Pain Points and Ideas for the Warden Class Refresh (plus Destruction staff)

YandereGirlfriend · February 5

Destai wrote: »

Long time Warden main here, incredibly vested in how this turns out.

My biggest pain point is the inconsistent themes in the class. I have 3 wardens, and I had wanted them to be roughly a ranger, a frost mage, and a druid. That's not doable because we really only have 1.5 DPS skill lines. The Animal companions skill line is too married to Vvardenfell.

robpr wrote: »

I'd be rather concerned that Warden already has distinct dps-heal-tank lines and majority of Tank tools are in the line you desperately want to be a dps line instead. Where you would switch them around to even make any sense and make room for frost dps? Armor buff to Living Vines? Enemy pull to Nature's Grasp? Should the pure healing line get a damaging skill too?

DK could this because its rather thematically consistent, Warden is such a mess of a design.

It is. And like @tomofhyrule said, there's this desire to have DPS morphs of the support skill lines. This first came onto radar thanks to SkinnyCheeks, but I see no reason why we couldn't have this. It would reduce morphs per role, and expand the build capabilities of the jack-of-all-trades class. I'm envisioning a DPS line for Green Balance, focused on poison (poisonous plants) and a maturation of the frost damage capabilities

Personally, I don't think bleed is the best fit for Wardens. IMO, that makes the most sense for Nightblades, who are essentially blood mages, as represented in their Siphoning skill line.

I think ZOS needs to align on the core aesthetic for this class. It sounds like "Seasons" is it, but we don't know how that'll actually play out.

I think that Bleed arose in the logical context that animals with claws can cut you, hence Bleed. And then there is the secondary missed opportunity that ice is also sharp and can easily cut you if you are careless around it. However, the connection to ice is perhaps overthinking it and it could instead be distilled into Frost only, since that is the underlying form of what is actually causing the damage.

In any case, while cool and interesting for its time, I would not hate or fight against Bleed leaving Warden and flowing instead to Nightblade, which, I would agree, makes the most sense given the inclusion of Blood Magic in their class kit. It also helps to fight against lazy Magic Damage spam, which is already way too over-represented in the game.

Part of shifting Warden into Poison is also practical - because, if not them, then who among the existing classes even viably can? Nightblade might have had a claim if their skills were re-worked (and Necromancer should have the obvious new monopoly on Disease type) but that isn't the order of operations that we were given.

And Poison solves the clear issue with Warden of giving Green Balance some additional purpose in the game outside of generally under-powered healing line.

ESO_Nightingale · February 5

unbeknownst to me, this post and my other one was moved to general.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · February 6

I am a Warden main and there is nothing I miss more than my frost dps pure Warden. And healing end game as a pure Warden. Or tanking end game as a pure Warden. The game has not been the same since last summer. That Warden caused tremendous aoe and dot damage and you could outrun just about anything with Falcon's swiftness. Spam with the bird, keep up a dot while healing. It even had real resistances through its frost line. In those days, Whorl of the Depths and Pillar of Nirn were in their hay day. And it was fun to run Iceheart.

Ill add my two cents because the Warden refresh will be the deal breaker of whether I stay with this game or shut my guilds down and move us somewhere else.
Firstly, the class refresh should be tailored to the use of pure class, meaning all three Warden lines together. Not about how it will get cherry picked by subclass. Or even worse designed around another skill line or class like Nighblade.

The Warden is and always was strong in support roles and this needs to be addressed. And maintained. Everything in the game is not and should not be about dps.

Breaking up the Green Balance line is a bad idea from the healing aspect of the game. Wardens are the best of healers and this should always be part of their uniqueness. One thing its always needed is its own cleanse. One that is more cost efficient than Purge and is usable on group members. Just about every healer in the game uses this line in healing. While some people do not like the blue betty, its worth noting that its needed for sustain and that it keeps the healer alive and able to keep healing free of status effects in group content (though that's changed somewhat since subclass). But it's mandatory for pureclass to be effective. And that sustain should be carefully examined for its necessity in support roles as well.

Strong and pure healing lines are necessary to maintain healing support roles.

Regarding the dps, consideration needs to be given to the aoe. Any aoe it has or by extension Chilling explosion (even though its a scribing skill) needs to be checked against the aoe arcanist beam which should not be direct damage either. Or, the rest of the aoe need to be converted to direct damage for fairness and to close the obscene gap between meta. That aside, it should still have worthy dot and spammables. The effects of those are equally important for things like 'off balance'.
You should also restore the damage to its Ultimate that was nerfed. Or only apply the reduction in PvP.

