Warden class refresh: please don't make warden just an Ice Wizard!

moderatelyfatman · 7:55AM

Dear ZOS,

I'm a Stamwarden main here and the last 4 years have been pretty rough. I always wanted to playstyle along the lines of a ranger or barbarian: a wilderness based warrior who is mobile and can fight with the help of pets.

Yes, I know people love the IceWarden and I would like to see that style supported. But please don't forget about stamwardens too!

Radiate77 · 8:03AM

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Dear ZOS,

I'm a Stamwarden main here and the last 4 years have been pretty rough. I always wanted to playstyle along the lines of a ranger or barbarian: a wilderness based warrior who is mobile and can fight with the help of pets.

Yes, I know people love the IceWarden and I would like to see that style supported. But please don't forget about stamwardens too!

They may have revealed their hand a bit, here are the names of the new Class Mastery Passives, and from the sound of it they are in fact leaning into Frost for damage.

Thick Hide reads as a defensive buff.
Wild Adaptation could mean literally anything.
Glacial Cold is clearly Frost Damage buff.
Hypothermia sounds like more Frost Damage.
Nature’s Bounty is revealed to be resource sharing.

Soarora · 8:44AM

I stand with my stamden siblings. Justice for stamdens! I hope you guys will get a poison or bleed themed kit with no necessary frost damage!

Radiate77 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Dear ZOS,

I'm a Stamwarden main here and the last 4 years have been pretty rough. I always wanted to playstyle along the lines of a ranger or barbarian: a wilderness based warrior who is mobile and can fight with the help of pets.

Yes, I know people love the IceWarden and I would like to see that style supported. But please don't forget about stamwardens too!

They may have revealed their hand a bit, here are the names of the new Class Mastery Passives, and from the sound of it they are in fact leaning into Frost for damage.

Thick Hide reads as a defensive buff.
Wild Adaptation could mean literally anything.
Glacial Cold is clearly Frost Damage buff.
Hypothermia sounds like more Frost Damage.
Nature’s Bounty is revealed to be resource sharing.

They did also say that they’ll change them with the refreshes once they have some good hooks and that right now they’re more generic.

frogthroat · 9:13AM

I liked the stam/mag dichotomy with different damage types. Like DK with poison/fire damage. That's why the Warden's bleed/frost choice has been fun. Yeah, bleedden is not as powerful as frostden, but it's fun to play.

But as the DK rework seems to take away the poison part and lean heavily into fire damage, I'm afraid that once Warden rework eventually comes, they will remove the significance of bleed damage and lean more into frost. Bleed is anyway the odd one out (like, where's the bleed glyph?) so I don't hold any expectations they would give us the option to RP as Jack Slash from Slaughterhouse Nine.

Alaztor91 · 9:59AM

Seeing how the DK rework was handled, we already know that each skill line is no longer going to be dedicated to a specific role. This means that 2/3 of the Warden skill lines will be non-Frost related(since they aren't Winter's Embrace) and feature a combination of Damage/Tank/Heal skills and passives.

Pushing Frost as the exclusive theme for all 3 skill lines would seem weird to me because 66% of the Class isn't even Frost related and the identity isn't as clearly defined as for example DK's ''Fire Dragon'' theme.

Danikat · 11:48AM

If they take away the animal/nature theme and make warden purely a frost wizard I'd delete my warden because I'd have no reason to keep her around.

I don't care that much about the intricate details of builds and skill balance, I'll adjust to whatever they do in that respect. For me this is a role-play character, she's a warden because it's the nearest I could get to a Wyress. A frost wizard is an entirely different kind of character so I'd have no use for my warden any more. Maybe I'd take one of the skill lines on my sorcerer, since it would be a better fit for him, but that's about it.

moderatelyfatman · 12:16PM

Danikat wrote: »

If they take away the animal/nature theme and make warden purely a frost wizard I'd delete my warden because I'd have no reason to keep her around.

I don't care that much about the intricate details of builds and skill balance, I'll adjust to whatever they do in that respect. For me this is a role-play character, she's a warden because it's the nearest I could get to a Wyress. A frost wizard is an entirely different kind of character so I'd have no use for my warden any more. Maybe I'd take one of the skill lines on my sorcerer, since it would be a better fit for him, but that's about it.

