Rush of Agony and Warden Charm

YandereGirlfriend · February 5

El_Borracho wrote: »

@CatalinaWineMixer2 There is nerfing because too many people complain and the devs cave. For example, Way of Fire, Maarselok, Azureblight, Thurvokun, original Elegance, and Pyrebrand. Nothing was wrong with those sets. None of them were OP. But so many people complained, they got nerfed. Like you, I am against that kind of nerfing.

However, there are sets and skills that can be introduced into the game that have massive flaws that turn into exploits nobody imagined. For example, original Ravager (when combined with Relequen), original Zaan (when combined with Elf Bane), Savage Werewolf, and the original Oakensoul. All of those had massive power advantages to the point that it broke the game. Charm is that right now. These kind of mistakes need to be fixed because its bad for the over health of PVP

Azureblight was insanely overpowered, bugged into Oblivion, and was ruining both game modes before it was rightfully curbed.

katanagirl1 · February 5

@ZOS_Kevin I know you are a really busy guy, but is there any way someone from the combat team could watch the videos posted in this thread and comment on both RoA and Charm? Dark Convergence was nerfed for a similar effect as RoA and Charm being used with this set is an excessively high hurdle for PvP players to overcome. Those of us who enjoy the freedom of PvP builds in Gray Host don’t want to go to Vengeance to avoid this. This meta is driving players away from Gray Host and likely all PvP as well.

El_Borracho · February 5

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@CatalinaWineMixer2 There is nerfing because too many people complain and the devs cave. For example, Way of Fire, Maarselok, Azureblight, Thurvokun, original Elegance, and Pyrebrand. Nothing was wrong with those sets. None of them were OP. But so many people complained, they got nerfed. Like you, I am against that kind of nerfing.

However, there are sets and skills that can be introduced into the game that have massive flaws that turn into exploits nobody imagined. For example, original Ravager (when combined with Relequen), original Zaan (when combined with Elf Bane), Savage Werewolf, and the original Oakensoul. All of those had massive power advantages to the point that it broke the game. Charm is that right now. These kind of mistakes need to be fixed because its bad for the over health of PVP

Azureblight was insanely overpowered, bugged into Oblivion, and was ruining both game modes before it was rightfully curbed.

That's like, your opinion man.

I don't want to relitigate those threads, there were a lot. I liked Azureblight as it was as it was a nice set for breaking ball groups and was a worthwhile set in PVE. We can agree to disagree.

But Azureblight is an excellent example of a set that could have been dealt with by adding an "against monsters" caveat instead of wrecking it for both PVE and PVP. Much like the current level of moaning over Null Acra could be dealt with the same way

SneaK · February 5

Update/PSA:

Figured I’d post in case people didn’t know.

Best in class build for a Jabplar = base class Warden.

Best in class build for Dragonknight = base class Warden

Best in class build for ANY MELEE = base class Warden

TLDR:
BiS everything = Charm

BXR_Lonestar · February 6

SneaK wrote: »

Update/PSA:

Figured I’d post in case people didn’t know.

Best in class build for a Jabplar = base class Warden.

Best in class build for Dragonknight = base class Warden

Best in class build for ANY MELEE = base class Warden

TLDR:
BiS everything = Charm

Yes, pretty much.

Again, charm wasn't a big issue - in U45 when there was no subclassing and builds weren't so ridiculously overpowered, but now, builds are so ridiculously overpowered and because warden skill lines play a key component to those overpowered builds, charm is also being massively exploited and it has ZERO counters.

Charm should not effect you through block. Charm should not be able to effect you the same time as a pull. Charm shouldn't be able to effect you when you are under the effects of OTHER crowd control abilities. And it shouldn't be able to effect you immediately after you break free from a cc and you have CC immunity.

All they need to do is fix these issues and it will be what it was intended to be: a CC for a class that really doesn't have great CC options otherwise.

MincMincMinc · February 6

Charm on its own could be an ultimate, if zos is still married to the idea of keeping it. Just move it somewhere else less used like warden's green balance ult. Fits perfectly there for group mechanics and utility while also being locked behind ult cooldown preventing abuse.

