Future of Battlegrounds

NxJoeyD · February 19

Major_Toughness wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Hard truth .. no amount of 3 team or 4 team or MMR is going to ever address the exploitation of bad mechanics … period.

Whether anyone like it or not BGs are in such a disparaging state that it doesn’t matter what creative ideas we cook up here it’s not going to make up for the lack of counterplay and mechanical oversights.

Listen, as long as you have players that are allowed to scale self healing to stratospheric levels or allowed to achieve critical frequencies of 80% and up then everything else is moot.

ESO has always had a form of meta but never any sort of “mechanical mashup” like what we see here and so long as we let that fact continue on then even if we were to all agree on whether 3 team 4 stacks are better or how MMR should calculate it still wouldn’t matter.

If your car has a broken radio while simultaneously has a hole in the tire, I don’t care what you do to your radio to fix it, you’re not going anywhere until you fix the tire first .. that’s where we are with BGs now.

Except in this situation the BG system is the tire and the radio is game balance.

I would say it’s the other way around. The BG system is the radio.

Because it’s not just the balance of values of abilites, per se, it’s the mechanics, there simply aren’t proper counterplay mechanics combined with an abundance of poorly optimized mechanics that are exploitable.

There’s literally zero changes to the BG system that could be made whereby a major flaw / hole couldn’t be exposed and that’s due to the mechanics.

Those have to be fixed because without those we have no metrics that matter. BG’s are plagued with players that don’t have a developed skill basis yet can hit metrics by being rewarded by senseless spamming. Thats not combat and you can’t develop and reliable metrics like that with with to match make BGs

xylena · February 19

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I would say it’s the other way around.

Even when the meta was decent, BGs still suffered due to poorly structured queues, incoherent formats, nonsensical scoring, bizarre matchmaking, bugs and exploits, etc.

The BG system is the wheels, metagame balance is the steering column. Right now we've got 4 flat tires, 2 bent control arms, and the power steering went out.

NxJoeyD · February 19

xylena wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I would say it’s the other way around.

Even when the meta was decent, BGs still suffered due to poorly structured queues, incoherent formats, nonsensical scoring, bizarre matchmaking, bugs and exploits, etc.

The BG system is the wheels, metagame balance is the steering column. Right now we've got 4 flat tires, 2 bent control arms, and the power steering went out.

True, It is very much broken.

Meta balance though is uniquely different than it ever was in the past and that’s down to mechanics .. not just that skill A can deal X damage vs skill B can deal Y so it lags behind. In the past that’s (essentially) what it was but this is a whole new level of mess.

Mechanics as well as combinations of mechanics have enabled scenarios that are more problematic and there’s no MMR structure that’s going to address that.

Unless we also talk about core combat mechanics as well as things like MMR you’re never going to get a generally positive subscription to BGs, I’m not saying you’ll please everyone but you can’t even get close to a reasonable middle ground with how things are now.

If Football was built whereby team A only had to run 20 yards to score whist team B had to run the full 50 then nobody would play football. No amount of scouting for top talent on the part of team B is going to compensate for the underlying design of the field. The overall problem in this example isn’t going to necessarily be whom is on team A or team B (matchmaking) but rather the field itself.

Matchmaking is certainly a factor and it can absolutely be improved but if we want BGs that anyone will want to play, when with improved matchmaking, we have to address the mechanics.

Moonspawn · February 20

xylena wrote: »

If the 3rd place team is bad, it doesn't matter if they try to kite, they still get run down for easy kills.

Three-sided Chaosball was supposed to teach players how to kite both opposing teams even while hindered by the ball's damage and debuff. It's a shame the easily solvable problems that plagued the game mode ruined at least 8 out of every 10 matches.

Haki_7 · February 20

MincMincMinc wrote: »

mandricus wrote: »

It is very hard to find a single metric that could sum up "how good your are at the game". There are anyway some indicators that may give a clue about how strong you are compared to the rest of the group and how much you follow the rules of the game.