Agreed. A warden implies some sort of protector so a protector of nature such as a druid or ranger was a reasonable association with the class.

At this stage they should just rename the class Cryomancer and be done with it.

CalamityCat · 1:42PM

My main is a warden. I hate the frost stuff, I think the bleed damage makes a lot more sense in a class with animal companions and the green balance skill line. Or poison. Animals can cause bleeding/poison damage, as can tough and thorny plants. Working from those two lines I think the whole aesthetic would still be amazing. Or even water instead of the ice, as that makes sense alongside animals and plants, but has the potential for some really fun effects or skills.

I'm also fairly sure that the most popular warden skill line is currently animal companions... Zoo builds are popular for a reason. Obviously some use them for power, but I know others just like having animals to fight alongside them. The last thing I want to play is a warden where frost damage is the dominant thing. It needs to be possible to have a great build without requiring a full commitment to ice.

I understand that some players love being a frost mage, but I think the frost line aligns better with the sorc lightning to make a real stormy themed frost mage build. I'd play frost with lightning because I think they are a much better match and suit my sorc character.

My only real wishes for warden would be alternative animals to the bear - eg wolf/cat etc so we have a follower that suits our characters. Secondly, something like having more damage from wielding plants, foliage, vines etc or raising earth monsters etc. I'd love if green balance evolved to not just be healing but do some damage too. Or taunt by yoinking enemies with vines and dragging them in

ESO_Nightingale · 3:00PM

Speaking as someone heavily invested into the frost side of warden, i dont think the entire class should be frost damage, but i do think half of it should be. Mag morphs in animal companions and winters embrace. With stam morphs being bleed or poison in green balance and animal companions. But thats just what i think they should do.

AzuraFan · 3:04PM

Danikat wrote: »

If they take away the animal/nature theme and make warden purely a frost wizard I'd delete my warden because I'd have no reason to keep her around.

Me too, which would mean deleting the game because my warden is my main and the character I play 99% of the time. Having said that, looking at the passives, only 2/5 are directly related to frost.

I'm hoping that frost won't mean DPS and animal/nature will be other stuff (buff/support/defence). I play solo most of the time, so I need DPS. If they force frost for DPS, I'm not sure what I'll do. If I feel weak and it takes forever to kill stuff, I guess that would be it for me.

BXR_Lonestar · 3:20PM

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Dear ZOS,

I'm a Stamwarden main here and the last 4 years have been pretty rough. I always wanted to playstyle along the lines of a ranger or barbarian: a wilderness based warrior who is mobile and can fight with the help of pets.

Yes, I know people love the IceWarden and I would like to see that style supported. But please don't forget about stamwardens too!

I would love to see Warden play more like a ranger class character. Adept at combat at both range and up close, with some healing abilities, and able to call wild animals to their aid. I don't really think the ice damage theme really fits with the Warden at all and it always seemed out of place to me.

Destai · 3:32PM

I'm both nervous and excited for a Warden redo.

I have to be honest with myself, I'm not really liking them as a DPS class anymore. I've played them for a long time, and can't help but feel like I should've mained Templar.

I want them to be both a druid and a ranger, for their magicka and stamina specs respectively. I guess we'll see how the "seasons" power fantasy is realized. I've mostly played them as a ranger with bows, and as a frost mage until the Arctic Blast nerf.

They're in such a weird spot right now. As a frost mage, they have one passive that really is tailored to that specific fantasy. The rest is for tanking. So, I have to take animal companions, which I'm just tired of.

tomofhyrule · 3:41PM

Just looking at that screenshot, you can see the same three lines are there. It’s unlikely that they’re going to just change an entire line.

DK’s poison was an anomaly - DK never had a “Toxic Blood” line, it’s just that poison was a stamina-focused version of flame damage (DK also didn’t have poison at release, it was only added in U10 because they wanted stam equivalents to skills, but then hybridization made that redundant). As such, poison wasn’t really tied to DK as frost and animals are to Warden (or summons and lightning are tied to Sorc).

