ZOS We need to Spruce up Trial Rewards (Not Armor/Weapons). Group Finder is Dying Fast!!

DenverRalphy · February 18

Last'One wrote: »

Do this example: create a group for any trial and, instead of adding gatekeeping requirements, write something like: "All players welcome — new, veteran, low or high CP". Then show us (with a video) how long it takes to fill. If someone joins and leaves right away, ask them why. I’m 99% sure they’ll leave because the finder is full of low CP's players. After that, explain to me what the actual problem is with low CP's players and draw a conclusion about whether the Finder is dying for some other reason… or simply because people are gatekeeping others.

And in the end, give me a real reason why CP should be visible and why that’s better for the game instead of hiding it.

Low CP groups form up all the time. I see multiple Trial groups fill up and disappear (because they filled) all the time while the higher requirement listings takes much longer to fill.

Here's the trick to getting through the gates.. you have to be willing to join one of those lower requirement groups.

Last'One · February 18

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Low CP groups form up all the time. I see multiple Trial groups fill up and disappear (because they filled) all the time while the higher requirement listings takes much longer to fill.

Here's the trick to getting through the gates.. you have to be willing to join one of those lower requirement groups.

Of course they fill up fast! And that’s proof Finder isn’t dying at all. People think that because they can’t join the groups, there’s a lot of unnecessary gatekeeping.

DenverRalphy · February 18

Last'One wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Low CP groups form up all the time. I see multiple Trial groups fill up and disappear (because they filled) all the time while the higher requirement listings takes much longer to fill.

Here's the trick to getting through the gates.. you have to be willing to join one of those lower requirement groups.

Of course they fill up fast! And that’s proof Finder isn’t dying at all. People think that because they can’t join the groups, there’s a lot of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Okay.. you lost me here.. You just made a long post about how it is dying and full of gatekeeping.

Last'One · February 18

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Okay.. you lost me here.. You just made a long post about how it is dying and full of gatekeeping.

Creating the Finder with gatekeeping is what’s killing the Group Finder and what’s turning this game into [SNIP].
If players removed the gatekeeping, the Group Finder wouldn’t have these problems, the MMO experience in ESO would be 100% better, and players would have the opportunity to learn the content at their own pace.

Where exactly did I make your brain tilt?

spartaxoxo · February 18

They need to put rare items that can only be farmed in vet mode and that are sellable into the trials. Perhaps a material that allows you to ascend a piece of gear into the perfected version would be a good idea. They could make it so drops rarely on regular vet and commonly on vet hard mode. Vet players could choose to keep it or sell it off for coins. If the drop remains rare enough you won't see everyone suddenly in perfected and it would actually give vet trials a monopoly on a valuable item worth farming. They'd also need to make it take multiple mats to ascend a piece.

DenverRalphy · February 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They need to put rare items that can only be farmed in vet mode and that are sellable into the trials. Perhaps a material that allows you to ascend a piece of gear into the perfected version would be a good idea. They could make it so drops rarely on regular vet and commonly on vet hard mode. Vet players could choose to keep it or sell it off for coins. If the drop remains rare enough you won't see everyone suddenly in perfected and it would actually give vet trials a monopoly on a valuable item worth farming. They'd also need to make it take multiple mats to ascend a piece.

I'd be all for that, except for the being trade-sellable part. It would give players at least a partial something to make a failed attempt worthwhile. But IMO, making it sellable makes Perfected something that could be acquired without being earned, regardless how rare the availability.

Last'One · February 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They need to put rare items that can only be farmed in vet mode and that are sellable into the trials. Perhaps a material that allows you to ascend a piece of gear into the perfected version would be a good idea. They could make it so drops rarely on regular vet and commonly on vet hard mode. Vet players could choose to keep it or sell it off for coins. If the drop remains rare enough you won't see everyone suddenly in perfected and it would actually give vet trials a monopoly on a valuable item worth farming. They'd also need to make it take multiple mats to ascend a piece.

