You've Never Done This Before - Why Now?

virtus753 · March 3

spartaxoxo wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's got to be alternatives for new characters.

Do those easily accessible activities need to 1) be exclusionary of part of the player base and also 2) have a specific reward attached to them?

Here's what a couple of alternatives could have looked like:

-Put it behind an extant activity like the Harvesting 25 nodes, which is easily done on any character. Much more easily done for many than the dungeon one or the scribing one, for example.

-I also would have liked to see them include an activity to respec skills or attributes via the UI, which will be available (for free) on Monday. That would have drawn attention to the change and encouraged people to become familiar with the new UI respec. And everyone will be able to do that easily.

They need enough tasks that everyone get all of them and more new players are excluded from being able to do stuff like trials than this would effect. The only people who can't do it are the ones who have all 18 characters maxed out in every skill line. This means they can all wield every weapon as well. There's probably very few people excluded and those people probably don't need an exp scroll anyway. They have alternate tasks so everyone can finish the pursuit.

I outlined above some alternatives that would have been inclusive of everyone full stop and would have helped assuage concerns about furthering a sense of exclusion while not responding to prior feedback. I didn't suggest doing a trial. I suggested things that are very easy for any character, even for day one players.

Arguments that justify the exclusion of people in the minority because they're a minority are very deeply fraught. They also don't take into consideration how others feel watching people defend a choice that makes some feel excluded when it would have been just as easy to be inclusive instead. That's my issue here. I don't see a rational justification for putting a reward being an activity that may exclude over ones that definitely don't when the options are six of one.

Is an xp scroll the end of the world? Of course not. Nothing in this video game is world ending, despite the many storylines. The xp scroll is not the takeaway. It's the sense of community and how inclusive the devs and players are.

I can certainly see how people can look at things from a purely practical perspective and not be concerned. It's fine not to agree. But I look at a lot of these posts and see language that invalidates those who do have concerns and even at times blames players for putting themselves in the potential position of being excluded. And that's concerning too.

The future of the game rests on its community, as the devs acknowledged when they said people only play for the game itself for five months but play for the community for five years. This decision doesn't seem in keeping with that acknowledgment. Keeping players by taking care to make them feel included is important, just like attracting new ones, and this (like the anniversary style pages) seemed like it should have been a very easy win for everyone. I wish they had taken it.

LootAllTheStuff · March 3

I honestly don't think the XP scroll in and of itself is a big deal. I've now had a chance to look through the current GP list, and there are plenty of options. Neither do I see it as a big deal to have a mix of activities, some of which may be hard or impossible for certain players to complete (too new or too experienced!) - that comes up pretty much EVERY GP/Event and, frankly, the argument is old and stale.

The only thing I WOULD ask ZOS to consider is this: If rewards for completing a set of in-game tasks (endeavours and their replacement) are going to be BOUND, would you at least give us the option of converting them into one of the many currencies? Gems, vouchers, seals, gold - doesn't matter. But if we can't sell or trade them and don't really want or need them, they're just going to get destroyed sooner or later, which kind of takes the shine off getting the reward in the first place.

kargen27 · March 3

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Its not the first time

spartaxoxo wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's got to be alternatives for new characters.

Do those easily accessible activities need to 1) be exclusionary of part of the player base and also 2) have a specific reward attached to them?

Here's what a couple of alternatives could have looked like:

-Put it behind an extant activity like the Harvesting 25 nodes, which is easily done on any character. Much more easily done for many than the dungeon one or the scribing one, for example.

-I also would have liked to see them include an activity to respec skills or attributes via the UI, which will be available (for free) on Monday. That would have drawn attention to the change and encouraged people to become familiar with the new UI respec. And everyone will be able to do that easily.

They need enough tasks that everyone get all of them and more new players are excluded from being able to do stuff like trials than this would effect. The only people who can't do it are the ones who have all 18 characters maxed out in every skill line. This means they can all wield every weapon as well. There's probably very few people excluded and those people probably don't need an exp scroll anyway. They have alternate tasks so everyone can finish the pursuit.

The max character slots are at 20 now...