Though it pains me to talk about it in the past tense, Wardens were known for being strong sustainable self healing tanks. Powerful and very sustainable healing among all 3 healing types. And while unique, able to cause tremendous damage with almost any damage type or effect in end game. Or to cause those effects when others do not. They were somewhat a jack of all trades but still able to compete in all roles and on leaderboards. And should be allowed to do so again - without subclass.

LunaFlora · February 6

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

unbeknownst to me, this post and my other one was moved to general.

Kevin said this on Wednesday:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. Over the next day or two, we will be moving some un-related threads out of the PTS section. While we know some folks are excited for things like Werewolf and Warden changes, having threads like those in the PTS section now is making it difficult to read through current PTS feedback. We'll be moving these to either the General section or an appropriate section based on the context of the thread. Thanks for understanding!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688464/moving-some-threads-in-the-pts-section

ESO_Nightingale · February 6

LunaFlora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

unbeknownst to me, this post and my other one was moved to general.

Kevin said this on Wednesday:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. Over the next day or two, we will be moving some un-related threads out of the PTS section. While we know some folks are excited for things like Werewolf and Warden changes, having threads like those in the PTS section now is making it difficult to read through current PTS feedback. We'll be moving these to either the General section or an appropriate section based on the context of the thread. Thanks for understanding!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688464/moving-some-threads-in-the-pts-section

ah i definitely missed this.

ESO_Nightingale · February 6

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

I am a Warden main and there is nothing I miss more than my frost dps pure Warden. And healing end game as a pure Warden. Or tanking end game as a pure Warden. The game has not been the same since last summer. That Warden caused tremendous aoe and dot damage and you could outrun just about anything with Falcon's swiftness. Spam with the bird, keep up a dot while healing. It even had real resistances through its frost line. In those days, Whorl of the Depths and Pillar of Nirn were in their hay day. And it was fun to run Iceheart.

Ill add my two cents because the Warden refresh will be the deal breaker of whether I stay with this game or shut my guilds down and move us somewhere else.
Firstly, the class refresh should be tailored to the use of pure class, meaning all three Warden lines together. Not about how it will get cherry picked by subclass. Or even worse designed around another skill line or class like Nighblade.

The Warden is and always was strong in support roles and this needs to be addressed. And maintained. Everything in the game is not and should not be about dps.

Breaking up the Green Balance line is a bad idea from the healing aspect of the game. Wardens are the best of healers and this should always be part of their uniqueness. One thing its always needed is its own cleanse. One that is more cost efficient than Purge and is usable on group members. Just about every healer in the game uses this line in healing. While some people do not like the blue betty, its worth noting that its needed for sustain and that it keeps the healer alive and able to keep healing free of status effects in group content (though that's changed somewhat since subclass). But it's mandatory for pureclass to be effective. And that sustain should be carefully examined for its necessity in support roles as well.

Strong and pure healing lines are necessary to maintain healing support roles.

Regarding the dps, consideration needs to be given to the aoe. Any aoe it has or by extension Chilling explosion (even though its a scribing skill) needs to be checked against the aoe arcanist beam which should not be direct damage either. Or, the rest of the aoe need to be converted to direct damage for fairness and to close the obscene gap between meta. That aside, it should still have worthy dot and spammables. The effects of those are equally important for things like 'off balance'.
You should also restore the damage to its Ultimate that was nerfed. Or only apply the reduction in PvP.

Though it pains me to talk about it in the past tense, Wardens were known for being strong sustainable self healing tanks. Powerful and very sustainable healing among all 3 healing types. And while unique, able to cause tremendous damage with almost any damage type or effect in end game. Or to cause those effects when others do not. They were somewhat a jack of all trades but still able to compete in all roles and on leaderboards. And should be allowed to do so again - without subclass.

Given the new philosophy they kind of have to break up the green balance and winters embrace lines to give some of that role functionality to other lines. For example, i can easily see them moving the tank pull to bursting vines and an offensive stat based single target instant burst heal to polar wind.

ESO_Nightingale · February 7

Hey everyone, my video on this is well underway, i've just completed the script and recorded some background footage. tomorrow i plan to do voiceover and editing, though theres a lot of that so it might take a few days. i plan to get it all done within the next few days.