Put it this way, the closest thing we have to charm is timestop which has a ridiculously easy telegraph that cant get masked on the floor. Timestop also costs nearly twice what healing soul major vitality +charm costs. Yet timestop doesnt do the strongest heal+effect in the game. Not to mention timestop doesnt bug out to the same degree.

Charm just shouldnt be a short cooldown tacked on effect to already strong low cost skills like major vitality healing soul.

Major_Mangle · February 6

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Charm on its own could be an ultimate, if zos is still married to the idea of keeping it. Just move it somewhere else less used like warden's green balance ult. Fits perfectly there for group mechanics and utility while also being locked behind ult cooldown preventing abuse.

Put it this way, the closest thing we have to it is timestop which has a ridiculously easy telegraph that cant get masked on the floor. Timestop also costs nearly twice what healing soul major vitality +charm costs. Yet timestop doesnt do the strongest heal+effect in the game. Not to mention timestop doesnt bug out to the same degree.

Charm just shouldnt be a short cooldown tacked on effect to already strong skills like major vitality healing soul.

I said it earlier in the thread, but having the charm connected to activating a warden ultimate (the "charm getting stuck on terrain" shenanigans still need to be fixed) would make the skill a lot more balanced. Having strong AoE "denial" skills is fine, but not at the frequency it can currently be used at.

MincMincMinc · February 6

Major_Mangle wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Charm on its own could be an ultimate, if zos is still married to the idea of keeping it. Just move it somewhere else less used like warden's green balance ult. Fits perfectly there for group mechanics and utility while also being locked behind ult cooldown preventing abuse.

Put it this way, the closest thing we have to it is timestop which has a ridiculously easy telegraph that cant get masked on the floor. Timestop also costs nearly twice what healing soul major vitality +charm costs. Yet timestop doesnt do the strongest heal+effect in the game. Not to mention timestop doesnt bug out to the same degree.

Charm just shouldnt be a short cooldown tacked on effect to already strong skills like major vitality healing soul.

I said it earlier in the thread, but having the charm connected to activating a warden ultimate (the "charm getting stuck on terrain" shenanigans still need to be fixed) would make the skill a lot more balanced. Having strong AoE "denial" skills is fine, but not at the frequency it can currently be used at.

Exactly, having strong unique stuff is fine, so long as it is tensioned properly. The cost must be worth the benefit.

Same issue goes for the pull sets. RoA is simply too short cooldown for what it offers. Ontop of being poorly designed for combat telegraph clarity for how strong it is. Why not make Nova have the Dark convergence effect? Or have consuming darkness do RoA. IDK so many better ways to go about it.

YandereGirlfriend · February 6

I think that the future of this Script is to get the DK Leap-style split functionality, where it, say, Snares players but Charms NPCs.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Charm on its own could be an ultimate, if zos is still married to the idea of keeping it. Just move it somewhere else less used like warden's green balance ult. Fits perfectly there for group mechanics and utility while also being locked behind ult cooldown preventing abuse.

Put it this way, the closest thing we have to it is timestop which has a ridiculously easy telegraph that cant get masked on the floor. Timestop also costs nearly twice what healing soul major vitality +charm costs. Yet timestop doesnt do the strongest heal+effect in the game. Not to mention timestop doesnt bug out to the same degree.

Charm just shouldnt be a short cooldown tacked on effect to already strong skills like major vitality healing soul.

I said it earlier in the thread, but having the charm connected to activating a warden ultimate (the "charm getting stuck on terrain" shenanigans still need to be fixed) would make the skill a lot more balanced. Having strong AoE "denial" skills is fine, but not at the frequency it can currently be used at.

Exactly, having strong unique stuff is fine, so long as it is tensioned properly. The cost must be worth the benefit.

Same issue goes for the pull sets. RoA is simply too short cooldown for what it offers. Ontop of being poorly designed for combat telegraph clarity for how strong it is. Why not make Nova have the Dark convergence effect? Or have consuming darkness do RoA. IDK so many better ways to go about it.

