Stuns and gapclosers

Mrtoobyy · February 5

They should all have increased cost. They should be EXPENSIVE.
I say this as a main templar who spams javelin so...

For the PVP flow of the game one shouldn't be able to spam UNBLOCKABLE stuns or gapclosers such as streak.

BXR_Lonestar · February 5

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

They should all have increased cost. They should be EXPENSIVE.
I say this as a main templar who spams javelin so...

For the PVP flow of the game one shouldn't be able to spam UNBLOCKABLE stuns or gapclosers such as streak.

You need unblockable crowd control skills such as streak and javeline. You don't want to try to kill a block tank WITHOUT those skills because block tanks would then be totally unkillable without a way to force them to drop block. So these skills are a hard counter for block tanks.

What needs to happen though, is that there needs to be some penalty for spamming these.

IMO, I don't really see javeline being an issue because I don't see people spamming it, and even though it is unblockable, as far as I am aware, it still obeys typical crowd control immunity rules.

Steak, however, is a big problem IMO. It is just absolute crap that someone can streak you, stun you, and then streak away and evade damage because you cannot target lock. I would like to see this happen with streak-

Morphs changed to an offensive and defensive morphs. OFFENSIVE morph: short range streak (7 meters) with an unblockable stun, with a cost of 50% of your max resource pool OR streaking more than once within 10 seconds leaves you vulnerable to damage and you take 75% more damage from all sources. DEFENSIVE morph: streak loses its stun, but it has a much longer range and you gain a small damage shield when you streak. Streaking more than once within 10 seconds causes YOU to do 75% less damage for 6 seconds.

This would force people to choose HOW they want to use this skill and make sure they use it judiciously, because spamming the skill comes with severe/harsh penalties.

El_Borracho · February 5

Streak is a problem in Cyrodiil? First I've heard of it....

Yeah, this has been a problem for a while now. Was much worse when the max mag sorc meta was omnipresent last year. They never really changed it. Instead, they added in the Warden charm which lured a lot of the sorc enthusiasts away. Now subclassing has brought it back

Most gap closers have a high cost. Streak is the outlier. It allegedly has a ramping cost, but if you have enough mag and with the right setup, the cost is irrelevant.

YandereGirlfriend · February 5

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

They should all have increased cost. They should be EXPENSIVE.
I say this as a main templar who spams javelin so...

For the PVP flow of the game one shouldn't be able to spam UNBLOCKABLE stuns or gapclosers such as streak.

You need unblockable crowd control skills such as streak and javeline. You don't want to try to kill a block tank WITHOUT those skills because block tanks would then be totally unkillable without a way to force them to drop block. So these skills are a hard counter for block tanks.

What needs to happen though, is that there needs to be some penalty for spamming these.

IMO, I don't really see javeline being an issue because I don't see people spamming it, and even though it is unblockable, as far as I am aware, it still obeys typical crowd control immunity rules.

Steak, however, is a big problem IMO. It is just absolute crap that someone can streak you, stun you, and then streak away and evade damage because you cannot target lock. I would like to see this happen with streak-

Morphs changed to an offensive and defensive morphs. OFFENSIVE morph: short range streak (7 meters) with an unblockable stun, with a cost of 50% of your max resource pool OR streaking more than once within 10 seconds leaves you vulnerable to damage and you take 75% more damage from all sources. DEFENSIVE morph: streak loses its stun, but it has a much longer range and you gain a small damage shield when you streak. Streaking more than once within 10 seconds causes YOU to do 75% less damage for 6 seconds.

This would force people to choose HOW they want to use this skill and make sure they use it judiciously, because spamming the skill comes with severe/harsh penalties.

People definitely spam Javelin.

Similar phenomenon to people that spam the Shield and Destro Scribe, and, before them, Bombard spam.

There's a certain type of PvP player who just locks-on to these abilities and sees them as the solution to every problem.

There definitely should be a ramping cost applied to every CC action in the game to prevent mindless spam of this nature.

Tommy_The_Gun · February 5

I think that the issue lays rather in how easy it is to build for max movement speed with combination of terrain / walls cover & how the game actually can't handle it. In order not just to stop some one but rather start fighting them (let alone beat) you need to spam CCs & hope they don't spam CC immunity or wear snow treaders. Tbh it all got out of hand really...

