What will the class refresh for nightblades most likely look like based on current weaknesses?

Faltasë · March 1

I definitely think this stuff needs to be addressed. But at the same time, I understand the concerns about how useless the sneak/stealth parts of the class are but I feel I'd rather we keep them in the class. Keep shadow cloaks invisibility please for the love of Lorkhan.

It's super easy to just make buffs or give utility without removing their stealth identity. They're called Nightblade not damageblade.

Vulkunne · March 1

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Ahhh. That's why. PvP ...
@Vulkunne Sorry, but if you make general statement and only mean a specific sub sections of this game, that is of minor importance, you are unintentionally misleading.
If you had started with: "Actually, I think NB is in a pretty good place as it exists today, in PVP.", we could've spared ourselves a misunderstanding. 😊

But this is a crucial point, nonetheless. What about the impact on PvP, when Nightblades are more balanced and Assassination is more of an option and less of a necessity? Will gankblades survive? Will invisibility be an option or a meme? And most importantly (to me), what about ranged playstyles?

I don't really care for improvements in animation, as long as the math sticks.

I sincerely hope and will allow some confidence that ZOS takes this seriously, but not too seriously and wish them the best in this task, which admittedly isn't going to be easy. Which makes me question why it's necessary in the first place.

Major_Toughness · March 2

In my opinion which I will expand on below

Unforgiving PvE rotation which even when done at a high level in single target is behind most other classes
Lackluster AoE damage (Twisting Path, Shade, Power Extraction/Sap Essence)
Little to no access to DoTs/Pressure (add Crippling/Debilitation to those above)
Dark Cloak was hung, drawn, quartered, incinerated then urinated on.
Shadow Ultimate might be the worst in the entire game, has been for 5+ years and received no changes.
Mark Target costs 3.4k magicka and does NOTHING but provide Breach, compared to Elemental Susceptibility which is FREE

NB has a lot of good utility skills but they take up a lot of bar space and (especially in PvP) force the class into this single target high burst play style which it doesn't even excel at.

In PvE NB has mainly single target skills which makes them really bad in almost every Trial released in the past 5 years. You have to use more Weapon and Guild skills than class skills.

Even in Single Target parameters, NB has the highest skill ceiling, basing your rotation around most effectiveness during Incap damage boost window, whilst still being way far down the pecking order. You can play pretty much any other class and do better with similar or less skill requirement.

In regards to PvP, NB was made very strong on paper with relatively recent buffs to Refreshing Path, Power Extraction, Suprise Attack/Concealed Weapon, and (albeit my most hated change) 10 stacks for Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve.

That said the biggest buff they received was scribing. NB was the only class pre-Arcanist that had no delayed burst, which meant it relied on a very predictable but hard hitting combo of Ultimate and Bow proc. Which by themselves hit hard, are not enough to kill skilled players. Then came Contingency. A delayed burst you can add to your already high burst potential making even a blocked combo do deadly damage but also only makes the combo more predictable.

Still has no access to good DoTs or AoEs, as well as having so many good, and almost necessary buffs to run, you have no space for them.
Phantasmal is great, but it's mainly use if root removal which Race Against Time, Birds of Pray, new DK wings, all do too but with better benefits.

Dark Cloak was nerfed so much it is unusable outside of PvE tanking on suboptimal builds with too much health.
Shadow Cloak is still good, personally I dislike the toggle change but maybe I'm stuck in my ways.

Also while dueling isn't a great metric, out of all the pure classes NB is the weakest. The high single target damage class can't out damage, or survive against any other class. Duels are mostly about builds so it's all relative, but it's a sad state for a class that has been pigeon-holed into this archetype and it's not even good at it.

cuddles_with_wroble · March 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Ahhh. That's why. PvP ...
@Vulkunne Sorry, but if you make general statement and only mean a specific sub sections of this game, that is of minor importance, you are unintentionally misleading.
If you had started with: "Actually, I think NB is in a pretty good place as it exists today, in PVP.", we could've spared ourselves a misunderstanding. 😊

But this is a crucial point, nonetheless. What about the impact on PvP, when Nightblades are more balanced and Assassination is more of an option and less of a necessity? Will gankblades survive? Will invisibility be an option or a meme? And most importantly (to me), what about ranged playstyles?

I don't really care for improvements in animation, as long as the math sticks.

Now you see the main problem with most classes, night blade is very strong if not too strong in pvp but worthless in pve

Zodiarkslayer · March 2

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Now you see the main problem with most classes, night blade is very strong if not too strong in pvp but worthless in pve

Yup. Absolutely agree. I have been voicing my criticism of this for years. And the only solution is to separate PvE and PvP. Well, in my opinion at least.

cuddles_with_wroble · March 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Now you see the main problem with most classes, night blade is very strong if not too strong in pvp but worthless in pve

Yup. Absolutely agree. I have been voicing my criticism of this for years. And the only solution is to separate PvE and PvP. Well, in my opinion at least.

Agree, I’ve suggested before that they use the battle spirit modifiers to limit the scaling ans effects of skills in pvp.

Vulkunne · March 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Ahhh. That's why. PvP ...
@Vulkunne Sorry, but if you make general statement and only mean a specific sub section of this game, that is of minor importance, you are unintentionally misleading.
If you had started with: "Actually, I think NB is in a pretty good place as it exists today, in PVP.", we could've spared ourselves a misunderstanding. 😊

But this is a crucial point, nonetheless. What about the impact on PvP, when Nightblades are more balanced and Assassination is more of an option and less of a necessity? Will gankblades survive? Will invisibility be an option or a meme? And most importantly (to me), what about ranged playstyles?

I don't really care for improvements in animation, as long as the math sticks.

All of these are good points, and it is my hope this will be a slow and progressive process so there is less overhead to get patched later.

joshisanonymous · March 2

Decimus wrote: »

The stealth element.

Basically not used at all in PvE and sees very little use in PvP as well after subclassing. It'd be nice to see Shadow and Siphoning become a bit more useful skill lines contrast to Assassination, as well as more skills that either utilize or provide stealth.

Example: they could make the Born from Shadow buff universal for Stealth and add something like 1s invisibility for using Ambush/Lotus Fan... And make more NB abilities do something special when coming out of invisibility (similar to Concealed Weapon, which gains +10% damage). This way you're making the class play somewhat different from the other ones and bring back some class identity.

I kinda don't think "leave the OP line as-is and make the other lines stronger too" is what ZoS means when they say they're going to revise the classes. They explicitly said that the point is to make pure classes just as viable as subclassed builds. I would sooner expect them to shift passives from assassination to the other lines than to do the sort of stuff you're saying.

That said, I do wish cloak was more effective. I just can't bring myself to get rid of it since it's so tied up in the class identity for me, but it's just not useful for a whole lot.