, nobody preparing for dots or needing to.

The duelers didn't even believe me when I said that Storm Calling would be better OW. There is a world of difference between double plar circles vs unoptimized Storm Calling (their weak Surge couldn't keep up with medium DK pressure). Give players a week or two to adapt.

And by adapting you mean playing a DK? lol

Vaqual · March 11

Pull a couple of shalks, jump into a pond of lava, block-cast spam Heart of Flame and come back to the forums when you run out of resources or die.
See you in ... never.

Lagzee · March 11

MJallday wrote: »

Molten whip single targeting for 11k+ even when you have 35k +resistance and are blocking

Damage stacking beyond recognition . 6 hits 1 second if it’s done right - so Anyone not running dk is not lasting more than 2 seconds

Count me out until they fix that mess. It’s broken

ngl even though there are a ton of dks right now, for obvious reasons, and even though i certainly am seeing some very hard hitting whips, i am still seeing the same type of damage with incap, bow, sub, even power of the light. 10-14k on average, its not uncommon at all. its just not as broken as you're making it out to be. The damage was there before, and its still here. You're just going to see a ton of people on dk for a while so its going to seem like its broken, but imo its not.

MJallday · March 11

15-20k molten whips all evening

It’s disgusting atm

Lord_Hev · March 11

If only we had soft-caps. It's almost as if this game originally had the foresight to have such a mechanism in place, weird.

IncultaWolf · March 11

DK is fine. 15k whips are fine. The only thing that needs to be nerfed is warden charm.

SneaK · March 11

so I just wanna say….

I’ve hit a 15k plus frag, bow, blast bone, radiant (way higher) before… you know what I’ve never hit until now, a 15k+ whip.

YandereGirlfriend · March 11

MJallday wrote: »

15-20k molten whips all evening

It’s disgusting atm

War, war never changes.

As long as a game lives people will always be calling for nerfs.

BardokRedSnow · March 11

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s

Are you really dying outside of your opponent's ult dump? I'm not.

Are you really getting 100% crit rate every 4sec? I'm not.

The only thing they're doing that's scary is the combo of unblockable stun + undodgeable leap ult + charged whip + delayed flame aoe, and if that one shots that is the same global set/stat problem, not a DK problem. The normal (heavily telegraphed) 14k on your CMX is not scary.

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player without needing an ult. Subclassed builds still need an ult to do that. Your point?

Yea the telegraphed 14k isn’t scary, until you realize it happens every 4s and can be easily sustained because DK for some reason has the best sustain in the game right now.

I don’t even care if it’s telegraphed. I can just repeat that 14k burst combo every 4s. That is the scary part. We are both on PC NA, so I’m willing to bring my DK to fight your subclassed build, just to prove a point, all ego set aside.

Thats definitely a lie, even with soul of flame or heart of flame, the 20 percent warden flat buff to stam and magicka is superior because it doesn't have to be activated, its just there, same with netch besides the cooldown, which to my knowledge is the only skill that grants the resource you use to block, while blocking, and in stamina's case even while sprinting.

Unless they change something, warden will always have the best sustain. DK has to build for sustain more than warden out the box, even with battle roar. What DK does have though is a ton of heals.

Inhale sustain is superior to everything in the game right now. I saw you in game too, so we can always test and I'll prove you wrong.

Im good lol its already odd enough you calling my name in zone chat over a forum debate

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s

Are you really dying outside of your opponent's ult dump? I'm not.

Are you really getting 100% crit rate every 4sec? I'm not.

The only thing they're doing that's scary is the combo of unblockable stun + undodgeable leap ult + charged whip + delayed flame aoe, and if that one shots that is the same global set/stat problem, not a DK problem. The normal (heavily telegraphed) 14k on your CMX is not scary.

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player without needing an ult. Subclassed builds still need an ult to do that. Your point?

Yea the telegraphed 14k isn’t scary, until you realize it happens every 4s and can be easily sustained because DK for some reason has the best sustain in the game right now.

I don’t even care if it’s telegraphed. I can just repeat that 14k burst combo every 4s. That is the scary part. We are both on PC NA, so I’m willing to bring my DK to fight your subclassed build, just to prove a point, all ego set aside.

Thats definitely a lie, even with soul of flame or heart of flame, the 20 percent warden flat buff to stam and magicka is superior because it doesn't have to be activated, its just there, same with netch besides the cooldown, which to my knowledge is the only skill that grants the resource you use to block, while blocking, and in stamina's case even while sprinting.

Unless they change something, warden will always have the best sustain. DK has to build for sustain more than warden out the box, even with battle roar. What DK does have though is a ton of heals.

Inhale sustain is superior to everything in the game right now. I saw you in game too, so we can always test and I'll prove you wrong.

Except casting it every 3 seconds costs a gcd, resources, bar space and the heal is... meh. Don't get me wrong, it's very good but clunky to use consistently.

Exactly. Im using the skill on my current setup now, its fine. Adequate, but not superior to warden.

BardokRedSnow · March 11

In fact if they did nerf soul/heart of flame like @hoangdz was calling for so much in the pts section, it would pretty much be a dead skill. Not even worth running that when you can use something like wield soul for major vitality and class mastery. Still deciding now tbh if thats better in that spot, probably is. Its just really fun to use lol so I kinda dont wanna replace it.

