Imperial or Nord for dk pvp?

Nyseto · February 16

It seems as if Nord has even better sustain because of faster ultimate generation paired with the passive that restores resources?

Thumbless_Bot · February 16

Nord for pvp. Not sure about pve... but unless it's a ganker the answer for pvp is always nord.. imho...

Wup_sa · February 16

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Nord for pvp. Not sure about pve... but unless it's a ganker the answer for pvp is always nord.. imho...

Wouldn't sleep on argonian either. That potion sustain + healing is great too.

Kartalin · February 16

Of the two I almost always go with imperial for the cost reduction and raw stats. Unless you just want to build a super tank and go all in on armor and health.

Otherwise depending on how I'm building it's Argonian (all around/flexible), Breton (for mag heavy), or Wood elf (stam heavy).

Thumbless_Bot · February 16

All good suggestions. I would recommend trying a few without putting too much time into leveling them... or do that and make them all crafters at the end.

You could always pay for change tokens but where's the fun in that.

El_Borracho · February 17

Both are good, depending on your setup. The Nord ulti generation is nice if you are going for heavy burst. I prefer the Imperial for the reasons @Kartalin stated as more and more players are building to weather the gank/burst attack and the Imperial can sustain better in prolonged attacks

Nyseto · February 18

El_Borracho wrote: »

Both are good, depending on your setup. The Nord ulti generation is nice if you are going for heavy burst. I prefer the Imperial for the reasons @Kartalin stated as more and more players are building to weather the gank/burst attack and the Imperial can sustain better in prolonged attacks

You're saying imperial is better for surviving ganks? Nord has more resistances

Wup_sa · February 18

Nyseto wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Both are good, depending on your setup. The Nord ulti generation is nice if you are going for heavy burst. I prefer the Imperial for the reasons @Kartalin stated as more and more players are building to weather the gank/burst attack and the Imperial can sustain better in prolonged attacks

You're saying imperial is better for surviving ganks? Nord has more resistances

I've played both and imo nord is better than imperial for dk in every way. You get your ult back far quicker which gives you far more sustain and nord is a tankier race than an imperial so you are harder to kill.

Also to note that imperials sustain passive that reduces all ability cost by 6% is not very noticeable since sustain is so easy.

Thumbless_Bot · February 18

Nyseto wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Both are good, depending on your setup. The Nord ulti generation is nice if you are going for heavy burst. I prefer the Imperial for the reasons @Kartalin stated as more and more players are building to weather the gank/burst attack and the Imperial can sustain better in prolonged attacks

You're saying imperial is better for surviving ganks? Nord has more resistances

I also prefer Burger King to McDonald's bitninhave had them bith many times.

Point is, Maybe you should try them both out. That's the general consensus here from people who have done just that.

Urzigurumash · February 18

Kartalin wrote: »

Of the two I almost always go with imperial for the cost reduction and raw stats. Unless you just want to build a super tank and go all in on armor and health.

Otherwise depending on how I'm building it's Argonian (all around/flexible), Breton (for mag heavy), or Wood elf (stam heavy).

Thing with Bosmer is the Pen Bonus is weak while Corrosive is up, less of an issue if Corrosive continues to no longer buff DoTs. Another issue is that Stam Regen is disabled when blocking with a Shield, but that's like pre 2020 StamDK logic.

Surprised nobody's mentioned Orc/Altmer and Dunmer? They're as good as Imperial imo, all tied for 2nd below Nord.

But also a reminder from yesteryear, Argonian was the meta for sDK prior to the big race revision of 2019, maybe mDK too. (of course the true sDK is long extinct, and the semi sDK totally gone in a few weeks right?)

El_Borracho · February 18

Nyseto wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Both are good, depending on your setup. The Nord ulti generation is nice if you are going for heavy burst. I prefer the Imperial for the reasons @Kartalin stated as more and more players are building to weather the gank/burst attack and the Imperial can sustain better in prolonged attacks

You're saying imperial is better for surviving ganks? Nord has more resistances

Again, it depends on your setup. I have a Nord DK that also runs Mighty Chudan and the Last Ayleid King that has TONS of resistances because the setup is a high pressure DOT build. Its meant to be more of a solo or small group (4 and under) DD. I have an Imperial DK that is more of a traditional DD that puts out more direct damage. Its set up to run primarily in a group but can do just fine solo in most situations. The Imperial swaps between Monomyth and Pale Order depending on if I am in a group or not. Both are setup to play in a melee range for sustained fights as opposed to the hit and run style. It really depends on what I am doing that day in Cyrodiil

Just because the Nord has more resistances doesn't mean it will always have more survivability than other races. If anything, I chose the Nord for the ulti generation and not the resistances in PVP

MincMincMinc · February 18

In the case of dawnbreaker nord and imperial both have similar times to cast ult. Nord gets the ult gen, but the cost reduction tends to make dawnbreaker cost less to the point both would have the same cooldown.

