When will Selling/Laundering Limits Increase for Thieving

ItsYourFuneral · February 17

The daily limits for selling or laundering for thieving are too low at this point. I can steal about 200 items in about 30 minutes, sell or launder 140 each. Another 30 minutes of stealing for 200 items and I'm already at the capped. Which then carries over into the next day as well. There was a Mini Crime Wave Event for a few days not too long ago, with the limits raised a little, but not enough to make a noticeable impact. When will the limits be raised? I feel this area of the game has been overlooked drastically. They don't need to tweak and peak anything regarding thieving. Just raise the limits.

Radiate77 · February 17

Raising the limits would be just the beginning of what we need. It’s odd how little our crime systems have received in updates.

Once upon a time we were promised grand things, like having a PvP justice system where players could play as guards…

Yet “play how you want” doesn’t include bringing about justice in Tamriel, funny enough. Yet in Skyrim you can side with the guard to hunt down and purge the Dark Brotherhood.

Realistically though, when was the last time we saw an improvement to Heists or Black Sacraments? There are so many different regions that have been introduced to the game, yet we’re still stuck running the same caves.

ItsYourFuneral · February 17

Would be nice if they addressed the entire Justice/Crime system, but I figured baby steps... raise the limits

Gabriel_H · February 17

Radiate77 wrote: »

Raising the limits would be just the beginning of what we need. It’s odd how little our crime systems have received in updates.

Once upon a time we were promised grand things, like having a PvP justice system where players could play as guards…

Yet “play how you want” doesn’t include bringing about justice in Tamriel, funny enough. Yet in Skyrim you can side with the guard to hunt down and purge the Dark Brotherhood.

Realistically though, when was the last time we saw an improvement to Heists or Black Sacraments? There are so many different regions that have been introduced to the game, yet we’re still stuck running the same caves.

Thieves Guild DLC is coming. Keep them fingers crossed.

RexyCat · February 18

ItsYourFuneral wrote: »

Would be nice if they addressed the entire Justice/Crime system, but I figured baby steps... raise the limits

Rising the limit on Launder and Fencing would cause issues with how the economy in this game is meant to work. By economy I don't only mean Gold circulation, but also how items are respawned.

I really wish when players suggest things that they also would actually think about possible issues their suggestion could cause and not only "I want this changed...".

With how Justice system work today it is possible to players to kill NPC and farm again same NPC within a short time span (and naturally pickpocket before that), add how this would cause performance issues if NPCs (literally walking containers) would now need a much longer loot list (to make it possible to get more loot from pickpocket or otherwise increasing Fencing and Launder would make those NPCs and static containers with owned items empty too fast), not to forget how some players will systematically farm certain NPCs this way and prevent other players to even have a chance to pickpocket or kill certain NPCs that are necessary for daily Dark Brotherhood task.

As for PvP in PvE I would think that this also are very much related to issues with player that would totally opt out like Duelling and how Duelling for years have been complained about as it also impact Way shrine as some players seem to think it is a good idea to stand close to WS when doing duels instead of moving to a less populated area.

Hunting down players with a bounty system would also mean that there would be a need for a redesign of how this game work and also plan to avoid abuses where players behave like in Imperial City. Imperial City (and Cyrodiil) have special debuff for Health Pool vs overland PvE which is one reason some players want to have duel as most players that are doing PvE aren't using traits on armour to reduce incoming damage from other players.

In PvE Critical damage (and critical chance) where only designed with players attacking NPCs and not other players as the main focus while both IC and Cyrodiil had to adjust HP to make it less of a direct kill from just one hit.

Dagoth_Rac · February 18

Radiate77 wrote: »

Once upon a time we were promised grand things, like having a PvP justice system where players could play as guards…

Yet “play how you want” doesn’t include bringing about justice in Tamriel, funny enough. Yet in Skyrim you can side with the guard to hunt down and purge the Dark Brotherhood.

The game's core audience has never been all that warm to PvP and having a very popular aspect of the single-player game involve the risk of getting pulled into PvP just tested really, really badly and was scrapped. In early days of game, devs really expected endgame to be PvP. Like, the zones and main story content was level-gated to get you to exactly Level 50 and then Cyrodiil was to be the bulk of the post-L50 gameplay. But you go to war with the playerbase you have, not the playerbase you want. And a lot of the late beta development and first 2 or 3 years of game was ZOS redesigning a lot of game to focus more on the casual PvE audience that had embraced game instead of the Dark Age of Camelot inspired and PvP-heavy MMO crowd they expected.

They are bringing back harder overland PvE, which was there for first year of game (VR zones and initial Craglorn release). So maybe they feel game is ready for some of the stuff planned in early days that was abandoned due to players not engaging with it. So open-world Justice PvP is not necessarily off the table. But I wouldn't get my hopes up. It is not the kind of thing that had 487-page request threads like harder overland PvE did.

I think a good compromise would be to raise fence limit, but if you go past existing fence limit, you get a big warning and if you proceed, you can no longer decline duals. So no open world ganking of players who stole a sweetroll. No lopsided ganging up on players. But the risk of a certain structured and gentlemanly PvP if you want to go all in on thievery lifestyle.

Radiate77 · February 18

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Once upon a time we were promised grand things, like having a PvP justice system where players could play as guards…

Yet “play how you want” doesn’t include bringing about justice in Tamriel, funny enough. Yet in Skyrim you can side with the guard to hunt down and purge the Dark Brotherhood.

