SeaGtGruff wrote: »

For me, the simplest solution to avoid getting the spammed invites was to join a fifth guild so I don't have an open guild slot. This was after repeatedly joining their various guilds and getting kicked for failing to meet their mandatory requirements. But I think it would be much better if there were a user setting to automatically decline guild invites.

I do wonder why they need to spam unsolicited invites in the first place. If it's to keep their guild membership numbers up due to high turnaround, then it's curious why they would create such a high turnaround in the first place, given that (based on my own experiences) the guild itself is kicking members for some reason or other-- in my multiple cases, for failing to join their mandated Discord server, then (on subsequent occasions, after joining their Discord server) for failing to post often enough in specific channels of their Discord server. It wasn't as though I'd done something wrong in the game-- it was all about Discord. So I find myself wondering whether they're getting something out of Discord that's based on their number of Discord users or something like that. Note that being kicked from their guilds in the game didn't remove me from their Discord server, so it seems like the whole thing is aimed at inflating the number of Discord users who have joined their Discord server.

It's because if you don't engage with them, they can't influence you, and the whole MLM falls apart. They want it on Discord, not in-game, for obvious reasons.

People have been telling ZOS about this both here and on Reddit and in reports for years and years and years now.

ZOS, when THIS many people who play your game tell you something shady is going on that you need to look into... believe them.

Chance_25 wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

1) Members of my guild have REPEATEDLY joined your guilds and said in Guild Chat "PLEASE I BEG YOU STOP INVITING ME" and they continue to receive invites, constantly, from all 5 versions of your guild. This happened even Sunday night when the spamming was happening.

I personally did this on several occasions, even saying repeatedly in your guild chat "PLEASE STOP INVITING, PLEASE STOP INVITING" and within 5 minutes I received additional invites. So not only is your add-on acting in bad faith, so are you in this thread and in your communication to this community.

Currently, we log guild chat and mirror the chat log file to our Discord server in real time.

In response to feedback being shared in this thread, I have implemented an additional listener that detects keywords such as "stop" in the guild chat and pings officers in Discord almost immediately. From there, the officers will review the chat message to see if it is a player requesting for the invites to stop, and if it is, they will be added to the "no invite list" I mentioned prior. This list prevents future invites across all guilds for all staff members that are using any of our staff tools.

We believe the behavior demonstrated above that allowed a player to receive more than one invite has been identified and addressed already. However, use of staff recruitment tools will remain paused while we continue testing to make certain that it cannot reoccur.

Repeated invites after a decline are not acceptable. If they occur, that indicates a failure in our tools, and we need to address it.

Or you know, just post your guilds in guild finder (the very thing it's made for ya know.) Stop cold inviting people. It's like spam calls on a phone, annoying.

Chance_25 wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

1) Members of my guild have REPEATEDLY joined your guilds and said in Guild Chat "PLEASE I BEG YOU STOP INVITING ME" and they continue to receive invites, constantly, from all 5 versions of your guild. This happened even Sunday night when the spamming was happening.

I personally did this on several occasions, even saying repeatedly in your guild chat "PLEASE STOP INVITING, PLEASE STOP INVITING" and within 5 minutes I received additional invites. So not only is your add-on acting in bad faith, so are you in this thread and in your communication to this community.

Currently, we log guild chat and mirror the chat log file to our Discord server in real time.

In response to feedback being shared in this thread, I have implemented an additional listener that detects keywords such as "stop" in the guild chat and pings officers in Discord almost immediately. From there, the officers will review the chat message to see if it is a player requesting for the invites to stop, and if it is, they will be added to the "no invite list" I mentioned prior. This list prevents future invites across all guilds for all staff members that are using any of our staff tools.

We believe the behavior demonstrated above that allowed a player to receive more than one invite has been identified and addressed already. However, use of staff recruitment tools will remain paused while we continue testing to make certain that it cannot reoccur.

Repeated invites after a decline are not acceptable. If they occur, that indicates a failure in our tools, and we need to address it.

Saying that you log your guild chat and mirror the chat log file to discord implies that you have an account that is a bot and is always logged into ESO at all hours and when the servers go down rejoins as soon as their are back up. Is this true?

Further it doesn't make sense that you would monitor the guild chat for this in the first place since people would have to accept the guild invite and not decline it. I would think it would be far more likely the person would whisper the account which invited them and tell them to stop inviting them. The "stop" would most likely happen in whispers, say, or zone chat not guild chat.

The fact that you claim to have a process for what to do when someone says "stop" in guild chat and that process specifically pertains to someone receiving spam invites means that it is a significant problem. As someone who has been an officer in multiple guilds in ESO over the years I have never seen this issue pop up nor did any of those guilds have a process for this. I find it odd your guild does.