Why? To create even more gatekeeping?

spartaxoxo · February 18

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'd be all for that, except for the being trade-sellable part. It would give players at least a partial something to make a failed attempt worthwhile. But IMO, making it sellable makes Perfected something that could be acquired without being earned, regardless how rare the availability.

Last'One wrote: »

Why? To create even more gatekeeping?

The duality here lol. Anyway, the reason I'd like to give trials players something both expensive and meaningful to farm that exclusively comes from them is that it incentivizes people to join up. Something that can be used to enhance gear that comes exclusively from raids is something I've seen work well in other MMOs so I figured why not this one with vet trials. Some people already buy perfected gear by purchasing carries anyway. 🤷🏿‍♀️

Last'One · February 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'd be all for that, except for the being trade-sellable part. It would give players at least a partial something to make a failed attempt worthwhile. But IMO, making it sellable makes Perfected something that could be acquired without being earned, regardless how rare the availability.

Last'One wrote: »

Why? To create even more gatekeeping?

The duality here lol. Anyway, the reason I'd like to give trials players something both expensive and meaningful to farm that exclusively comes from them is that it incentivizes people to join up. Something that can be used to enhance gear that comes exclusively from raids is something I've seen work well in other MMOs so I figured why not this one with vet trials. Some people already buy perfected gear by purchasing carries anyway. 🤷🏿‍♀️

Trials are already too difficult for many players who pay for and support The Elder Scrolls Online, for all the reasons I mentioned before.

I understand your point, veteran players may be tired of running vet trials. But that’s exactly why Trifectas exist. ZoS already provide an extra layer of challenge and prestige for the most dedicated groups. Meanwhile, new and casual players are still struggling just to access or learn veteran content at all. They don’t need additional systems that make entry even harder.

If you want to add more challenge above Trifectas, that’s fin, but don’t tie it to systems that affect the accessibility of vet trials or the Group Finder. Both players and ZOS already gatekeep that content more than enough. What the game needs isn’t more barriers; it needs better incentives for participation without excluding the majority of the player base.

spartaxoxo · February 18

Last'One wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'd be all for that, except for the being trade-sellable part. It would give players at least a partial something to make a failed attempt worthwhile. But IMO, making it sellable makes Perfected something that could be acquired without being earned, regardless how rare the availability.

Last'One wrote: »

Why? To create even more gatekeeping?

The duality here lol. Anyway, the reason I'd like to give trials players something both expensive and meaningful to farm that exclusively comes from them is that it incentivizes people to join up. Something that can be used to enhance gear that comes exclusively from raids is something I've seen work well in other MMOs so I figured why not this one with vet trials. Some people already buy perfected gear by purchasing carries anyway. 🤷🏿‍♀️

Trials are already too difficult for many players who pay for and support The Elder Scrolls Online, for all the reasons I mentioned before.

I understand your point, veteran players may be tired of running vet trials. But that’s exactly why Trifectas exist. ZoS already provide an extra layer of challenge and prestige for the most dedicated groups. Meanwhile, new and casual players are still struggling just to access or learn veteran content at all. They don’t need additional systems that make entry even harder.

If you want to add more challenge above Trifectas, that’s fin, but don’t tie it to systems that affect the accessibility of vet trials or the Group Finder. Both players and ZOS already gatekeep that content more than enough. What the game needs isn’t more barriers; it needs better incentives for participation without excluding the majority of the player base.

A lot of the midgame accessibility problems comes from lack of participation. People who already have everything don't have much reason to go back in, which means newer players can't learn from older ones. And newer players going in don't know what they're doing, the group goes poorly, and they give up. Adding items to farm into vet trials gives both groups a reason to play together.

If you can get everything from normal then a lot of talented people who aren't interested in endgame won't bother. A lot of endgame players who already got everything also won't bother. This leaves the only ones going inside to be guild groups and newbies who are left struggling to find footing.