Alot of people have pushed imperial as the best for 1vX for the cost reduction, however IMO after trying alot of races last patch I dont think this is the case. The cost reduction saves ALOT of resources, however the current state of the game already has too much recovery. For hybridization zos basically started doubling all of the sources of recovery. Monster 1x bonuses started giving mag AND stam. Then we have things like wretched giving basically 900 recovery combined compared to most wd sets giving roughly 450 on a proc cooldown timer. Combine all that flat regen with zos's increased % recoveries like the 30% major buffs, warden's animal 20% bonuses, everyone running medium armor for more %stam, etc.

Remember that cost reduction's main purpose is to smooth out your costs so your peak costs dont spike your sustain down the drain. Sustain is so easy now adays that this smoothness really doesn't matter.

TLDR you should be using your racial choice for tanking or damage. Theory wise we are in an absurd burst meta so we really need more burst or more tank stats. So either nord or khajiit.....Khajiit crit damage+healing is basically a double passive.

Nyseto · February 18

El_Borracho wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Both are good, depending on your setup. The Nord ulti generation is nice if you are going for heavy burst. I prefer the Imperial for the reasons @Kartalin stated as more and more players are building to weather the gank/burst attack and the Imperial can sustain better in prolonged attacks

You're saying imperial is better for surviving ganks? Nord has more resistances

Again, it depends on your setup. I have a Nord DK that also runs Mighty Chudan and the Last Ayleid King that has TONS of resistances because the setup is a high pressure DOT build. Its meant to be more of a solo or small group (4 and under) DD. I have an Imperial DK that is more of a traditional DD that puts out more direct damage. Its set up to run primarily in a group but can do just fine solo in most situations. The Imperial swaps between Monomyth and Pale Order depending on if I am in a group or not. Both are setup to play in a melee range for sustained fights as opposed to the hit and run style. It really depends on what I am doing that day in Cyrodiil

Just because the Nord has more resistances doesn't mean it will always have more survivability than other races. If anything, I chose the Nord for the ulti generation and not the resistances in PVP

Do you run mighty and king for pvp as well?

Urzigurumash · February 19

Wup_sa wrote: »

You get your ult back far quicker which gives you far more sustain and nord is a tankier race than an imperial so you are harder to kill.

I think this might undersell what being tankier does for you as a DK, in theory. DK is or was The Tank Class, built with a Tank engine. So when it comes to fundamental build questions of what's best for the Class, makes sense to look at what's best for a PvE Tank DK. In other words, if you can't discern what's best in PvP, take a look at what performs best in the more predictable, "solved" half of the game, there's a solid chance that stronger performance will be reflected in PvP too. A lot of people will disagree with this or not understand what I mean, many people have always hated my ideas on this topic

Urzigurumash · February 19

MincMincMinc wrote: »

TLDR you should be using your racial choice for tanking or damage. Theory wise we are in an absurd burst meta so we really need more burst or more tank stats. So either nord or khajiit.....Khajiit crit damage+healing is basically a double passive.

This gets into some complicated territory. On the one hand, DK is and always has been the ONLY class with NO unique buff to Crit Chance or Crit Damage. So that makes one think, the Crit Race is the worst choice, Cat has less Synergy and Comparative Advantage on DK than on any other Class.

But on the other hand, each new Percentile Bonus weakens the effect of the previous. One 10% Bonus has a stronger effect than 2. In other words, you gain maximum efficiency by chosing the most different kinds of Percentile Bonuses rather than stacking 1 kind.

But, the more Integer Bonuses of a type, the stronger a corresponding Percentile Bonus. So the Minor Brutality is why I think Orc and Altmer are contenders. Their Weapon/Spell Damage Integer Bonus is 10% stronger on DK and Plar than on the other classes.

Some of my ideas may be way out of date, and I have no idea about the new version of the Class.

