ZOS you really should have Explained the changing of Endeavors better. Many think they are gone.

ElderSmitter · March 6

You would be shocked how many players in the Guilds i am in think Endeavors are gone forever and wanting to quit playing because that and dallies they think are gone. I explained they are not gone just removed but a better explanation is really needed for the entire player base. Many players feel like they got a gut shot and looked forward to logging in daily.

Just wanted to share.

Cheers!

Grega · March 6

it was explained and published well enough, with details repeating many times over.

Many people who were confused or didn’t know, cited articles that were clearly stating things that were allegedly unknown, and others had to point out to reread content.

the lack of general overall knowledge and understanding points to a greater humanity related issue we are presented with since 2020+ but … this isn’t the place to go into that.

Soarora · March 6

We need patch notes and high priority articles to be a part of the crown store popup on login. I never read patch notes or articles as a casual, I just knew from advertising what the next dlc theme would be.

Toanis · March 6

But endeavors ARE gone for good, aren't they?

We get a battle pass instead. I'd be fine if that works like the current golden pursuit and you can grind your monthly chores in a couple hours and then don't "have" to log in for the rest of the month just because of FOMO, but usually battle passes are more predatory.

Frayton · March 6

I'm seeing a lot of confusion in zone chat too. Some sort of notice or announcement in game would be nice.

ElderSmitter · March 6

Toanis wrote: »

But endeavors ARE gone for good, aren't they?

We get a battle pass instead. I'd be fine if that works like the current golden pursuit and you can grind your monthly chores in a couple hours and then don't "have" to log in for the rest of the month just because of FOMO, but usually battle passes are more predatory.

No you are going to be able to earn Endeavors and from what Skinny Cheeks said the number of Endeavors is going up from approx. 2,000 per month to 2,500. Clarity would be nice from Zos though.

Toanis · March 6

ElderSmitter wrote: »

No you are going to be able to earn Endeavors and from what Skinny Cheeks said the number of Endeavors is going up from approx. 2,000 per month to 2,500. Clarity would be nice from Zos though.

Ah you mean Seals of Endeavour, the currency, not Endeavours, the daily mini quests.

SkaiFaith · March 6

Grega wrote: »

it was explained and published well enough, with details repeating many times over.

Many people who were confused or didn’t know, cited articles that were clearly stating things that were allegedly unknown, and others had to point out to reread content.

the lack of general overall knowledge and understanding points to a greater humanity related issue we are presented with since 2020+ but … this isn’t the place to go into that.

Got to agree with this, but it's also awesome, and it's also sad...

Too many times seen people not understanding something after repeating it slowly and plainly to them - at that point is their problem really. (PUGS know, lol)

Calastir · March 6

In-game message or pop-up would have sufficed.

No sense in denying the fact that only a fraction of the player base reads the forums or follows the Twitch streams, nor should that be required.

Danikat · March 6

I agree that something on the announcement popup would have been useful.

I did read the articles but I didn't realise (or forgot?) that endeavours were being removed a few weeks before the season pass came in, I thought it would be an immediate switch from one to the other, so I was surprised when there were no new endeavours. It doesn't help that the menu is still in the game, making it look like it's just not loading properly or something.

I'm also concerned that some people are currently celebrating the current lack of (two of the game's several) FOMO systems as if it's not just a temporary transition but a permanent choice by ZOS and I'm concerned there's going to be an equal and opposite backlash when they learn that it's just replacing one system with another.

LootAllTheStuff · March 6

Calastir wrote: »

In-game message or pop-up would have sufficed.

No sense in denying the fact that only a fraction of the player base reads the forums or follows the Twitch streams, nor should that be required.

How many players read the existing in-game notices? It seems like most people click through the startup messages as fast as possible. Honestly, there's no fixing human nature.

What ZOS could have done is put some different text on the Endeavours page with a clearer explanation than "Currently not available". I'm guessing that would have had to be in the last update though.

twisttop138 · March 6

Soarora wrote: »

We need patch notes and high priority articles to be a part of the crown store popup on login. I never read patch notes or articles as a casual, I just knew from advertising what the next dlc theme would be.

This 100% I'm a search for the info guy. I'm the guy in my guild discord sharing info from the forums, the articles etc. I like to keep my members informed and many will just ping me when others have questions. The ESO news anchor if you will. But this is obviously not everyone.

