NxJoeyD wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They also made wardens into the nature mages but ultimately you don't see people arguing that lightning should be the thing deleted and moved to warden. If you want to play a nature mage so bad, you could go play Warden.

Daedric pets are a staple of the Elder Scrolls franchise and a staple of the Sorceror in particular. It is by far one of the most popular setups for Sorcerer. I don't like how other people play the game is not a valid reason to delete 11 years of work of someone else. And that's what most of the arguments boil down towards because buffs fix competitive weakness, which has not always been the case.

It’s not about “not liking how someone else plays the game”.

How someone else plays has no bearing on my view on Sorc pets. Comparative facts and stats are what are driving my view, mechanical flaws are what are driving my view.

A number of us have shown how Sorc pets have mechanical problems and nowhere has it been said that fundamental mechanics are being rewritten for Sorc or any other class so there’s no reason to assume that will happen.

The only reason anyone is giving for keeping Sorc pets is “well they’ve always been a staple”.

Yes, some Sorc pets heal, we’ve established that Sorc’s have access to strong healing within the class without pets, we’ve established that the AI behind the pets is poor and unreliable, we’ve established that the DPS isn’t good enough for much of the in game content.

It’s not just about turning up the numbers on Sorc per tool tips, that’s not going to fix their problems. That does nothing for the poor AI or clumsy controls.

We get it, people like them for nostalgia but there’s not much else of substance beyond that.

Keeping them is asking everyone who doesn’t lean on nostalgia to suffer with class skills that can’t keep up with the rest of the game.

So, again, moving pets to a world skill is a fair and good compromise. Sorcs who want to run pets can without having to subclass and the Sorc class doesn’t have to be stuck under performing just because of nostalgia.

The controls aren't clumsy. Pressing a button to heal is natural and intuitive. The AI is not an issue either. They aren't supposed to be competiting with another player, they're supposed to be competiting with other dots and they do that just fine. Numbers tweaks would help to do that better.

People are blowing up minor issues because pets are "tacked on," or "weird," which are entirely matters of taste. It is transparent that there is no interest in making pet sorc experience better. The agenda is to delete pet sorc from existence entirely.

"The damage over time skill doesn't compete with another human being," is not a mechanical failure. This line of logic would never be applied to something like liquid lightning. It is only being trotted out against pets because of a distaste for them. So they're being compared to things they were never designed to compete with instead of things that they are.

When compared to other dots, pets compete just fine. They are a bit weaker in damage but offer more utility. A perfectly normal trade off.

Pet sorc is one of the top accessibility setups because of how simple and easy it is to use. Casting Daedric Prey on an enemy you want your pet to target is a lot easier than light attack weaving, which isn't something I'd advocate for removal from the game either. If you don't want to use Prey, you can just heavy attack your target and your pet will target that. Pressing a single button one time to get your pet to target a boss isn't difficult or clumsy.

Pet Sorcs and Arcanist Beam Builds are probably the two most used accessibility builds by a country mile because they're easy on the hands and simple to use.

Pets offer a new target for enemies to attack. That's utility. There's also a stun and a heal attached to different pets. They absolutely offer utility.

Yeah the damage has fallen a bit too behind due to power creep but that's easily fixed with numbers.

We absolutely do see broad use of sorc pets. There's more to this game than vet trials. You literally see them all the time.

Lekjih wrote: »

It reads like you're talking entirely about pvp. Mobs aren't deterred by anything. They will stand in conduit and get tanked by a clannfear just fine.

You're also arguing a logical fallacy - you say: "I have crunched the numbers and looked at the mechanical use and it's subpar, therefore scrap it. Also I don't like pets and don't use them"
We say "just buff it, it works fine, we run with it, we know"
You say "that wouldn't work" why? Because you say so. That's the only reason you give. It would work. There was a time people were getting Godslayer on HA two pets sorcs with daedroths, and popping accidental IRs in vAS. Oblivion, I bet it could be done now if were were bothered enough to try. Pets are fine. They just need to be something where you can slot it on one bar. Merciless resolve and similar can be slotted on either bar and still buff on both. Doing that immediately gives an extra skill slot and is probably all the buff needed. Same with warden bear tbh. He's a slightly more powerful dot with an aoe and an execute so he takes an ultimate slote but that's fine.

