xylena wrote: »

Not perfect, but least they are working towards a solution, not just letting it rot.

i'd love to be this optimistic, but they've been working towards a solution for years, and i'm pretty sure Challenge Difficulty is the solution. we aren't going to get another system later. this is what we get, that's it.

so it's important to be clear to ZOS as soon as possible that this isn't what we want.

CalamityCat wrote: »

If someone joined in on a harder fight with their difficulty lower, I can easily just wait for the next spawn and try again. Unless there's an event on, it's not that much of an inconvenience.

Is it genuinely that difficult for players to take turns in a multiplayer game? Actually don't answer that, I know the answer already!

literally not possible on PCEU. every delve boss has 2-3 people waiting for it to respawn to instantly kill it.

could they take turns? sure, i guess. but this is an MMORPG, not a single player game -- why should they be expected to do that?

SilverBride wrote: »

That is no different than it is now.

please stop saying "this is the same as it is now" over and over again. you've made this comment 3-4 times in this thread alone. do you not understand that the purpose of introducing a new system is so that things will not be the same as they are now? that's the entire point of having a new system.

flyingparchment wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That is no different than it is now.

please stop saying "this is the same as it is now" over and over again. you've made this comment 3-4 times in this thread alone. do you not understand that the purpose of introducing a new system is so that things will not be the same as they are they? that's the entire point of having a new system.

I was saying things will be no different in the context of different level and skilled players fighting the same enemies, which has been brought up as a problem. But that happens now and is not a result of the new system.

Challenge modes aren't supposed to replace how overland works. It's only to make the combat more difficult for those that opt in.

flyingparchment wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A lot of major quest stuff is instanced already

it really isn't. a small amount of specific areas are instanced, but the overwhelming majority of quests are in overland.

there's really no reasonable expectation that a public dungeon would be a solo instance.

right, of course not. this is exactly why ZOS's proposal doesn't work.

You also don't run into people constantly because they already keep the instances populated in such a way that we're not tripping over each other all time.

i constantly run into other people in delves, PD, and even zone quests. like i said in OP -- it's very unusual that i'm in a PD or a delve and there's no other player there. i think you play on Playstation, and maybe things are different there, but it's not like this on PCEU.

It's really not as small of an amount as it's being made out to be. Yeah most of the base game stuff isn't but dlc stuff has had major story beats in private instances for a while now. It is not uncommon where the quest is you go to talk to the NPCs and do some legwork in the overworld killing some minions and grabbing this or that item before confronting a mini boss in a private encounter.

I run into people in delves and public dungeons too but we're usually spread out enough we're not stepping on each other's toes. Delves have gotten bigger since base game. And base game stuff outside of popular farming areas is pretty low pop in my experience.

I took a couple of videos this weekend, just gotta get them up here. Because I did consider that maybe this is a server thing so I should ask y'all if this is what y'all are seeing.

I'll admit that I have no idea how the combat team is going about complying with the demands of higher ups at ZOS, who have obviously made it clear that whatever system they come up with must 1) not split the playerbase and 2) maintain combat immersion as much as possible.

It might not seem like it but there are ways to design an overworld with a tiered difficulty and loot without splitting the playerbase or ruining combat immersion completely.
One such design which I read about a while ago but can't now remember exactly where, involves the use of hp containers - a Russian Doll approach.
Basically, when applied to Challenge Difficulty (which has four tiers - Adventurer, Seasoned, Master and Vestige), every mob gets four hp containers all stacked on top of each other. However, you only get to see the hp bar relevant to your difficulty.

On live right now any mob has just one hp container (dungeon mobs technically have 3 - normal, vet and HM, but these are never active all at once), and so on live both a 2500cp and 35cp player attack the same hp container when fighting a mob.

With a stacked model, the one I read about, a vestige difficulty player and an Adventurer Difficulty (ADf) player both engage different hp containers even though attacking the same mob and at the same time - each works to deplete a container relevant to their difficulty. If another ADf player shows up they work with other ADf players to deplete the adventurer hp container.
From what it said this way even though the lower difficulty player(s) likely "kill" the mob first, it's only a phantom kill (the mob becomes ghosted, but only for them), meanwhile the same mob keeps fighting the higher difficulty player - and in this way the combat immersion of the higher difficulty player is preserved.
However, since mob ghosting is unavoidable with this approach, rewards aren't looted off corpses but from spawned chests.