Like it or not, you shouldn't have to go to outside sources for major changes to the game. These are your paying customers and you should want to keep them informed in the best way possible. Instead of a pop up about death match weekend, you should borrow what fallout 76 does. It has a pop up you have to look at before you can character select. It tells the current event and also news articles. An easy way to make sure people have no excuse to be surprised.

emilyhyoyeon · March 6

I think the majority of the problem is that, from my experience, people always called ''seals of endeavor,'' the currency, just ''endeavors'' rather than ''seals.''

Like, ''How much does that mount cost?'' ''It costs 16k endeavors.''

So now that people are hearing ''endeavors'' are going away, they think the currency is going away.

agelonestar · March 6

ZoS explains nothing.

To understand what's coming - by which I mean, to understand the changes to today's game - you have to read through about five badly written articles. And they're sales drivel, not explanations for existing, paying customers.

I'm actually starting to wonder if ZoS is intentionally killing the game.

twisttop138 · March 6

Toanis wrote: »

But endeavors ARE gone for good, aren't they?

We get a battle pass instead. I'd be fine if that works like the current golden pursuit and you can grind your monthly chores in a couple hours and then don't "have" to log in for the rest of the month just because of FOMO, but usually battle passes are more predatory.

The battle pass will be the exact same as your daily and weekly endeavors. There will just be more tasks and more stuff to get. It will likely look something like this.
Kill 5 storm atros.
Pick 5 locks.
Fun 2 random dungeons.
Weekly
Complete 3 trials.
Harvest 50 crafting nodes.

We will have the option to reroll ones we don't like, with you getting a certain number of rerolls a week. Idk if extras will be a sub benefit or something to buy in the pass. That would be a good idea along with tome xp boosters to buy and receive as an ESO plus benefit. Maybe even daily challenges above what non subscribers get.

Edit to add. Im very critical of Zos and the new direction, especially the battle pass. But I feel I have to add, the way I understand it, that if you pay for the 2 premium tomes, apparently you don't have to finish them during that season. You keep them to do at your leisure. I have no clue how this will work, maybe someone can confirm or explain. Maybe @ZOS_Kevin can tell it better. But it feels less predatory and fomo ish and more fair to the player.

ApoAlaia · March 6

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

In-game message or pop-up would have sufficed.

No sense in denying the fact that only a fraction of the player base reads the forums or follows the Twitch streams, nor should that be required.

How many players read the existing in-game notices? It seems like most people click through the startup messages as fast as possible. Honestly, there's no fixing human nature.

What ZOS could have done is put some different text on the Endeavours page with a clearer explanation than "Currently not available". I'm guessing that would have had to be in the last update though.

That could have helped I think.

The 'notice' could have been something along these lines:

'Seals of Endeavor will be earnable via Golden Pursuit during the month of March. Moving forward they will be available as part of the upcoming Tamriel Tomes. For more information please refer to the official The Elder Scrolls Online website'.

I am pretty sure something like that would have fitted fine in the relevant UI scene.

DragonRacer · March 6

It's definitely been really bad. I am used to having to explain changes or answer questions in guild chat for folks who just absolutely cannot be bothered to use the Internet for anything other than gaming, apparently. But I am spending most of my time in-game, it feels, constantly answering the same issues/concerns about the daily login rewards/Seals of Endeavors and also about the console add-on situation, of which basically every thread concerning that got deleted off the forum. So that's been truly fun to have to try and keep up with information from other sources to keep the guild updated.

I even got a DM from a guildmate asking my honest opinion if I thought the game was dying because of ZOS removing the daily login rewards and Daily/Weekly Endeavors. Like they thought the game was being sunsetted. What was disappointing was combing the forum to try and find one big article detailing *all the changes* to send them and instead it's piece-mealed everywhere. Felt bad giving a paragraph summary and then linking like 5 articles to them, but my God.

I do have a news channel set up on my Discord where ESO blogs go, but not everyone is on Discord. Not everyone checks the forums. I also saw a lot of confusion in some of the ESO Facebook groups, which... I found really confusing because the info has been shared there a bunch plus ZOS posts on social media.

Destai · March 6

Agreed.

One of the most confusing things is how it was removed. We can still click on the Endeavors menus but are greeted with a rather confusing message that implies it will be back soon. No further explanation given. I really would've preferred they not sunset a feature without rolling out its replacement.

