Define 'off hours'.

There are people all over the world who play on every server. Should they tell you to not take keeps when they are sleeping too?

aetherix8 wrote: »

I agree that Cyro needs changes, mostly related to balance, but also how the scoring system works. But the situation you describe, nightcaps then morning caps, and gating the map all day long, I would rather attribute to population imbalance than player toxicity.

So for me it all goes back to the devs - too little attention was given to PvP, too many bad changes stayed for too long, and current issues are still waiting for a solution. Too many players have left.

The map would play different if populations were healthy, but they are only balanced for a few hours prime time, and the rest of the time there just aren’t enough players on all factions. We need more players, so at any given time there are enough players to defend, retake and generally slow down PvDoor enthusiasts.

Devs need to fix the balance in order to attract more players, new and returning, and with healthy population maybe it wouldn’t be necessary to change how scoring works.

The population imbalance is usually the cause of morning capping at least on PC EU. Most players swap to the faction that holds the map the most.

We need a mercenary alliance.

LarsS wrote: »

I hope the new ZOS team will consider some changes. Vengeance or toning down healing and shields will not be enough.

Cyro offers the possibility for 24/7 pvp if designed properly. Presently we have a situation where a small number of players can dominate the map outside of primetime. This could be changed without much effort. As it is now the game buffs the faction that dominates the map. Instead buff the factions who own little and are fewer and one could have interesting pvp 24/7.

This is not a new proposal, it has been made many times I hope ZOS is willing to consider it.

I've always thought that was ridiculous. The alliance with the biggest pop number wins. That's basically how Cyro works. So making the winning alliance also get buffed because they are winning just exaggerates the challenge of fighting outnumbered. They should do away with the low pop bonus to the points, which incentivizes players to quit, and give a low pop stat buff. This would actually encourage players to stay engaged.

Gates worked pretty well when I started doing PvP many years ago, and now there are very rare fight on it. If you stop enemy at gates, you will miss keep def tick :P It can be part of the problem.

Wup_sa wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Define 'off hours'.

There are people all over the world who play on every server. Should they tell you to not take keeps when they are sleeping too?

No? that's why map reset would happen all the time doesn't matter if it's prime time or 4 am. It would benefit everyone else but the ones who enjoy flipping the entire map.

In California they do most freeway repair at night. The freeway is still open though. Should we prevent people from driving ing on the roads at 3am because you drive in them at 9am?

Same applies to zos. They dont shut the server down unless they have to because people play all the time. I dont understand why this idiscussion is happening. People take keeps when you are sleeping. It happens.

aetherix8 wrote: »

I agree that Cyro needs changes, mostly related to balance, but also how the scoring system works. But the situation you describe, nightcaps then morning caps, and gating the map all day long, I would rather attribute to population imbalance than player toxicity.

So for me it all goes back to the devs - too little attention was given to PvP, too many bad changes stayed for too long, and current issues are still waiting for a solution. Too many players have left.

The map would play different if populations were healthy, but they are only balanced for a few hours prime time, and the rest of the time there just aren’t enough players on all factions. We need more players, so at any given time there are enough players to defend, retake and generally slow down PvDoor enthusiasts.

Devs need to fix the balance in order to attract more players, new and returning, and with healthy population maybe it wouldn’t be necessary to change how scoring works.

Agree with most of this. But the OP does have a point on player behavior however it’s aimed incorrectly. Players are making it worse, but it’s not the Zergs that make it worse, it’s the constant back cappers and trolls. On Xbox NA, ADs been PvDooring every night but it’s to the point of revenge cause all Red/Blue do is push BM and BB trying to farm AD pugs during core hours. So, when those folks log off, you bet those AD pugs are gonna run the map cause they just spent 5 hours going from home keep to home keep trying to “do their part”.

Balance is the biggest problem though, those troll groups are overpowered and the pugs can’t kill them.

They also need to increase the camp cooldown, or change the radius or decrease the limit I dunno, camps are huge problem though.

SneaK wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I agree that Cyro needs changes, mostly related to balance, but also how the scoring system works. But the situation you describe, nightcaps then morning caps, and gating the map all day long, I would rather attribute to population imbalance than player toxicity.

So for me it all goes back to the devs - too little attention was given to PvP, too many bad changes stayed for too long, and current issues are still waiting for a solution. Too many players have left.

The map would play different if populations were healthy, but they are only balanced for a few hours prime time, and the rest of the time there just aren’t enough players on all factions. We need more players, so at any given time there are enough players to defend, retake and generally slow down PvDoor enthusiasts.

Devs need to fix the balance in order to attract more players, new and returning, and with healthy population maybe it wouldn’t be necessary to change how scoring works.