And if someone has 20 characters with all skill lines maxed... congrats.

I'm thinking with subclassing you can get this in about ten minutes or less running the dolman circuit in the desert. I'm going to find out. I've been putting off getting some of the lesser used lines.

Vonnegut2506 · March 3

The ESO forums: just when you think players can't find something even more insignificant to complain about, you log in and realize players will find a way.

spartaxoxo · March 4

virtus753 wrote: »

I outlined above some alternatives that would have been inclusive of everyone full stop and would have helped assuage concerns about furthering a sense of exclusion while not responding to prior feedback. I didn't suggest doing a trial. I suggested things that are very easy for any character, even for day one players.

I'm not saying you suggested a trial. I am saying things like do a trial are a common goal of the pursuits. And they are exclusionary to new players. The devs try to make each pursuit something that everyone can get done, and also make sure each pursuit is different. That means that they need a variety of tasks for every different type of player.

If the list was only something that everyone could do it would basically always be the same handful of tasks every time (like pick a plant) and would exclude PvP, group content, and dlc.

I don't think that would be as fun or as interesting a system as this one. I think it's better with gameplay variety. So rather than trying to make each individual task inclusive, they gave a large enough amount of tasks that we can all skip ones we can't or don't want to do and still get the prize.

I'll agree they could have done without giving it the exp scroll. If that had been a special title or some other exclusive reward, I would be annoyed too.

But I think having the task is inclusive because it ensures there's something for new players too. We all have tasks targeted towards us and can skip stuff we don't like.

Arunei · March 4

virtus753 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's got to be alternatives for new characters.

Do those easily accessible activities need to 1) be exclusionary of part of the player base and also 2) have a specific reward attached to them?

Here's what a couple of alternatives could have looked like:

-Put it behind an extant activity like the Harvesting 25 nodes, which is easily done on any character. Much more easily done for many than the dungeon one or the scribing one, for example.

-I also would have liked to see them include an activity to respec skills or attributes via the UI, which will be available (for free) on Monday. That would have drawn attention to the change and encouraged people to become familiar with the new UI respec. And everyone will be able to do that easily.

They need enough tasks that everyone get all of them and more new players are excluded from being able to do stuff like trials than this would effect. The only people who can't do it are the ones who have all 18 characters maxed out in every skill line. This means they can all wield every weapon as well. There's probably very few people excluded and those people probably don't need an exp scroll anyway. They have alternate tasks so everyone can finish the pursuit.

I outlined above some alternatives that would have been inclusive of everyone full stop and would have helped assuage concerns about furthering a sense of exclusion while not responding to prior feedback. I didn't suggest doing a trial. I suggested things that are very easy for any character, even for day one players.

Arguments that justify the exclusion of people in the minority because they're a minority are very deeply fraught. They also don't take into consideration how others feel watching people defend a choice that makes some feel excluded when it would have been just as easy to be inclusive instead. That's my issue here. I don't see a rational justification for putting a reward being an activity that may exclude over ones that definitely don't when the options are six of one.

Is an xp scroll the end of the world? Of course not. Nothing in this video game is world ending, despite the many storylines. The xp scroll is not the takeaway. It's the sense of community and how inclusive the devs and players are.

I can certainly see how people can look at things from a purely practical perspective and not be concerned. It's fine not to agree. But I look at a lot of these posts and see language that invalidates those who do have concerns and even at times blames players for putting themselves in the potential position of being excluded. And that's concerning too.

The future of the game rests on its community, as the devs acknowledged when they said people only play for the game itself for five months but play for the community for five years. This decision doesn't seem in keeping with that acknowledgment. Keeping players by taking care to make them feel included is important, just like attracting new ones, and this (like the anniversary style pages) seemed like it should have been a very easy win for everyone. I wish they had taken it.

Friend...it's a single Pursuit that you don't even need to do to complete the whole thing. Also doesn't everyone always say not all content is for everyone to complete? What about the people who can't do Vet HM Trials to get Titles because of health issues? What about people who can't do PvP because they don't have the ability to compete with people who have better reaction times and such? There are plenty of things in this game that not everyone can do, this is the most inconsequential thing, but by this logic everyone needs to be able to do everything so it's inclusive and no one has to feel excluded.