Consuming Darkness would be so based if instead of the Rush chains it shot out shadow tendrils to yoink players in, the darkness truly consuming them.

MincMincMinc · February 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think that the future of this Script is to get the DK Leap-style split functionality, where it, say, Snares players but Charms NPCs.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Charm on its own could be an ultimate, if zos is still married to the idea of keeping it. Just move it somewhere else less used like warden's green balance ult. Fits perfectly there for group mechanics and utility while also being locked behind ult cooldown preventing abuse.

Put it this way, the closest thing we have to it is timestop which has a ridiculously easy telegraph that cant get masked on the floor. Timestop also costs nearly twice what healing soul major vitality +charm costs. Yet timestop doesnt do the strongest heal+effect in the game. Not to mention timestop doesnt bug out to the same degree.

Charm just shouldnt be a short cooldown tacked on effect to already strong skills like major vitality healing soul.

I said it earlier in the thread, but having the charm connected to activating a warden ultimate (the "charm getting stuck on terrain" shenanigans still need to be fixed) would make the skill a lot more balanced. Having strong AoE "denial" skills is fine, but not at the frequency it can currently be used at.

Exactly, having strong unique stuff is fine, so long as it is tensioned properly. The cost must be worth the benefit.

Same issue goes for the pull sets. RoA is simply too short cooldown for what it offers. Ontop of being poorly designed for combat telegraph clarity for how strong it is. Why not make Nova have the Dark convergence effect? Or have consuming darkness do RoA. IDK so many better ways to go about it.

Consuming Darkness would be so based if instead of the Rush chains it shot out shadow tendrils to yoink players in, the darkness truly consuming them.

Doing the split snare players, charm NPCs is a quick simple solution that could remain.

My only problem with the consuming is that NB already has soul tether which would kinda be the same thing thematically.

I find it kinda disappointing that most ults these days are eclipsed by how absurd skills are these days. Just look at something like merciless resolve compared to take flight. Or look at something like deep fissure and try to explain how it couldnt be an ultimate. Even proc set effects like RoA are seemingly stronger than most ultimates.

ercknn · February 7

Highest AP earners; Emperors on all GH factions run this setup, says enough about how broken it is.
That or you’re a healer getting AP from healing bombers after cheese ROA set-up.

I still remember the no crit through sorc shield days, and Selene bear insta gank from nb stealth.
I remember ult dumping destro ulti (morph that follows you) for insane broken bombs; kills with VD.
I remember plaguebreak on NPCs to proc players in cyro keeps; resources.

Add warden charm ROA to the list.

Thumbless_Bot · February 7

ercknn wrote: »

Highest AP earners; Emperors on all GH factions run this setup, says enough about how broken it is.
That or you’re a healer getting AP from healing bombers after cheese ROA set-up.

I still remember the no crit through sorc shield days, and Selene bear insta gank from nb stealth.
I remember ult dumping destro ulti (morph that follows you) for insane broken bombs; kills with VD.
I remember plaguebreak on NPCs to proc players in cyro keeps; resources.

Add warden charm ROA to the list.

Zos should get metrics on kda with roa... granted many, MANY people do not know when to block, or maybe even how... idk, but this set lokely has the highest kda in the game by a country mile. That speaks volumes about imbalance even though that is mitigated a bit by l2p issues.

BardokRedSnow · February 7

Rush of agony is fine, the problem isnt the set its the players that dont know how to block and get you VD'd if you're stacking. In which case if you do stack, and sometimes thats unavoidable, you gotta block/heal which many players don't even know you can do.

You can block heal and block cast, both will help you survive. Sometimes I get caught by RoA playing sloppy sure but the majority of my deaths with the set are because light attack low health low crit resistance low physical/spell resistance players are all over me trying to take my kill with their all dps builds then blow up.

DC is especially allergic to blocking on pcna, they have such an anti tanky culture that building and playing defensively at all is frowned upon and shamed, and RoA deaths en masse are the result.