They will definitely make some of the Winter’s Embrace skills damaging (already done for some) and add some damage to Green Balance and support to Animals in the refresh. I do expect a unification of damage types though. The big question will be if they do go all frost with the animals and plants (unlikely), or if Warden splits to animals and plants having a different damage type (most Animal skills currently lean Bleed, but Fetcher is poison now and the plants could go poison so I could see them going that way instead and giving Bleed to NB).

Still, I am not expecting any Class to drop an entire skill line, so Wardens as frost mages or as Animal rangers (or my Skaal barbarian who fits all three lines simultaneously) should all still be possible.

AcadianPaladin · 4:21PM

I don't see an easy fix. I want to play a ranger of the forest class and would want one skill line focused on forest animals (not Morrowind bugs), one skill line focused on plants for healing and one skill line focused on plants for damage/entanglement (thorny vines for example instead of exploding shalks).

I see no room for ice in this kind of class. That said, however, cryomancers are cool (lol) as well. I'd like to play an ice mage with nothing but ice skills. Who says there has to be three skill lines? If so, then just give the cryomancer class 3 ice skill lines.

TLDR: Split warden into two classes - forest ranger and cryomancer.

Zodiarkslayer · 6:27PM

@AcadianPaladin Absolutely agree!
It won't happen. But it's the best thing that could happen to Warden.

Nemesis7884 · 6:36PM

I personally think it would be cool and fitting if the "ice" skill line was renamed/created as either "Elements" or "Seasons" utilizing all elemental damage, frost, fire, lightning even "earth" (physical) or poison... i think that would fit very well

coop500 · 6:40PM

I think Warden should drop the ice concept and dedicate ice magic to a different, new class that can actually specialize in it comfortably like how DKs specialize in fire and sorc specializes in lightning.

ArchMikem · 6:42PM

Ever since Warden became a thing, people who wanted to play Ice themed builds had to squeeze every ounce and beg for handouts just to make their characters viable, since Frost damage is so heavily nerfed especially after ZOS' decision that "Frost = Magic Tank". I put a lot of work into my Argonian Ice Warden just to make it do okay damage and take it into Dungeons without feeling like too much of a liability. The last thing I want is ZOS backed into the corner of deciding one or the other.

I don't care what they do with Warden, so long as my Cryomancer isn't butchered.

AScarlato · 7:05PM

CalamityCat wrote: »

My main is a warden. I hate the frost stuff, I think the bleed damage makes a lot more sense in a class with animal companions and the green balance skill line. Or poison. Animals can cause bleeding/poison damage, as can tough and thorny plants. Working from those two lines I think the whole aesthetic would still be amazing. Or even water instead of the ice, as that makes sense alongside animals and plants, but has the potential for some really fun effects or skills.

Frost always felt out of place. Ice kills most plants and probably would the flowers and other plants you summon. It also makes animals migrate or hibernate. I guess they just didn't know where to put ice so here it went.

Soarora · 7:07PM

AScarlato wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

My main is a warden. I hate the frost stuff, I think the bleed damage makes a lot more sense in a class with animal companions and the green balance skill line. Or poison. Animals can cause bleeding/poison damage, as can tough and thorny plants. Working from those two lines I think the whole aesthetic would still be amazing. Or even water instead of the ice, as that makes sense alongside animals and plants, but has the potential for some really fun effects or skills.

Frost always felt out of place. Ice kills most plants and probably would the flowers and other plants you summon. It also makes animals migrate or hibernate. I guess they just didn't know where to put ice so here it went.

I still think it’s anti-vvardenfell (wardenfell) because DK already exists. But this is most likely why they’re taking the “seasons” approach. Winter frost, spring flowers. Fall mushrooms, summer animals?

AScarlato · 7:12PM

Soarora wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

My main is a warden. I hate the frost stuff, I think the bleed damage makes a lot more sense in a class with animal companions and the green balance skill line. Or poison. Animals can cause bleeding/poison damage, as can tough and thorny plants. Working from those two lines I think the whole aesthetic would still be amazing. Or even water instead of the ice, as that makes sense alongside animals and plants, but has the potential for some really fun effects or skills.

