frogthroat wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

"frogthroat, to answer your question directly: Yes. If an add-on performs multiple server-side actions without a manual button press, I am against it. Whether it is 10 actions or 60, the principle remains the same.

Now you are contradicting yourself. You were ok with LWC. Now you are against it?

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

You are looking for a 'middle ground'

No. You are substituting human intuition with a clanker. Clankers don't understand sarcasm or reductio ad absurdum. Tell your human to read the responses before clicking post.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Experience vs. Shortcuts: You say you’d rather 'spend time playing the game' than scrolling menus. I have 48,000 hours in this game. I have earned everything I have by actually interacting with the game's systems manually.

What a horrible outlook.

I have spent a lot of time doing manual stuff that should have been automated by ZOS and if there is an addon for it so that newer players don't have to do the same I am glad.

There are two types of people: those who had troubles and want that others have the same troubles. And people like me who had troubles and now hope that no one else has to go through the same.

You have done tedious tasks yourself so you want others to do tedious tasks?

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

If a mechanic like crafting or gear swapping is 'tedious,' that is a balance issue for ZOS to fix officially—not for a third-party script to bypass.

That is literally what addons are for. To give better info, more customisation, remove tedious, repetitive tasks, etc.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

My answer hasn't changed:

Yes it did. Now you are against LWC. Previously you weren't. You are as firm in your opinion as a weather vane.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

I’m here to point out that the Automation Crisis

What crisis? Is the crisis in the room with us right now?

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

eroded the mechanical gap between a prepared veteran and a player using a script.

What gap?! WW speeds up swapping your setup, that's it. The only thing where it may give advantage over other players is in the top point one percentile of scorepushing where every second counts. And if you are serious about scorepushing, you will be using any and all tools available to you. If not, tough luck.

Otherwise it just lets you get back to playing slightly faster.

"frogthroat, I don’t want other players to have 'troubles'; I want them to actually play the game.

Playing vs. Automating: There is a fundamental difference between a quality-of-life UI tweak and a script that handles execution for you. I didn't invest 48,000 hours and a decade of financial support into this game to watch it play itself. If you find the core mechanics of the game 'tedious,' then you aren't looking for a better game experience—you’re looking for a script to remove the 'game' part of the RPG.

The Consistency of Principles: You call me a 'weather vane,' but my stance has been the same since the start: One-Action Rule. If an add-on (including LWC) bypasses manual player input to perform multiple server-side actions, it violates the spirit of fair play. I am consistent in my belief that the Add-on Terms should be enforced across the board, even if it means losing 'convenient' automation.

Integrity Over Ease: You say you hope no one has to go through the 'trouble' of manual tasks. In a competitive environment, those 'tasks'—preparation, fast menu navigation, and build knowledge—are what separate a veteran from a novice. When you use a script like WW to close that gap, you aren't 'getting back to playing faster'; you are letting a tool handle the skill-based portion of your preparation.

ZOS created the Armory System to provide a balanced way to manage builds. Choosing to ignore that official system in favor of an automated script isn't 'improving' the game—it’s choosing to let the game be played for you. I prefer to be the one behind the 19 Emperor titles, not a clanker."

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

The Responsibility Gap: If a mechanic is 'tedious,' ZOS has a responsibility to fix it for everyone—including the millions of players on Xbox and PlayStation who don't have access to third-party automation. By allowing PC players to bypass these mechanics with scripts, ZOS is creating a fundamental imbalance in the game's integrity.

Would you be fine with this if console addons were at parity with PC addons for these functions?

NO I WOULDNT

How do I block or ignore people on these forums?

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/profile/ignore

Can only block 12 people…

Thank you!

Ok, now you are just repeating yourself.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

In a competitive environment, those 'tasks'—preparation, fast menu navigation, and build knowledge—are what separate a veteran from a novice. When you use a script like WW to close that gap, you aren't 'getting back to playing faster'; you are letting a tool handle the skill-based portion of your preparation.

