A certain individual EP player cheating in PCEU GH

Northwold · February 4

Slight tangent but is it not possible to ban people based on their mac address so they cannot use the same machine on a different account to circumvent bans?

emilyhyoyeon · February 4

There is no reality where this isn't against TOS so I'm kind of baffled how Support is responding multiple times that this is fair game. How is Support saying that, like how does that happen?

edit: My ticket for this was just updated to let me know that this DID break TOS and action was taken. Thank you

Vulkunne · February 4

Why not treat it like an opportunity and open up the keep so everyone else can use the roof as well? I mean, all he did was take the escalator and it seems like everyone is in a frenzy. I've seen far worse exploits, things done by groups using RoA, Charmed and so forth, for years, and nothing's been done.

But this guy's only mistake was taking the escalator and rising to the top? I mean, shouldn't we all be doing that? How many are mad because he thought of this when people have been playing for years and were never as creative? I'm not saying to break TOS but I think this should be a new feature and I think everyone needs to relax. Because this is nothing compared to what others have gotten away with for years.

Don't put all your anger on one person because others (like the ball groups) have again, been treated nice, eating well and have gotten by with their behavior for many years... and no adjustment, no fix and still no one cares. People are leaving Cyrodiil because of them not because of this guy.

But God forbid some creative EP person uses Siege from a roof? C'mon man. I mean really?!?? Where's the outrage over some of the other exploitive stuff that's been going on?

opethmaniac · February 4

Vulkunne wrote: »

But God forbid some creative EP person uses Siege from a roof? C'mon man. I mean really?!?? Where's the outrage over some of the other exploitive stuff that's been going on?

Using ROA/Charm and running in a ball in not cheating. Lame and cringe, but not cheating.

"Using an escalator" to get on the roof IS cheating, and the anger about this is justified.

ZOS_Kevin · February 4

Just wanted to follow up here before the end of the day. Customer service is actively reviewing the tickets now and doing a full investigation here. I should know more in the morning as to a final resolution here. But wanted to make sure there was an update provided before the end of the day. If you see the reported behavior again in-game, please keep a record of it. Thanks again for reporting this issue to us. Looking to get this resolved as soon as possible.

ZOS_Kevin · February 4

Actually, just got an update. Looks like the user and their various accounts have been banned. The team is looking into how the user was able to get to the top of the keep so that we can get that fixed as well. But they should not be an issue going forward. If you see anyone else replicating that behavior, please put in a new ticket and we can address it. Thanks again to everyone who submitted a ticket about this. They were helpful for the customer service investigation.

Mall0ry · February 4

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Looks like the user and their various accounts have been banned.

Thank you for the update.

Vulkunne · February 4

opethmaniac wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

But God forbid some creative EP person uses Siege from a roof? C'mon man. I mean really?!?? Where's the outrage over some of the other exploitive stuff that's been going on?

Using ROA/Charm and running in a ball in not cheating. Lame and cringe, but not cheating.

"Using an escalator" to get on the roof IS cheating, and the anger about this is justified.

It's interesting you say anger. Because while not so much these days, at one point I used to PvP in Cyrodiil nightly. But over time yeah, I have noticed how both Cyrodiil gameplay and many of the ones there have gone from like a fun & care-free attitude to being so serious and angry.

These days if I go to Cyrodiil at all it's just to say 'hey' or grab what I need... I don't stay. It's not worth staying for. PvE and Trials, so forth is still pretty good with this game. But PvP is in a bad state. And I'm not trying to excuse anyone for breaking TOS, but I'm just saying that everyone there seems to get so angry over such little things its just not worth dealing with.

We should be having fun in PvP, not working so hard to mass report and catch others in liabilities, though its true we are all responsible for what we say and do in game so. But until its worth the risk going back to Cyrodiil then I'll pass on that.

imPDA · February 5

@ZOS_Kevin It has been mentioned multiple times here: it would help if you could provide details about what support was missing. According to many people here, they reported issues, but support found nothing. This would have been resolved long ago if the first reports had been reviewed properly.