Nothing. I know the guild just from seeing ppl complain on Reddit. It’s apparently very toxic to be in.

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

Chance_25 wrote: »

Hi, everyone. I am the GM.

The player in the screenshot is not a bot. At the time of the screenshot, he was actively having a conversation with guild members. It is a player that can be online more than most of us, but high availability on the game doesn't mean someone is a bot.

We forbid staff members the use of automation. When staff asks, "how do you do it?" our response is "You don't. Don't even try." We allow ESO’s native addon system, but explicitly forbid external automation, scripts, or macros. Anyone choosing to do that would be acting against leadership direction and internal staff rules.

We have not received disciplinary actions related to the recruitment methods discussed here. Changes in the accounts doing the recruitment reflect different staff members recruiting, not replacement of accounts. There is no "ban evading" going on.

That said, the fact that a player above was able to get multiple invites is unacceptable. Within about a minute of me seeing that post, I directed the guild staff to cease use of the addon so we can figure out how that was able to occur and ensure it cannot continue.
I recognize I said this in a prior thread. When we later allowed the addon to resume use, we believed the ability for duplicate invites to have been fixed. It's clear further adjustment is needed, and I apologize for any annoyance that has been made during the time.

Our standard for invites is:
One invite -> Okay.
Two invites -> Not okay.
Invites after someone requests them to stop -> Absolutely not okay.
We have previously removed staff from our team for failing to respect this, and we will continue to enforce it.

Some background on the way that the addon works:
The addon creates a GUI that displays the target's name, when they were last invited, and a hotkey to invite them to the guild.
It has multiple internal safeguards to prevent spamming and repeated invites such as:

• Cooldowns after each invite for the sender.
• Cooldowns after each invite for the guild being recruited for.
• Checks for prior invites - Anyone that has had a past invite should be getting blocked from future invites, and all guilds share one database.
• Lifetime limits on how many times an account can receive an invite, including manual invites, with all guilds sharing one database.
• Respect for a "No Invite List", a list that staff members can manually add players to.
• Respect for the in-game guild Blacklist, which will stop invites from being sent to a player.

On top of this, when a member verbally refuses or asks to stop getting invites - invites need to stop. If they continue beyond that point, it's absolutely not okay.
Lastly, we have multiple restrictions on staff members attempting to recruit to further mitigate risk of player annoyance.




All of this said, repeated invites, especially after a request for them to stop, is unacceptable.
If a player isn't interested, they need to be left alone.
And for the record, I do agree a native "auto decline" option is a good idea.

Or...and hear me out...maybe don't build/use an addon that exists only to spam invites? There's no difference whether you are spamming one individual with many invites, or spamming many individuals with one invite. It's still spam and still against TOS.

You're not a bystander in this. You have the ability to put a stop to it once and for all, and you're specifically choosing not to.

Doubt he cares unfortunately. He seemingly just gets a slap on the wrists for it and retreats for a week or two and then comes back. Man has made his choice. At this point all we can do is hope ZOS finally does something to stop it like removing the api function.

I mean, the guy literally just admitted to using a bot to dupe his entire guild chat - which is a MAJOR violation of the terms of service, and you expect us to believe a level 2 account who sits in a corner in Daggerfall or a Bush in Auridon is an active player? I don't understand how this is being allowed to continue. There are multiple violations of the terms of service happening here, several of which this guy is proudly stating in real time.

See examples from the terms of service here:

"You agree not to access, receive, play, or use any Service to:

-Take any action that permits You to collect personal information or aggregated and/or anonymized statistics of others ( aka logging and duping guild chat

-You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities or influence or disadvantage the playing ability of others, or influence or advantage Your access to or receipt, play or use of the Services or influence or disadvantage the access of others. Third-party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but not limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to access, receive, play or use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

On Invite Spam

-Engage in disruptive behavior in chat areas, game areas, forums, or any other area or aspect of the Services. Examples of disruptive behavior include, but are not limited to, conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service, vulgar language, abusiveness, hitting the return key repeatedly or inputting large images so the screen goes by too fast to read, use of excessive shouting (i.e., all text in capitals) in an attempt to disturb other users, "spamming" or flooding (i.e., posting repetitive text), ]commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements, posting advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities.

I'm hoping that ZoS responds to this in the next day with a staunch rebuttal against this behavior, otherwise the community may have to start designing our own method of duplicating what Chance is doing here to hammer in the point. If this add-on was widely available and being used by multiple guilds, I'm /certain/ this problem would have been solved by now. Why don't you post your add-on publicly @Chance_25 - that way we can all get under the hood and verify all these systems you say are built in to prevent abuse.