Also, necro summoning lore is not summoning daedra lore. It is necromancy. They pull the dead bodies from the earth and souls from aetherius or the local environments. Sorcs barter with daedric planes like Moonshadow and the Coloured Rooms. Necros have an awful class mechanic in corpses, daedric pets do not. They do not belong on the same class

No, I’m not talking about just PvP .. Vet PvE & Trials as well. The data on effectiveness and even use is pretty clear, Sorc pets don’t hold up.

It sounds like you’re saying “well I use Sorc pets to play just this sort of content so it should be good enough for everyone”.

I’ve explained why in this very thread if you took the time to go back and read. Buffing Sorc pets doesn’t work because their mechanics aren’t up to par, whether we’re talking about precise targeting in the rapid pace of combat, to the target prioritization of the AI, to the method with which the Sorc pets apply damage. None of those things are related to simple value buffs, they all go to the fundamental mechanics of the pets. And I’m not the only one who has said this, multiple others have said the same thing based on ESO data as well as their own use experiences; so no, it’s not just “because I said so.”

I’ve used pets in the past, the reason why I don’t use them now isn’t just because I woke up one day and simply “didn’t like them” or decided I didn’t like them because they aren’t cute; it’s because slot for slot, especially with subclassing, there are too many skills that perform better (all around).

I gave examples of DoT skills that out perform Sorc pets, I’ve explained mechanically why Sorc pets lag behind. Yes, there WAS a time when Sorc pets brought more useful stats to the gameplay, but even then, the gameplay identity of Sorc was not much more than HA behind pets, there was little variety to what a Sorc was or could be played effectively. If someone wants to play that play-style, that’s fine, but I don’t believe the whole class should be boxed into that.

I’m not saying you can’t play a Sorc with pets, what I’m saying is that you can’t be competitive anymore with them; whether that’s PvE or PvP. The game content has grown and evolved past what they were designed to be which is why not only myself but others have explained that in order to be competitive Sorc pets would need an entire mechanical re-write, which is unrealistic.

I agree, Necro lore isn’t the same as Sorc lore when it comes to summons, but, the Devs gave Necros the better mechanically behaving summons. Whether I like Necro lore more or not isn’t the point, it’s how the skills operate.

Sorc pets are only good for: a minor body block, some healing (which we can get elsewhere) and a laughable DoT .. Sorry but that’s not good enough anymore to be competitive. That might be enough for some casual, solo, players who are choosing not to play higher scale combat but that’s not reflective of everyone.

Which is why moving Sorc pets to a world skill line makes perfect sense. Anyone who wants to use Pets because they don’t need to be or want to be competitive in the game can slot them through the world line.

But it’s an absolute fact that, mechanically, Sorc pets do not compare to other skills in the game, DoT or otherwise.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pet Sorcs are hardly the only AOE losing out to Arcanist Beam in vet trials. In all other PvE content, Pet Sorcs hold up just fine. And Pet Sorcs have also went in and out of keeping up prior to the Arcanist Beam jail of the past 3 years.

Vet trials overly favoring Beam is not a design flaw with Pets. What's happening is that Beam Jail + Class Refresh is being used as an opportunity to delete a skill line that's plain not liked by a handful of people. Which completely ignores Pet Sorcs status as one of the most popular accessibility builds in the game because it's actually great in all other PvE content besides vet trials.

ETA
And a skill line not being to someone's personal tastes isn't a reason to delete many people's characters core identity for the past 11 years, especially when subclassing was created precisely so people could ditch skill lines they simply don't like.

I agree, Sorc pets aren’t the only skills losing out and falling behind but unlike other skills that can easily have values adjusted Sorc pets have an entire mechanical basis which is part of the problem.

What’s in the past is in the past, we can’t resurrect what used to be useful.

Subclassing was brought in to open the door on build diversity but it also had many unintended consequences that further “broke” both PvP & PvE; to the extent that it basically backed players into a corner; if they want to be competitive they “have” to subclass.

If you read the Dev statement on part of the goal with the class refreshes, they’re partly to encourage players to run solid base classes, without subclassing. Meaning elevating base classes so that they are more competitive and therefore more encouraging.

People, generally, don’t use Sorc pets because they don’t like them, they don’t like them because they don’t perform well. That’s the broader consensus. It’s not just a “feeling”, that’s facts.

If Sorc pets were good they’d be more abundant and that’s just the truth.