KDA covers your DPS and healers.

But healers don't usually get high assistances. Especially in 8v8.

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 139: Waiting 16 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)

https://youtu.be/ACSxDdyqfzM

Domination 1 and 2, no possibility of losing:

Deathmatch 1, no possibility of losing. Thought we would finally have a match because they got us in the first encounter. I was wrong. It was just a damage sigil:

Deathmatch 2, no possibility of losing:

Chaosball 1, no possibility of losing. We did because no one wanted to play the objective:

Chaosball 2, no possibility of losing:

Chaosball 3, no possibility of winning. Spawncamping from start to finish. Guided by the first and third critical flaws of 2-sided, Green-2 ''helped'' by ditching us to go after easy kills:

Major_Mangle · February 20

Chapter 139 of reporting haki and moonspawn for spaming/bumping the same forum thread for months with nonsense, clearly breaking the forum rules again and again and again.

xylena · February 20

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GregoryV if this is supposed to be the catch-all BGs thread for General, can we get some moderation on the two posters spamming the same lists over and over? Nobody is even engaging with the list spam, it just drowns out any actual conversation.

MincMincMinc · February 20

NxJoeyD wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Indeed they are.

But if they're using these metrics, then the problem can't be the matchmaking.
Relic, no way of winning.

Domination 1 and 2, no way of losing. Lots of running around without even drawing weapons, spawncamping, and people giving up.

Chaosball 1, no way of losing. Took way longer than it should because no one wanted to grab the chaosballs.

Chaosball 2, no way of losing. Green-2 went around targeting newcomers.

Chaosball 3, no way of losing. Opponents couldn't reach the objective.

Crazy King, no way of losing. Same as above.

The resetting at the start of each month is certainly a problem, but comparing outliers does seem to indicate that the matchmaking isn't as horrible as people believe. On that note, does anyone know if the following article is legit?

Source:
www.pcgamesn.com/the-elder-scrolls-online/mmr-battlegrounds-interview

ESO dev lifts lid on the MMO's MMR system saying "it's nothing new"
After huge battleground changes recently hit the Elder Scrolls Online recently, players have become obsessed with MMR and how it all works.
ESO dev lifts lid on the MMO's MMR system saying "it's nothing new"

Updated: Nov 1, 2024
The Elder Scrolls Online
PvP has received a renewed focus in the Elder Scrolls Online thanks to the most recent update which completely overhauled the game's battlegrounds. Instead of the traditional version found previously in the Tamrielic game which consisted of three teams facing off against each other, things have become simplified and streamlined. Now, it's just your team versus another one, and as a result of this new playing field fans are looking at the MMO's matchmaking rating system and wondering what effects it has and how to navigate it.
We recently got the chance to speak to Elder Scrolls Online PvP designer Brian Wheeler about all the big changes hitting the MMORPG right now. One query that came up relates to the community's current obsession with MMR, especially looking at how one goes up or down in rank against other players, and where the current system came from.
"What's funny is it's nothing new. We've had that. We've had that MMR system in since update 20," Wheeler laughs. "When we launched battlegrounds with Morrowind, we had a pretty basic MMR that was based on your win and loss, and that's it. What we explored after that was looking at Elo and TrueSkill and various things like that, because what it's supposed to do is take into account your expected win rate or not, which is basically the MMR of your enemies."
"So let's say we're in a group and the system gets the MMR average of our group and then it goes, what's the group? What's the enemy's MMR, what's their ranking and their average?" he continues. "If theirs is higher than yours and you lose, then you don't take as big of a hit. But if you win, you get a bigger gain. The reverse goes for the other team. If they were fighting us and we're lower and we win, they're going to take a bigger hit because they lost to a crappier team."
"The only calculation change we had to make was whether it's looking at two other teams or just one other team in terms of are you going to win, or are you not going to win," he says. "The calculations have always been based on win/loss, and it's been very interesting seeing how much more people are getting interested in that because as a PvP and gamer nerd, I like looking at that stuff."
That said, there's a limit to how much the developer will share - as it might become open to abuse if the full MMR calculations ever became known. "We do have some help definitions that explain a little bit how it functions but as with many things in the game, we're not going to tell you the exact calculations," he lets us know. "That's the secret in the sauce that we have across the board for the entire game."
If you'd like to check out what's new in this latest update which completely changed how battlegrounds work in ESO, head over to the full patch notes to get the lowdown.
Or you can always take a look at our guides to the best fantasy games and the best single-player MMOs you can play on PC, as they're sure to help you find exactly what you've been looking for.
You can also follow us on Google News for daily PC games news, reviews, and guides, or grab our PCGN deals tracker to net yourself some bargains.