Agree with most of this. But the OP does have a point on player behavior however it’s aimed incorrectly. Players are making it worse, but it’s not the Zergs that make it worse, it’s the constant back cappers and trolls. On Xbox NA, ADs been PvDooring every night but it’s to the point of revenge cause all Red/Blue do is push BM and BB trying to farm AD pugs during core hours. So, when those folks log off, you bet those AD pugs are gonna run the map cause they just spent 5 hours going from home keep to home keep trying to “do their part”.

Balance is the biggest problem though, those troll groups are overpowered and the pugs can’t kill them.

They also need to increase the camp cooldown, or change the radius or decrease the limit I dunno, camps are huge problem though.

And wouldn't a map reset give a fighting chance for those who get gated all the time? It would give everyone their scrolls and home keeps back like every 4 hours.

Wup_sa wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I agree that Cyro needs changes, mostly related to balance, but also how the scoring system works. But the situation you describe, nightcaps then morning caps, and gating the map all day long, I would rather attribute to population imbalance than player toxicity.

So for me it all goes back to the devs - too little attention was given to PvP, too many bad changes stayed for too long, and current issues are still waiting for a solution. Too many players have left.

The map would play different if populations were healthy, but they are only balanced for a few hours prime time, and the rest of the time there just aren’t enough players on all factions. We need more players, so at any given time there are enough players to defend, retake and generally slow down PvDoor enthusiasts.

Devs need to fix the balance in order to attract more players, new and returning, and with healthy population maybe it wouldn’t be necessary to change how scoring works.

Agree with most of this. But the OP does have a point on player behavior however it’s aimed incorrectly. Players are making it worse, but it’s not the Zergs that make it worse, it’s the constant back cappers and trolls. On Xbox NA, ADs been PvDooring every night but it’s to the point of revenge cause all Red/Blue do is push BM and BB trying to farm AD pugs during core hours. So, when those folks log off, you bet those AD pugs are gonna run the map cause they just spent 5 hours going from home keep to home keep trying to “do their part”.

Balance is the biggest problem though, those troll groups are overpowered and the pugs can’t kill them.

They also need to increase the camp cooldown, or change the radius or decrease the limit I dunno, camps are huge problem though.

And wouldn't a map reset give a fighting chance for those who get gated all the time? It would give everyone their scrolls and home keeps back like every 4 hours.

No. It would just give the dominant faction more AP.

aetherix8 wrote: »

@LarsS
In general, I’m of the opinion that if the populations were balanced, buffs from scrolls wouldn’t be a problem, but a necessity so the dominant faction would be able to defend 1v2. I would agree to replacing buffs with debuffs till population recovers (if ever).

@Wup_sa
I don’t think that resetting the map every 4 hours is a good solution. It would just disincentivize any objective play. Why would I even bother trying to take a scroll from a temple if in a couple of hours it will just respawn at its temple? Why bother going for emp if every 4 hours you lose 4 emp keeps without a chance at defending and winning def ticks? And how would that affect the score?

@SneaK
Player’s behavior does make things worse, I agree, but what can be done about it? Not that long ago, someone opened a thread asking vet PvPers to stop using meta builds for the sake of the game’s health. Nobody volunteered. You can’t just ask trolls to become decent people all of a sudden, this is why IRL we have laws and law enforcement - because asking ppl to respect some norms is pointless if there are no consequences for crossing the line. And those morning cappers aren’t even trolls, they’re just guildies PvDooring together. That’s why I’m saying it all goes back to ZOS - fix the balance so populations recover, and only then see if anything else has to change.

You wouldn't lose emperor since you still hold 2 of the emperor keeps. And like i said it wouldn't fix the issue, but to discourage players from doing it till the devs decide to rework cyro and the scoring.

Another thing, I hope the up-and-coming class changes over the next year or so will help with the homogenisation we currently see.

I dont play cyrodiil because the current high crit / high mobility meta sucks.

Everyone running animal companions / assassination / storm calling. The place has turned into a tag and chase game.

Seriously, chasing players for 2 minutes for them to unload a 1 second combo on you then reset absolutely sucks.

I still play PvP and i'm truly one of the last left in my guilds who does. There are a lot of people who used to that won't anymore and a lot more than that who simply left the game.

Some of the smaller members, or even new ones tried it and decided they don't even stand a chance. And they really don't in the conditions there right now. It's a 1 shot stop for them. And they aren't going to come back.