Just ask speedrun dot com to add a menu navigation category if navigating menus is so important part of your gameplay.

For you the skill to navigate menus can be a great source of pride. Like your gameplay hours and ... how many emperor titles you had again? I forgot. You haven't mentioned that for at least 19 seconds.

But what exactly do I gain over you when I use WW and you don't? What do you lose when I don't spend time in menus? Absolutely nothing. Good for you that you have learned to be fast in menus. You still have to do the same mechanics at the boss than I do. Neither of us has any advantage over each other - the only thing that matters is our skill. (And how we make our builds.)

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

ZOS created the Armory System to provide a balanced way to manage builds. Choosing to ignore that official system in favor of an automated script isn't 'improving' the game—it’s choosing to let the game be played for you.

You can do more with armory than with WW. This here demonstrates that you have no clue what WW even is.

What I would consider a worse offence than using WW is using armory in the middle of a dungeon. For example, you can go in as a vampire, use simmering frenzy all the way, but then switch to a completely different build without vampirism for the fire boss. Takes, what, 2 seconds to swap an armory build? Hardly any difference. And with simmering frenzy you burn through everything and save much more than those 2 seconds you lose in armory. And for this you need to use the armory assistant that costs real life money - so it could be considered a pay-to-win function.

...but I still like that some people use the armory to their advantage. I don't, not really, but those who do, good for them.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

I prefer to be the one behind the 19 Emperor titles, not a clanker."

You keep telling us this. How is your 19 emperor titles in any way, shape or form related to this conversation?

Anyway, your clanker lacks nuance and is repeating itself. I'm off to speak with humans. See ya.

I have 20 emperor titles, and I'm here to say that wizards helps my friends with disabilities play the game. They cannot interact with the base game interface as easily as the average person heimdall is implying everyone is. They have serious hand conditions and wizards prevents repetitive actions like scrolling to an item and pressing equip 200 times.

Addons are accessibility tools, if you are claiming that your AI use is for accessibility then you should not have any issues with other players with disabilities using addons to simplify repetitive actions which can trigger pain.

In scored, leaderboard content, does your time factor into your overall score? Yes?

How long would it take to fish through your entire inventory each encounter without Wizard’s Wardrobe? Roughly 1-2 minutes each encounter?

So an Add-On is shaving off 5-10 minutes for you in a score run?

Like it or not, @heimdall14_9 has a point with Wizard’s Wardrobe, that said I do not agree with auto-recharge or repair being a problem, as you should neither need to recharge or repair your whole run if you’re doing a leaderboard push with full values.

Radiate77 wrote: »

I also want to point out that a solution does not need to be zero sum.

We don’t need to obliterate an add-on to acknowledge that it should not exist in a Scored setting.

"Radiate77, I completely agree that this doesn't have to be a 'zero-sum' game.

My goal isn't to see Wizard's Wardrobe obliterated; it is to see it brought into compliance with the same One-Action Rule that every other legitimate add-on follows.

The Fix is Simple: If the automation triggers were removed and replaced with a manual UI—where the player has to intentionally click to commit to a build change—the 'Automation Crisis' would be solved. It would turn a gameplay script back into a User Interface tool.

Acknowledging the Advantage: You hit the nail on the head regarding scored content. When an add-on shaves 5–10 minutes off a run by automating 60+ actions per encounter, it isn't 'Quality of Life' anymore. It is a mechanical bypass of the game's intended friction.

Integrity, Not Destruction: I have 48,000 hours in this game because I love the game ZOS built. I use accessibility tools like AI and Speech-to-Text to communicate, but I still believe the combat should be handled by the human, not the script.

I’m not asking ZOS to delete the work developers put into these add-ons. I’m asking ZOS to enforce their Code of Conduct so that 'skill' in ESO is once again defined by player execution, not by who has the most efficient automation script."

48.000 hours are 5,4 years if you play 24 hours a day, or 8,2 years if you play 16 hours a day.
I guess the number is somehow shared between the 16 accounts and you multiboxed them (without using 3rd party tools of course... ethics, integrity, right way to play and everything).