ESO_Nightingale · February 8

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hey everyone, my video on this is well underway, i've just completed the script and recorded some background footage. tomorrow i plan to do voiceover and editing, though theres a lot of that so it might take a few days. i plan to get it all done within the next few days.

it's done!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMZK4xp96-A

LunaFlora · February 8

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hey everyone, my video on this is well underway, i've just completed the script and recorded some background footage. tomorrow i plan to do voiceover and editing, though theres a lot of that so it might take a few days. i plan to get it all done within the next few days.

it's done! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMZK4xp96-A

awesome video♥ hoping ZOS uses the feedback, it would definitely improve Warden and make it more fun

ESO_Nightingale · February 9

LunaFlora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hey everyone, my video on this is well underway, i've just completed the script and recorded some background footage. tomorrow i plan to do voiceover and editing, though theres a lot of that so it might take a few days. i plan to get it all done within the next few days.

it's done! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMZK4xp96-A

awesome video♥ hoping ZOS uses the feedback, it would definitely improve Warden and make it more fun

Thanks!

SneaK · February 9

My vote is they delete the Warden class. That would be truly REFRESHING.

Faltasë · February 9

SneaK wrote: »

My vote is they delete the Warden class. That would be truly REFRESHING.

This seems a little extreme lmao

ESO_Nightingale · February 10

Faltasë wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

My vote is they delete the Warden class. That would be truly REFRESHING.

This seems a little extreme lmao

yeah, imagine how this dude would feel if everyone wished away his favourite class.

ZhuJiuyin · February 10

I remember an official on the PTS forum saying that they had started working on a rework of Warden. It would be great if the developers could maintain discussions with players from the very beginning of the rework, at least we could try to prevent some obviously unpopular changes from happening before they are recoded.

SneaK · February 10

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

My vote is they delete the Warden class. That would be truly REFRESHING.

This seems a little extreme lmao

yeah, imagine how this dude would feel if everyone wished away his favourite class.

Was being sarcastic..

On topic, I think Warden should get Charm taken away, and they should lean into frost damage more along with better companions. Beetles seem odd, so does the magic damage part, they are summoning beetles, are the beetles magic? No, they’re beetles. Oh and a magic bear, why not just a bear, seems like it’s just a bear, doesn’t look like a magic bear.

ESO_Nightingale · February 11

SneaK wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

My vote is they delete the Warden class. That would be truly REFRESHING.

This seems a little extreme lmao

yeah, imagine how this dude would feel if everyone wished away his favourite class.

Was being sarcastic..

On topic, I think Warden should get Charm taken away, and they should lean into frost damage more along with better companions. Beetles seem odd, so does the magic damage part, they are summoning beetles, are the beetles magic? No, they’re beetles. Oh and a magic bear, why not just a bear, seems like it’s just a bear, doesn’t look like a magic bear.

Yeah it's strange. i really think the vvardenfell theme shot them in the foot.

Lekjih · February 12

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Sometimes I feel like ZOS should split the Warden and move some of its themes and abilities over to the new class.

As usual, I like the ideas for proper Frost Wardens, my biggest issues are with the destruction staff changes because for the most part what you proposed will end up being a nerf and I'm not sure that is needed. We have scribing now for pure elemental spammables so the need for Force Shock to change is lower than ever.

Speaking of Scribing, the Warden class mastery is not it. Charms are not thematic if you ask me and they are incredibly obnoxious in PvP because they are not telegraphed and come from a gigantic AOE. And unlike with other crowd control your character just keeps moving which makes it still to this day very easy to miss during the action. I think this should change and is probably something fun to think about when it comes to reimagining the class.

The other things that needs addressing is the power of Warden in the context of subclassing. Swapping abilities and passives seems to be how ZOS has chosen to address subclassing, so let's think a bit about that.

Netch is a very strong ability that makes animal companions more attractive for subclassing than it deserves to be. I think moving Netch out of Animal companions and into Green Balance alone would already fix a lot, especially because something out of Green Balance would have to move over (Nature's Grasp perhaps).
The other change to Netch that I would propose is that Netch doesn't continously cleanse you but rather cleanses you when the ability ends, cleansing more effects depending on its duration. Think of the way Rally's heal works. I don't like that Wardens can cast Netch and just shrug off effects without needing to use magicka for it at all. Changing its function like this would promote making choices of when to use Netch instead of letting people mindlessly spam Netch while on the run.
I think it would be fair if the ability cleanses 0 effects upon first cast, 1 effect if the ability ends/is recast after the first second has passed, 2 effects after 6seconds have passed, 3 effects after 11 seconds, 4 effects after 16seconds and 5 effects after 21 seconds.
I also propose Netch restores your highest maximum resource, rolling both morphs into one to free up the other morph for some cool new ability/effect maybe.