What they say=/how it works, this should be obvious to anyone who actually plays battlegrounds.

Play one character a lot=longer queues on that character, simple as that. Your WR, KDR etc does not matter in that equation.

A simple way to showcase this would be showing the MMR of each player in a BG and the amount of points gained/lost at the end; somehow I doubt the CP122 I had in my team yesterday is a "top MMR player" for example.

Please stop obfuscating actual big issues in this game by theorizing with limited understanding and spreading misinformation, thank you very much.

Wait what are you trying to say isn't true? We know that the mmr builds up and then resets all the time. Its basically no different than how cyrodil leaderboard works with campaigns resetting. Zos was in one of the bg threads or maybe this one telling us how the current system is aimed at giving everyone a chance to get on the leaderboard......basically they preferred everyone getting a chance to see their name in top 10 for an hour every reset before being brutally smurfed for the rest of the month.

@ruskiii can probably find it.

Again as far as we discussed earlier on in the thread one of the only real ways of separating out players is by simply using KDA with some combined win/loss modifier. Someone going 50/0/0 should probably move up regardless of win/loss. Someone who is maybe 5/5/20 with a win should probably move up. Someone with 0/27/5 should probably move down even with a win.

Regardless we have to somehow convince zos that nobody cares about seeing their name on a monthly resetting leaderboard VS actually having an enjoyable experience for all skill levels. Its crazy that we need to convince a gaming company how zos sponsored smurfing is bad for the game. If people didn't like seeing MMR or having a persistent ladder to climb, why do Esports exist? Why are moba games so popular? Again, its crazy that people in the gaming industry don't understand this.

I'm saying the win/loss MMR system isn't working.

You can do 100 BGs over a couple of days on one character and the only thing that changes is the queue time, you'll still be put against the same opponents.

I.e. you'll see your friends in a lobby you didn't get a pop for, have to wait for it to end and then get in the next lobby with your friends... And a bunch of low CPs etc etc

The idea they have according to statements is fine (win/loss MMR system), although it should probably be account wide and resets should be every 3-4 months and/or "soft resets" or "decay" rather than full resets... It's just that none of this apart from the reset works at the moment.

Oh yeah it obviously doesn't work in its current state. The way they worded it, it sounds like the farther apart your mmr gets it would not separate you from those players. It would try to get close average matches, but if not possible it ends up mixing a higher mmr player back into the low mmr mix once their que priority builds up enough time. Then it just doesn't count the match towards mmr since it knows it put a smurf in there.

The resetting doesn't help either. I don't think resetting is necessary at all. Just design it such that players are removed from the shown leaderboard if they don't play for a month. Keeping their MMR upon return to avoid smurfing.

Yes it should certainly be account wide.

Agreed, it should be account wide and shouldn’t reset, only evolve on a regular basis.

I’m not the biggest fan of K/D/A because in the current state thats not reflective of skill base … but .. it can be reflective of mechanical base so although K/D/A might not group like “skilled” players it’s likely our best shot at grouping like “mechanical” players together which is, well, as good as we can ask for now.

The BGs scoring rubrics are beyond hot garbage so none of that data is really useful at all either.

