(Edited to be): Heart's Week quests and writing concerns.

Enemoriana · February 14

Malyore wrote: »

Those very very big problems your campaign had, what were they? Because the scope of this problem in the quest is very benign. Someone lost a piece of loot, and then got accused of stealing and lying because of it, which then meant the entire team was going to disband.
That's not a big problem, that is a big overreaction– and it is that overreaction that is actually the problem for this group. But of course, that is never how it is presented nor addressed in the quest.
At least, I assume. This quest wasn't worth actually paying attention to. I glossed past as much nonsense dialogue and objectives as I could.

That big problems started from not speaking about small personal problems ("they have more important things to do, it's just me not being good enough"), not enough talking to each other, feeling of unfair treatment, and two party members desire for same thing (well, that was not bow, but ruins of city to rebuilt, but exact thing is not really important).

Any big problems between such groups starts from minor things. Small crack, that can be repaired - or will become huge.
____

And argonian said something about his overreaction (and why it was), if I remember correctly.

Syldras · February 14

It's always a personal question whether one can relate with a story or not, also depending on personal experiences in real life, personal character traits, the culture one grew up in, etc.

I personally could not relate to that group of adventurers, because I found their problems silly and the fact that older adults (they were supposed to look older and to have been friends for decades) weren't able to openly talk to each other - which is, for me, the central meaning of friendship. Not having the same hobbies or doing things together - which is awesome, of course, but it's not the central part of friendship for me - but being completely open with each other and sharing all thoughts, be it ideas and dreams or also negative things like doubts and sorrows.

And with it comes a certain leniency; after decades (though it doesn't even take decades, actually - I'd say 6 or 7 years are already sufficient), I know a friend well, and their "flaws" too, of course. I would not suspect someone who had been staunchly by my side for 10 years of having stolen something, for example. Especially if I've noticed before that they might be a little absentminded at times and forget where they've put something or similar.

AScarlato · February 14

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

But this is not the first time we have weird and frankly bad writing regarding Divines and Prince worship lately, some of the latest is even again related to Sanguine, albeit Sanguine and Dibella instead of Mara. Which is on Solstice, where the Dibella worshippers are behaving extremely puritan and consider even some mild drinking and partying horrible, and the Sanguine worshippers just want to drink a little and have a mild party. Like the issue is the moderate drinking, not anything daedric. It was all rather soapboxy (which apparently happens more than once in solstice's quests).

This makes me happy I stopped Soltisce where I did after the nonsensical NPC in the middle of a dangerous warzone had dialogue that said "Rituals and stuff."

But it also is pretty painful to read; how the Divines and Princes are represented is very important to me, and after reading your summary of this quest I'm offended on behalf of these entities.

Syldras · February 14

AScarlato wrote: »

This makes me happy I stopped Soltisce where I did after the nonsensical NPC in the middle of a dangerous warzone had dialogue that said "Rituals and stuff."

While we're at wording (and perhaps the question whether hugging the Mara priest is played as a joke or not): I've noticed one thing I've already mentioned in another thread, but maybe it also fits here. In quest articles on UESP, quest titles, questlog descriptions and even all quest stage descriptions are displayed (I think they are even automatically read out of the game data). Most articles on the current event have a note that they're still based on the version that was on PTS. Okay, I see it has been removed by now... But, when I looked a few days ago, the description of that last event quest, that consists of nothing but hugging the priest, had this quest log description:
"Bring all your learnings back to Kuzam-jo and make a critical decision that will shake the foundations of Tamriel."

That's peak "Millennial writing" (that seems to be the term usually used for it; I'm a "millennial" myself and hate this type of writing, by the way) - everything must be exaggerated to make it "ironic", nothing is taken seriously.

I'm glad they've removed the last part in the final version that was released now!

LootAllTheStuff · February 14

I do find myself wondering if it was just a case of overblown (hyperbolic) writing, or whether there was supposed to be more to these quests but the team didn't have the time or resources to do it all. It's not the first time new content has felt like that.

Syldras · February 14

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

I do find myself wondering if it was just a case of overblown (hyperbolic) writing, or whether there was supposed to be more to these quests but the team didn't have the time or resources to do it all. It's not the first time new content has felt like that.

We don't know of course, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was meant to be "funny". Some huge, world-changing and possibly tragic occurrence would feel a bit off for an event questline for a more light-hearted event, that also will probably repeat every year from now on.