As for what the Warden's core concept, like Crux or corpses, could be, from the description ZOS gave us, my thoughts were that Wardens go through seasons during combat and abilities undergo slight changes in effect in different seasons. Will that be a mess? Yeah, probably. But it sounds cool, rewards practising your class and could work even with only one Warden skill line present. Think of item sets like Saint and Seducer, Daedric Trickery etc, just with a predictable pattern. Warden could work kind of like that and could have abilities reading "When this ability is cast while in Spring state: It also grants minor mending" or something. Would I prefer if Warden fully embraced winter and only winter? Yes. But I don't think this is on the table for ZOS sadly.

Netch is an animal. It should stay in animals.Besides which it's shalks and wings with netch as second fiddle in terms of most desirable. Its purge is fine as is.
Green balance needs some damage morphs.
Wardens are story tellers. Charisma is their main stat, metaphorically speaking, charm makes sense. It needs a cooldown, but it makes sense.
I don't want crux or corpses or any other extra resource that needs maintaining and spending, it is obnoxious. It's obnoxious on necro and arcanist and only tolerated on Arcanist because they cleave and cleave well. Daedric trickery and Saint and Seducer are both annoying sets. Class identity doesn't mean make everything into an arcanist but themed different. Everyone is talking channels and beams and crux for every class. This defeats the objective of class identity. It makes warden into "Arc with bears"

I really think people are so confused by class and class identity. Wardens are not just frost mages. They are storytellers who protect nature. Dragonknights are not fire mages. They are trained in Akaviri magic. Sorcerers aren't generic mages either, they have bartered with something for power and their chosen elemental magic is secondary (but still part of who they are). Nightblades are opportunists. They use what's available everywhere - shadow and blood. Templars are the holy scourge of the undead, they wield light magic to burn the undead and sacred spears. Spears and light don't otherwise mesh but people accept it works on a templar. Necros and Arcanists are so heavily themed in their magics that no one questions it, but the others arennot randomly mashed together either

ESO_Nightingale · February 12

Lekjih wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Sometimes I feel like ZOS should split the Warden and move some of its themes and abilities over to the new class.

As usual, I like the ideas for proper Frost Wardens, my biggest issues are with the destruction staff changes because for the most part what you proposed will end up being a nerf and I'm not sure that is needed. We have scribing now for pure elemental spammables so the need for Force Shock to change is lower than ever.

Speaking of Scribing, the Warden class mastery is not it. Charms are not thematic if you ask me and they are incredibly obnoxious in PvP because they are not telegraphed and come from a gigantic AOE. And unlike with other crowd control your character just keeps moving which makes it still to this day very easy to miss during the action. I think this should change and is probably something fun to think about when it comes to reimagining the class.

The other things that needs addressing is the power of Warden in the context of subclassing. Swapping abilities and passives seems to be how ZOS has chosen to address subclassing, so let's think a bit about that.

Netch is a very strong ability that makes animal companions more attractive for subclassing than it deserves to be. I think moving Netch out of Animal companions and into Green Balance alone would already fix a lot, especially because something out of Green Balance would have to move over (Nature's Grasp perhaps).
The other change to Netch that I would propose is that Netch doesn't continously cleanse you but rather cleanses you when the ability ends, cleansing more effects depending on its duration. Think of the way Rally's heal works. I don't like that Wardens can cast Netch and just shrug off effects without needing to use magicka for it at all. Changing its function like this would promote making choices of when to use Netch instead of letting people mindlessly spam Netch while on the run.
I think it would be fair if the ability cleanses 0 effects upon first cast, 1 effect if the ability ends/is recast after the first second has passed, 2 effects after 6seconds have passed, 3 effects after 11 seconds, 4 effects after 16seconds and 5 effects after 21 seconds.
I also propose Netch restores your highest maximum resource, rolling both morphs into one to free up the other morph for some cool new ability/effect maybe.