Would it help to get the precise time of the incident? Is video mandatory? Was the character name a barrier? Should I report the exact name and ID (they often contain characters I don’t have on a regular keyboard)? A better description? It was obvious to me that the situation in the first screenshot in the thread was abnormal, but it seems not for support.

Turtle_Bot · February 5

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Actually, just got an update. Looks like the user and their various accounts have been banned. The team is looking into how the user was able to get to the top of the keep so that we can get that fixed as well. But they should not be an issue going forward. If you see anyone else replicating that behavior, please put in a new ticket and we can address it. Thanks again to everyone who submitted a ticket about this. They were helpful for the customer service investigation.

Glad to hear this has been dealt with (across all their accounts) and further ways are being looked into to prevent it from happening again.

I had submitted a ticket about this as well (ticket number [260203-001053]) if ZOS did need/want any further references/proof for a harsher ban/penalty such as a permanent mac address ban or something for that particular user (if that is possible to do).

Having dealt with support before, I did make sure to get ahead of the automated response and included multiple screenshots in my reply to the automated response email and was happy to see a notification today that action had been taken.

@ZOS_Kevin it might also help (if possible) to have a GM online in Cyrodiil for a while checking in at random times to keep tabs on things like call outs in zone chat etc. just in case that person tries to circumvent their bans.

@imPDA I've found that it's always important to include the following in reports to help ZOS as much as possible with their investigations into these sorts of things:

- Time (if using your own time, be sure to make note of that/which timezone you are in so ZOS can convert it to the servers timezone)
- Date
- Server/region (PC/Console, NA/EU)
- Zone instance (Cyrodiil, IC, PvE zone, etc.)
- Location of incident (nearby landmarks/keeps, etc.)
- Description of what happened
- Screenshots/Video (typically add these in a reply email to the auto-response email you get from ZOS regarding the ticket)
- Notes about character/@ names such as if specific non-standard letters are used, etc.

It's kind of hard to get all of the info within the limited report character text box (an issue I've raised in the past regarding this and general feedback/bug reporting in game), but anything you can't fit in that text box, definitely include in the reply email to the automated response you get from support for that ticket.

LittleLionLeone · February 5

Northwold wrote: »

Slight tangent but is it not possible to ban people based on their mac address so they cannot use the same machine on a different account to circumvent bans?

You can easily spoof your mac address, same with HWD and IPs. If people stoop low enough to cheat like this, then they'll find ways to come back.

Rohamad_Ali · February 5

The Tamriel Justice system strikes again.

mocap · February 5

The Tamriel Snitch system strikes again. Just kidding.

Vitgar · February 5

Karlsson flew away, but promised to return

opethmaniac · February 5

Vulkunne wrote: »

opethmaniac wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

But God forbid some creative EP person uses Siege from a roof? C'mon man. I mean really?!?? Where's the outrage over some of the other exploitive stuff that's been going on?

Using ROA/Charm and running in a ball in not cheating. Lame and cringe, but not cheating.

"Using an escalator" to get on the roof IS cheating, and the anger about this is justified.

It's interesting you say anger. Because while not so much these days, at one point I used to PvP in Cyrodiil nightly. But over time yeah, I have noticed how both Cyrodiil gameplay and many of the ones there have gone from like a fun & care-free attitude to being so serious and angry.

These days if I goto Cyrodiil at all it's just to say 'hey' or grab what I need... I don't stay. Its not worth staying for. PvE and Trials, so forth is still pretty good with this game. But PvP is in a bad state. And I'm not trying to excuse anyone for breaking TOS, but I'm just saying that everyone there seems to get so angry over such little things its just not worth dealing with.

We should be having fun in PvP, not working so hard to mass report and catch others in liabilities, though its true we are all responsible for what we say and do in game so. But until its worth the risk going back to Cyrodiil then I'll pass on that.