The game's core audience has never been all that warm to PvP and having a very popular aspect of the single-player game involve the risk of getting pulled into PvP just tested really, really badly and was scrapped. In early days of game, devs really expected endgame to be PvP. Like, the zones and main story content was level-gated to get you to exactly Level 50 and then Cyrodiil was to be the bulk of the post-L50 gameplay. But you go to war with the playerbase you have, not the playerbase you want. And a lot of the late beta development and first 2 or 3 years of game was ZOS redesigning a lot of game to focus more on the casual PvE audience that had embraced game instead of the Dark Age of Camelot inspired and PvP-heavy MMO crowd they expected.

They are bringing back harder overland PvE, which was there for first year of game (VR zones and initial Craglorn release). So maybe they feel game is ready for some of the stuff planned in early days that was abandoned due to players not engaging with it. So open-world Justice PvP is not necessarily off the table. But I wouldn't get my hopes up. It is not the kind of thing that had 487-page request threads like harder overland PvE did.

I think a good compromise would be to raise fence limit, but if you go past existing fence limit, you get a big warning and if you proceed, you can no longer decline duals. So no open world ganking of players who stole a sweetroll. No lopsided ganging up on players. But the risk of a certain structured and gentlemanly PvP if you want to go all in on thievery lifestyle.

PvP can mean any number of Player vs Player interactions, just look at Tales of Tribute.

You don’t need to pummel someone to death to arrest them for committing crimes. It could be as simple as a game of tag, where one person tackles the other and has to escort them to lock-up.

spartaxoxo · February 18

RexyCat wrote: »

Rising the limit on Launder and Fencing would cause issues with how the economy in this game is meant to work. By economy I don't only mean Gold circulation, but also how items are respawned.

They would not need to overhaul the whole justice system to raise the fence limit. It would just be more of the same thing. The only concern is coin and fencing would remain a suboptimal method for obtaining coin so it would probably be fine.

Eliahnus · February 18

Why not go in with another character?
= limits x2

DenverRalphy · February 18

I don't think the limit is too low per se. But what needs to be changed is that non-treasure items need to be charged by the stack and not by the number of items in the stack. ie.. a stack of 20 decorative wax should should only consume one launder allotment.

Tandor · February 18

ItsYourFuneral wrote: »

I can steal about 200 items in about 30 minutes, sell or launder 140 each. Another 30 minutes of stealing for 200 items and I'm already at the capped.

I wonder how many players are regularly achieving that (and without addons if they are relevant to stealing, I wouldn't know).

It's a bit like the players who say they complete a weekly harvesting endeavour in 10 minutes...

I'm glad that ZOS put caps on these things.

As for the separate issue of PvP in the Justice system, ZOS were very clear that the reason they didn't implement that was because they couldn't come up with a system that wouldn't be exploited.

ItsYourFuneral · 12:19AM

@RexyCat I have thought about it. Increasing the limits would not have the game-breaking concerns to the economy that you think. If you think that there isnt any players hard farming certain npcs for specific loot currently. You are mistaken.

@Tandor there are entire guilds comprised of players focused on thieving. I happened to be in one of them. I really enjoy thieving, and my numbers arent a brag. Its to show that in a matter of 1 hour, one of my favorite activities is now locked behind selling and laundering limits.

Northwold · 1:36AM

I'm not against it but I think there'd need to be some thought applied to some quality of life improvements. It gets a bit wearing to go into a tavern and find every single NPC dead because people have been doing the pick, pick, stab thing for faster respawns. If you allow people to do that continuously it'll be worse.

So, maybe, an associated tweak to speed up the respawn timer. Just so that everyone else doesn't spend their play time continuously wading through empty buildings with a profusion of corpses.

Zortiiz · 2:00AM

The respawn timer isn't completely the issue. You can only pickpocket so many times before your pockets run dry. You have to kill the NPC to respawn a new one with full pockets again.

I agree with Funeral that it would be nice to be able to launder and sell more stolen items, or, as DenverRalphy said, change it so stacks count as 1. The stacks of mats at this last event have been an issue because you could reach your laundering limit with just two stacks of mats. Meanwhile, you're running around trying not to lose everything else in your bag that you haven't been able to launder to a guard.

Overall, the caps should be considered a quality-of-life improvement by ZOS as they look into other things. While it isn't often spoken about, there is a dark underbelly of thieves running around the game, and we would really love this.

Northwold · 2:09AM

Zortiiz wrote: »

The respawn timer isn't completely the issue. You can only pickpocket so many times before your pockets run dry. You have to kill the NPC to respawn a new one with full pockets again.

Indeed, which is why the respawn timer becomes the issue. I don't think realistically it would improve things to have infinitely full pockets (unless after three your chance of getting caught rose to 100% for a time) because then people would never leave the same NPC. Though I suppose there's not much in it either way.

SirBanana1992 · 1:28PM

for the PvP justice system, one idea I had in mind was attaching the system to a Mythic equipment as a way to reward players with the risk of a high bounty with the added risk of making them possible targets of normal players. Mythics are already used sometimes as ways to enable specific playstyles and this would be a way for players who want that kind of experience to opt-in for it and those who don't to just not use the mythic.

scrappy1342 · 1:41PM

RexyCat wrote: »

not to forget how some players will systematically farm certain NPCs this way and prevent other players to even have a chance to pickpocket or kill certain NPCs that are necessary for daily Dark Brotherhood task.

a little communication and cooperation go a long way here... the npcs do have infinite pockets in the sense that it's 3 picks per person. if you leave the npc alive, everyone else can get their 3 picks also. so if you have multiple ppl farming them, really, just the last person needs to do the stab... but trying to get ppl to cooperate in this game is pretty futile. look at the daily endeavors where you only need to get one hit in on something for credit. you don't have to obliterate it, you don't have to pick any loot off of it. there's nothing to be gained by being the only person who hit the thing... and yet ppl will go OUT OF THEIR WAY to keep others from being able to get a hit in on them