As for what the Warden's core concept, like Crux or corpses, could be, from the description ZOS gave us, my thoughts were that Wardens go through seasons during combat and abilities undergo slight changes in effect in different seasons. Will that be a mess? Yeah, probably. But it sounds cool, rewards practising your class and could work even with only one Warden skill line present. Think of item sets like Saint and Seducer, Daedric Trickery etc, just with a predictable pattern. Warden could work kind of like that and could have abilities reading "When this ability is cast while in Spring state: It also grants minor mending" or something. Would I prefer if Warden fully embraced winter and only winter? Yes. But I don't think this is on the table for ZOS sadly.

Netch is an animal. It should stay in animals.Besides which it's shalks and wings with netch as second fiddle in terms of most desirable. Its purge is fine as is.
Green balance needs some damage morphs.
Wardens are story tellers. Charisma is their main stat, metaphorically speaking, charm makes sense. It needs a cooldown, but it makes sense.
I don't want crux or corpses or any other extra resource that needs maintaining and spending, it is obnoxious. It's obnoxious on necro and arcanist and only tolerated on Arcanist because they cleave and cleave well. Daedric trickery and Saint and Seducer are both annoying sets. Class identity doesn't mean make everything into an arcanist but themed different. Everyone is talking channels and beams and crux for every class. This defeats the objective of class identity. It makes warden into "Arc with bears"

I really think people are so confused by class and class identity. Wardens are not just frost mages. They are storytellers who protect nature. Dragonknights are not fire mages. They are trained in Akaviri magic. Sorcerers aren't generic mages either, they have bartered with something for power and their chosen elemental magic is secondary (but still part of who they are). Nightblades are opportunists. They use what's available everywhere - shadow and blood. Templars are the holy scourge of the undead, they wield light magic to burn the undead and sacred spears. Spears and light don't otherwise mesh but people accept it works on a templar. Necros and Arcanists are so heavily themed in their magics that no one questions it, but the others arennot randomly mashed together either

i'm surprised to hear you wouldn't want a class mechanic on warden. i always thought class mechanics were super fun, at least in other games anyway. crux and corpses are definitely clunkier than stuff like molten whip's seething fury stacks.

AzuraFan · February 12

Lekjih wrote: »

I don't want crux or corpses or any other extra resource that needs maintaining and spending...

Agreed. I've always hated the mechanic of having to build up some resource that then drains if you don't use it fast enough. It's why I don't like the arcanist class, and why I never play a class with that mechanic in any game. I really hope they don't add anything like it to the warden.

ESO_Nightingale · February 13

AzuraFan wrote: »

Lekjih wrote: »

I don't want crux or corpses or any other extra resource that needs maintaining and spending...

Agreed. I've always hated the mechanic of having to build up some resource that then drains if you don't use it fast enough. It's why I don't like the arcanist class, and why I never play a class with that mechanic in any game. I really hope they don't add anything like it to the warden.

I think the issue might be the implementation

AzuraFan · February 13

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Lekjih wrote: »

I don't want crux or corpses or any other extra resource that needs maintaining and spending...

Agreed. I've always hated the mechanic of having to build up some resource that then drains if you don't use it fast enough. It's why I don't like the arcanist class, and why I never play a class with that mechanic in any game. I really hope they don't add anything like it to the warden.

I think the issue might be the implementation

I'm not sure what you mean. In what way?

ESO_Nightingale · February 13

AzuraFan wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Lekjih wrote: »

I don't want crux or corpses or any other extra resource that needs maintaining and spending...

Agreed. I've always hated the mechanic of having to build up some resource that then drains if you don't use it fast enough. It's why I don't like the arcanist class, and why I never play a class with that mechanic in any game. I really hope they don't add anything like it to the warden.

I think the issue might be the implementation

I'm not sure what you mean. In what way?

Corpses and crux are kind of clunky in the way they're designed. Corpses are hard to target and crux is hard to keep track of. The ui for it could be a lot better.

AzuraFan · February 13

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Corpses and crux are kind of clunky in the way they're designed. Corpses are hard to target and crux is hard to keep track of. The ui for it could be a lot better.

It's not the specific implementation or UI that I dislike for crux. I just don't like the mechanic of building up a resource that then depletes if you don't use it fast enough. I never have, and I don't play classes that use it, in ESO or any other game.

I'm not familiar with how corpses are used in ESO because I don't play a necromancer, so I can't comment on that.