DragonRacer wrote: »

It's definitely been really bad. I am used to having to explain changes or answer questions in guild chat for folks who just absolutely cannot be bothered to use the Internet for anything other than gaming, apparently.

That's noble of you to do. It's always best to structure communications around how people actually consume info, rather than how someone feels they should. Good on you.

DragonRacer wrote: »

But I am spending most of my time in-game, it feels, constantly answering the same issues/concerns about the daily login rewards/Seals of Endeavors and also about the console add-on situation, of which basically every thread concerning that got deleted off the forum. So that's been truly fun to have to try and keep up with information from other sources to keep the guild updated.

I wish they'd lean more into the announcement pages. Seeing some short message where there used to be an Endeavor was confusing. Were I not a forum regular, I wouldn't have known. Makes the whole thing feel a little rushed.

DragonRacer wrote: »

What was disappointing was combing the forum to try and find one big article detailing *all the changes* to send them and instead it's piece-mealed everywhere. Felt bad giving a paragraph summary and then linking like 5 articles to them, but my God.

This is something folks like @ZOS_Kevin or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom should be doing IMO. I've suggested a few times that we get some kind of community management digest, and maybe that suggestion's been lost in the fray. But yeah, with changes like these, it's better to over communicate than under communicate. And really, the best place for communication is in-game. That's where it gets frustrating seeing that Crown Store pop-up get refreshed so quickly and wonderfully but things like this get a less detailed treatment.

The problem will pass once the new systems are out, but just wish the road were a little less bumpy.

SummersetCitizen · March 6

They are transitioning to a system that will essentially monetize the same tasks by adding enhanced, upgraded options.

If people really understood what was happening more people would be upset in my opinion.

LunaFlora · March 6

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

They are transitioning to a system that will essentially monetize the same tasks by adding enhanced, upgraded options.

If people really understood what was happening more people would be upset in my opinion.

the tasks are available to everyone for free.
Purchasing the Tamriel Tomes gives you extra rewards to unlock.

SummersetCitizen · March 6

LunaFlora wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

They are transitioning to a system that will essentially monetize the same tasks by adding enhanced, upgraded options.

If people really understood what was happening more people would be upset in my opinion.

the tasks are available to everyone for free.
Purchasing the Tamriel Tomes gives you extra rewards to unlock.

That is what I said.

Basically, the same tasks except now you’ll be shown a paid option to enhance or upgrade your reward.

They are using these previously 100% free loyalty systems as monetization now.

ZOS_Kevin · March 6

Destai wrote: »

This is something folks like @ZOS_Kevin or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom should be doing IMO. I've suggested a few times that we get some kind of community management digest, and maybe that suggestion's been lost in the fray. But yeah, with changes like these, it's better to over communicate than under communicate. And really, the best place for communication is in-game. That's where it gets frustrating seeing that Crown Store pop-up get refreshed so quickly and wonderfully but things like this get a less detailed treatment.

We did a digest about 2 or 3 years ago and found that folks were not reading them. The theory is it was viewed as a rehash of information we had already put out, so folks were not interested in reading it. And if folks were already not reading our social/ forums/ or articles, then they also were not reading the Digest. We can look into trying this again, but just wanted to note that. We did it for about six months.

I think the big confusion point here is, folks so use Endeavors and Seals of Endeavors interchangeably. Which we understand. We have communicated these changes in several different ways to make sure we are covering as much of the community as we could. We are also clearing things up where we can.

We have noted the confusion with the team and asked for a better way to communicate these changes in-game, as we currently do not have a good spot to do longer form messaging. Which would have at least helped in making sure anyone logging in would see the update. All that to say, we recognize that despite our efforts to communicate these changes in articles, livestreams, forum posts, social platforms and patch notes, the change has left folks who are not keeping tabs on those confused and we need a better way to address them.

dcrush · March 6

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

They are transitioning to a system that will essentially monetize the same tasks by adding enhanced, upgraded options.

If people really understood what was happening more people would be upset in my opinion.

the tasks are available to everyone for free.
Purchasing the Tamriel Tomes gives you extra rewards to unlock.

That is what I said.

Basically, the same tasks except now you’ll be shown a paid option to enhance or upgrade your reward.

They are using these previously 100% free loyalty systems as monetization now.