There's a lot of other stuff that would need to happen too but giving real incentives for participation is one of them

Last'One · February 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A lot of the midgame accessibility problems comes from lack of participation. People who already have everything don't have much reason to go back in, which means newer players can't learn from older ones. And newer players going in don't know what they're doing, the group goes poorly, and they give up. Adding items to farm into vet trials gives both groups a reason to play together.

If you can get everything from normal then a lot of talented people who aren't interested in endgame won't bother. A lot of endgame players who already got everything also won't bother. This leaves the only ones going inside to be guild groups and newbies who are left struggling to find footing.

There's a lot of other stuff that would need to happen too but giving real incentives for participation is one of them

I actually agree with you that participation is the core problem, but I don’t think adding exclusive rewards to vet trials fixes it. It risks making the gap between experienced players and everyone else even wider.

The issue in The Elder Scrolls Online isn’t just that veterans lack incentives, it’s that the learning pipeline is broken. New players don’t avoid vet trials because rewards are bad, they avoid them because the environment is hostile to learning. Groups expect clears, logs, and experience before players even get a chance to learn.

If new rewards only drop in vet, veterans will farm with optimized groups, not teach runs. That doesn’t increase participation, it just increases efficiency farming and raises expectations even higher.

What would actually help participation is:
• better onboarding into trials
• incentives for mentoring or teaching runs
• rewards tied to helping clears, not just speed clears
• tools that reduce the fear of wasting people’s time
• Give veterans reasons to bring newer players, not reasons to avoid them.
• STOP GATEKEEPING — let players use any build they want, let players learn the mechanics, stop demanding 120K parses in the Group Finder.

Personal Note:

Let me give you a personal example. vDSR was released on June 6, 2022. I only completed my veteran achievement on 12/11/2022. Why? Because I didn’t want to join toxic Discord groups, and I didn’t want toxic people yelling at me because I couldn’t handle a single dome, I simply didn’t fully understand the mechanics of the trial. And the Dam Reefs? Don’t even get me started…

On the other hand, Lucent Citadel was released on June 3, 2024. I completed the vet on the very same day, and HM on 7/13/2024. And I did all of it in my favorite build: Oakensorc HA. I was able to do it because I found a group that didn’t care that I was in HA. The group was supportive, DPS was good, we tried, and we succeeded!

Do you understand what I’m saying? If we players stop gatekeeping others, the entire game wins. That’s exactly what we need!

Right now the game doesn’t suffer from lack of loot, it suffers from lack of accessible progression between normal and veteran.

spartaxoxo · February 18

Last'One wrote: »

Right now the game doesn’t suffer from lack of loot, it suffers from lack of accessible progression between normal and veteran.

I agree about the onboarding process but I believe it suffers from both. The beauty of it being an upgrade mat is that making it tradeable means people can upgrade fully before attempting vet content. But it will be much, much cheaper to run it themselves (so there's still accomplishment and incentive to getting it yourself).

Have you met some people who ask for better gear when their parse is much lower than can be explained by gear? You can explain to them stuff like rotations all you want but they'll just say "well we're not all in sweaty vet gear." Let them gear up ahead of time and come to their own realization that technique may be an issue instead of running into the realization from someone who's being rude about it in a random group, and you'll get people improving on their own.

They also need to be given the tools in-game to know how to improve without needing an math major.

Last'One · February 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Right now the game doesn’t suffer from lack of loot, it suffers from lack of accessible progression between normal and veteran.

I agree about the onboarding process but I believe it suffers from both. The beauty of it being an upgrade mat is that making it tradeable means people can upgrade fully before attempting vet content. But it will be much, much cheaper to run it themselves (so there's still accomplishment and incentive to getting it yourself).

Have you met some people who ask for better gear when their parse is much lower than can be explained by gear? You can explain to them stuff like rotations all you want but they'll just say "well we're not all in sweaty vet gear." Let them gear up ahead of time and come to their own realization that technique may be an issue instead of running into the realization from someone who's being rude about it in a random group, and you'll get people improving on their own.

They also need to be given the tools in-game to know how to improve without needing an math major.