Charm needs to go tho yea, its ridiculously op and broken, ignoring the wall collision bug it gets people killed simply because of how janky and weird the CC is. It should be brought in line with other CCs.

BardokRedSnow · February 7

The clip OP showed isn't even that extreme of a yoink, worse is when you get pulled across the battlefield seemingly because of latency desyncs and you think you got out of harm's way. Which is why block is your friend.

I do agree these pull sets are annoying though. The game's not very fun when you're getting yanked around and charmed, taking control out of your hands every couple of seconds in a fight when you're melee especially. I dont like having to spend so much time in block but its pretty much necessary or you die and get everyone else killed too. Is what it is.

RoA is annoying but so are a lot of things. Charm is just downright garbage.

Danse_Mayhem · February 7

It’s legit wild, and very telling for the ones who stick up for ROA/Charm after all this time of its impact on PvP, in a bad way.

Both completely overloaded and unnecessary mechanics within PvP that just make it less fun for everyone involved. Almost all big group v group fights are decided by this same combo, and it’s usually just spammed every 8 seconds until one side misses a block. It’s boring gameplay.

Outside of group v group, you have what we see here in the clip, where multiple ROA procs land on a player and there is ZERO counter play.

Streak; Sure If you’re already on that bar and you have room ahead, this is the only way.

Roll; Nope, you’re getting pulled back in.

Block; Sure you stand there blocking whilst 2 ROA procs explode right after along with VD procs from others and whatever ultimates went down on the pull? Then you just get charmed anyway and it all lands full damage. This is not a counter.

I’m actually sick of reading people say “it doesn’t pull me very often so it’s fine.”
If you only play solo or avoid group fights like the plague then respectfully, bow out of this topic because ESO PvP is a numbers game to an extent, and if the only counter to a broken set / script is to just avoid keep away from the action then something clearly isn’t right. This isn’t even particularly in defence of zerging or grouping in general, it’s that as a player, even with perfect reflexes and reaction time, you can get screwed over by even just one friendly faction player being somewhat near you missing a block.

It’s a bad set/script and needs removing.

katanagirl1 · February 7

So why do you guys think that ZOS continues to ignore these threads in favor of ones like the shield bash one? Personally I have rarely encountered any of those skills on my death recap, it seems not many players I see and using s&b skills but are using 2h and gap closers instead with the RoA and Charm setup. I can’t even say that Templar javelin is a problem for me much. Yeah I’ve been javelined off the top of keeps and outposts before and fell to my death, but getting hit with it on the ground is the same break free problem I have with just about every other skill like that.

SneaK · February 7

Again, RoA is pretty weak on its own, CHARM IS THE PROBLEM.

Danse_Mayhem · February 7

katanagirl1 wrote: »

So why do you guys think that ZOS continues to ignore these threads in favor of ones like the shield bash one? Personally I have rarely encountered any of those skills on my death recap, it seems not many players I see and using s&b skills but are using 2h and gap closers instead with the RoA and Charm setup. I can’t even say that Templar javelin is a problem for me much. Yeah I’ve been javelined off the top of keeps and outposts before and fell to my death, but getting hit with it on the ground is the same break free problem I have with just about every other skill like that.

Genuinely no idea mate. I’ve seen so many threads complaining about ROA / Charm for ages now and somehow it’s just ignored. I can only assume the devs either just don’t play PvP or are ball groupers with the same “I block tapped then streaked with lightning fast reflexes and perfect connection whilst my faction got nuked so it’s a skull issue” attitude.

Honestly though, as a day 1 player I have to say that release version of dark convergence was the most busted thing in eso history, and that took its sweet time getting adjusted, but not as long as this. We just need to keep at it, unfortunately.