Which sadly doesn't mean the event doesn't feel unfinished. It does. And bugged, too, with animations not playing, dialogue choices not really having any consequence, etc.

For me, personally, the best was the start, with that group of actors. I found those dialogues amusing, showing that one guy how to fight also seemed an okay idea (a pity we didn't actually see him do something on stage later!), but then it somehow went downhill, with the Mara priest being too tolerant with the Sanguine cultist, our choices there having no consequences at all, and then that group of adventurers who basically fight over total trivialities like kindergarten children...

That said, while I hate the event box timer, I do like that we get lots of furnishing plans from those boxes, and I also enjoy giving companions gifts. I'd just wish there would be more reactions and that the letter we get for purple gifts would actually be a furnishing we could read again at any time!

Syldras · February 14

Just came across this, which is upstairs in the Belkarth tavern (must have overlooked it on the first day of the event because it was so crowded) - it's interesting, to say the least:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reigniting_Love_for_Contemporary_Audiences

Malyore · February 14

Syldras wrote: »

Just came across this, which is upstairs in the Belkarth tavern (must have overlooked it on the first day of the event because it was so crowded) - it's interesting, to say the least:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reigniting_Love_for_Contemporary_Audiences

This may be overly critical of me to say, but a key feature of that is that she refers to it as art.

Yes, things can change to reflect the times (however that often becomes a saturated market and is, itself, slow to change once people fatigue of the constant reflection).

However, if this interview is supposed to draw parallels with how ESO handles its story, then I think the interview automatically discounts its own argument. ESO doesn't feel like art anymore.

I say "anymore" because there are at least two times I have felt truly impressed with ESO as a medium for art. Sotha Sil's last dialogue in the Clockwork City. And the khajiit bard in Rimmen with the beautiful voice. Art can definitely exist in this game, and those two are just the most extreme examples I have personally experienced. I still gush over how beautiful the decor in Necrom is whenever I'm there.

But how ESO stories feels now is: meaningless noise, laziness, and lack of understanding. Again, assuming this interview is supposed to be compared to the game. Its tone may have changed, but it did so in ways that are not artistic, and that creates some issues.
Another thing to consider, ESO is constant. It's not just one story as a retold play, but multiple stories that are always coming out. That changes the nature of how they should do their reimaginings.

Syldras · February 14

It looks very clearly like it's dismissive of criticism that was made about writing quality, clichéd characters, plotholes, etc - by, which doesn't seem to have been understood, people who are long-time fans of this fictional world and only have the best in mind for this ongoing 30+ year story (Arena was published in 1994). In particular this part:

"I think so often about the sensibilities of contemporary audiences. Gone are the years of quietly interrogating a play's themes and values. Now, I often find rabbles of theatergoers huddled outside playhouses, wrestling not with the work itself, but with a perceived merit measured against such mindless drivel as plot holes and unlikable characters."

Then even framing it as somehow snobistic, because - think of the commoners!!!!

"But if stories are to survive, they must change with the times, yes? And I hear my critics now. How dare she reduce tragedy to fashionable action? To which I say, do the commoners not deserve art?"

And even having the "chronicler" calling this "remarkable" and "profound"...

From my point of view, it's respectless towards the audience.

Malyore · February 14

Syldras wrote: »

It looks very clearly like it's dismissive of criticism that was made about writing quality, clichéd characters, plotholes, etc - by, which doesn't seem to have been understood, people who are long-time fans of this fictional world and only have the best in mind for this ongoing 30+ year story (Arena was published in 1994). In particular this part:

"I think so often about the sensibilities of contemporary audiences. Gone are the years of quietly interrogating a play's themes and values. Now, I often find rabbles of theatergoers huddled outside playhouses, wrestling not with the work itself, but with a perceived merit measured against such mindless drivel as plot holes and unlikable characters."

Then even framing it as somehow snobistic, because - think of the commoners!!!!

"But if stories are to survive, they must change with the times, yes? And I hear my critics now. How dare she reduce tragedy to fashionable action? To which I say, do the commoners not deserve art?"

And even having the "chronicler" calling this "remarkable" and "profound"...

From my point of view, it's respectless towards the audience.

Yes, I was rereading it and noticed it was written not actually as a dialogue between interviewer and creator. It was monologue by Dreams. The chronicler said nothing.

It's disturbing to see Dreams say that people are invalid and mindless to worry about things like plot and characters. If one is hoping to convey art in the form of written story, then plot and characters are the materials required to do so.