Basically, because of the conditions set - don't split the playerbase, offer tiered loot and maintain combat immersion, the available solutions come with server cpu cost and complexity. A downside which maybe those making the decisions feel is fair compared to a split the playerbase approach.

I'm not at ZOS but their decision to go with a 'don't split the playerbase' approach suggests that in their opinion the cons of their system are more forgiving than the alternative.

flyingparchment wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And base game stuff outside of popular farming areas is pretty low pop in my experience.

I took a couple of videos this weekend, just gotta get them up here. Because I did consider that maybe this is a server thing so I should ask y'all if this is what y'all are seeing.

you originally said "base game stuff outside of popular farming areas is pretty dead", then edited it to say "low pop", but either way i don't think this is true in a way that affects what ZOS are proposing.

let me, again, repeat a common situation i run into while doing base game dailies for scripts etc.: it is extremely unusual that i go into a delve and there isn't at least 1 person, and usually more, waiting to kill the boss. if i'm in a PD, it is extremely unusual that there isn't another player around. in fact, it's fairly uncommon that i need to kill anything in a PD, since all the stuff on the way to the mage's guild daily will be dead.

as i said, i play on PCEU, and maybe this is different on other servers, but i can only talk about the game i actually play. is this different for you? if you regularly find public dungeons deserted, i can see why you wouldn't have such an issue with ZOS proposal, but it simply does not work for PCEU players -- and there are quite a few of us.

I edited it to low pop because it expressed the same opinion but more neutral in tone as I'm not trying to diss PSNA. I didn't want the word choice to imply something I didn't mean.

They aren't deserted but people are spread out. I don't run into a ton of interference. As I said, I'll upload a video I did on Solstice.

Edit
https://youtu.be/S1DFDCyeIhY

It will work as "designed". It will raise player numbers by 1-2% for the price of some cheap scripts to modify damage values.
Try to think like the people who actually decide what we get and what we don't. Or better don't, we really don't need more of them.

flyingparchment wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I believe the complaint is that other players not opting in to difficulty may jump in and fight the enemy too, defeating it faster. But that's what happens in the open world.

will you please stop repeating "but this is how things work now" and instead try to engage with the point being made in this thread? yes, this is how things work now. but the entire point of overland difficulty is we don't want things to work how they do now. do you understand that?

the reason players have been asking for overland difficulty for so many years is because we don't like how things work now.

But players have been asking for years for "more overland difficulty options" and "final story bosses shouldn't just fall over" and "the fights should make us have to pay attention."

You're getting that.

Now all of a sudden, it's "but but but what about those other people who are in my game! They need to go away because I want to solo this whole game!"

World Bosses was not the reason people were desiring harder overland. It was story bosses. And those are instanced. Now, people are complaining about bosses and areas that are not instanced, but you don't get to complain that other people are in public spaces. This is an MMO, which means other people will be around, and they have the right to be around.

If it's so important to people that they get to solo world bosses and public dungeons and things like that, then they can go on PTS in the off-season when nobody is there and solo them to their heart's content. Or, they could realize that they may just have to come back at a less populated time, like people currently do who are going through a story when someone blows past who can't be bothered to have a non-minmaxed character build. The whole "we deserve our own instance" argument from some people really reeks of "I don't want to be around noobs!"

If they had the programming overhead for it, I would support favorably placing players in instances with others who have similar difficulty levels. Popular zones usually have so many instances anyway, so it wouldn't be an issue. But what about zones like Malabal Tor or Shadowfen? I doubt there's more than one instance of those zones on any server at a time since there are very few reasons for people to go there, so the solution is not to fragment the population in those further.

SilverBride wrote: »

flyingparchment wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I believe the complaint is that other players not opting in to difficulty may jump in and fight the enemy too, defeating it faster. But that's what happens in the open world.

will you please stop repeating "but this is how things work now" and instead try to engage with the point being made in this thread? yes, this is how things work now. but the entire point of overland difficulty is we don't want things to work how they do now. do you understand that?

the reason players have been asking for overland difficulty for so many years is because we don't like how things work now.

I get it, but as @tomofhyrule just pointed out, for years players complaints were about Story Bosses being defeated too fast, not about other players interfering with World Boss fights, etc..

I am sorry it is not what some were expecting, but players are getting what they asked for.

EDIT to clarify.