“Sorc pets hold up just fine” … based on what? I haven’t seen any evidence that’s true. I have seen zero evidence showing where Sorc pets bring or contribute something that’s at or above other skills in the game. .. Where’s the DPS rankings? Where’s the player utilization metrics? Where is anything showing where Sorc pets hold up?

Here, have a look at the top 100 current records for Cloudrest! .. out of 100 entries there are only 3 Sorcs .. 3! .. and none of them were running pets!

This isn’t PvP content. If you look at the consistency of not only class but slotted skills it’s clear that Sorc pets are not holding up just fine

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/8

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Citation needed.

On ESO-LOG and more professional strategy websites like skinnycheeks and eso-pvp-builds.com, you'll rarely see anyone using or recommending Sorc pets, and you'll rarely even see Sorc itself.

They are abundant.

Again.Look for ESO-LOG and will know Sorc is in a weak position, partly because the pet is dragging down the class.[/quote]

The trial DPS rankings where pretty much every single person is using Arcanist skills? We should use the fact that Arc is greatly overrepresented to delete a skill line you don't like? We're really going to sit there and pretend those metrics aren't at all heavily biased towards Arcanists? Where even the "mag sorcs" were running arc skills? That ranking? The dominance of arc says that arc is busted, not that sorc pets need to be deleted. You keep trying to use vet trials player metrics as an excuse to delete a class skill line you don't like.

Meanwhile in Vet Black Gem Foundry.....3 of the 4 magsorcs that had their skills were captured were pet sorcs.





You see pet sorcs everywhere in PvE outside of vet trials. And they're shutout of vet trials for the same reason a lot of other setups are: Arcanist is hard meta. Vet trials are not the only PvE that matters. And it's preposterous to use Arcanist being overrepresented as proof that one of the many class setups that are shutout by Arcanist needs to be deleted.

Vet Black Gem？GoD! Are we really going to lower our standards for discussion to this extent? Shouldn't it at least be HM Black Gem?

Even by veteran standards, pet usage lags behind Elemental Wall, a general skill, and even behind Concealed Weapon, a NB skill . Isn't this the biggest irony? A skill from another class has a higher usage rate than a Sorc's pet—doesn't that illustrate how ineffective pets are? In all Vet Black Gem data, only Stam-Templars and All-Sorc have a higher usage rate for other-class skills than for their own class.

And let's not deceive ourselves; you only chose MagicSorc, not All-Sorc.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Citation needed.

On ESO-LOG and more professional strategy websites like skinnycheeks and eso-pvp-builds.com, you'll rarely see anyone using or recommending Sorc pets, and you'll rarely even see Sorc itself.

That doesn't prove that people dislike pets. It proves that Arcanist has completely taken over the meta.

Again.Look for ESO-LOG and will know Sorc is in a weak position, partly because the pet is dragging down the class.

No. It's because of Arcanist. Literally the entire logs is dominated by Arcanist.

Vet Black Gem？GoD! Are we really going to lower our standards for discussion to this extent? Shouldn't it at least be HM Black Gem?

Even by veteran standards, pet usage lags behind Elemental Wall, a general skill, and even behind Concealed Weapon, a NB skill . Isn't this the biggest irony? A skill from another class has a higher usage rate than a Sorc's pet—doesn't that illustrate how ineffective pets are? In all Vet Black Gem data, only Stam-Templars and All-Sorc have a higher usage rate for other-class skills than for their own class.

And let's not deceive ourselves; you only chose MagicSorc, not All-Sorc.

How are dungeons a problem or "lower," in discussion. Do you think only trials count? Pet Sorcs have always been primiarly a mag sorc DPS build. They aren't tanks or healers. This whole discussion is about dps so why would I have included them? But sure, we can include stam dps and see that they too have swapped out for the beam.



The lack of diversity in meta has nothing to do with pets. It is that Arcanist skills are clearly better than everything else. Here's some more sorcs for another vet dungeon.




Most aren't running Sorcs at all because Arcanist outclasses everything in the game. They are hard meta. Putting Arcanist dominance on sorc pets when it's happening to a bunch of other setups too doesn't mesh with the constant presence of Arc skills in ESO Logs. We don't need to completely destroy class identity because the trial meta is overly strict due to the overperformance of Arcanist.