So when are Trial or Arena Mounts and Weapons and the like going to be made available for everyone else? There are plenty of things that will also exclude people from doing X or Y. People at max CP? They can't earn CP any more, people who have a full roster of 20 characters? They can't make more unless they get a second account. These are limits you hit in a game if you opt to do it (except getting CP that will come regardless if you're going to be doing anything that earns exp). But to avoid X or Y just because a certain group of players can't do it in and of itself excludes people who can. It'd be like saying we shouldn't have PvP because there are people who can't do it.

And at the end of the day, it's a single task that doesn't prevent anyone from completeing the GP if they can't do it. And all anyone who can't do it is losing out on is an exp scroll. Plus as someone mentioned there's Subclassing; how many people have max leveled EVERY Class Skill Line on EVERY character they own on top of EVERY other Skill Line too? The number is going to be astronomically low. And it IS all right for there to be things that a minority of people can't complete for whatever reason. Because not everything will be something 100% of the people can do 100% of the time. Someone is ALWAYS going to be exluded somehow.

Qyrk · March 4

Ya’ll

The endeavour includes crafting skills too. So I just created it in one character, and deconstruct them on another. Easy….

coop500 · March 4

After the drama of the night market of all the vets belittling everyone just for asking for trash mobs to not be vet trial difficulty, I find it difficult to feel sympathy for people who supposedly have no skillines to level. Where was this call for community to care about accessibility and minority and exclusivity and all that crud in the PTS?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Renato90085 · March 4

This is the 6th or 7th time already.
why you think it never done

Hotdog_23 · March 4

Could care less about the scroll. I just like to complete everything, and being unable to do this is annoying. Just like it was the last few times they did this. Feels like a middle finger to long-term players, but whatever, it's not the first time and will not be the last time.

Stay safe

frogthroat · March 4

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Could care less about the scroll. I just like to complete everything, and being unable to do this is annoying. Just like it was the last few times they did this. Feels like a middle finger to long-term players, but whatever, it's not the first time and will not be the last time.

Stay safe

Oh, right. I forgot about this in my list. Here it is, revised:

1. Although I have (almost) maxed out all skill lines on all characters, I am still a mere CP2300. Not even close to be half way to CP3600, XP-wise.
2. Completionists
3. FOMO
4. People see shiny, people want shiny.
5. This is the most important part: now it's an XP scroll. Next time it could be tristats and we all love tristats.

twisttop138 · March 4

El_Borracho wrote: »

@twisttop138 and @GloatingSwine Don't get me wrong, I love seeing the Trials/Dungeons in the pursuits or endeavors. I was only thinking of when I was a noob if I saw those pop up I wouldn't think they were as attainable as they are

Oh I was joking. I love trials and dungeons, I do them every weeknight but I think it would be unfair to have a pursuit with only those things lol. As much as I'd love it.

CalamityCat · March 4

This is definitely not the first time skill leveling was in a golden pursuit, because I know I've trained my baby templar for this before.

Pursuits always have enough tasks to suit different kinds of players and I appreciate that. If I see something I don't enjoy/can't do, I just do others instead. The only time I didn't complete a pursuit was because the mount was too hideous so I stopped

I think it's much better to have a range of activities instead of doing endless resource collection/crafting/quests or dungeon crawls, because it would be horribly monotonous if the devs played it safe and bland in every GP.

While some players are past training anything, some of us are still enjoying making new alts and trying different builds. This gives those of us who do want to finish a character's training, a little reward for doing that. All my chars have at least one or two weapon lines or craft skills that I didn't fully max out. My newest templar just started training sword n shield. I'm sure there are plenty of players who focus on training what they plan to use first, and don't get around to finishing off crafting or weapon lines. Also, I've seen quite a few new characters while I was dungeon crawling with my templar, so this is a nice thing to include for them too.

AzuraFan · March 4

You can also craft. Create an alt, start crafting, and you'll get 10 ranks pretty quickly.