If the rewards for the free version of the battle pass will be similar to what we’re getting now, that is still a 100% free loyalty system.

If the rewards go down then a formerly free system will suddenly be partially monetized and you would be correct. We will have to wait and see when it launches what the free rewards are.

However, if you mean that this new system is intended to lure people into spending money to get additional rewards then you are absolutely correct.

SummersetCitizen · March 6

dcrush wrote: »

However, if you mean that this new system is intended to lure people into spending money to get additional rewards then you are absolutely correct.

100% what I mean.

How I see it: They are changing the Daily/Weekly Endeavor system to funnel people into essentially a double subscription model.

They want you to both buy the premium tome and be an ESO+ member. This new system is a perpetual reminder of what you are missing when you are not paying extra. Each activity you complete you will be seeing the extra currency and items you are missing out on.

Compared to the simple and generous system we have now this is not a good change. It feels manipulative to me.

Eternity_Was · March 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

And if folks were already not reading our social/ forums/ or articles, then they also were not reading the Digest.

Let’s be honest… it’s not ZoS in this instance. They put out plenty of information about this. I’ve spent probably hours informing people of the information from the live stream a few months ago and I’m sure they’ve put out even more information since then.

The vast majority of the community does not read the information. They either wait for a guildmate to tell them about it or they watch a YouTube content creator.

Let me just ask one question to anyone who disagrees: have you ever skipped a tutorial/in-game pop-up message that had information you needed? (If you say no.. you’re probably the worst offender because you don’t even know what’s in the messages).

The problem is that most people get their information socially in-game. To further complicate the issue.. players are constantly making up rumors and then further adapting these rumors like the telephone game. EVEN IF ZoS put a banner pop-up in game.. I can almost guarantee that at least 50% of the players spam close everything on their screen.

Barto92 · March 6

Start - using - in-game - chat!!! @ZOS_Kevin

alaunanna · March 6

@ZOS_Kevin
What would be great, is, when you are planning to release something major on the forums/site with information about big changes to the way people can access content/play their character etc., that we receive an ingame mail with the basics of when and what is changing, and a link to the long form version with the details from the forums/site post.

Then people don't have to search everything everywhere to keep up with big changes. I.e. Things like Vengeance dates we tend to only find on an image on seasonal post on the main website (you can't search for the date as it's not usually written in searchable text). A quick ingame mail once the date is confirmed would be great!

ApoAlaia · March 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

This is something folks like @ZOS_Kevin or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom should be doing IMO. I've suggested a few times that we get some kind of community management digest, and maybe that suggestion's been lost in the fray. But yeah, with changes like these, it's better to over communicate than under communicate. And really, the best place for communication is in-game. That's where it gets frustrating seeing that Crown Store pop-up get refreshed so quickly and wonderfully but things like this get a less detailed treatment.

We did a digest about 2 or 3 years ago and found that folks were not reading them. The theory is it was viewed as a rehash of information we had already put out, so folks were not interested in reading it. And if folks were already not reading our social/ forums/ or articles, then they also were not reading the Digest. We can look into trying this again, but just wanted to note that. We did it for about six months.

I think the big confusion point here is, folks so use Endeavors and Seals of Endeavors interchangeably. Which we understand. We have communicated these changes in several different ways to make sure we are covering as much of the community as we could. We are also clearing things up where we can.

We have noted the confusion with the team and asked for a better way to communicate these changes in-game, as we currently do not have a good spot to do longer form messaging. Which would have at least helped in making sure anyone logging in would see the update. All that to say, we recognize that despite our efforts to communicate these changes in articles, livestreams, forum posts, social platforms and patch notes, the change has left folks who are not keeping tabs on those confused and we need a better way to address them.

Disclaimer (because sometimes 'tone' gets lost in the prose): This is not a dig or a 'smartass' moment, is a well intentioned question coming from a place of ignorance (because yours truly has no idea what the 'backend' looks like or what internal processes any change, however small it might look, needs to go through).

In this specific case - as already mentioned - the 'Endeavours' UI scene shows a generic 'not available' text.

Is it feasible to replace that string with a different one, for instance 'Earn seals of endeavours this March through the Golden Pursuit and stay tuned for new ways of earning seals at your own pace in the upcoming Tamriel Tomes!' or something along those lines? (apologies if the 'sample string' reads atrocious, creative prose, not my thing).