I agree with you that the player experience has become increasingly worse and more frustrating over time; I feel exactly the same way. Game systems are being exploited by the "immortal PvP gods" and the former variety and lightheartedness are gone.

There has been a lot of debate about this, and there are numerous threads on the topic (e.g., Warden Charm), which makes the consistent radio silence from ZOS all the more frustrating.

Nevertheless, cheaters shouldn't be downplayed, and the points mentioned above aren't the focus of this thread. Therefore, I'm glad that ZOS reacted quickly.

Vulkunne · February 5

opethmaniac wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

opethmaniac wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

But God forbid some creative EP person uses Siege from a roof? C'mon man. I mean really?!?? Where's the outrage over some of the other exploitive stuff that's been going on?

Using ROA/Charm and running in a ball in not cheating. Lame and cringe, but not cheating.

"Using an escalator" to get on the roof IS cheating, and the anger about this is justified.

It's interesting you say anger. Because while not so much these days, at one point I used to PvP in Cyrodiil nightly. But over time yeah, I have noticed how both Cyrodiil gameplay and many of the ones there have gone from like a fun & care-free attitude to being so serious and angry.

These days if I goto Cyrodiil at all it's just to say 'hey' or grab what I need... I don't stay. Its not worth staying for. PvE and Trials, so forth is still pretty good with this game. But PvP is in a bad state. And I'm not trying to excuse anyone for breaking TOS, but I'm just saying that everyone there seems to get so angry over such little things its just not worth dealing with.

We should be having fun in PvP, not working so hard to mass report and catch others in liabilities, though its true we are all responsible for what we say and do in game so. But until its worth the risk going back to Cyrodiil then I'll pass on that.

I agree with you that the player experience has become increasingly worse and more frustrating over time; I feel exactly the same way. Game systems are being exploited by the "immortal PvP gods" and the former variety and lightheartedness are gone.

There has been a lot of debate about this, and there are numerous threads on the topic (e.g., Warden Charm), which makes the consistent radio silence from ZOS all the more frustrating.

Nevertheless, cheaters shouldn't be downplayed, and the points mentioned above aren't the focus of this thread. Therefore, I'm glad that ZOS reacted quickly.

If that be the case, then it really wouldn't hurt to have a GM on duty in Cyrodiil (especially during Prime Time), to help deal with things like this. They could even potentially catch incidents of this nature early on and hand out warnings or take corrective action sooner rather than later and it wouldn't necessarily have reached this point on the forums.

But as for Cyrodiil itself, it gets kind of boring too. Just same old, same old hill after hill. Opening the roof/balcony adds a new dimension to keep fighting with a view. Could be interesting, cause over time it's become kind of boring in there. Imagine a battle escalating between two sweats up top and the fight ending with one person getting magnum'd off the balcony.

To me, that sounds a heck of alot more interesting than one ball group ult trapping the same 10 to 15 people over and over again, around corners but up and down a second floor Keep stairwell with no end to the battle in sight until they get tired.

frogthroat · February 5

Northwold wrote: »

Slight tangent but is it not possible to ban people based on their mac address so they cannot use the same machine on a different account to circumvent bans?

MAC address can be spoofed. Now with Win11 requiring TPM2.0, hardware ID (or "fingerprint") will be a bit better but of course software has to be able to use that. Not sure if ESO servers have the capability.

But that doesn't matter as much. The player got caught, and all their accounts are now banned. Of course they can buy a new license -- base game on discount is under 10 bucks so I would assume some CD key shops have it pretty cheap all year around. But with a brand new account you need to start everything from zero. Need to level up a character, get the sets, etc. That takes time. Then they can do this again, get banned again and have to start this all over again. In some games, like the oxidised iron game you play on an island, a cheater can just hop on to another account and continue as if nothing ever happened. In ESO you need to spend hours to get your character to even somewhat decent condition.

