You've Never Done This Before - Why Now?

virtus753 · March 3

spartaxoxo wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's got to be alternatives for new characters.

Do those easily accessible activities need to 1) be exclusionary of part of the player base and also 2) have a specific reward attached to them?

Here's what a couple of alternatives could have looked like:

-Put it behind an extant activity like the Harvesting 25 nodes, which is easily done on any character. Much more easily done for many than the dungeon one or the scribing one, for example.

-I also would have liked to see them include an activity to respec skills or attributes via the UI, which will be available (for free) on Monday. That would have drawn attention to the change and encouraged people to become familiar with the new UI respec. And everyone will be able to do that easily.

They need enough tasks that everyone get all of them and more new players are excluded from being able to do stuff like trials than this would effect. The only people who can't do it are the ones who have all 18 characters maxed out in every skill line. This means they can all wield every weapon as well. There's probably very few people excluded and those people probably don't need an exp scroll anyway. They have alternate tasks so everyone can finish the pursuit.

I outlined above some alternatives that would have been inclusive of everyone full stop and would have helped assuage concerns about furthering a sense of exclusion while not responding to prior feedback. I didn't suggest doing a trial. I suggested things that are very easy for any character, even for day one players.

Arguments that justify the exclusion of people in the minority because they're a minority are very deeply fraught. They also don't take into consideration how others feel watching people defend a choice that makes some feel excluded when it would have been just as easy to be inclusive instead. That's my issue here. I don't see a rational justification for putting a reward being an activity that may exclude over ones that definitely don't when the options are six of one.

Is an xp scroll the end of the world? Of course not. Nothing in this video game is world ending, despite the many storylines. The xp scroll is not the takeaway. It's the sense of community and how inclusive the devs and players are.

I can certainly see how people can look at things from a purely practical perspective and not be concerned. It's fine not to agree. But I look at a lot of these posts and see language that invalidates those who do have concerns and even at times blames players for putting themselves in the potential position of being excluded. And that's concerning too.

The future of the game rests on its community, as the devs acknowledged when they said people only play for the game itself for five months but play for the community for five years. This decision doesn't seem in keeping with that acknowledgment. Keeping players by taking care to make them feel included is important, just like attracting new ones, and this (like the anniversary style pages) seemed like it should have been a very easy win for everyone. I wish they had taken it.

LootAllTheStuff · March 3

I honestly don't think the XP scroll in and of itself is a big deal. I've now had a chance to look through the current GP list, and there are plenty of options. Neither do I see it as a big deal to have a mix of activities, some of which may be hard or impossible for certain players to complete (too new or too experienced!) - that comes up pretty much EVERY GP/Event and, frankly, the argument is old and stale.

The only thing I WOULD ask ZOS to consider is this: If rewards for completing a set of in-game tasks (endeavours and their replacement) are going to be BOUND, would you at least give us the option of converting them into one of the many currencies? Gems, vouchers, seals, gold - doesn't matter. But if we can't sell or trade them and don't really want or need them, they're just going to get destroyed sooner or later, which kind of takes the shine off getting the reward in the first place.

kargen27 · March 3

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Its not the first time

spartaxoxo wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's got to be alternatives for new characters.

Do those easily accessible activities need to 1) be exclusionary of part of the player base and also 2) have a specific reward attached to them?

Here's what a couple of alternatives could have looked like:

-Put it behind an extant activity like the Harvesting 25 nodes, which is easily done on any character. Much more easily done for many than the dungeon one or the scribing one, for example.

-I also would have liked to see them include an activity to respec skills or attributes via the UI, which will be available (for free) on Monday. That would have drawn attention to the change and encouraged people to become familiar with the new UI respec. And everyone will be able to do that easily.

They need enough tasks that everyone get all of them and more new players are excluded from being able to do stuff like trials than this would effect. The only people who can't do it are the ones who have all 18 characters maxed out in every skill line. This means they can all wield every weapon as well. There's probably very few people excluded and those people probably don't need an exp scroll anyway. They have alternate tasks so everyone can finish the pursuit.

The max character slots are at 20 now...

And if someone has 20 characters with all skill lines maxed... congrats.

I'm thinking with subclassing you can get this in about ten minutes or less running the dolman circuit in the desert. I'm going to find out. I've been putting off getting some of the lesser used lines.