Arc is the dominant base class but even the lions share of those Arcanist builds are subclassed.

Look at the skills used, not necessarily the base class. You see ALOT of DK skills, you see a good amount of Templar skills, some Warden skills .. each of those classes shows consistency among the ability bars when you look at list after list.

Why are Sorc pets so limited? Think about it, even if we agree that Arc is the PvE meta, and I’ll agree that it is, if Sorc pets were still “keeping up” as you said we’d still see more than we do.

We’re looking for evidence that Sorc pets contribute or pull their weight in content anymore and the data shows that they don’t. If they did they’d be used a lot more and the fact is they just aren’t. Yes, some players run them but the vast majority don’t.

Not everyone is going to run the meta and when we look at the data that’s true. Just because a lot of players are running Arc as their base class doesn’t mean that they aren’t subclassing.

People will generally slot what is effective, even if it’s not the meta; but, it still has to be competitive.

In your screen shots for the various dungeons you’ve filtered out your results to show Sorcs (mag & stam) but by doing that you don’t really show where on the list they rank. When you’re looking at the data it’s more accurate to review it unfiltered because then the rankings are more reflective.

Arc is strong but, again, if you look at the total data see more than just Arc skills being used so it’s not accurate to say that Arc is just overpowered. People are using a slew of skills, now, I will agree that the amount of skills being used is smaller thanks to subclassing, but that’s part of what we’re trying to tell everyone.

Take the data from PvE and then compare to PvP … the Skills are vastly different; Arc is FAR from the meta in PvP. In either case, what we can see is a consistency among skills, whether someone is running the meta or not. Lava whip isn’t part of the meta build but we see it in PvE & PvP … In fact, Surprise Attack & Merciless Resolve are probably the most consistently used skills in both PvP & PvE (although that is meta).

I took at look at the Vet Black Gem Foundry and you also filtered that list because when I look under Vet the first Sorc on the list is 7th and that Sorc wasn’t running pets! The next Sorc was 14th and that one did run pets, we don’t see a Sorc place again until 22nd & 28th and neither of them ran pets …. Now if I a look at VH Black Gem a Sorc doesn’t appear until 70 and it’s unclear if they’re running pets because it’s blank. … and this makes sense because I’ve run BGF on V and VH, in fact I’m one of the few players I EVER see that mains that dungeons monster set and I can tell you Sorc pets are not going to contribute in that dungeon so I’m not surprised to see the full data reflect that.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/10?boss=2057

Here, look at VH Bal Sunnar, a Sorc isn’t even in the top 46 and Arcanaists only make up about 45% of the list.

VH Bal Sunnar is a great mechanical example of current game combat. The bosses are fast paced, lots of AoE; it requires heavy DPS & attention. If Sorc pets work just fine why do we literally see none here? And we can’t say it’s because of Arcanists.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/10?boss=2051

The reality of pet builds is that they sit at the nexus of several factors: they are typically easy-to-play builds (due to one-bar/HA and a small number of active abilities) that are recommended by a casual SEO ecosystem of influencers (we all know the ones) that unfortunately are largely uninformed about the realities of the modern game.

Said build guides tend to contain either ancient/outdated or outright incorrect information on game mechanics, etc. but they serve their purpose in funneling large numbers of casual players into the playstyle. Even when they would be better served by different builds that are no more demanding to play and that produce superior results (see Hyperioxes HA builds).

The pet system as a whole feels like THE most ancient and fossilized relic left in all of ESO. The skills feel straight out of 2013 and are not remotely in harmony with how the modern game is played.

And while we cannot abolish pets at the same time it is objectively unfair that the playstyle has colonized the very identity of the class. For lack of other ideas, it was basically canonized by the devs as "the accessibility class" whether actual Sorcerer players wanted that for themselves or not. However, in 2026, there are many other avenues to accessibility, and forcing one class to mechanically carry that entire project no longer makes sense (if it ever did).

Two bar slots, low-poly visual clutter, beyond weak active abilities, and tragic "AI" are simply not it. What they bring to the table is never worth that towering cost. If players are using those skills then they are doing it for the vibes rather than because it is actually the best choice for their role. And I say this as a Clannfear tank user who fully admits that it's about the vibes rather than because it's a good decision.