SneaK · February 7

They posted this in the PTS:

Rush of Agony Set & Warden Charm Script [Bug & Feedback]: We have seen your bug reports, feedback, and general concerns about the Rush of Agony item set and Warden Charm script. While these are not explicitly related to this PTS cycle and Update 49, we wanted to acknowledge that we do see your posts about these and are investigating the CC-related issues you’ve raised in forum discussion threads like this and this. With the upcoming Warden class refresh (our next one), we will be looking at every facet of the class including the Warden Charm script. While we are not making any changes to the Rush of Agony for Update 49, we are investigating the reported CC-related issues of getting pulled through environmental fixtures and getting stuck in terrain related to the item set and Warden Charm script (and all Charm effects.) (Related post.)

YandereGirlfriend · February 7

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

So why do you guys think that ZOS continues to ignore these threads in favor of ones like the shield bash one? Personally I have rarely encountered any of those skills on my death recap, it seems not many players I see and using s&b skills but are using 2h and gap closers instead with the RoA and Charm setup. I can’t even say that Templar javelin is a problem for me much. Yeah I’ve been javelined off the top of keeps and outposts before and fell to my death, but getting hit with it on the ground is the same break free problem I have with just about every other skill like that.

Genuinely no idea mate. I’ve seen so many threads complaining about ROA / Charm for ages now and somehow it’s just ignored. I can only assume the devs either just don’t play PvP or are ball groupers with the same “I block tapped then streaked with lightning fast reflexes and perfect connection whilst my faction got nuked so it’s a skull issue” attitude.

Honestly though, as a day 1 player I have to say that release version of dark convergence was the most busted thing in eso history, and that took its sweet time getting adjusted, but not as long as this. We just need to keep at it, unfortunately.

I am all for deleting garbage Charm, making Rush apply CC immunity, and yeeting Negate obscuring the DCON animation.

But seriously this set IS a skill issue for most players who complain about it. If it's combo'd with Charm, then okay, you are probably hosed (which says more about Charm than it does about Rush); but Rush on its own is extremely easy to avoid if you are an experienced player who knows... basically just how to use block properly.

Reality is that most players in Cyro... do not know how to use Block properly and so are easy fodder for it. It just is what it is. This is like classic skill gap material.

Ballgroupers know how to deal with the set because they are subjected to it every 10 seconds for like hours at a time in group vs. group fights. That provides A LOT of reps and practice to "git gud" at overcoming it. But the point is the same - most of them got good. They earned that perspective. Hence those comments.

katanagirl1 · 12:39AM

SneaK wrote: »

They posted this in the PTS:

Rush of Agony Set & Warden Charm Script [Bug & Feedback]: We have seen your bug reports, feedback, and general concerns about the Rush of Agony item set and Warden Charm script. While these are not explicitly related to this PTS cycle and Update 49, we wanted to acknowledge that we do see your posts about these and are investigating the CC-related issues you’ve raised in forum discussion threads like this and this. With the upcoming Warden class refresh (our next one), we will be looking at every facet of the class including the Warden Charm script. While we are not making any changes to the Rush of Agony for Update 49, we are investigating the reported CC-related issues of getting pulled through environmental fixtures and getting stuck in terrain related to the item set and Warden Charm script (and all Charm effects.) (Related post.)

Thanks for reposting this, I am on console so I don’t go to the PTS section. It’s disheartening to be ignored though, and them not respond to this thread or even watch the videos.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

So why do you guys think that ZOS continues to ignore these threads in favor of ones like the shield bash one? Personally I have rarely encountered any of those skills on my death recap, it seems not many players I see and using s&b skills but are using 2h and gap closers instead with the RoA and Charm setup. I can’t even say that Templar javelin is a problem for me much. Yeah I’ve been javelined off the top of keeps and outposts before and fell to my death, but getting hit with it on the ground is the same break free problem I have with just about every other skill like that.

Genuinely no idea mate. I’ve seen so many threads complaining about ROA / Charm for ages now and somehow it’s just ignored. I can only assume the devs either just don’t play PvP or are ball groupers with the same “I block tapped then streaked with lightning fast reflexes and perfect connection whilst my faction got nuked so it’s a skull issue” attitude.

Honestly though, as a day 1 player I have to say that release version of dark convergence was the most busted thing in eso history, and that took its sweet time getting adjusted, but not as long as this. We just need to keep at it, unfortunately.