I see what you mean about giving players mats so they can gear up and learn on their own, that’s valid. But the bigger issue is the community environment around vet content. Look at what happened with Oakensoul: it was a great item for new and casual players, letting them learn mechanics while still contributing DPS. Veteran players complained and it got nerfed repeatedly. Now casual players struggle, and some even face gatekeeping just for “low DPS.” At that point, do veterans really care about the vet trials (the ESO game) themselves, or just about their DPS? The same applies to your point: why would they care about “new loot” if all that matters to them is maximizing their own DPS?

So even if mats are tradeable, just giving gear doesn’t automatically bring players together or encourage learning. The real problem is toxicity and strict DPS expectations. Until that changes — and we stop gatekeeping — gear alone won’t solve participation or mentoring issues.

Drinks_from_Ponds · February 18

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think its mostly a lot of the end game people are just burned out

the trials guild im in that i try to run a trial at least weekly has barely been getting roster half full (or sometimes even less, ive had some weekends where nobody signs up for the trials), a lot of the people who used to join trials only tend to even log in a couple of days a week at most for trifecta progs, but thats it

from what ive talked to some people, they only wanted to run them for gear and once had all the gear dont have much interest in running them, but thats not the only reason ive heard either

a problem with adding more rewards in to stuff like that, is then you have the people complaining about being able to get them, as some have no interest in running trials/group content period and then feel like they are locked out from obtaining the collectible. the other problem with collectibles is those are again, one and done, once people have them they wont have a desire to run again

good rewards would be stuff that you would want to farm for, say a bundle of materials (like a random alchemy satchel, or provisioning satchel, etc), or other semi useful things like surveys, treasure maps, or master writs, essentially rewards that would make it worth running for even after all other collectibles have been obtained

What trial guild are you, I am trying to find one to run with

ceruulean · February 18

ESO Trials were not always boring but they suffer from the poor combat system. You have tanks that get one-shot if they miss a block, so they're just as annoying to play as a glass cannon DPS, but they have the expectation of maintaining buffs. In other games, tanks are more forgiving to play than DPS because of the extra responsibilities they have (raid awareness, callouts, interrupts, add control, etc). Tanking in ESO is one of the most unfun tank experiences i've ever had. Some people enjoy this hardcore style, but it's even worse in vOC HM where if a tank roll dodges a heavy attack, they murder half the group. Sparks are programmed to bombard the group if a tank roll dodges the heavy. This is different from say, Taleria in vDSR HM, where a tank has to position the cleave, but roll-dodging is fine. So the design of some of the newer trials is a turnoff.

Even though DPS is easier than ever, the difficulty of supports has shot up. With tank shortages, you can't get as many raids going. So now, playing DPS is mindnumbing, tanking is hell on earth, healing is somewhat chill but more engaging than dps. Instead of having a balanced distribution of responsibility, trials feel like babysitting. There's more healers than DPS in the causal groups, lmao.

With subclassing, the fun factor is even more gone as supports have become even more buff slaves. New trials like vLC and vOC are designed with arcanist beam in mind, so they require beam meta. Older trials have been powercrept but pure class was nerfed, so the powergap between "classes" is wider than it used to be.

In the past, when light attack weaving was necessary for damage, people would do interrupts in vAS+2. Now the beam/heavy attack meta has made people lazy, and people complain when they're assigned to do interrupts that it's too hard because they never learned to quickly tab target. So either the OT does it, someone learns to tab target, or you just don't clear.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · February 19

ceruulean wrote: »

ESO Trials were not always boring but they suffer from the poor combat system. You have tanks that get one-shot if they miss a block, so they're just as annoying to play as a glass cannon DPS, but they have the expectation of maintaining buffs. In other games, tanks are more forgiving to play than DPS because of the extra responsibilities they have (raid awareness, callouts, interrupts, add control, etc). Tanking in ESO is one of the most unfun tank experiences i've ever had. Some people enjoy this hardcore style, but it's even worse in vOC HM where if a tank roll dodges a heavy attack, they murder half the group. Sparks are programmed to bombard the group if a tank roll dodges the heavy. This is different from say, Taleria in vDSR HM, where a tank has to position the cleave, but roll-dodging is fine. So the design of some of the newer trials is a turnoff.