Anyways, what I find fascinating is how obsessively you're talking about WW. I mean... why WW? What has this AddOn done that stands out so much that it even earned a place in your signature?
I've been in a number of progress groups over the years and there are AddOns that have FAR more impact on the game than WW does. And by far more, I mean FAR MORE!
Why aren't you talking about Code's Combat Alerts? Or Elms Markers? Or Hodor? Or one of the "how to [insert raid here]"?

If you think there's a massive ethical problem in using an addon that bypasses a lot of menus...that is probably more of a problem than anything else. It's a game It's not some Geneva Code breaking matter.

You claim to have issues with typing because of disability, so you use AI and that's fine and dandy. Many people playing have issues with their hands and have actual pain and such they deal with, yet an addon that can help them avoid that pain so they can play more is bad and evil and ethically wrong? That smells like hypocrisy.

You're also being incredibly disingenuous here. There's absolutely NO WAY you thought Lazy Writ only did "one action for one interaction". You interact with a Writ board and it grabs all of them for you with that one click, that's more than "one action for one interaction", same with then interacting with each Crafting Station. Yet you only went back on the claims of it being fine when someone pointed out the cintradiction that Lazy Writ does far more than just the "one action for one interaction".

Also your remark about wanting people to "play the game" contradicts your whole argument. Spending ages fiddling in menus isn't playing the game. Interacting with the game world IS playing the game. Why are you so obsessed with whether people spend numerous minutes in menus or not? You're so hung up on what other people might be doing when it's not something that impacts your game, your hours played, your Titles gained, and so on. You'd be better off putting this energy to your own game and not being so worried about how others are playing theirs.

BananaBender wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Wizard's Wardrobe should be a base game feature, but I don't think ZoS wants to spend time developing a feature which already exists and is widely used.

"BananaBender, ZOS did develop this feature—it’s called the Armory.

The reason the Armory doesn't function like Wizard's Wardrobe isn't because ZOS 'ran out of time'; it’s because they intentionally designed it to require manual player input and out-of-combat restrictions to maintain game balance. When a third-party add-on removes those restrictions and automates 60+ actions, it isn't a 'feature'—it’s a bypass of the game's core mechanics. Relying on an automated script because the base game requires 'manual effort' is the definition of an exploit, not a quality-of-life improvement."

Armory doesn't work the same way, nor does it do the same things Wizard's Wardrobe does.
Wizard's Wardrobe doesn't remove out-of-combat those restrictions as has already been pointed out.

I don't know why you are so stuck on the fact that WW can change gear based on your location like that is such a big problem. It's not used in scorepushing, it's used by people who often forget to change their setup and is purely a QoL feature, not a tool to make the trial go any quicker.

saying Wizard's Wardrobe isn't used in score-pushing is factually incorrect. High-end PC trial guilds and score-pushers have openly credited this add-on as the reason they can achieve the 'monster scores' they get.

I never said WW wasn't used in scorepushing, the automatic gear swap is not used in scorepushing.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

The 'Strategic Revolution': Competitive players don't use WW just to 'not forget' their gear; they use it to optimize every single pull. In score runs, teams use WW to swap between specialized trash-clearing builds (with passives like Occult Overload) and boss-specific builds instantly. This 'trash-to-boss' automation is a known strategy for high score pushes.

Switching your build between fights if of course a used strategy, but everyone is using keybinds and not the auto swap feature. (Absolutely nobody is using Occult Overload in scorepushing)

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

The Armory is Intentionally Restricted: You say WW doesn't remove out-of-combat restrictions, but it absolutely bypasses the Armory's limitations. ZOS explicitly bars the Armory Assistant from vet trials and leaderboard content once the timer starts. WW gives PC players an 'infinite armory' that works inside those restricted zones, while console players are forced to play the game as ZOS designed it—manually.