ESO_Nightingale · February 13

AzuraFan wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Corpses and crux are kind of clunky in the way they're designed. Corpses are hard to target and crux is hard to keep track of. The ui for it could be a lot better.

It's not the specific implementation or UI that I dislike for crux. I just don't like the mechanic of building up a resource that then depletes if you don't use it fast enough. I never have, and I don't play classes that use it, in ESO or any other game.

I'm not familiar with how corpses are used in ESO because I don't play a necromancer, so I can't comment on that.

I see.

Lekjih · February 14

You say you find class mechanics fun, and I'm happy for you given the widespread use of Arc, but not all people do. Corpses can be a pain but crux is easy enough to track. I just don't want to. It's obnoxious. It makes a class have to warm up going into battle - oh no the flail didn't go off properly because I wasn't looking directly AT the enemy (because of game bug) and now I am two crux beaming, wasting damage and time. It's an extra resource to manage and I don't want to manage it. Necros are the class I just don't bother with because they both have corpses to manage and little value as a pve dps in hard mode content, and Arcs are the class I wish I didn't have to bother with because I hate crux management with a passion. I tried a runeblades build for fun and it didn't suddenly make it bearable, it just made me rethink my pirate. Never been a fan of molten whip stacks either but it was that one ability and I could ignore it if I wanted to, It doesn't impede the function of the rest of the abilities as is.

As someone who has mained a warden since its launch, I do not want a crux/corpse adjacent mechanic. Equally I don't want a beam or any other channel. We're supposed to be having classes play differently to each other and have identity, but also beams and channels make it slow to react, you have to break the beam or channel, and that doesn't fit with the power fantasy of an adjustable, quick-witted class. Wardens should have a decent amount of speed and a decent amount of power, even if we're not as fast as Blades or Sorcs.

Zodiarkslayer · February 14

The problem with class mechanics is the reward that you get for engaging with it. If you get a serious buff for mastering the mechanic, that is all good and fine, but the punishment for not engaging with the class mechanic is where the issue lies. The base lines need to be comparable in power.

We need to get rid of punishment and focus on rewarding engagement and mastery. Not the other way around.

ESO_Nightingale · February 14

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

The problem with class mechanics is the reward that you get for engaging with it. If you get a serious buff for mastering the mechanic, that is all good and fine, but the punishment for not engaging with the class mechanic is where the issue lies. The base lines need to be comparable in power.

We need to get rid of punishment and focus on rewarding engagement and mastery. Not the other way around.

Rewarding mastery of the class should always be the goal.

Zodiarkslayer · 7:48AM

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

... Rewarding mastery of the class should always be the goal.

Absolutely. Yet look what Necromancer has deteriorated into (high effort, no reward) and how Arcanist got set up for success (no effort, high reward).

All I am saying is that a Warden (and, to be fair, all other classes as well) class mechanic needs to be neither.

Zodiarkslayer · 10:25AM

I'd like to come back to the Destruction staffs. In my opinion we should have a separate tanking staff, that doesn't impede any of the Destruction oriented elemental staffs.

I think a new Alteration Staff is the best solution. It would be ideal, because Armor spells, paralyze spells and other utilities like speed or slow are canonically already Alteration school spells and it makes so much sense to build around that.

All passives of the Destruction staff line can now be redesigned to focus on damage dealing (I mean it's in the name! DESTRUCTION. 😮‍💨) and emphasizing the respective element, while not being held back from having to provide utilities for tanking or support.
In that regard, I'd personally like to see a spell damage buff to using destro staffs, because this is essentially why they have fallen behind melee weapons oh so much and are rarely used by DDs in group content.

Lekjih · 11:34AM

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I'd like to come back to the Destruction staffs. In my opinion we should have a separate tanking staff, that doesn't impede any of the Destruction oriented elemental staffs.

I think a new Alteration Staff is the best solution. It would be ideal, because Armor spells, paralyze spells and other utilities like speed or slow are canonically already Alteration school spells and it makes so much sense to build around that.

All passives of the Destruction staff line can now be redesigned to focus on damage dealing (I mean it's in the name! DESTRUCTION. 😮‍💨) and emphasizing the respective element, while not being held back from having to provide utilities for tanking or support.
In that regard, I'd personally like to see a spell damage buff to using destro staffs, because this is essentially why they have fallen behind melee weapons oh so much and are rarely used by DDs in group content.

They wouldn't even need to add any new weapons, it's just another staff. The resting animation might need some inventiveness but aside from that.