Even though DPS is easier than ever, the difficulty of supports has shot up. With tank shortages, you can't get as many raids going. So now, playing DPS is mindnumbing, tanking is hell on earth, healing is somewhat chill but more engaging than dps. Instead of having a balanced distribution of responsibility, trials feel like babysitting. There's more healers than DPS in the causal groups, lmao.

With subclassing, the fun factor is even more gone as supports have become even more buff slaves. New trials like vLC and vOC are designed with arcanist beam in mind, so they require beam meta. Older trials have been powercrept but pure class was nerfed, so the powergap between "classes" is wider than it used to be.

In the past, when light attack weaving was necessary for damage, people would do interrupts in vAS+2. Now the beam/heavy attack meta has made people lazy, and people complain when they're assigned to do interrupts that it's too hard because they never learned to quickly tab target. So either the OT does it, someone learns to tab target, or you just don't clear.

This is a major issue. There already aren't enough supports in the game. It's true, most people are primarily dps so that is one of the reasons all we keep hearing about is dps, dps, dps.
The dwindling number of tanks can be directly attributed to constant calls from PvP to nerf ANYTHING that isnt dps. They don't like healing, they dont like damage shields, they dont like ultimate, ect (without those things, everyone is dps), they want more and more sets nerfed constantly. They've had characters nerfed CONSTANTLY over the years. Add up every nerf to the DK since its creation, it's mind boggling. Real healers are only heal stacking bc there is so much dps, there isnt enough time for heals like polar wind to work if you dont. And people who like to go to pvp as supports will stop if it continues.
There are many people who have quit support roles because things like the sustain keep getting kneecaped on their tanks. And new people try it, see these things and refuse to do it because its miserable.
Even healing has become awful because they keep ruining any good sets, like Pillager which needs UN NERFED! Healers should be actually restoring health and resources, not wearing medium armor like Master Architect with no sustain and tank gear like Powerful Assault to bolster already overpowered dps.
Better rewards seems like a good idea but the good intentions of it will only make the toxic gatekeepers exploit it more.
While im not against better rewards, I do think the lack of supports is the true issue. Included in that are real supports that dont need parses or videos from people they've forced to run with other guilds before they'll let them run in theirs (Which is beyond sad).

Tra_Lalan · February 19

The main problem with trials is that they require 12 players.
So basicaly you are forced to play with people you don't know.

Most players don't like to play difficult content with random people. Its is uncomfortable to them if they arent good enought, its tireing for them when they are good enought and have to deal with other playrers' mistakes.

I keep away from trials. No rewards are going to change that sorry.
And if you have enought friends to play trials, then good for you.

Last'One · February 19

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

The main problem with trials is that they require 12 players.
So basicaly you are forced to play with people you don't know.

Most players don't like to play difficult content with random people. Its is uncomfortable to them if they arent good enought, its tireing for them when they are good enought and have to deal with other playrers' mistakes.

I keep away from trials. No rewards are going to change that sorry.
And if you have enought friends to play trials, then good for you.

I don’t think players are "forced" to play with strangers. We can run trials with friends, guildmates, Discord groups etc... if you want a controlled environment. The Group Finder is specifically for random groups and when we queue for that, we should expect a mix of builds, skill levels, and experience. That’s the nature of matchmaking.

You also said; "rewards wouldn’t change your mind", which suggests the issue isn’t loot, it’s the social experience. And that’s fair. But that’s exactly why the community matters. If players explained mechanics instead of getting frustrated, helped others improve instead of blaming them, and accepted that not everyone plays at the same level, trials would feel far less uncomfortable for everyone.

In the end, the biggest barrier isn’t loot or difficulty, it’s how players treat each other. If we improve that, participation improves too.