In an ideal game sure score and winning matters more and should increase rank. This is true for games like LoL or dota where people care alot about the matches to boost their rank.......ESO has no clear ranking system. There is no popup trophy that shows you leveling up from bronze 5 to silver 1 or to gold 3.

So most people only care about playing the fun combat, thus most matches end up revolving around KDA......Its why the PCNA BG guild is called deathmatch.

Right now though the system is setup to FORCE smurfing, they need a simple system to split up the combat veterans and the noobs to make matches more fair. Thus we are left with needing a KDA based system first and foremost. Maybe later on they bring back a scoreboard rank type system. For now I think it is far more important to make the matches fair skill level wise so players stop quitting the game or stop playing BGs.

Moonspawn · February 20

xylena wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GregoryV if this is supposed to be the catch-all BGs thread for General, can we get some moderation on the two posters spamming the same lists over and over? Nobody is even engaging with the list spam, it just drowns out any actual conversation.

The lists aren't the same, the scoreboards are all different. Please stop lying.

xylena · February 20

Moonspawn wrote: »

The lists aren't the same. Not one of these scoreboards is the same. Please stop lying.

It's not a lie. You guys cherry pick different scoreboards but the argument and context are the same every time, everything has been said regarding your lists, nobody is even bothering to engage anymore beyond "why are these guys still spamming these weird lists."

Elaborate rework suggestions would be better received in Community Generated Content. If you sincerely want to improve 3-sided BGs then I suggest joining your peers in identifying problems to the devs, not trying to roleplay yourself as a project manager.

Decimus · February 20

Moonspawn wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GregoryV if this is supposed to be the catch-all BGs thread for General, can we get some moderation on the two posters spamming the same lists over and over? Nobody is even engaging with the list spam, it just drowns out any actual conversation.

The lists aren't the same. Not one of these scoreboards is the same. Please stop lying.

The message is the same, and I'm pretty sure most people are tired of hearing it repeated over and over again.

This is the forums where people are supposed to have conversations, not some personal [snip] diary full of "bad BG bad BG bad BG bad BG bad BG bad BG bad BG bad BG bad BG bad BG bad BG" - can you imagine if everyone spammed their daily battlegrounds here?

Spoiler, not everyone's "diary" would read "bad BG" over and over again because you can be at a level where your personal input affects the outcome of the match. Viewing something as "no possibility of winning/losing" is thus a personal limitation, not an universal truth.
[edited for flaming]

xylena · February 20

Decimus wrote: »

Viewing something as "no possibility of winning/losing" is thus a personal limitation, not an universal truth.

Wonder why Moonspawn hasn't shuffled players between Haki's teams to show how the BG could've been balanced with better MMR, like he was doing in the other threads...

MincMincMinc · February 20

Trying to balance the teams right now is like balancing scales using elephants and mice. Chances are it doesnt matter at all what the mice weigh and itll come down to the elephants...........You need to start by fixing the general ovararching MMR issue which is that high skilled high KDA players are being MMR RESET back into low skilled low KDA player matches. We should be only putting mice or only putting elephants on the scales in the first place. Then go about shuffling them around.

Until the MMR reset gets fixed, no mmr system matters. We need to focus on pressing zos about this issue first. THEN we can go and discuss which issue is important next, whether it be team balancing, spawncamping because the spawns are too high and cause fall animations, Spawn timers not being long enough to help regroup teams, ETC.

Its cool to talk about ideas......but for zos to hear anything we need everyone on the same page screaming the same thing at them. Talking about these other topics dilutes out the thread and undermines the primary issue that has to be handled first. Yall are going 3 or 4 steps ahead of zos.

MMR rank reset has to be removed or replaced

Moonspawn · February 20

Haki_7 wrote: »

imPDA wrote: »

If this system works as described, it does 2 things:
1) it tries to make as many people of the same MMR as possible into one game
2) it tries to make teams as equal MMR-wise as possible

So, two results of Elo are:
1) if number of players is big, it can successfully pick 16 players of the same MMR A+-a (like, 1500+-100 for example). It is possible in big MOBA games.
2) if number of players is not that big, it can pick any players to make groups look equal. Balancer can pick 6 "1500 MMR" players, one "200 MMR" player and one "2800 MMR" player, so team will be balanced at 1500. Another team can have all "1500 MMR" players.