Pevey wrote: »

Why do you insist even despite the community reaction to it?

The boards are a very small portion of the community. The guild finder is a good tool, but being able to invite people near you is also a good tool. While I am no longer a member of that guild, I am glad I was invited. It has a smooth pathway to build up to intermediate and endgame content, and helped a lot during my early times. I have found the guild and its members to have a lot of generosity and patience, and I greatly appreciate all they have done for me.

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

I'm hoping that ZoS responds to this in the next day with a staunch rebuttal against this behavior, otherwise the community may have to start designing our own method of duplicating what Chance is doing here to hammer in the point. If this add-on was widely available and being used by multiple guilds, I'm /certain/ this problem would have been solved by now. Why don't you post your add-on publicly @Chance_25 - that way we can all get under the hood and verify all these systems you say are built in to prevent abuse.

Yep you can bet that if every guild had that addon and used it to the same degree as his guilds do, then it would be chaos and quickly be shut down. Which signifies a problem.

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

Ok cool. The vast majority of players don't want spam or bots sitting in corners all day grabbing every invite it can. Tools can be abused, and it's being abused.

True. The only issue here is that declining doesn't prevent being reinvited, leading to the spam. Without that, being invited to a guild is not a bad thing.

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

This issue has nothing to do with the quality of the guilds.

I was pointing out why I was glad I was invited in order to counteract some of the statements that guild invites are bad and should stop, and giving my experience with the guild to counteract some of the statements that the guild does nothing but troll and be toxic.

Deserrick wrote: »

True. The only issue here is that declining doesn't prevent being reinvited, leading to the spam. Without that, being invited to a guild is not a bad thing.

Yeah no, if you don't see how mass inviting a bunch of players for hours on end is a problem then idk what to tell you.

The problem is two fold, it "glitching" and sending invites to people who decline, and mass inviting everyone if they don't have full guild slots already. New players are harassed by it and even when they do join, they get pushed over to a platform off the game just to stay in the guild.

There's nothing to defend here. The only good solution is to stop abusing an addon. Idc what chance say's, there is absolutely automation happening. You can use the addon, just don't park an alt account in a main city and have it auto press V.

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

Yeah no, if you don't see how mass inviting a bunch of players for hours on end is a problem then idk what to tell you.

There is nothing to tell. Not everyone will see things the same way you do.

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

The problem is two fold, it "glitching" and sending invites to people who decline, and mass inviting everyone if they don't have full guild slots already. New players are harassed by it and even when they do join, they get pushed over to a platform off the game just to stay in the guild.

The way I see it, only the glitching is the problem. Without it, it is a single invite, not harassment.

Deserrick wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

Ok cool. The vast majority of players don't want spam or bots sitting in corners all day grabbing every invite it can. Tools can be abused, and it's being abused.

True. The only issue here is that declining doesn't prevent being reinvited, leading to the spam. Without that, being invited to a guild is not a bad thing.

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

This issue has nothing to do with the quality of the guilds.

I was pointing out why I was glad I was invited in order to counteract some of the statements that guild invites are bad and should stop, and giving my experience with the guild to counteract some of the statements that the guild does nothing but troll and be toxic.

Being invited to the same guild several times in a single day is a bad thing. Declining does not end the spam. It continues at different wayshrine locations. To prevent being spammed multiple times, I don't reply, I just leave it hang there until I leave for the day.

Deserrick wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

Ok cool. The vast majority of players don't want spam or bots sitting in corners all day grabbing every invite it can. Tools can be abused, and it's being abused.

True. The only issue here is that declining doesn't prevent being reinvited, leading to the spam. Without that, being invited to a guild is not a bad thing.

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

This issue has nothing to do with the quality of the guilds.

I was pointing out why I was glad I was invited in order to counteract some of the statements that guild invites are bad and should stop, and giving my experience with the guild to counteract some of the statements that the guild does nothing but troll and be toxic.

Just curious, @Deserrick . How would you feel about 10 or 20 guilds tossing you invites simultaneously every time you visit a popular wayshrine?

Neutral. Just like how I feel if invited to a group or duel. If I have space for another guild, I might accept the invite, read the about segment, and see if it suits me to stay in.

Appreciate the reply. You have a commendable level of tolerance! I can't imagine many folks would be unbothered by instantly receiving 15 simultaneous invites from 15 guilds every time they arrive at a popular wayshrine.

A whole year ago by the way.