Make these things one bar slot. Update their active abilities to be actually worthwhile as well as mandatory to use in order to extract benefit from the creature. Undo all of the Frankenstein kludge passives (and sets) with the checks for permanent pets and make them into things that every Sorcerer using Summoning gets equal value from. Carve out more space in the line for non-pet users to make use of.

Give me some Bound Weapons that thematically do what Molten Armaments just did for DKs - replace my weapon with a spectral model (you know, like the classic actual Bound Weapons found in literally every mainline TES game!) and have it deal ticks of whatever damage type makes thematic sense on every weapon strike. Let me use this WITH Bound Armor as a separate skill rather than making me choose between the two, just as any self-respecting mainline TES Sorcerer can.

It will also continue to feel wild that in 2026 we cannot summon something so basic as a Flame Atronach, which, I would wager, if you administered a poll to all ESO players, would be the #1 top result for, "Which summon would you most like to see next?" It remains bizarre that we got the unpopular/annoying Clannfear, Twilight, and Scamp rather than the most iconic summons in the entire franchise.

Also, for the love of Talos, an Air Atronach morph!

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The reality of pet builds is that they sit at the nexus of several factors: they are typically easy-to-play builds (due to one-bar/HA and a small number of active abilities) that are recommended by a casual SEO ecosystem of influencers (we all know the ones) that unfortunately are largely uninformed about the realities of the modern game.

Said build guides tend to contain either ancient/outdated or outright incorrect information on game mechanics, etc. but they serve their purpose in funneling large numbers of casual players into the playstyle. Even when they would be better served by different builds that are no more demanding to play and that produce superior results (see Hyperioxes HA builds).

The pet system as a whole feels like THE most ancient and fossilized relic left in all of ESO. The skills feel straight out of 2013 and are not remotely in harmony with how the modern game is played.

And while we cannot abolish pets at the same time it is objectively unfair that the playstyle has colonized the very identity of the class. For lack of other ideas, it was basically canonized by the devs as "the accessibility class" whether actual Sorcerer players wanted that for themselves or not. However, in 2026, there are many other avenues to accessibility, and forcing one class to mechanically carry that entire project no longer makes sense (if it ever did).

Two bar slots, low-poly visual clutter, beyond weak active abilities, and tragic "AI" are simply not it. What they bring to the table is never worth that towering cost. If players are using those skills then they are doing it for the vibes rather than because it is actually the best choice for their role. And I say this as a Clannfear tank user who fully admits that it's about the vibes rather than because it's a good decision.

Make these things one bar slot. Update their active abilities to be actually worthwhile as well as mandatory to use in order to extract benefit from the creature. Undo all of the Frankenstein kludge passives (and sets) with the checks for permanent pets and make them into things that every Sorcerer using Summoning gets equal value from. Carve out more space in the line for non-pet users to make use of.

Give me some Bound Weapons that thematically do what Molten Armaments just did for DKs - replace my weapon with a spectral model (you know, like the classic actual Bound Weapons found in literally every mainline TES game!) and have it deal ticks of whatever damage type makes thematic sense on every weapon strike. Let me use this WITH Bound Armor as a separate skill rather than making me choose between the two, just as any self-respecting mainline TES Sorcerer can.

It will also continue to feel wild that in 2026 we cannot summon something so basic as a Flame Atronach, which, I would wager, if you administered a poll to all ESO players, would be the #1 top result for, "Which summon would you most like to see next?" It remains bizarre that we got the unpopular/annoying Clannfear, Twilight, and Scamp rather than the most iconic summons in the entire franchise.

Also, for the love of Talos, an Air Atronach morph!

We’re not suggesting that pets be removed from the game, what we’re suggesting is reorganizing them under an independent world skill line which would allow any Sorc that wants to use them to do so without having to subclass.

In this way Pets can still be available for those who want the playstyle but the Sorc class itself can be opened up to be properly tuned to the needs of current combat.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

That doesn't prove that people dislike pets. It proves that Arcanist has completely taken over the meta.

In PvP, Arcana isn't mainstream, and in PvE, as others have mentioned, there are other popular class skills besides Arcana, and pets are far from being the popular class，even unpopular . Don't forget, in previous PvE statistics, Daedric Summoning's usage rate was even lower than some heal and tank lines.

How are dungeons a problem or "lower," in discussion. Do you think only trials count?