You usually see result 2, I suppose, because from my feeling, there are not many players in PvP. If so, it is hard to make two equal groups out of equal players, so it picks some overskilled players and team them with low MMR players, and another team can have the same situation, that is why you usually see 2-4 players with positive KD and some damage, big score, and all other players are constantly dead, 0 damage, 0 score.

It is very rough estimation, and it will not be true in many cases, but you can estimate, that average winrate of you team is near 50%. If your winrate is 80%, winrates of 6 other players are 45 55 45 55 45 55, then winrate of last player should be close to 20% Once again, it is very rough estimation.

This is the only explanation that lines up with everything we've seen so far about the matchmaking. Isn't it?
Chaosball, no way to lose. Opponents couldn't reach the objective:

Deathmatch 1, 2 and 3, no way to lose. Someone please save me from this hell:

Domination, no way to win. Five flags, 4 minutes match:

Relic, no way to lose:

Crazy King, no way to lose:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 138: Waiting 16 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)
https://youtu.be/6hW3Va4VOEk

Indeed it is. The queue times, the comparison between players and the article.

Radiate77 · 12:00AM

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MMR rank reset has to be removed or replaced

We do not have the total population for this.

Perhaps after Crossplay, but honestly even then if no other content releases beside it. Adjusted players do not deserve to be stuck in queue for 2 hours because other players refuse to learn counterplay.

I’ve been in 4v4 Team Deathmatch games where we’ve lost the first round, and then realizing what the problem was, I threw on Mass Hysteria or Turn Evil, made a few callouts, completely changed the trajectory.

Un-winnable games are nearly non-existent in Solo queue, as the likelihood of having 2 good players on the other team are incredibly low without MMR forcing them all into a lobby together.

NxJoeyD · 12:32AM

Radiate77 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MMR rank reset has to be removed or replaced

We do not have the total population for this.

Perhaps after Crossplay, but honestly even then if no other content releases beside it. Adjusted players do not deserve to be stuck in queue for 2 hours because other players refuse to learn counterplay.

I’ve been in 4v4 Team Deathmatch games where we’ve lost the first round, and then realizing what the problem was, I threw on Mass Hysteria or Turn Evil, made a few callouts, completely changed the trajectory.

Un-winnable games are nearly non-existent in Solo queue, as the likelihood of having 2 good players on the other team are incredibly low without MMR forcing them all into a lobby together.

I agree there’s lots of situations where players don’t pay attention to proper counterplay so a BG is lost but to say non winnable games are nearly non existent is not correct at all.

The state of mechanics in BGs has brought some of the most non-counterplay mechanics ever. Crit, both damage and healing, there’s no viable counterplay. Impen + Rally Cry isn’t enough to ensure a player isn’t at max crit and that’s a lot of resource to commit. Plus, in order for RC to proc it requires a crit so unless you’re also a crit build that’s not even reliable.

There’s still plenty of unwinable matches now that subclassing has given unskilled players access to mechanics and rewarded them for spamming.

Radiate77 · 12:38AM

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MMR rank reset has to be removed or replaced

We do not have the total population for this.

Perhaps after Crossplay, but honestly even then if no other content releases beside it. Adjusted players do not deserve to be stuck in queue for 2 hours because other players refuse to learn counterplay.

I’ve been in 4v4 Team Deathmatch games where we’ve lost the first round, and then realizing what the problem was, I threw on Mass Hysteria or Turn Evil, made a few callouts, completely changed the trajectory.

Un-winnable games are nearly non-existent in Solo queue, as the likelihood of having 2 good players on the other team are incredibly low without MMR forcing them all into a lobby together.