I am all for deleting garbage Charm, making Rush apply CC immunity, and yeeting Negate obscuring the DCON animation.

But seriously this set IS a skill issue for most players who complain about it. If it's combo'd with Charm, then okay, you are probably hosed (which says more about Charm than it does about Rush); but Rush on its own is extremely easy to avoid if you are an experienced player who knows... basically just how to use block properly.

Reality is that most players in Cyro... do not know how to use Block properly and so are easy fodder for it. It just is what it is. This is like classic skill gap material.

Ballgroupers know how to deal with the set because they are subjected to it every 10 seconds for like hours at a time in group vs. group fights. That provides A LOT of reps and practice to "git gud" at overcoming it. But the point is the same - most of them got good. They earned that perspective. Hence those comments.

Ballgroups can rely on the massive heals they have to withstand just about anything, including five rounds of lancer fire from multiple lancers. That’s not getting good.

nightbringer1993 · 8:15AM

Ever since charm was introduced on PTS nearly two years ago for the scribing patch, it has been an issue. But when it went live, things just got worst!

We saw a slow drop in PvP population, and the number of troll exploiters went up. There was also the other OP class of the moment, which was sorcerer, that didn’t take long to be nerfed, but the northern tempest charm burst builds that came out of the warden class was just absurd.

Then! The worst thing that happened to the game. Subclassing! This made the warden population go even higher , and the number of people getting stuck in walls or getting wrecked in few seconds went up with the charm assassin combos that happened.

With all of the problems that happened with charm, I don’t understand why devs took nearly two years to respond to the issue despite the numerous threads on forums and videos and screenshots that showed how problematic this effect is.

Once again, the clear action is to remove charm right now, maybe keep the slow down aoe for now. But charm needs to go. This charm plague has destroyed PvP.

Reminder that there was the arcanist charm that was introduced before the warden's one, but because arcanist was not much present in PvP, and that usualy the other morph of the skill where it was a stun war more used, then the problem was not as widely mentioned, but was still there. And that charm was a single target skill, not a mass aoe.

spartaxoxo · 8:18AM

katanagirl1 wrote: »

So why do you guys think that ZOS continues to ignore these threads in favor of ones like the shield bash one? Personally I have rarely encountered any of those skills on my death recap, it seems not many players I see and using s&b skills but are using 2h and gap closers instead with the RoA and Charm setup. I can’t even say that Templar javelin is a problem for me much. Yeah I’ve been javelined off the top of keeps and outposts before and fell to my death, but getting hit with it on the ground is the same break free problem I have with just about every other skill like that.

One is a balance issue. The other is a serious bug. Not only is that different teams but if they're like other games that I've played serious bugs get more priority.

katanagirl1 · 7:15PM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

So why do you guys think that ZOS continues to ignore these threads in favor of ones like the shield bash one? Personally I have rarely encountered any of those skills on my death recap, it seems not many players I see and using s&b skills but are using 2h and gap closers instead with the RoA and Charm setup. I can’t even say that Templar javelin is a problem for me much. Yeah I’ve been javelined off the top of keeps and outposts before and fell to my death, but getting hit with it on the ground is the same break free problem I have with just about every other skill like that.

One is a balance issue. The other is a serious bug. Not only is that different teams but if they're like other games that I've played serious bugs get more priority.

Maybe, but the bug is rare and the balance issue is in every single fight you are ever in. It’s in every death recap. The sorc thing was vastly overblown and got immediate attention for whatever reason. The Azureblight thing was overblown, I PvP in Cyrodiil for a couple of hours every day and have never, ever seen that on my recap. People complain about ganking nightblades but they are extremely rare, the worse thing is the auto-targeting bow ulti but that’s not limited to nightblades. Really, some of the squeaky wheels around here aren’t necessarily the ones that should be getting greased. I could go on, complaints about cloak when you can slot detect potions or revealing flare, I really wish these could be addressed by actual impact to the game rather than what really gets people mad.

EDIT: typo