Dreams must be on too much moon sugar.

Syldras · February 14

Malyore wrote: »

It's disturbing to see Dreams say that people are invalid and mindless to worry about things like plot and characters.

It doesn't leave a good impression, especially after communication and cooperation was promised - all that "you belong", "eso fam", "we're building this game together" that came up after the big changes of last year - , to directly tell us that even very polite and factual criticism is not actually valued, but even seen as "mindless drivel" or "ramblings" not worth looking at.

Add to that putting such a message in game as a "lore"book.

But maybe we should be thankful about them letting us know. It surely influences my interest in engaging with this game and the question whether I'll spend any more money on it.

Malyore · February 14

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

It's disturbing to see Dreams say that people are invalid and mindless to worry about things like plot and characters.

It doesn't leave a good impression, especially after communication and cooperation was promised - all that "you belong", "eso fam", "we're building this game together" that came up after the big changes of last year - , to directly tell us that even very polite and factual criticism is not actually valued, but even seen as "mindless drivel" or "ramblings" not worth looking at.

Add to that putting such a message in game as a "lore"book.

But maybe we should be thankful about them letting us know. It surely influences my interest in engaging with this game and the question whether I'll spend any more money on it.

While I agree there are disturbing conclusions that can be drawn, I believe we have to measure our interpretation carefully. We don't know if this document in-game is being "directly told" to the audience by writers.
For all we know, Dreams really is on moon sugar. Or the document was written as a form of satire. Or it was a quest written years ago that is finally being used.

For now, it's something to just be aware of while we continue to watch and listen.

Syldras · February 14

Malyore wrote: »

While I agree there are disturbing conclusions that can be drawn, I believe we have to measure our interpretation carefully. We don't know if this document in-game is being "directly told" to the audience by writers.
For all we know, Dreams really is on moon sugar. Or the document was written as a form of satire.
It's something to be aware of while we continue to watch and listen.

Of course it's a fictional character who gave the "interview", and a fictional author who wrote that document. I still think it leaves a certain impression to see this come up in game, especially after criticism about the writing had become more prevalent over the past years. Whether it was meant the way I read it, or just a very unfortunate coincidence (Though it also made me wonder why my character would want to help that threatre troupe now that seems to care so little for their audience?) - I don't know of course. All I can do is to describe the impression I got when reading it, and the worry it causes.

Malyore · February 14

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

While I agree there are disturbing conclusions that can be drawn, I believe we have to measure our interpretation carefully. We don't know if this document in-game is being "directly told" to the audience by writers.
For all we know, Dreams really is on moon sugar. Or the document was written as a form of satire.
It's something to be aware of while we continue to watch and listen.

Of course it's a fictional character who gave the "interview", and a fictional author who wrote that document. I still think it leaves a certain impression to see this come up in game, especially after criticism about the writing had become more prevalent over the past years. Whether it was meant the way I read it, or just a very unfortunate coincidence (Though it also made me wonder why my character would want to help that threatre troupe now that seems to care so little for their audience?) - I don't know of course. All I can do is to describe the impression I got when reading it, and the worry it causes.

That is true. If the quest was edited during PTS, yet this was included on the launch...

Malyore · February 14

@Syldras I know you have a very large thread discussing the writing quality in ESO. It might be worth mentioning these newfound concerns there.

Syldras · February 14

Malyore wrote: »

@Syldras I know you have a very large thread discussing the writing quality in ESO. It might be worth mentioning these newfound concerns there.

I'm not sure how many people are still reading that thread, but I will, yes.

AScarlato · February 14

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

While I agree there are disturbing conclusions that can be drawn, I believe we have to measure our interpretation carefully. We don't know if this document in-game is being "directly told" to the audience by writers.
For all we know, Dreams really is on moon sugar. Or the document was written as a form of satire.
It's something to be aware of while we continue to watch and listen.

Of course it's a fictional character who gave the "interview", and a fictional author who wrote that document. I still think it leaves a certain impression to see this come up in game, especially after criticism about the writing had become more prevalent over the past years. Whether it was meant the way I read it, or just a very unfortunate coincidence (Though it also made me wonder why my character would want to help that threatre troupe now that seems to care so little for their audience?) - I don't know of course. All I can do is to describe the impression I got when reading it, and the worry it causes.