I agree there’s lots of situations where players don’t pay attention to proper counterplay so a BG is lost but to say non winnable games are nearly non existent is not correct at all.

The state of mechanics in BGs has brought some of the most non-counterplay mechanics ever. Crit, both damage and healing, there’s no viable counterplay. Impen + Rally Cry isn’t enough to ensure a player isn’t at max crit and that’s a lot of resource to commit. Plus, in order for RC to proc it requires a crit so unless you’re also a crit build that’s not even reliable.

There’s still plenty of unwinable matches now that subclassing has given unskilled players access to mechanics and rewarded them for spamming.

You’ve gotta be really unlucky to land an un-winnable lobby against 2 heal tanks in Domination, or 3 good players on the other team in a Solo-Queue setting.

NxJoeyD · 1:41AM

Radiate77 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MMR rank reset has to be removed or replaced

We do not have the total population for this.

Perhaps after Crossplay, but honestly even then if no other content releases beside it. Adjusted players do not deserve to be stuck in queue for 2 hours because other players refuse to learn counterplay.

I’ve been in 4v4 Team Deathmatch games where we’ve lost the first round, and then realizing what the problem was, I threw on Mass Hysteria or Turn Evil, made a few callouts, completely changed the trajectory.

Un-winnable games are nearly non-existent in Solo queue, as the likelihood of having 2 good players on the other team are incredibly low without MMR forcing them all into a lobby together.

I agree there’s lots of situations where players don’t pay attention to proper counterplay so a BG is lost but to say non winnable games are nearly non existent is not correct at all.

The state of mechanics in BGs has brought some of the most non-counterplay mechanics ever. Crit, both damage and healing, there’s no viable counterplay. Impen + Rally Cry isn’t enough to ensure a player isn’t at max crit and that’s a lot of resource to commit. Plus, in order for RC to proc it requires a crit so unless you’re also a crit build that’s not even reliable.

There’s still plenty of unwinable matches now that subclassing has given unskilled players access to mechanics and rewarded them for spamming.

You’ve gotta be really unlucky to land an un-winnable lobby against 2 heal tanks in Domination, or 3 good players on the other team in a Solo-Queue setting.

You don’t have to have heal tanks in BGs anymore. All of your crit DPS are full self healers now, thanks to subclassing.

As for actual healers, they’re inconsistent and I don’t blame them. So many crit DPS run self sustain that they don’t support their healer so we see fewer healers queue up than we used to.

It used to be that class separation made it so that if one wanted to heal or deal damage there was a resource barrier to doing one or the other, but that isn’t the case anymore; a high crit DPS can simultaneously slap a tank with a 25k Merciless as well as fully heal in one burst, all with battle spirit active.

If you toss a gaggle of those into a BG you’re going to have no real options for counterplay because there’s not enough sources in the game to offset their modifiers.

Radiate77 · 2:30AM

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MMR rank reset has to be removed or replaced

We do not have the total population for this.

Perhaps after Crossplay, but honestly even then if no other content releases beside it. Adjusted players do not deserve to be stuck in queue for 2 hours because other players refuse to learn counterplay.

I’ve been in 4v4 Team Deathmatch games where we’ve lost the first round, and then realizing what the problem was, I threw on Mass Hysteria or Turn Evil, made a few callouts, completely changed the trajectory.

Un-winnable games are nearly non-existent in Solo queue, as the likelihood of having 2 good players on the other team are incredibly low without MMR forcing them all into a lobby together.

I agree there’s lots of situations where players don’t pay attention to proper counterplay so a BG is lost but to say non winnable games are nearly non existent is not correct at all.

The state of mechanics in BGs has brought some of the most non-counterplay mechanics ever. Crit, both damage and healing, there’s no viable counterplay. Impen + Rally Cry isn’t enough to ensure a player isn’t at max crit and that’s a lot of resource to commit. Plus, in order for RC to proc it requires a crit so unless you’re also a crit build that’s not even reliable.