Because the lower the difficulty, the less elaborate the build required, and therefore the less valuable it is as a reference.
The controversy surrounding pet builds mainly focuses on hight to endgame difficulty, while vet dungeons at most reach medium difficulty.
Trials Trifecta > HM Trials > Dungeons Trifecta > HM Dungeons > Vet Trials > Vet Dungeons > Normal Trials > Normal Dungeons > World Bosses > Other Open World

Pet Sorcs have always been primiarly a mag sorc DPS build.

No, they aren't. Logs prior to version U46 show that both Endurance Warlocks and Mana Warlocks were forced to use pets.

Most aren't running Sorcs at all because Arcanist outclasses everything in the game. They are hard meta. Putting Arcanist dominance on sorc pets when it's happening to a bunch of other setups too doesn't mesh with the constant presence of Arc skills in ESO Logs. We don't need to completely destroy class identity because the trial meta is overly strict due to the overperformance of Arcanist.

Yes, Arc is strong, but that's not the point, because no other class is forced to use so many other class skills and general abilities like Sorc. Sorc's weakness is indeed due to pets. Demanding the removal of pets won't destroy Sorc, it will save it.

In PvE alone, Sorc's Dark Magic is the least popular skill line, competing with Shadow for last place. With Daedric Summoning minus pets, the only usable skills in PvE are Haunting Curse and Bound Armaments. Before u48, Bound Armaments didn't even provide Major Prophecy and Major Savagery, and even now, its damage and effect lag behind the similar Merciless Resolve.

As for Storm Calling, it's a relatively popular Sorc skill line in PvE, but even doubling its usage rate, it still lags behind other class skill lines. And this line doesn't have many usable skills in PvE. You'll find it difficult to use Overload with 500 Ultimate Points, and Overload is affected by Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet. Mages' Fury is the worst class of execution skill in PvE. Hurricane is okay, but the damage isn't outstanding. Lightning Splash was also terrible before its last buff, and even now, the poor casting animation and latency make it difficult to use. Surge... is a joke compared to Tome-Bearer's Inspiration, New Molten Weapons, etc.
And, if you only choose Storm Calling, you'll find almost no skills that can be placed in the front bar, making Expert Mage practically useless, not to mention that Fighters Guild's Slayer provides more damage than Expert Mage.

Once again, removing a Sorc pet isn't destroying it, but rather rescuing it. Besides, I don't see any problem with moving pets to the General Skills line; those who enjoy playing as zookeepers can still choose pets from the General Skills line ,even not worrying about the number of class lines.

Of course, if the developers could give us a clear solution that accommodates both pet and non-pet Sorc before the Sorc rework, we could end this debate.

The petsorc playstyle is popular with players, no one can have missed that they're everywhere, ruffling people's feathers in towns. If they're not recommended by endgamers due to having fallen behind, all it means is that they need to be updated to the same level of effectiveness as the meta combinations. Ditto for any other line that's falling behind. In fact, is this not the reason for the class refresh?

IviRo wrote: »

There are so many different Daedra in the TES world that I want to summon, but you are so attached to the two that are assigned to one class and one branch, instead of thinking about expanding this system by adding the Conjuration line to the mage guild or expanding it through Grimoires.
I'm not against pets, I want to run around with them, oh Mephala, I've fallen so in love with Benekins and really want to summon them and fire atronachs (but for solo playthroughs).

People have suggested in previous threads that skill styles for the daedric summoning line expand to include other types of daedra, and I think that's a good idea. Perhaps we can also change some morphs to this end. There's no need for two separate daedric conjuring lines if we can use skill styles/morphs to customise our preferred conjurations within the sorc class.

Eg. how about replacing the Twilight Tormentor with a different type of daedra? I don't know if they are or have ever been as popular as the Matriarch, but it would make sense for a pure DPS morph to take a different form altogether.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

The petsorc playstyle is popular with players, no one can have missed that they're everywhere, ruffling people's feathers in towns. If they're not recommended by endgamers due to having fallen behind, all it means is that they need to be updated to the same level of effectiveness as the meta combinations. Ditto for any other line that's falling behind. In fact, is this not the reason for the class refresh?

IviRo wrote: »

There are so many different Daedra in the TES world that I want to summon, but you are so attached to the two that are assigned to one class and one branch, instead of thinking about expanding this system by adding the Conjuration line to the mage guild or expanding it through Grimoires.
I'm not against pets, I want to run around with them, oh Mephala, I've fallen so in love with Benekins and really want to summon them and fire atronachs (but for solo playthroughs).