And I’ll say it again: ZoS should update their Code of Conduct to address and penalize gatekeeping in in-game tools such as the Group Finder.

Listings that include things like:
• 100k DPS or kick
• No HA builds
• CP1500+ only
• Discord required
• Link your sets
• No one-bar builds
• Only Arcanists
• etc...

…turn a game tool into an exclusion tool. If the Group Finder is meant to help players access content, then rules that deliberately block large portions of the player base shouldn’t be encouraged.
If the goal is a healthier community and more participation, the game needs systems that promote inclusion, not systems that reward filtering people out before they even get a chance to play.

• Raid leaders should only be able to remove a player if that player is offline, to prevent unnecessary or unfair kicks, because everyone already has the option to leave the group if they want. If a player doesn’t want to help others, they can simply leave the group themselves.

AllenaNightWood · February 19

i would agree that trials could use more rewards across the table not just tied to vet and vet hm clears because that not gonna get more people into them, considering the amount of gate keeping in harder modes

Last'One · February 19

AllenaNightWood wrote: »

i would agree that trials could use more rewards across the table not just tied to vet and vet hm clears because that not gonna get more people into them, considering the amount of gate keeping in harder modes

Exactly, you recognize there’s already gatekeeping for hard modes, and honestly I don’t even mind that as much, because those groups are usually organized through Discords, guilds, or personal invites. That’s expected for high-end coordinated content.

The real problem is that this same mindset already exists in the Group Finder and adding more exclusive rewards in Trials will only make it worse. Players already set strict requirements for who they want in their Finder groups. If you add even more rewards tied to performance, why would those players suddenly become more inclusive? They won’t. They’ll just tighten their requirements even more.

The focus should be on accessibility and learning, not just on adding new loot.

Last'One · February 19

What about adding participation-based rewards instead of performance-based ones?

For example; groups could earn crafting materials, a special currency, or another valuable reward if their Group Finder fills within a few minutes of being created. That would encourage players to be more inclusive so groups form faster.

To discourage kicking, the reward will be lost if someone is removed from the group after it fills. That way, the system would promote cooperation instead of filtering people out before they even get a chance to play.
The reward would only be granted after the trial is completed, so time wouldn’t become another exclusion factor, the goal would be cooperation, not speed. Systems like this could promote healthier group behavior and make matchmaking feel more welcoming in ESO.

Frayton · February 19

Last'One wrote: »

What about adding participation-based rewards instead of performance-based ones?

For example; groups could earn crafting materials, a special currency, or another valuable reward if their Group Finder fills within a few minutes of being created. That would encourage players to be more inclusive so groups form faster.
To discourage kicking, the reward will be lost if someone is removed from the group after it fills. That way, the system would promote cooperation instead of filtering people out before they even get a chance to play.

The reward would only be granted after the trial is completed, so time wouldn’t become another exclusion factor, the goal would be cooperation, not speed. Systems like this could promote healthier group behavior and make matchmaking feel more welcoming in ESO.

I would stop using GF if something like this went live.

It promotes trolling and minimum effort bc the troll/carry-me player would know the group has an incentive to not kick them.

Also, I don't get why people don't just start their own groups. That way, they can set it up exactly how they want it.

valenwood_vegan · February 19

Still wondering when Last'One will be offering signups for their "open to everyone, no one will be kicked under any circumstances" trial group that they're completely free to create at any time.

What we don't get to do, is dictate to other players who they have to play with and how they have to set up their own groups.

Last'One · February 19

Frayton wrote: »

I would stop using GF if something like this went live.
It promotes trolling and minimum effort bc the troll/carry-me player would know the group has an incentive to not kick them.
Also, I don't get why people don't just start their own groups. That way, they can set it up exactly how they want it.

That was just an example (good or bad), but let me ask this: how exactly would this “it promotes trolling or minimum effort” argument hold up if you end up with a group of 12 players around CP400 (+/-)? Why would they troll in the first place? Most of them would be there to learn and clear the content, not sabotage it.

And why, just why, do they even join Group Finder just to troll? Because yes, this really does happen.