It doesn't have the same limitations as the Armory, since it's not the Armory. You can't change the morph of your skills, your subclasses, your curses, your attribute points or CPs you haven't unlocked, unlike the Armory can. WW can only do what the player can already to themselves, change gear, skills and unlocked CPs.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Automation vs. Quality of Life: A 'Quality of Life' feature helps you see your inventory better. A 'Strategic Script' senses the boss and auto-slots specific skills and gear for that exact encounter. When an add-on is described by the community as a 'game-changer for combat' that allows for instant adaptation mid-trial, it is no longer just 'convenience'—it is a mechanical advantage.

Again, the automatic feature is rarely used and more of a hinderance than advantage.
And again, I think the feature should be base game not just an addon. It makes the game much more enjoyable and makes the gear system in this game actually functional.

"BananaBender, your argument actually confirms exactly what I’m saying.

Keybinds are still Automation: You claim 'nobody uses auto-swap,' but then admit everyone uses keybinds to swap builds. Whether the script is triggered by a location or by a single keypress, if that one press executes 60+ server-side actions (swapping gear, skills, and CP simultaneously), it is still a macro that violates the One-Action Rule. On console, we have to manually click every single piece of gear. That is the mechanical gap.

Bypassing Intentional Restrictions: You say it’s 'not the Armory,' but the Armory Assistant is restricted in trials for a reason. ZOS doesn't want players instantly reconfiguring their power levels mid-run once the timer starts. By using WW to swap CP and gear—even if it doesn't change your 'curse' or 'attributes'—you are still bypassing the intentional friction ZOS built into the game's high-end content.

The 'Occult Overload' Point: You claim nobody uses it in score-pushing, but the broader point remains: WW allows for instant adaptation to trash pulls versus boss fights. If it was truly a 'hindrance' as you claim, high-end guilds wouldn't have made it a staple of the PC meta for years.

Base Game vs. Script: You said you think this should be a base game feature. I agree. If ZOS wants to allow instant 60-action swaps, they should build it into the Official UI for everyone, including console. But until they do, using a third-party script to do what the base game forbids is the definition of an exploit.

I’m not 'misunderstanding' the tool; I am looking at the Add-on Terms. If the game requires 60 clicks to change a build, and you’re doing it in one keybind, you aren't just 'playing faster'—you're letting a script handle the execution."

What was your suspension for?

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

If you think there's a massive ethical problem in using an addon that bypasses a lot of menus...that is probably more of a problem than anything else. It's a game It's not some Geneva Code breaking matter.

You claim to have issues with typing because of disability, so you use AI and that's fine and dandy. Many people playing have issues with their hands and have actual pain and such they deal with, yet an addon that can help them avoid that pain so they can play more is bad and evil and ethically wrong? That smells like hypocrisy.

You're also being incredibly disingenuous here. There's absolutely NO WAY you thought Lazy Writ only did "one action for one interaction". You interact with a Writ board and it grabs all of them for you with that one click, that's more than "one action for one interaction", same with then interacting with each Crafting Station. Yet you only went back on the claims of it being fine when someone pointed out the cintradiction that Lazy Writ does far more than just the "one action for one interaction".

Also your remark about wanting people to "play the game" contradicts your whole argument. Spending ages fiddling in menus isn't playing the game. Interacting with the game world IS playing the game. Why are you so obsessed with whether people spend numerous minutes in menus or not? You're so hung up on what other people might be doing when it's not something that impacts your game, your hours played, your Titles gained, and so on. You'd be better off putting this energy to your own game and not being so worried about how others are playing theirs.

"Arunei, since you want to talk about hypocrisy and 'disability,' let’s address the reality of my situation.

Communication vs. Automation: My use of AI isn't because my 'hands hurt.' I use AI because of a work accident that knocked me unconscious for over 45 minutes and wiped away 36 years of my life. I had to re-learn how to do everything. I use these tools because my brain gets off track, and I am limited in getting my thoughts into text. Using a tool to help me speak is not the same as using a script to play a game for me.