I did both of these items by using a low level alt to do dolmens. Killed two birds with one stone. It would have gone a lot quicker if I'd had all three dolmens mapped in the zone so I could travel to each one, but I only had one. So I just hung around there, and because lots of people are doing dolmens right now, the dolmen regularly came up. No worse than waiting for a WB to spawn. Didn't take long to tick those items off, along with incursions. In fact, I finished the skill line items before I'd done 8 dolmens.

zenonuk · March 4

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Not the most important thing I know, but I really don't like the precedent you are trying to set ZOS.

This needs correcting, or at the least a guarantee you won't do this again.

It also ties into the planned mini-event starting next week which will see XP boost to skill line levelling - I assume to support new players and those yet to (or still) progressing their subclassed skill lines.

Ishtarknows · March 4

There was one Pursuit where you had to gain levels which excluded people with 20 CP level characters, so there's some precedent.

Gabriel_H · March 4

whitecrow wrote: »

They did do it before, not too long ago. New Life maybe?

It would be bothersome if it was a unique reward, but scrolls are a dime a dozen.

They've never had a sub-reward that required a low level or new character.

Varana · March 4

It doesn't require a new or low-level character.

It requires a character that doesn't have all skill lines maxed.

Players can bore themselves to permadeath with the Psijic skill line if an experience scroll is worth that sacrifice.
Or go murderhobo in the Dark Brotherhood.
Or do Thieves Guild, one of the really good quest lines (padded by annoying dailies).
Or do the main quest.
Or turn one character into a wolf furry or glorified mosquito and get those up to max.
Or bore themselves even more than Psijic (horribile dictu) and level Antiquities.
Or find a crafting skill to level.

If you're at max characters and have done all the guild quests and have levelled all the World skills and have no multiclassing or crafting skills left, and still hunger for that tantalising experience scroll as if it were the best thing since sliced sweetrolls, then... excuse me while I'm slowly backing off.

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I just like to complete everything, and being unable to do this is annoying.

In Golden Pursuits, you can't complete everything anyway. The progress bar stops once you have completed the maximum reward.

spartaxoxo · March 4

Varana wrote: »

In Golden Pursuits, you can't complete everything anyway. The progress bar stops once you have completed the maximum reward.

No. They let you progress the bar without reward for the pursuits.

DenverRalphy · March 4

Varana wrote: »

In Golden Pursuits, you can't complete everything anyway. The progress bar stops once you have completed the maximum reward.

You can still complete and collect any objectives and their rewards even after earning the capstone.

Arunei · March 4

Gabriel_H wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

They did do it before, not too long ago. New Life maybe?

It would be bothersome if it was a unique reward, but scrolls are a dime a dozen.

They've never had a sub-reward that required a low level or new character.

Unless every single one of your characters has every single Skill Line and Class Skill Line via Subclassing at level 50, then no, this doesn't require a new or low-level character at all. And just to put into perspective all the Skill Lines there are:

Class Lines (3 lines per Clsss):
Dragonknight
Sorcerer
Templar
Nightblade
Warden
Necromancer
Arcanist

Armor Lines:
Light Armor
Medium Armor
Heavy Armor

Weapon Lines:
One-Handed
Two-Handed
One Hand and Shield
Dual Wield
Bow
Destruction Staff
Restoration Staff

World Skills:
Soul Magic
Lycanthropy
Vampirism
Legerdemain
Scrying
Excavation

Guild Lines:
Mages Guild
Fighters Guild
Undaunted
Dark Brotherhood
Thieves Guild
Psijic Order

Crafting Lines:
Alchemy
Enchanting
Provisioning
Blacksmithing
Jewley Crafting
Clothing
Woodworking

Alliance War Lines:
Assault
Support

So the ONLY people this task "excludes" are people who have completely leveled to 50 EVERY single Skill Line they have access to on EVERY single character they can own. Even for someone who only has base game Skill Lines, they're only missing access to a small handful of Skill Lines (Warden, Necro, Arcanist, TG, DB, Psijic Order, Scrying, and Excavation). That's still 28 Skill Lines a person can do per character, assuming they haven't unlocked Subclassing as well. The number only goes up for each additional Skill Line someone has access to.