Frost always felt out of place. Ice kills most plants and probably would the flowers and other plants you summon. It also makes animals migrate or hibernate. I guess they just didn't know where to put ice so here it went.

I still think it’s anti-vvardenfell (wardenfell) because DK already exists. But this is most likely why they’re taking the “seasons” approach. Winter frost, spring flowers. Fall mushrooms, summer animals?

Helpful to try to make more sense of the themes. Still find it a bit chaotic and not readily apparent, but that could work in a roundabout way.

YandereGirlfriend · 7:31PM

Since I view all of the classes, save for Sorcerer and Nightblade, as, for lack of a better word, "fake" classes from a TES lore perspective, I cannot get invested at all in themes of druids or rangers or whatnot.

Like Templar, those are names and archetypes from other fantasy settings that are entirely alien to the player character choices of the Elder Scrolls franchise. So making TES more generic by further trafficking in those archetypes is not a project that is personally appealing to me.

Unfortunately, however, that genie is long since out of the bottle and the three skill lines and their themes/vibes are not going anywhere. All have to learn to live together in the awkward kludge that is the "Warden".

Fortunately, there is ample low-hanging fruit for improvements within the class, since it features many effectively duplicative and dead morphs that can easily be recycled into useful skills without losing any current core functionality.

Green Balance likely has the most meat on the proverbial bone in that regard, as nearly all of the morphs are essentially, "The exact same except for one mechanically trivial tweak!" Adding some damage abilities to Green Balance instantly makes the class more interesting for almost any flavor of Warden enjoyer.

The Frost line also suffers greatly from the morph redundancy situation, but, unlike Green Balance, development effort has actually been invested into diversifying the line outside of its original tank focus, though mainly through its passives. Adding some additional damage abilities to the line, to give us more diverse options than the meager "Frost Cloak vs. Expansive Cloak" as well as completely re-thinking the abysmal pull skill, and hopefully more, would throw Ice Wardens a needed bone and add depth to the class.

The primary issue is including too many damage types within the class, as jacks of all trades, it is true, end up being masters of none. That is why having so many random damage types, Bleed, Frost, Poison, and Magic (bleh, Magic) all represented does nothing but water-down the class mechanically and thematically. We need to choose a select few and cut the rest loose.

IMO, generic Magic (and Physical) damage are cop-out damage types that should only be used when no other intuitive options are available, such as for Templars. As such, it should be the type to be banished. Frost and at least one of either Poison and Bleed should remain. All of these types have valid claims to inclusion based upon class themes. If we were only choosing two, however, Frost and Bleed make the most sense, and then Poison could be safely delegated to the Nightblade. But I would not argue against Poison vines being appealing on a vibes basis.

At the end of the day, though, nobody should be wishing to erase any of the existing branches. For better or for worse (IMO, for worse...) they exist and we all have to deal with them. Ousting a line because it does not align with one's particular headcanon is not the way forward for the class.

Radiate77 · 7:35PM

Warden should lean more into Mysticism, IMO.

Danikat · 8:47PM

Soarora wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

My main is a warden. I hate the frost stuff, I think the bleed damage makes a lot more sense in a class with animal companions and the green balance skill line. Or poison. Animals can cause bleeding/poison damage, as can tough and thorny plants. Working from those two lines I think the whole aesthetic would still be amazing. Or even water instead of the ice, as that makes sense alongside animals and plants, but has the potential for some really fun effects or skills.

Frost always felt out of place. Ice kills most plants and probably would the flowers and other plants you summon. It also makes animals migrate or hibernate. I guess they just didn't know where to put ice so here it went.

I still think it’s anti-vvardenfell (wardenfell) because DK already exists. But this is most likely why they’re taking the “seasons” approach. Winter frost, spring flowers. Fall mushrooms, summer animals?

I suspect they originally gave up on warden for the base game because they had 1/2 to 2/3 of a class design and couldn't decide what to do with it, then when they were looking for things to bundle with their next zone DLC to rebrand it as a chapter they dug out what they add, threw in the one element from previous TES games they hadn't used yet and called it a day.