Vonnegut2506 · March 3

The ESO forums: just when you think players can't find something even more insignificant to complain about, you log in and realize players will find a way.

spartaxoxo · 12:23AM

virtus753 wrote: »

I outlined above some alternatives that would have been inclusive of everyone full stop and would have helped assuage concerns about furthering a sense of exclusion while not responding to prior feedback. I didn't suggest doing a trial. I suggested things that are very easy for any character, even for day one players.

I'm not saying you suggested a trial. I am saying things like do a trial are a common goal of the pursuits. And they are exclusionary to new players. The devs try to make each pursuit something that everyone can get done, and also make sure each pursuit is different. That means that they need a variety of tasks for every different type of player.

If the list was only something that everyone could do it would basically always be the same handful of tasks every time (like pick a plant) and would exclude PvP, group content, and dlc.

I don't think that would be as fun or as interesting a system as this one. I think it's better with gameplay variety. So rather than trying to make each individual task inclusive, they gave a large enough amount of tasks that we can all skip ones we can't or don't want to do and still get the prize.

I'll agree they could have done without giving it the exp scroll. If that had been a special title or some other exclusive reward, I would be annoyed too.

But I think having the task is inclusive because it ensures there's something for new players too. We all have tasks targeted towards us and can skip stuff we don't like.

Arunei · 2:02AM

virtus753 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's got to be alternatives for new characters.

Do those easily accessible activities need to 1) be exclusionary of part of the player base and also 2) have a specific reward attached to them?

Here's what a couple of alternatives could have looked like:

-Put it behind an extant activity like the Harvesting 25 nodes, which is easily done on any character. Much more easily done for many than the dungeon one or the scribing one, for example.

-I also would have liked to see them include an activity to respec skills or attributes via the UI, which will be available (for free) on Monday. That would have drawn attention to the change and encouraged people to become familiar with the new UI respec. And everyone will be able to do that easily.

They need enough tasks that everyone get all of them and more new players are excluded from being able to do stuff like trials than this would effect. The only people who can't do it are the ones who have all 18 characters maxed out in every skill line. This means they can all wield every weapon as well. There's probably very few people excluded and those people probably don't need an exp scroll anyway. They have alternate tasks so everyone can finish the pursuit.

I outlined above some alternatives that would have been inclusive of everyone full stop and would have helped assuage concerns about furthering a sense of exclusion while not responding to prior feedback. I didn't suggest doing a trial. I suggested things that are very easy for any character, even for day one players.

Arguments that justify the exclusion of people in the minority because they're a minority are very deeply fraught. They also don't take into consideration how others feel watching people defend a choice that makes some feel excluded when it would have been just as easy to be inclusive instead. That's my issue here. I don't see a rational justification for putting a reward being an activity that may exclude over ones that definitely don't when the options are six of one.

Is an xp scroll the end of the world? Of course not. Nothing in this video game is world ending, despite the many storylines. The xp scroll is not the takeaway. It's the sense of community and how inclusive the devs and players are.

I can certainly see how people can look at things from a purely practical perspective and not be concerned. It's fine not to agree. But I look at a lot of these posts and see language that invalidates those who do have concerns and even at times blames players for putting themselves in the potential position of being excluded. And that's concerning too.

The future of the game rests on its community, as the devs acknowledged when they said people only play for the game itself for five months but play for the community for five years. This decision doesn't seem in keeping with that acknowledgment. Keeping players by taking care to make them feel included is important, just like attracting new ones, and this (like the anniversary style pages) seemed like it should have been a very easy win for everyone. I wish they had taken it.

Friend...it's a single Pursuit that you don't even need to do to complete the whole thing. Also doesn't everyone always say not all content is for everyone to complete? What about the people who can't do Vet HM Trials to get Titles because of health issues? What about people who can't do PvP because they don't have the ability to compete with people who have better reaction times and such? There are plenty of things in this game that not everyone can do, this is the most inconsequential thing, but by this logic everyone needs to be able to do everything so it's inclusive and no one has to feel excluded.

So when are Trial or Arena Mounts and Weapons and the like going to be made available for everyone else? There are plenty of things that will also exclude people from doing X or Y. People at max CP? They can't earn CP any more, people who have a full roster of 20 characters? They can't make more unless they get a second account. These are limits you hit in a game if you opt to do it (except getting CP that will come regardless if you're going to be doing anything that earns exp). But to avoid X or Y just because a certain group of players can't do it in and of itself excludes people who can. It'd be like saying we shouldn't have PvP because there are people who can't do it.