I'm sorry but I just don't see very many people having leveled 28 minimum Skill Lines on 8 characters minimum. The number of people this task locks out is likely smaller than the one that required people to earn Levels several months ago did.

Rkindaleft · March 4

Even outside of classes there's like 30 available skill lines in the game. Once you add the skill lines from the classes, there's 50+ skill lines...

The amount of players who have 20 characters, and then have leveled all those 50+ skill lines to max on every single one of those characters (granted you only need to level the Subclass lines once) would be such a ridiculously small number, and if they did, I doubt they care about not getting one XP scroll. I don't think there's anything to complain about here.

Faltasë · 1:22AM

Y'all complain about the most useless non-issues I've ever seen on this forum while ignoring literally anything else that would make more sense to complain about.

frogthroat · 7:49AM

Rkindaleft wrote: »

The amount of players who have 20 characters,

Yes?

Rkindaleft wrote: »

and then have leveled all those 50+ skill lines

Yees?

Rkindaleft wrote: »

to max on every single one of those characters

Just finishing the last ones, so not every single one... yet.

Rkindaleft wrote: »

(granted you only need to level the Subclass lines once)

Indeed.

Rkindaleft wrote: »

would be such a ridiculously small number,

Wait, what? I can't be unique in this. Don't everyone do this?

polly_saccharine · 7:53AM

I believe this one is there because of the mini 100% XP skill line event coming for people to level DK's after Update 49..?

So getting a 100% scroll once done is actually an equal bonus to the 100% XP skill level bonus for the event.

Treeshka · 8:15AM

I have 7 characters. All of them has all the possible skill lines are fully levelled up. Like literally everything you can find in the skills menu all the way to the both morphs. Including Werewolf and Vampire. This task auto completes for me.

spartaxoxo · 8:32AM

Treeshka wrote: »

I have 7 characters. All of them has all the possible skill lines are fully levelled up. Like literally everything you can find in the skills menu all the way to the both morphs. Including Werewolf and Vampire. This task auto completes for me.

What about all of the weapons?

frogthroat · 10:42AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

I have 7 characters. All of them has all the possible skill lines are fully levelled up. Like literally everything you can find in the skills menu all the way to the both morphs. Including Werewolf and Vampire. This task auto completes for me.

What about all of the weapons?

That's not that big of a thing to level.

For me the last ones will be WW, Scrying/Excavation and Enchanting. Scrying is incredibly boring, but I want those shiny chests. Enchanting I only level when the character picks up a glyph. So I am not going out of my way to level it, and therefore not all my characters have that 50. And didn't like WW so I have done that only once. But when the WW bite change comes, I will probably level WW on all characters.

BradTheNord · 2:48PM

El_Borracho wrote: »

This one seems to be around all the time. You got to throw a bone to the new players with these things, especially since there are way more options than are required. Imagine if all of the Golden Pursuits were "Do 10 Trials," or "Do 10 Group Dungeons," or the dreaded "Do One Tales of Tribute Match"

If it’s one thing they do enough of is throwing a bone to new players….

Arunei · 6:19PM

This task ISN'T just for new players tho. I've been playing since closed beta and I don't have nearly every possible Skill Line leveled to 50 on ONE character, let alone all 20 of them. The simple fact is MOST players aren't going to bother leveling Skill Lines that don't apply to their characters, just like most people haven't hit CP3600 or gotten every single achievement. Yes, there are people who have, but expecting a task not to be added for something just because a smaller number of people have done a certain thing makes no sense to me.

And again, it would be a different matter if this was a unique reward like a Pet or Mount or something tied to that particular task, but...it's an exp scroll. Things we've been getting dumped onto us every month for years. Like I said before, if everything in this game is meant to be inclusive and something everyone can do, then I can't wait for all content in the game to become as easy as current Overland and for there to be a setting for PvP where I can't die and for all the ToT stuff to be unlocked after winning a single easy game against an NPC and...well you get the idea.