Decimus · March 11

Oh no, the reworked DK class is stronger than the subclass mutants, what are we going to do now...

It's almost as if players asked for this. It's almost like this gives some hope that the other classes' reworks will be equally awesome. Almost.

On a serious note, I recommend subclassing into DK on Sorc, NB, Warden etc... plenty of viable setups out there.

Season of the dragon, until U50 🐉

SandandStars · March 11

Pro Tip: Balancing PVP has never been a priority.

Your choices are to pick a flavor of meta or accept that you'll play at a disadvantage on your off-meta build.

I just came back to pvp after a 3-year break. The battlegrounds are as buggy, desynced, and poor quality as ever (Xbox NA).

And yep, everyone's on a DK spamming molten whips. Classic eso...

Vaqual · March 11

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In fact if they did nerf soul/heart of flame like @hoangdz was calling for so much in the pts section, it would pretty much be a dead skill. Not even worth running that when you can use something like wield soul for major vitality and class mastery. Still deciding now tbh if thats better in that spot, probably is. Its just really fun to use lol so I kinda dont wanna replace it.

5 Heavy, no Well-fitted, 25k Stam, 1100 Stam Recovery, no Pots, no Survival Instincts, just Core of Flame, spot the problem:

BardokRedSnow · March 11

All of these examples never take into consideration actually using the skill in a fight, especially out in cyrodiil. Lava like your previous example doesn't stun, immobilize or knock back etc. Its just a dot. And you could do that before heart/soul of flame.

ViggyBoi · March 11

They WARNED us that this was going to happen and that they would be implementing gradual fixes and changes as they refreshed each of the classes guys

Vaqual · March 11

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

All of these examples never take into consideration actually using the skill in a fight, especially out in cyrodiil. Lava like your previous example doesn't stun, immobilize or knock back etc. Its just a dot. And you could do that before heart/soul of flame.

That is plainly to illustrate that this ability is numerically out of whack. Of course you can easily and sustainably stand in lava with a HoT or two and a bit of sustain. But with this ability you don't need either of those things.

With 20k resources missing this ability provides an equivalent of 6k recoveries (3k per second if spammed) while paying for itself, conveniently keeping the Stam pool bolstered for dodge-casting the hell out of it. "Oh but in a fight someone stuns you and hits you back and so..." - Yes, that same thing happens to literally everyone else too.
Sustain is an afterthought with this. You couldn't run dry if you tried. You don't have to admit that I am right, because I know that I am. And these resource pools aren't even reaching "heavy abuse" range. This is not good for the game.

#NumbersMatter or so

Poss · March 12

I don’t care how strong the DK is right now, I’ll take this over consecutive broken charms any day. Meta chasers, knock yourselves out, go have some fun and retire your wardens

xFocused · March 12

Poss wrote: »

I don’t care how strong the DK is right now, I’ll take this over consecutive broken charms any day. Meta chasers, knock yourselves out, go have some fun and retire your wardens

This. Before DK's it's been nothing but Charm wardens running either a Sorc, NB or plar subclass line spamming charm, shalks, surprise attack or NB bow. I decided to give a pure DK class a chance after maining a cro for quite some time now and it's probably the most fun I've been having in GH in quite some time. There's always going to be some kind of annoying meta that'll make us rush to these forum and ask for nerfs, but it's just the nature of the game

MJallday · March 12

ViggyBoi wrote: »

They WARNED us that this was going to happen and that they would be implementing gradual fixes and changes as they refreshed each of the classes guys

I can’t wait for that to be finished with the last class - in 2028

People won’t hang around for that

Pops_ND_Irish · March 12

Unhappy if you don't, unhappy if you do !

Thumbless_Bot · March 12

Poss wrote: »

I don’t care how strong the DK is right now, I’ll take this over consecutive broken charms any day. Meta chasers, knock yourselves out, go have some fun and retire your wardens

Not being charmed ( lame skill to begin with ) is a welcome change... ngl

BardokRedSnow · March 12

Vaqual wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

All of these examples never take into consideration actually using the skill in a fight, especially out in cyrodiil. Lava like your previous example doesn't stun, immobilize or knock back etc. Its just a dot. And you could do that before heart/soul of flame.

That is plainly to illustrate that this ability is numerically out of whack. Of course you can easily and sustainably stand in lava with a HoT or two and a bit of sustain. But with this ability you don't need either of those things.

With 20k resources missing this ability provides an equivalent of 6k recoveries (3k per second if spammed) while paying for itself, conveniently keeping the Stam pool bolstered for dodge-casting the hell out of it. "Oh but in a fight someone stuns you and hits you back and so..." - Yes, that same thing happens to literally everyone else too.
Sustain is an afterthought with this. You couldn't run dry if you tried. You don't have to admit that I am right, because I know that I am. And these resource pools aren't even reaching "heavy abuse" range. This is not good for the game.

#NumbersMatter or so

Okie buddy, well be sure to save that and send it to zos in 3 years when the other refreshes are done lol. In the meantime, buckle in and enjoy the ride.