We're not getting what we want and many of us are getting an AWA feeling, as in, we wanted it BUT not the way ZOS implemented it! Many want a vet mode with only other VETS in it. Solves the "Toxic High Levels Nuke Everything" issue that many have. I Modify my gameplay around others to not affect their enjoyment, but should I and others have to?

TBH I want Vet but won't use this system as it only reverses the different damage issues, as some can nuke a boss, mob while someone on a higher difficulty has no enjoyment and neither is a good outcome.

Let's be honest here, outside of towns and events the majority of base game overland zones are dead, Delves and PDs are different as there are things people want in some but not all. It will make no difference to the population that you see, as it's a barren wasteland out there, even in many Chapters/DLC once you get out of the population centers you’re often on your own. Go out and find out.

With separate instances, crafting areas and the like will still look busy as players aren’t going to go to a more difficult instance to craft and shop, are they?

I won’t use this system as I don’t want to be nerfed and it just feels lazy. I’ve got skills and sets, why can’t I use them to more effect without affecting others, or have others affect me?

The system's suggestion as it stands is a lose lose, where as separate instances is a win win, maybe they could even have a “Story Mode” where it’s even easier than normal now, as people have complained before that the end of story bosses are too hard to complete. It’s been requested often on this forum.

PS. I don't care about rewards, not going flail, LA, flail and bbbbeeeeeeaaaaammm and a mob is dead will be the only reward I want.

The best solution would be instanced overland content. All players would have the same difficulty level. This means that in each instance, the more difficult it is, the fewer players there would be. That would be ideal. If a player can't make it on max mode solo, they can still invite a friend to the group, who can then port into the same instance and automatically have the same difficulty level. The fights would thus always correspond to the difficulty level. And there would be no more XP/loot exploits.

A long time ago we got story bosses with great mechanics and fitting difficulty - not just tediously high health (looking as an example to the summerset prologue wrath of crows) - people came to the forums to rage that it was too hard and ZOS nerfed it for them.

As much as I also don't like the way they are implementing this (and won't use it), I feel for the devs because here they are in a "damned if they do/damned if they don't" situation.

I don't understand how scaling difficulty for a single individual by adding enemy NPC hit points or reducing player health inside a MMO will help. When a player can just blister in 3 hits, the NPC you have been working on for over a min or two. To me that just adds frustration and I Forsee added player conflict. This is not a single player game so unless difficulty is regional or uniform then it won't work. Kind of like solving one issue only to create 5 more.
Now with that said, I think you guys are overthinking this:
You(your character) was kidnapped, naked and alone in a land that you are unfamiliar with. You have NO CP , NO attribute points , and NO gear on what so ever. You have to hand to hand a wolf , bear , or bat.. Find Rubidite gear , loot , steal and run for your life! Until you gain enough to add a few points and make your own story of risen to greatness , rescue. or conquest.
This not only adds massive amounts of difficulty to the game , but gives use of that ole trash gear we all sale. And yes people can come along and mess you up from time to time. But in my adventure , they are just random strangers the gods sent to aid me in my quest.

Desiato wrote: »

The current plan for hard mode content is terrible. I say this as someone who wasn't only upset with the removal of vet overland content, but also the original vet difficulty nerf during the summer of 2014.

The "feature" is actually a debuff on the character. No one asked for that! We can basically already do that by sabotaging our stats to weaken our characters.

I want a dangerous area to explore where I need to be sharp and pay attention. I don't want to drink a poison that weakens me among other unweakened players while we play together. The idea of that is repulsive to me.

I don't care that hard mode difficulty instances would be less populated. I would see that as a feature because it would allow for a sort of hm community of like-minded players.

I don't think there needs to be multiple hard mode difficulties. Just one would be enough for me. It would be the restoration of a feature we lost in 2014.

This is the best description of the issue that I have come across so far.

Their feature will be DOA.

I'm still not sure why they don't want to instance players. There are plenty of cases where I'm in a group, and walk into an overland zone instance and half the people disappear due to quest status for that cell/zone whatever.

It's already happening overland, what's the issue with allowing it to happen in limited areas based on challenge level?
Maybe separate instances for delve bosses and public dungeon bosses only if the whole delve/pd isn't an option?
Although I guess this isn't really an option when you have half a dozen challenge levels, not sure what that's about...

Honestly I'm more concerned about the bonus rewards (just now gold and XP, but possibly more in the future).
Just feels like people will milk the system by setting their levels to max challenge mode, then add in an overpowered normal player to power level gold and XP. Am I missing something here?