People have suggested in previous threads that skill styles for the daedric summoning line expand to include other types of daedra, and I think that's a good idea. Perhaps we can also change some morphs to this end. There's no need for two separate daedric conjuring lines if we can use skill styles/morphs to customise our preferred conjurations within the sorc class.

Eg. how about replacing the Twilight Tormentor with a different type of daedra? I don't know if they are or have ever been as popular as the Matriarch, but it would make sense for a pure DPS morph to take a different form altogether.

Moving Sorc pets to an independent Conjuring line would enable more Daedric types to summon as well as more creative mechanics to go with them.

The line could be purely focused on pet summoning so rather than 2 or 3 we could have 4 or 5 plus an Ult and dedicated passives. Then skill styles could be applied to the pets as well.

When Scribing became a base-game feature, I was under the presumption that they would overhaul it and really do something impressive.

Like a conversion to Spellcrafting, which would open the door to a Conjuration line, but they have done nothing with the opportunity.

BretonMage wrote: »

The petsorc playstyle is popular with players, no one can have missed that they're everywhere, ruffling people's feathers in towns. If they're not recommended by endgamers due to having fallen behind, all it means is that they need to be updated to the same level of effectiveness as the meta combinations. Ditto for any other line that's falling behind. In fact, is this not the reason for the class refresh?

IviRo wrote: »

There are so many different Daedra in the TES world that I want to summon, but you are so attached to the two that are assigned to one class and one branch, instead of thinking about expanding this system by adding the Conjuration line to the mage guild or expanding it through Grimoires.
I'm not against pets, I want to run around with them, oh Mephala, I've fallen so in love with Benekins and really want to summon them and fire atronachs (but for solo playthroughs).

People have suggested in previous threads that skill styles for the daedric summoning line expand to include other types of daedra, and I think that's a good idea. Perhaps we can also change some morphs to this end. There's no need for two separate daedric conjuring lines if we can use skill styles/morphs to customise our preferred conjurations within the sorc class.

Eg. how about replacing the Twilight Tormentor with a different type of daedra? I don't know if they are or have ever been as popular as the Matriarch, but it would make sense for a pure DPS morph to take a different form altogether.

Pet farming is not as popular as you think. If there are a few people running around with a bunch of pets, it does not mean that everyone is running around with them, as pets create the illusion that there are many of them.

As for morphs, this is again a somewhat limited view.
For example, there is a pet A, from which we get either B or C. You try to force a choice, but what if I want to play with morphs B and C? What should I do in that case?

I will repeat myself once again: you need to look at this more broadly, rather than imposing new restrictions in order to get tons of reasons why we can't summon more different Daedra and why we have to choose between electric and air Atronachs.

You are limiting your own possibilities instead of expanding the boundaries of gaming opportunities, but you don't want to sacrifice anything in order to evolve into something more than just 2x pet gameplay with limited choices.

At this point I'm convinced this person is ragebaiting. I was in overland Apocrypha today and everyone had two sorc pets. Some even had bears. Everyone bar none. I counted 12 different players in half an hour of pootling around scrying and digging up. I want skill styles so I can have wolves instead of bears, air atros instead of storm, fire atros instead of scamps (and I really want a lucent, parasaur or spinosaur clannfear), but none of that means cutting the line from the class that has had it what, 11 years now?

It's so depressing that some people are so limited in their vision and so fixated on just two skills.
Now we could go and count how many players are running around with pets that can simply level up these abilities, or casual players, but we will certainly completely ignore reasonable solutions and not seek a compromise. Why should we? We don't care how many players have left the game because of the imposed mechanics with creatures.

If someone left the game because they didn't like every single skill on a single class then they were never that into the game in the first place. I certainly don't think the game should be designed around people who so easily quit over loyal players that have played the game for 10-11 years. If this game gets utterly destroyed for me by the outright deletion of any skill line that I use with no respect shown to the people that use it, then that's an easy uninstall for me.

IDC if they change underused morphs or let them be one barred or whatever but the entire skill line being destroyed? Absolutely not.

I think it is extremely disrespectful to delete a core identity of any of the classes for no good reason at all. And no, subclassing made the meta too narrow is not a reason to delete pure class identity.