The 'Writ' Distraction: You claim I’m being disingenuous about Lazy Writ Crafter. My point remains: if an add-on violates the One-Action Rule, it should be addressed. I’m not 'backtracking'; I’m being consistent. If a script automates 60+ actions while you stand still, it is an exploit—whether it's at a crafting station or a boss door.

Why I 'Care': You ask why I’m 'obsessed' with how others play. I care because I have spent 48,000 hours (33k on console, 10k on PC) playing the game ZOS actually built. I care because when the community relies on scripts to bypass the Armory or manual preparation, the integrity of the leaderboards and the game's mechanics are eroded.

I’m not 'fiddling in menus'; I am engaging with the RPG systems ZOS designed. I didn't fight to get my life and my brain back just to sit back and watch a script play a game for me. If you want a game that plays itself, that’s your choice—but don’t call it 'hypocrisy' when I advocate for the rules in the Code of Conduct."

See, you're acting like "just hurts" is like a minor ache or something. You're being disingenuous again. There are people who can only play for short amounts of time because of actual debilitating pain. Unless you absolutely cannot communicate without AI, then it only serves as a tool to make things easier and faster for you. Kind of like addons! And for the record using ANY kind of tool to help with communication is fine. My point is convenience over necessity.

If you were being consistent you'd never have claimed Lazy Writ is fine to start with because again, there's no way you genuinely thought it was "one action for one interaction" until it was pointed out it isn't.

You're ignoring that this addon you hate so much requires being set up, which is...oh, MANUAL PREPARATION! And there's the fact that people will change their setups and then those setups in the addon need to be updated. Also you mention the Armory and apparently that's okay even though it saves and lets yoi swap between various setups with like two inputs? If you hate WW so much then you should be against the Armory too, because it bypasses all that stuff you're so adamant on everyone needing to do. Aka spend time in menus.

You keep bringing up how much time you've got in the game and everything. I don't mean to be rude when I say this but no one cares, because it's not relevant to the conversation. How long you've played and all the Titles you habe don't mean anything in the general sense of "does this thing break ZOS' rules about automation or not".

No integrity about mechanics is being eroded, what? The Armory does the SAME THING you're so upset over WW doing, so why aren't you upset about the "integrity" being eroded by that? The only thing I can agree with here is that nothing like that should be able to be used for leaderboard pushes.

Also, my guy, menus are not playing the game. They're what you have to navigate to PLAY the game. Yes, it IS fiddling with menus, I genuinely don't get what gameplay there is in menus that you seem so upset others are skipping. You know when it would be considered an addon playing the game for you? When it DOES ACTUAL CONTENT, like progressing quests by auto running you to goals, when it pushes the buttons and does the inputs to kill enemies, when it interacts with NPCs and selects the right dialog options for you. THAT'S something playing the game for you, not navigating menus.

It's not performing combat actions. Full stop. Having combat actions automated is against the tos of the game and any addon that does it is removed and those using it are sometimes banned.

But I'm digging what you're saying. PC has addon capabilities that console doesn't. This is unjust. We need full parity with PC so that when crossplay goes live, no one is at a disadvantage. Thank you for bringing this to light.

Joygasm84

27 times seeing the empire strikes back/ Secret decoder ring owner/Non WW user but you convinced me. I just downloaded it.

Hello, I currently maintain WW. Not going to enter the debate, but I will clarify something:

Manual setup swapping is greatly favoured over the automatic setting among top endgame groups and players because it is faster and less error prone. If a boss resets or wipes, depending on the information the game provides at that moment, WW may read false positives and automatically equip to a setup that the player doesn't want, and have to stop the group to manually fix it. Which usually leads to their group telling them to turn off auto setups.

Auto setups was enabled by default by a previous WW developer when it was implemented. There are possible steps to improve detection, but it will likely never be completely reliable. As part of a future rework I plan to touch the settings and defaults, and auto setups is one that will be disabled by default but remain as an accessibility option.

Side note: reading through this thread of inflated, overly lengthy, reiterating AI messages is a rather unenjoyable experience.