Thumbless_Bot · February 19

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

TLDR you should be using your racial choice for tanking or damage. Theory wise we are in an absurd burst meta so we really need more burst or more tank stats. So either nord or khajiit.....Khajiit crit damage+healing is basically a double passive.

This gets into some complicated territory. On the one hand, DK is and always has been the ONLY class with NO unique buff to Crit Chance or Crit Damage. So that makes one think, the Crit Race is the worst choice, Cat has less Synergy and Comparative Advantage on DK than on any other Class.

But on the other hand, each new Percentile Bonus weakens the effect of the previous. One 10% Bonus has a stronger effect than 2. In other words, you gain maximum efficiency by chosing the most different kinds of Percentile Bonuses rather than stacking 1 kind.

But, the more Integer Bonuses of a type, the stronger a corresponding Percentile Bonus. So the Minor Brutality is why I think Orc and Altmer are contenders. Their Weapon/Spell Damage Integer Bonus is 10% stronger on DK and Plar than on the other classes.

Some of my ideas may be way out of date, and I have no idea about the new version of the Class.

The weapon damage buff, 4 second heal and sprint speed boost all make orc a great race.

Again, players should try them all and find what works for them... as you seem to have done.

MincMincMinc · February 19

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

TLDR you should be using your racial choice for tanking or damage. Theory wise we are in an absurd burst meta so we really need more burst or more tank stats. So either nord or khajiit.....Khajiit crit damage+healing is basically a double passive.

This gets into some complicated territory. On the one hand, DK is and always has been the ONLY class with NO unique buff to Crit Chance or Crit Damage. So that makes one think, the Crit Race is the worst choice, Cat has less Synergy and Comparative Advantage on DK than on any other Class.

But on the other hand, each new Percentile Bonus weakens the effect of the previous. One 10% Bonus has a stronger effect than 2. In other words, you gain maximum efficiency by chosing the most different kinds of Percentile Bonuses rather than stacking 1 kind.

But, the more Integer Bonuses of a type, the stronger a corresponding Percentile Bonus. So the Minor Brutality is why I think Orc and Altmer are contenders. Their Weapon/Spell Damage Integer Bonus is 10% stronger on DK and Plar than on the other classes.

Some of my ideas may be way out of date, and I have no idea about the new version of the Class.

Even with the 27% crit chance with your major savagery you will still choose things like shadow, khajiit, Fighting Finesse because these sources are unbalanced and double dip on crit damage AND healing. Otherwise damage wise the crit damage usually starts beating out the WD around 40%chance ON A PARSE. This is very important because in pvp you are not parsing, you are doing a burst combo which needs to line up damage. Thus you shouldn't just build around assuming a constant average. In dot heavy setups you can assume it is going to average out, but in burst metas you have to go on the assumption that in your killing blow combo you will happen to have crits line up by chance.

Healing wise you should check the new skills to see if they even scale with WD. For instance on stamsorc critsurge normally accounts for 1/3 of your heals right up there with vigor and healing soul. If you were to stack weapon damage you wouldnt be boosting 1/3 of your heals, but with the crit choices you would.

Honestly you should check out build editors like UESP has a full build calculator if you enter in all your setup correctly. Then you can compare choices using the "effective power" calculation which can calculate based on your target's stats on the first page. It makes it real easy to see simple gear changes like whether one race vs another nets you more damage. Or whether you should run mace or axe. Sharp or nirn.

EDIT: Just to put it in perspective lets say on UESP your effective power against an enemy is 15630 with warrior. Then shadow averages to 15570 (@27%chance) You would say warrior is better, but in reality for Burst pvp combos if things line up and your two or three skills happen to crit they are doing 16750 each.......So something like a dotdk you could assume yeah WD would be better. For something like a dizzy leap stamdk type burst build you would say crit damage is better.

El_Borracho · February 19

Nyseto wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Both are good, depending on your setup. The Nord ulti generation is nice if you are going for heavy burst. I prefer the Imperial for the reasons @Kartalin stated as more and more players are building to weather the gank/burst attack and the Imperial can sustain better in prolonged attacks

You're saying imperial is better for surviving ganks? Nord has more resistances

Again, it depends on your setup. I have a Nord DK that also runs Mighty Chudan and the Last Ayleid King that has TONS of resistances because the setup is a high pressure DOT build. Its meant to be more of a solo or small group (4 and under) DD. I have an Imperial DK that is more of a traditional DD that puts out more direct damage. Its set up to run primarily in a group but can do just fine solo in most situations. The Imperial swaps between Monomyth and Pale Order depending on if I am in a group or not. Both are setup to play in a melee range for sustained fights as opposed to the hit and run style. It really depends on what I am doing that day in Cyrodiil

Just because the Nord has more resistances doesn't mean it will always have more survivability than other races. If anything, I chose the Nord for the ulti generation and not the resistances in PVP

Do you run mighty and king for pvp as well?