There’s still plenty of unwinable matches now that subclassing has given unskilled players access to mechanics and rewarded them for spamming.

You’ve gotta be really unlucky to land an un-winnable lobby against 2 heal tanks in Domination, or 3 good players on the other team in a Solo-Queue setting.

You don’t have to have heal tanks in BGs anymore. All of your crit DPS are full self healers now, thanks to subclassing.

As for actual healers, they’re inconsistent and I don’t blame them. So many crit DPS run self sustain that they don’t support their healer so we see fewer healers queue up than we used to.

It used to be that class separation made it so that if one wanted to heal or deal damage there was a resource barrier to doing one or the other, but that isn’t the case anymore; a high crit DPS can simultaneously slap a tank with a 25k Merciless as well as fully heal in one burst, all with battle spirit active.

If you toss a gaggle of those into a BG you’re going to have no real options for counterplay because there’s not enough sources in the game to offset their modifiers.

Okay I let the first one fly, but this is now the second time that you’ve blamed Subclassing for people healing well on builds that do high damage.

This is not new.

People have been suggesting a change to heal scaling for a long time, far longer than one year. 😂

We were running 40k health Polar Wind unkillable MagDens that slap with burst due to Shalks and shred your health bar using Status Effects, and Sorcerers flying around with 30k in wards on top of a burst heal you got from casting the skill completely immune to burst and DoTs while throwing out ridiculous oppressive damage. Coagulating Blood was and still is the strongest self heal in the game… and it scales off of weapon/spell damage, and you have Healthy Offering, which is the highest scaling burst heal other than Coag. Templar doesn’t even have to blink and they are back to full health. Arcanist wards better than Sorcerer and Necromancer is buried out back.

All of those things above; are still true today.

It gets really exhausting watching misinformation and blaming spread so rampantly by people unintentionally due to a bias.

If you don’t like the system, then just say so. No need to create reasons to dislike it, or to co-opt threads that have nothing to do with it to push an agenda.

NxJoeyD · 3:23AM

Radiate77 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MMR rank reset has to be removed or replaced

We do not have the total population for this.

Perhaps after Crossplay, but honestly even then if no other content releases beside it. Adjusted players do not deserve to be stuck in queue for 2 hours because other players refuse to learn counterplay.

I’ve been in 4v4 Team Deathmatch games where we’ve lost the first round, and then realizing what the problem was, I threw on Mass Hysteria or Turn Evil, made a few callouts, completely changed the trajectory.

Un-winnable games are nearly non-existent in Solo queue, as the likelihood of having 2 good players on the other team are incredibly low without MMR forcing them all into a lobby together.

I agree there’s lots of situations where players don’t pay attention to proper counterplay so a BG is lost but to say non winnable games are nearly non existent is not correct at all.

The state of mechanics in BGs has brought some of the most non-counterplay mechanics ever. Crit, both damage and healing, there’s no viable counterplay. Impen + Rally Cry isn’t enough to ensure a player isn’t at max crit and that’s a lot of resource to commit. Plus, in order for RC to proc it requires a crit so unless you’re also a crit build that’s not even reliable.

There’s still plenty of unwinable matches now that subclassing has given unskilled players access to mechanics and rewarded them for spamming.

You’ve gotta be really unlucky to land an un-winnable lobby against 2 heal tanks in Domination, or 3 good players on the other team in a Solo-Queue setting.

You don’t have to have heal tanks in BGs anymore. All of your crit DPS are full self healers now, thanks to subclassing.

As for actual healers, they’re inconsistent and I don’t blame them. So many crit DPS run self sustain that they don’t support their healer so we see fewer healers queue up than we used to.

It used to be that class separation made it so that if one wanted to heal or deal damage there was a resource barrier to doing one or the other, but that isn’t the case anymore; a high crit DPS can simultaneously slap a tank with a 25k Merciless as well as fully heal in one burst, all with battle spirit active.