If anything, I can give far more examples of veteran players trolling, quitting after one wipe, or refusing to adapt if things aren’t perfectly optimized. So the problem isn’t player level, Trial Rewards, Loot, it’s player attitude.

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Still wondering when Last'One will be offering signups for their "open to everyone, no one will be kicked under any circumstances" trial group that they're completely free to create at any time.

What we don't get to do, is dictate to other players who they have to play with and how they have to set up their own groups.

From time to time, I create Group Finder runs, but I usually avoid them. Why? Veteran players tend to be more complicated than newer or casual players. It’s not just a feeling, experienced players often have high expectations and little patience, which can make the environment stressful and discouraging. Casual players, in contrast, are generally more flexible and cooperative, making the experience much more enjoyable.

Casual players in Group Finder are there to actually play the game. Many veteran players, however, join just to troll, speed-run, or do things in ways I really don’t like.

As a result, I can’t even ignore people anymore (Full) and I bet they ignore me too.... Who loses and who wins?!

But anyway, are we still talking about the topic, or are we drifting off into discussions about why I kick people and my personal preferences?

spartaxoxo · February 19

Last'One wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Right now the game doesn’t suffer from lack of loot, it suffers from lack of accessible progression between normal and veteran.

I agree about the onboarding process but I believe it suffers from both. The beauty of it being an upgrade mat is that making it tradeable means people can upgrade fully before attempting vet content. But it will be much, much cheaper to run it themselves (so there's still accomplishment and incentive to getting it yourself).

Have you met some people who ask for better gear when their parse is much lower than can be explained by gear? You can explain to them stuff like rotations all you want but they'll just say "well we're not all in sweaty vet gear." Let them gear up ahead of time and come to their own realization that technique may be an issue instead of running into the realization from someone who's being rude about it in a random group, and you'll get people improving on their own.

They also need to be given the tools in-game to know how to improve without needing an math major.

I see what you mean about giving players mats so they can gear up and learn on their own, that’s valid. But the bigger issue is the community environment around vet content. Look at what happened with Oakensoul: it was a great item for new and casual players, letting them learn mechanics while still contributing DPS. Veteran players complained and it got nerfed repeatedly. Now casual players struggle, and some even face gatekeeping just for “low DPS.” At that point, do veterans really care about the vet trials (the ESO game) themselves, or just about their DPS? The same applies to your point: why would they care about “new loot” if all that matters to them is maximizing their own DPS?

So even if mats are tradeable, just giving gear doesn’t automatically bring players together or encourage learning. The real problem is toxicity and strict DPS expectations. Until that changes — and we stop gatekeeping — gear alone won’t solve participation or mentoring issues.

Vet players didn't benefit from Oakensoul. And in some ways they felt they were being taken away from. I didn't agree with that mindset not going to defend it but it was factually a common opinion that existed at the time.

Giving vet players something to sell ensures that the rising tide is able to lift all the boats.

Last'One · 10:18AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Vet players didn't benefit from Oakensoul. And in some ways they felt they were being taken away from. I didn't agree with that mindset not going to defend it but it was factually a common opinion that existed at the time.

Giving vet players something to sell ensures that the rising tide is able to lift all the boats.

Oakensoul wasn’t created to benefit only veteran or elite players. It was designed to help a large portion of the player base, new players, casual players, and even veterans who don’t enjoy or can’t consistently weaving for whatever reason. And it worked. ZOS created an item that allowed more people to participate in content and feel effective in groups.
More players could contribute, learn mechanics, and complete content. That’s good for the health of the game as a whole.

When people say “vets didn’t benefit,” what that really shows is the core issue: player attitude. If something helps the community but isn’t optimal for the top 1%, it gets rejected. That’s not a loot problem, it’s a mindset problem.

So when we talk about adding new rewards just to motivate veteran players, I think we’re looking at the wrong solution. The game doesn’t need more exclusive loot to function, it needs a healthier community environment that encourages participation, learning, and cooperation across all skill levels.