YandereGirlfriend · February 5

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think that the issue lays rather in how easy it is to build for max movement speed with combination of terrain / walls cover & how the game actually can't handle it. In order not just to stop some one but rather start fighting them (let alone beat) you need to spam CCs & hope they don't spam CC immunity or wear snow treaders. Tbh it all got out of hand really...

People have been mindlessly spamming CC since way before Snow Treaders or Swift were ever a thing, though. It's just something that is in the psychograph of a certain number of players.

Reverb · February 5

Streak already has ramping cost.

Is your problem with people using gap closers to disengage from fights, or people using it offensively?

Mrtoobyy · February 5

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think that the issue lays rather in how easy it is to build for max movement speed with combination of terrain / walls cover & how the game actually can't handle it. In order not just to stop some one but rather start fighting them (let alone beat) you need to spam CCs & hope they don't spam CC immunity or wear snow treaders. Tbh it all got out of hand really...

I am really curious to what ZOS brings to the game this year but yeah, things have really gotten out of control.
The game is such a mess in some aspects. I wonder what the hell they have been doing over there these previous years.....

Ratzkifal · February 5

Streak has a ramping cost. Spamming it already does drain you of all your magicka. You can also go with all swift jewelry and major expedition and just keep up with them. It's not that hard. The bigger issue is that if the Sorc is also using Dark Exchange, they can just regain all that magicka, which at least nowadays means they can't be running both Assassination and Animal Companions with it.
So with the upcoming Sorc rework in mind, those two skills should never be put into the same skill line unless it offers nothing useful (for PvP) otherwise perhaps.

I'd be willing to accept if the stun on Streak got removed if it was put back on Crystal frag procs and the proc became unblockable. I completely understand that the unblockable AOE stun that can proc certain sets due to being a gapcloser is obnoxious, but when looking at Javelin, Leap being funny, Fossilize, charm and Rush of Agony, Streak doesn't actually feel that out of place anymore.

Also, Toppling Charge is a gapcloser and stun as well, so if you phrase your criticism of Streak this way, everything you say will be used against you and I'd rather not Templar getting nerfed because you want to nerf Sorcs.

Gabriel_H · February 6

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Steak, however, is a big problem IMO. It is just absolute crap that someone can streak you, stun you, and then streak away and evade damage because you cannot target lock. I would like to see this happen with streak-

Streak is an escape skill rather than a gap closer. The counter to such things are pulls. The problem is "Pull -> Streak -> Pull" fails due to Pull applying CC immunity. Streak should remove CC immunity at least in PvP if it's going to keep what is a spammable stun.

BXR_Lonestar · February 6

Gabriel_H wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Steak, however, is a big problem IMO. It is just absolute crap that someone can streak you, stun you, and then streak away and evade damage because you cannot target lock. I would like to see this happen with streak-

Streak is an escape skill rather than a gap closer. The counter to such things are pulls. The problem is "Pull -> Streak -> Pull" fails due to Pull applying CC immunity. Streak should remove CC immunity at least in PvP if it's going to keep what is a spammable stun.

I'd rather see it simply render the player more fragile and vulnerable to damage for a certain period after you have overcasted the skill (more than x amount of times in a given interval) so that if you have a ranged attack they''ll be easier to kill.

I see streak first as a mobility skill and not a gap closer or primarily a cc/stun. Mobility is a way to avoid damage in this game. If you want to avoid damage, you should be able to build for tankiness OR speed but not both, and so I think it makes sense for streak users to be made more vulnerable with repeated casts. It would also solve my irritation of people engaging with you, and when they can't beat you in a straight up fight they just streak away, spamming it multiple times to open up a gap such that you can never close it. Then when you go to mount up to go to a different objective, they backpick you anyways just to keep you in combat and mess with you.

MincMincMinc · February 6

The other problem is that the counter to streak is gap closers, but people are so fast and have easy snare immunities that most people these days dont even slot gap closers. Two equivalent players one casting streak and one chasing with a gap closer, the gap closer player should have no issue chasing down someone with ramping costs traveling less distance.

That being said, I think streak and BoL could be rebalanced easily. With todays sustain the 33% ramping is too low, so just make it 50% At the same time make streak only do damage/stun at the final location. BoL would be the opposite where it stuns at the starting location, but gives you a shield based on the enemies stunned or just does the absorb. This way you have to choose whether you want an engagement skill shot stun or an escape tool. Whereas on live streak is both because it stuns at start, while traveling, and at the final location in a large area.