Given that I already viewed Heart's Day Quest 3 as their representation of players, it would not surprise me if that interview was also supposed to traverse the 4th wall. Particularly with its note of "new beginnings" which is something they have been talking about after leadership changes.

The interview just hits too close to what the writers have actually been doing - ignoring feedback about plotholes and I am assuming rewriting lore to their own liking for a "modern audience" that loves quirky characters that can't take the setting seriously. The writer of this piece patting themselves on the back finding their own work remarkable and profound is something I can imagine - which given how awful the writing direction has gone truly makes me laugh.

They also probably thought they were quite sneaky in being passive aggressive in a note that is hard to see and easily missed rather than simply having the NPC voice these thoughts directly in dialogue. If only they were so brave.

Syldras · February 14

From my point of view, it's also not exactly friendly towards the "commoners" either - who are implied to need simplified stories, clichéd characters, clear black and white schemes, and a sanitized depiction of daedric princes and reduction of more mature stories and themes in favor of quippy jokes, to enjoy the story.

Malyore · February 14

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

@Syldras I know you have a very large thread discussing the writing quality in ESO. It might be worth mentioning these newfound concerns there.

I'm not sure how many people are still reading that thread, but I will, yes.

Actually, a whole new thread would probably be apt to discuss this piece of writing more carefully. First though, it should be confirmed that the webpage contents matches the actual lorebook.

I uninstalled the game after completing the hearts day event and feeling disappointed again in the quests. I'm just waiting now for update 49 to release to check some of it out.
So someone else would have to check in-game.

Syldras · February 14

Malyore wrote: »

Actually, a whole new thread would probably be apt to discuss this piece of writing more carefully.

I think it would be worth it. Does anyone here want to do it? It's an important topic and I'm no native English speaker, so I don't want to accidentally write something that might come across as harsher than I had meant it. Also, I can't screenshot the English text because I'm playing a translation.

Malyore wrote: »

First though, it should be confirmed that the webpage contents matches the actual lorebook.

I only have the German version at hand which sounds even harsher, by the way. This is the location where it can be found (German translation even directly says "modern audiences"):

This is the passage I had quoted:

The "with a perceived merit measured against such mindless drivel" part is most literally translated as "...they try to elevate themselves by uttering mindless drivel".

Ignoring that most people will not criticize plot holes and other writing problems "to aggrandize/elevate themselves" but out of love and care for a story that they love, often for many years.

Malyore · February 14

I'm also curious if that paper will disappear from the table after the event.
---
The dunmer celebrate Heart's Week with Almalexia as their icon rather than Mara, yes? Who knew the lorebooks would share Almalexia's personality too.

Syldras · February 14

I actually expected the lorebook to tell me more about the story the theatre group is playing, the myth of Polydor and Eloisa, that was first mentioned in TES1 Arena (though I'm not sure whether their names were already mentioned in TES1, but in TES2 Daggerfall I can say for sure that they were). Of course it could have also become an interesting treatise on how myths evolve naturally through retellings, as it also often happens in the real world. It's a pity, as lore on this would have been interesting.

Malyore · February 15

Syldras wrote: »

I actually expected the lorebook to tell me more about the story the theatre group is playing, the myth of Polydor and Eloisa, that was first mentioned in TES1 Arena (though I'm not sure whether their names were already mentioned in TES1, but in TES2 Daggerfall I can say for sure that they were). Of course it could have also become an interesting treatise on how myths evolve naturally through retellings, as it also often happens in the real world. It's a pity, as lore on this would have been interesting.

I don't remember seeing anything about that in Arena. It was just fetch quests and randomized NPC names, largely. When were they mentioned? Daggerfall broke on me before I could really play it, but I'm not surprised they are mentioned in that giant game.

It's an interesting callback to maintain. Have they always been the focus on this celebration?

Syldras · February 15

Malyore wrote: »

I don't remember seeing anything about that in Arena. It was just fetch quests and randomized NPC names, largely. When were they mentioned? Daggerfall broke on me before I could really play it, but I'm not surprised they are mentioned in that giant game.
It's an interesting callback to maintain. Have they always been the focus on this celebration?

I just checked, it seemed to have already been in Arena, showing up in the calendar as well as in randomized npc dialogue:
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/arena-holidays
"Today is the 16th of Sun's Dawn, a holiday celebrated all over Tamriel as Heart's Day. It seems that in every house, the Legend of the Lovers is being sung for the younger generation. In honor of these Lovers, Polydor and Eloisa, the inns of the (city type) offer a free room for visitors. If such kindness had been given the Lovers, it is said, it would always be springtime in the world."