If you toss a gaggle of those into a BG you’re going to have no real options for counterplay because there’s not enough sources in the game to offset their modifiers.

Okay I let the first one fly, but this is now the second time that you’ve blamed Subclassing for people healing well on builds that do high damage.

This is not new.

People have been suggesting a change to heal scaling for a long time, far longer than one year. 😂

We were running 40k health Polar Wind unkillable MagDens that slap with burst due to Shalks and shred your health bar using Status Effects, and Sorcerers flying around with 30k in wards on top of a burst heal you got from casting the skill completely immune to burst and DoTs while throwing out ridiculous oppressive damage. Coagulating Blood was and still is the strongest self heal in the game… and it scales off of weapon/spell damage, and you have Healthy Offering, which is the highest scaling burst heal other than Coag. Templar doesn’t even have to blink and they are back to full health. Arcanist wards better than Sorcerer and Necromancer is buried out back.

All of those things above; are still true today.

It gets really exhausting watching misinformation and blaming spread so rampantly by people unintentionally due to a bias.

If you don’t like the system, then just say so. No need to create reasons to dislike it, or to co-opt threads that have nothing to do with it to push an agenda.

Subclassing is a huge contributor to abusive healing.

The reason is because Subclassing gave builds access to mechanics and scaling that they were never intended to have access to.

Sorc shields have always been a pain point but Sorc DPS mechanical output was limited, it wasn’t as dynamic as, say, a NB; therefore Sorc’s being a higher utility contributor made sense. But even Sorc shields got a proper nerf that greatly reduced the heal factor, which I agree it needed.

Conversely, NBs had healing that could scale but was far more conditional, those limited conditions suited their build, Mark Target, for example, isn’t a burst-on-command heal so it meant although it was capable of a powerful burst; it was mechanically limited and required more thoughtful use.

Subclassing changed all of that. Not only did it enable higher modifier scaling but it also gave access to heals that function in ways that remove the combat strategy component and esentally provide get out of jail free cards.

That’s not misinformation that’s fact. The Devs have agreed that Subclassing created a severe imbalance and healing is just one factor.

Base heal scaling isn’t my issue, my issue is the fact that players can critically self heal and can do so with such significant frequency and degree that they don’t have to really consider the risk vs reward prospect of their actions. That aspect was not commonplace in BGs prior to subclassing. We had some strong self heals but nothing like this, and even the strong self heals that were out there had output limitations by class that, although, weren’t perfectly balanced, they weren’t this bad.

Healing skills were developed with the logic that their use case would be limited both complementary and mechanically by the scope of the class they were placed in. Subclassing had the dual impact of removing those limits and enabling higher critical scaling.

This is really an easy fix, simply make critical a hard cap. Full stop. No player would be able to allocate values above the hard cap which would make the existing counter play elements viable again. This would also still leave healing skills intact to support builds. Yes, some will out perform others but they won’t have the overreaching impact they have now.

Haki_7 · 11:58AM

xylena wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Great opportunity to practice the single most important skill one must have in 3-sided Deathmatch

The skill of being so godlike that I can 1v8 every other sweatlord in the game?

No, it's the skill of ''moving together away from the sandwich, thus rendering opponents vulnerable to ult dumps and to each other.'' It's written right there.
If not for its easily solvable game-breaking problems, isn't that what 3-sided chaosball was supposed to be?

Deathmatch 1, 2 and 3, inevitable victories. Would it be possible for the upcoming DM weekend to be 3-sided, instead of whatever this is?

Domination 1, inevitable defeat. Team promptly gave up (fourth flaw). At least it ended quickly:

Domination 2, inevitable victory:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 140: Waiting 18 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU):

https://youtu.be/FV7Q0LLitQo

Crazy King, inevitable victory:

Chaosball, inevitable victory. The usual pointless staring contest with ball carriers:

Moonspawn · 7:49PM

@TheKilamanjaro you say you have witnessed groups in the solo queue of 2-sided BGs. Did that use to happen when BGs were 3-sided?