Yes. That build is meant for 1vX in close combat so it needs the higher resistances. It does not put out as much direct damage as the other DK build, but it is also not a tank. It basically puts out DOTs and accumulates ulti for a burst finish.

DK can be a great PVP build for all of the reasons above, especially if you build with passives and skills in mind.

Urzigurumash · February 20

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

TLDR you should be using your racial choice for tanking or damage. Theory wise we are in an absurd burst meta so we really need more burst or more tank stats. So either nord or khajiit.....Khajiit crit damage+healing is basically a double passive.

This gets into some complicated territory. On the one hand, DK is and always has been the ONLY class with NO unique buff to Crit Chance or Crit Damage. So that makes one think, the Crit Race is the worst choice, Cat has less Synergy and Comparative Advantage on DK than on any other Class.

But on the other hand, each new Percentile Bonus weakens the effect of the previous. One 10% Bonus has a stronger effect than 2. In other words, you gain maximum efficiency by chosing the most different kinds of Percentile Bonuses rather than stacking 1 kind.

But, the more Integer Bonuses of a type, the stronger a corresponding Percentile Bonus. So the Minor Brutality is why I think Orc and Altmer are contenders. Their Weapon/Spell Damage Integer Bonus is 10% stronger on DK and Plar than on the other classes.

Some of my ideas may be way out of date, and I have no idea about the new version of the Class.

Even with the 27% crit chance with your major savagery you will still choose things like shadow, khajiit, Fighting Finesse because these sources are unbalanced and double dip on crit damage AND healing. Otherwise damage wise the crit damage usually starts beating out the WD around 40%chance ON A PARSE. This is very important because in pvp you are not parsing, you are doing a burst combo which needs to line up damage. Thus you shouldn't just build around assuming a constant average. In dot heavy setups you can assume it is going to average out, but in burst metas you have to go on the assumption that in your killing blow combo you will happen to have crits line up by chance.

Healing wise you should check the new skills to see if they even scale with WD. For instance on stamsorc critsurge normally accounts for 1/3 of your heals right up there with vigor and healing soul. If you were to stack weapon damage you wouldnt be boosting 1/3 of your heals, but with the crit choices you would.

Honestly you should check out build editors like UESP has a full build calculator if you enter in all your setup correctly. Then you can compare choices using the "effective power" calculation which can calculate based on your target's stats on the first page. It makes it real easy to see simple gear changes like whether one race vs another nets you more damage. Or whether you should run mace or axe. Sharp or nirn.
EDIT: Just to put it in perspective lets say on UESP your effective power against an enemy is 15630 with warrior. Then shadow averages to 15570 (@27%chance) You would say warrior is better, but in reality for Burst pvp combos if things line up and your two or three skills happen to crit they are doing 16750 each.......So something like a dotdk you could assume yeah WD would be better. For something like a dizzy leap stamdk type burst build you would say crit damage is better.

Well these aren't DK build elements. I view the question as what interacts the most strongly with DK class passives basically. Like Khajiits Regens dont interact with DK at all (or didnt other than Major Fortitude and Minor Endurance on Dragonblood), but do with other classes, Nords Ult Gen most strongly interacts with DK, etc. And like I said another way I see it is you want to match a Class/Race Percentile Bonus to a Race/Class Integer Bonus, in theory, when you can.

Khajiit is the meta for probably everything right now, I would believe that yes. Everything I'm playing right now would definitely be better on it 😂 That might actually work the other way too, Khajiit being meta reinforces Assassination being meta.

Now that I think of it Crit Surge's Healing was pre Hybridization StamSorcs only unique benefit from Crit wasn't it, but yeah it's a good one. On the other hand early StamDK iirc only had access to Crit Heals in Vigor and Momentum, since even the HP Scaled Green Dragonblood Critted off Spell Crit as did Cauterize. The subclass benefited from investments into Crit Chance less than all other subclasses - as with Knight in like every game that has Crit right? Another early feature that differentiated the lighter Berserker / Ranger StamSorc to the heavier Fighter / Knight StamDK.