And at the end of the day, it's a single task that doesn't prevent anyone from completeing the GP if they can't do it. And all anyone who can't do it is losing out on is an exp scroll. Plus as someone mentioned there's Subclassing; how many people have max leveled EVERY Class Skill Line on EVERY character they own on top of EVERY other Skill Line too? The number is going to be astronomically low. And it IS all right for there to be things that a minority of people can't complete for whatever reason. Because not everything will be something 100% of the people can do 100% of the time. Someone is ALWAYS going to be exluded somehow.

Qyrk · 3:16AM

Ya’ll

The endeavour includes crafting skills too. So I just created it in one character, and deconstruct them on another. Easy….

coop500 · 3:49AM

After the drama of the night market of all the vets belittling everyone just for asking for trash mobs to not be vet trial difficulty, I find it difficult to feel sympathy for people who supposedly have no skillines to level. Where was this call for community to care about accessibility and minority and exclusivity and all that crud in the PTS?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Renato90085 · 7:52AM

This is the 6th or 7th time already.
why you think it never done

Hotdog_23 · 8:14AM

Could care less about the scroll. I just like to complete everything, and being unable to do this is annoying. Just like it was the last few times they did this. Feels like a middle finger to long-term players, but whatever, it's not the first time and will not be the last time.

Stay safe

frogthroat · 9:02AM

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Could care less about the scroll. I just like to complete everything, and being unable to do this is annoying. Just like it was the last few times they did this. Feels like a middle finger to long-term players, but whatever, it's not the first time and will not be the last time.

Stay safe

Oh, right. I forgot about this in my list. Here it is, revised:

1. Although I have (almost) maxed out all skill lines on all characters, I am still a mere CP2300. Not even close to be half way to CP3600, XP-wise.
2. Completionists
3. FOMO
4. People see shiny, people want shiny.
5. This is the most important part: now it's an XP scroll. Next time it could be tristats and we all love tristats.

twisttop138 · 12:06PM

El_Borracho wrote: »

@twisttop138 and @GloatingSwine Don't get me wrong, I love seeing the Trials/Dungeons in the pursuits or endeavors. I was only thinking of when I was a noob if I saw those pop up I wouldn't think they were as attainable as they are

Oh I was joking. I love trials and dungeons, I do them every weeknight but I think it would be unfair to have a pursuit with only those things lol. As much as I'd love it.

CalamityCat · 12:29PM

This is definitely not the first time skill leveling was in a golden pursuit, because I know I've trained my baby templar for this before.

Pursuits always have enough tasks to suit different kinds of players and I appreciate that. If I see something I don't enjoy/can't do, I just do others instead. The only time I didn't complete a pursuit was because the mount was too hideous so I stopped

I think it's much better to have a range of activities instead of doing endless resource collection/crafting/quests or dungeon crawls, because it would be horribly monotonous if the devs played it safe and bland in every GP.

While some players are past training anything, some of us are still enjoying making new alts and trying different builds. This gives those of us who do want to finish a character's training, a little reward for doing that. All my chars have at least one or two weapon lines or craft skills that I didn't fully max out. My newest templar just started training sword n shield. I'm sure there are plenty of players who focus on training what they plan to use first, and don't get around to finishing off crafting or weapon lines. Also, I've seen quite a few new characters while I was dungeon crawling with my templar, so this is a nice thing to include for them too.

AzuraFan · 3:03PM

You can also craft. Create an alt, start crafting, and you'll get 10 ranks pretty quickly.

I did both of these items by using a low level alt to do dolmens. Killed two birds with one stone. It would have gone a lot quicker if I'd had all three dolmens mapped in the zone so I could travel to each one, but I only had one. So I just hung around there, and because lots of people are doing dolmens right now, the dolmen regularly came up. No worse than waiting for a WB to spawn. Didn't take long to tick those items off, along with incursions. In fact, I finished the skill line items before I'd done 8 dolmens.

zenonuk · 3:35PM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Not the most important thing I know, but I really don't like the precedent you are trying to set ZOS.

This needs correcting, or at the least a guarantee you won't do this again.

It also ties into the planned mini-event starting next week which will see XP boost to skill line levelling - I assume to support new players and those yet to (or still) progressing their subclassed skill lines.