The fact that the current UI scene displays a vaguely ominous text string is probably a contributing factor to the confusion and bewilderment experienced by those players 'not in the know'.

Given that they are likely to visit that scene they are also more likely to actually read the message?

scrappy1342 · March 6

i think in game announcements would be the perfect place for this kind of thing. where the old daily bonuses and event notices showed up. if there was not enough room, that could have even linked to an article in the help section where there's plenty of room. yeah, a lot of ppl won't notice, but more ppl than did this way for sure. and more ppl spread the word quicker. plus it's far easier to tell someone in guild/zone "just hit esc and click on announcements and that will answer your questions."

i guess you could even put in a quest giver with the info on them >.> but really announcements should be enough

MidnightDuel · March 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We have noted the confusion with the team and asked for a better way to communicate these changes in-game, as we currently do not have a good spot to do longer form messaging. Which would have at least helped in making sure anyone logging in would see the update. All that to say, we recognize that despite our efforts to communicate these changes in articles, livestreams, forum posts, social platforms and patch notes, the change has left folks who are not keeping tabs on those confused and we need a better way to address them.

What's the purpose of the "System Alerts" in player's in-game mail, if not to communicate important changes? During the Hearts Week Event, it was used for Companion messages, which IMO should have been under the "System Mail" category.

Also, the "Announcements" section could be used for more communication than just what's currently in the Crown Store. Now that the Daily Login Rewards box is gone, there is space in the bottom section for other messages.

Timely and important messages in-game would be far more valuable to most players than forum posts and website articles.

Eternity_Was · March 6

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

How I see it: They are changing the Daily/Weekly Endeavor system to funnel people into essentially a double subscription model.

They want you to both buy the premium tome and be an ESO+ member. This new system is a perpetual reminder of what you are missing when you are not paying extra. Each activity you complete you will be seeing the extra currency and items you are missing out on.

Compared to the simple and generous system we have now this is not a good change. It feels manipulative to me.

This is a huge disservice to the community and anyone you are friends with that you push this information on. They LITERALLY said the whole point of the tome system was to 1) reduce the amount of tasks that someone has to complete from various to-do lists each day.. thereby making the game feel less like a chore or a job. 2) by spreading all of your tome tasks across three months.. you can essentially miss two months of game time and still get all the seals.. you would in no way be able to do that with the old system. Complaining about a positive quality of life change and spreading discontent is why the community is broken.. not ZoS.

To address your complaints about a double subscription… the VAST majority of players will not need to buy the premium pass. The $15 premium pass only awards more cosmetics/trinkets (potions/scrolls/etc.. mind you.. most people complain about as junk) AND no expiration date. How quickly do people complete the golden pursuits that last 30 days?? Yup.. two hours. How quickly do you think people are going to complete the tomes that last 90 days? Likely six hours.. (probably an under exaggeration but it gets the point across that you DONT NEED unlimited time). I do however believe most players will opt to pay for the $15 pass because they want the extra cosmetics/mounts/etc. how do I know this?? Because most everyone I know buys the collectors version of the chapters each year… even if you buy a premium every season.. you’re only spending $45 per year (because you get a free premium+ membership with 12 months of ESO+.. making it so you only need to cover 9 months.. or 3 seasons per year.

You’re ruining the community by sowing discontent against the developers.. the TRUTH is: they moved more content to base game; they’ve upgraded limits/capacity for all players (yes, eso+ usually gets more in these upgrades); they switched to a free content model that allows for all players to play the same content (which will reduce que-finder times and allow for new players to lower their initial cost to play.. which will increase overall player counts); they have focused and implemented massive quality of life changes; they have taken negative critique over and over again and still try to please people who seem to never being willing to be pleased.

The TRUTH is.. the developers are making positive changes. Payroll costs money.. development costs money.. servers cost money.. royalties/storefront cuts reduce the amount they receive from each purchase. Refocusing their revenue stream to more of a cosmetic one.. is huge for increasing player counts.. and smart in my opinion, because more players = more crown store purchases. Making the actual content free is a risk that they might not get paid for the work.. but the crown store will almost certainly cover it.

If you want the extra cosmetics, currency, rewards.. pay the $45 a year.. most of us are used to paying $60 a year for 1 pack of extra cosmetics.. so I don’t see the issue. If you don’t want to spend the money on the game.. rejoice that your experience is now better than it was before update 49.