Im honestly just working to finish the achievements there myself because at this point, it wouldn't bother me to never go back there. The same is true of IC and battlegrounds. The first thing I did in the game was pvp once upon a time and it used to be fun. That was a very very long time ago.
The dps is way too high in pvp. The meta is absolutely out of control. Anyone who is a tank or healer isnt welcome. Or uses tank or healer skills in general are immediately on the pvp chopping block.
Vengeance isnt perfect, but it's a lot more fair. Probably the reason pvp is attempting to boycott it.
The population being full isn't something everyone looks for either. There are people who actually go in late at night or in off hours to deliberately avoid the toxic behavior and even people in general.

As far as the scoring goes, at this point I couldn't care less. Neither do any of the few people left who will still venture in there with me. The only thing that truly matters there is that the leaderboard people won't have anyone else on it who isn't them. And they will say or do anything to keep it that way. The fact that they're worried about population is a direct result of years of catering to them. Years of equipment and character nerfs. Years of fighting over the same keep over and over again. Years of rude behavior towards other players. The current goings on of pvp is what has brought us here and if it isn't changed, I would have been worried they might be playing alone with an end of service date. I'm not anymore. Eventually, it will just get to the point where I don't even want the achievements there and I am not alone in this.

PC EU here and for the past 3 or so years, it has been EP that has been "Night Capping" or "Morning Capping" the map (especially GH, BR has been mostly AD/DC capping it due to being gated out of GH entirely by EP).

That is until this campaign where I'm guessing a few EP guilds swapped to AD because they got bored of the exact same pvdoor and a dying/dead map with nothing to fight/do because the regular AD and DC guilds all left GH due to being sick of trying to get out of their gates only to be met at the scroll keeps by the entire EP faction including ball groups...

This isn't to excuse AD, because they have been doing it too and so has DC a couple of times in the past, but all alliances have their PvDoor guilds that completely ruin the map/campaign for others to the point where you either join them on their alliance or don't play PvP at all.

The problem is that this issue requires major adjustments, not only to the scoring systems, but to the bonuses given out to winning/losing factions, and would also require frequent (every 5 mins or so) checks to ensure guilds can't abuse it by briefly logging out every 3-4 hours just to prevent the losing alliances from getting these bonuses like some of these PvDoor guilds currently do/have done in the past.

Another issue that needs addressing is the hammer. If an alliance has Emp and/or all enemy scrolls (guaranteed with morning cap PvDoor), they should not be allowed to pick up the hammer at all or have it be a massive detriment to them if they do pick it up. Use the hammer itself as a way to balance the map and encourage the losing alliances to log in and fight back with both scoring and power bonuses to push back during these periods of massive population imbalance.

xylena wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Should they tell you to not take keeps when they are sleeping too?

The candle is being burned at both ends. The NA prime time GH defenders give zero hoots about the rest of the game and will spew toxicity if you suggest any change that would affect their 2-3 hours of splashing around in a small pond. The off hours PvDoor crowd gives zero hoots about people trying to PvP and are there explicitly because it's so easy to avoid fighting players.

But since none of these players are breaking any rules, cheating, exploiting, etc... yeah that puts the blame squarely on the devs, it's their responsibility to design a functional PvP format that minimizes opportunities for players to legally get away with toxic behavior.

If more people played around the clock the pvdoor crowd wouldnt be able to.do.what they do the way they do it. This is true.

Also, the toxic play in cyro sits squarely on zos' shoulders for sure.

Either way, resetting the map every four hours will i ky exacerbate the issues, not fix them and not make cyro more fun.

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

While it wouldn't solve the problem, removing faction lock would help.

When I was still PVPing regularly, there were many times when my small group or ballgroup would log on, see that our faction the dominant faction, see if we had any interest in BR (we didn't), then log off to find something else to play.

Most PVPers really DO want fights and would gladly play on a lesser faction in order to get them.

This has been a big part of it too.

Imo the full month long lock is too drastic. It really only needed to be a 24 or 48 hour faction lock, that's still long enough to discourage the trolls or "spies" from doing their thing since it won't be useful to be forced to wait 24/48 hours to act on outdated info, but will be short enough to allow players/groups to essentially play as mercenaries and find real fights if their current faction is too dominant.

90% of the problem points of Cyrodil aren't problems when every faction is 3bar or poplocked. The problems happen when 1 faction has 2-3bar vs the other 2 at just 1 bar. Daytime Cyro should be just as active as primetime for a game with a single server and the size of its population. The fact that ESO can't get 80 people per faction on during the day is a problem that needs a solution. Day times lopsided population leads to a deathspiral for the underpopulated. They log on, look at the map and bars and log off if its to lopsided. There isn't enough incentive to be the other factions entertainment. MyM brings the population up some, but just double AP/XP won't last. There needs to be some other incentives with longer term goals to retain players in Cyro. More skins, mounts, more gear boxes. Something to spend all that AP on.