Malyore · February 15

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I don't remember seeing anything about that in Arena. It was just fetch quests and randomized NPC names, largely. When were they mentioned? Daggerfall broke on me before I could really play it, but I'm not surprised they are mentioned in that giant game.
It's an interesting callback to maintain. Have they always been the focus on this celebration?

I just checked, it seemed to have already been in Arena, showing up in the calendar as well as in randomized npc dialogue:
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/arena-holidays
"Today is the 16th of Sun's Dawn, a holiday celebrated all over Tamriel as Heart's Day. It seems that in every house, the Legend of the Lovers is being sung for the younger generation. In honor of these Lovers, Polydor and Eloisa, the inns of the (city type) offer a free room for visitors. If such kindness had been given the Lovers, it is said, it would always be springtime in the world."

I must've been knee deep in the Crypt of Hearts then for my celebration in arena, haha.

Syldras · February 15

I do wonder about the background idea for that couple. The name Polydor comes up in different Ancient Greek myths. Eloisa reminds me of Abelard and Heloise from medieval France, which was actually an absolutely horrible story. I've once been at their grave in Paris, actually, over 15 years ago.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 15

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

It's disturbing to see Dreams say that people are invalid and mindless to worry about things like plot and characters.

It doesn't leave a good impression, especially after communication and cooperation was promised - all that "you belong", "eso fam", "we're building this game together" that came up after the big changes of last year - , to directly tell us that even very polite and factual criticism is not actually valued, but even seen as "mindless drivel" or "ramblings" not worth looking at.

Add to that putting such a message in game as a "lore"book.

But maybe we should be thankful about them letting us know. It surely influences my interest in engaging with this game and the question whether I'll spend any more money on it.

I frankly couldn't believe what I read when you pointed out this note to me, because it does not feel like a lore book at all written by a person in Tamriel. Even less so Dreams, unless I'm supposed to really start question her role as a playwriter, artist, view of the world around her, and her opinion of commoners.
It truly feels like the devs used these characters as mouthpieces to passively aggresive complain about the playerbase and the critism of the writing's fall in quality. Which makes me baffled to why. Did they think it was sneaky and smart, not expecting us to read it as that, or did they add it and knew we would? Neither of which are pleasant, because we are either seen as dumb or they openly mock us for having valid critism of a world and game we love and want to play and enjoy.
This is a reaction I expect to see on some fanfiction/writers website from someone not handling critism well or someone with a need to soapbox in their writing, not a reaction I expect nor want to see from a massive company which we give a lot of our time and money to. This is also the second time within a day or two I've mentioned soapboxing in ESO's writing....

Worst is though, this note gives me the vibe that they are going to ignore the critism, because there's nothing wrong and they aren't going to change. At which point I ask myself, why shall I remain here? Because even after these latest years which I'm unhappy about I'm hoping, I'm hoping apprently like a fool that things will be better. Because I love Elder Scrolls and want ESO to be a game I can enjoy again, with quests I like doing. My critisism is born from passion and care about the world and game. I want it better. If that's not going to happen...then what's the point? Why should I stay? I'm just wasting it, and my time and money while being ignored and maybe even mocked.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 15

This just made me sad.

Syldras · February 15

I'm wondering whether this lorebook is a direct reaction to the criticism that had come up about lore mistakes when the event showed up on PTS the first time in September 2025? All I know is that I didn't see it on PTS back then, and the first mentioning of it on UESP is in November 2025 (when the East Solstice update dropped, even if it wasn't visible in game then, it probably first showed up in the game files then), which is clearly after that pts cycle. But, I don't know for sure - maybe it had already been there in September before the criticism came up and I just missed it. Perhaps someone else who had been on pts remembers?

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 15

Syldras wrote: »

I'm wondering whether this lorebook is a direct reaction to the criticism that had come up about lore mistakes when the event showed up on PTS the first time in September 2025? All I know is that I didn't see it on PTS back then, and the first mentioning of it on UESP is in November 2025 (when the East Solstice update dropped, even if it wasn't visible in game then, it probably first showed up in the game files then), which is clearly after that pts cycle. But, I don't know for sure - maybe it had already been there in September before the criticism came up and I just missed it. Perhaps someone else who had been on pts remembers?

We have been critisising the writing and lore mistakes for quite some time, Syldras