Wasting cheaters' time is a pretty good solution. Much better than having root level anti-cheats that affect all players, like some games have.

If anything, ESO could implement more time wasting counters to cheaters. Such as make an account wide invisible damage debuff "reduce damage done by 99%" and just watch how long the cheater wants to sit on that tower doing single digit damage numbers. Once they log off, ban them. But first let them waste hours by doing 1% damage.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · February 5

frogthroat wrote: »

But that doesn't matter as much. The player got caught, and all their accounts are now banned..

Firstly this is very unlikely to be the cheater's main account(s).
Secondly for someone (presumably using some cheating tools) levelling an account is incredibly easy to do. Additionally a levelled account isn't needed for doing this kind of thing - can simply go up to the location where you cannot be hit and siege from there.

If I was ZOS I'd have tried to look into the accounts trading and selling history since someone presumably fed the siege to the account.

imPDA · February 5

frogthroat wrote: »

Need to level up a character, get the sets, etc. That takes time.

They literally need to join the game, reach lvl 10 (required for joining Cyrodiil as I remember) and take ballistae from guild store. Nothing else needed to troll siege like this. They can have pile of ballistae already or just ask somebody to share.

For other cases, there are websites selling characters, and you can find cheap low CP characters with almost anything needed ready. At least, you don't need much if you will, let's say, invincible and invisible killing players from underground. You can even just use crafted sets, as they are not the worst for PvP.

Banning this person took too much time, if they appear again, and it again will take 4+ days - it will be spectacular.

frogthroat · February 5

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Firstly this is very unlikely to be the cheater's main account(s).

It probably wasn't. ZOS_Kevin said "Looks like the user and their various accounts have been banned." (Emphasis added.)

So yeah, now in the era of cheap keys from dubious sources, admins need to check if other accounts exist.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

If I was ZOS I'd have tried to look into the accounts trading and selling history since someone presumably fed the siege to the account.

That's a good idea. If some specific player keeps helping a cheater by sending siege weapons or some other things, that player should also be considered a cheater. If the siege weapons are from a guild bank, it's more difficult since joining a guild doesn't always require a lot of vetting. Guild masters can't easily check if someone joining their guild has used alternative accounts, so even if they know the cheater, it's difficult to prove.

Baertram · February 5

frogthroat wrote: »

If some specific player keeps helping a cheater by sending siege weapons or some other things, that player should also be considered a cheater.

Wait! How should these players know what the guy is doing if he just asks for some sieges by mail?
You cannot auto-ban someone for sending materials or sieges by mail please...

In this particular situation it might have been obvious for us but if the guy only asked in guild chat to get some sieges as he is not able to see a store (in the middle of Cyrodiil), I do not see why this should ban anyone just trying to "be kind and help a guild m8 or someone on friends list"

You can't put everyone under general suspicion.

aetherix8 · February 5

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

There is no reality where this isn't against TOS so I'm kind of baffled how Support is responding multiple times that this is fair game. How is Support saying that, like how does that happen?

edit: My ticket for this was just updated to let me know that this DID break TOS and action was taken. Thank you

One look at these shared screenshots is enough to tell that this is a blatant violation of ToS, since keep roofs are inaccessible to all players. But it appears that whoever reviewed those first reports never set foot in Cyro, and they had no idea that a player on a roof is a totally abnormal phenomenon.

It's a bit alarming to see that often it is necessary to open a thread on the forum, paste your ticket number, and tag Kevin (and customer support isn't really his job as far as I'm aware, but this is great that he reacts fast to such threads, thanks @ZOS_Kevin!). I mean, people reviewing PvP reports should perhaps have much better knowledge of this mode and its design to prevent the dismissing of obvious violations.

Erissime · February 5

A bit off topic here - but hopefully still on : One thing that I find positively daunting in reporting anything of this sort is the incessant request of proof through screenshots or even more preffered videos. Can I just say that as a simple user I have literally no will to stop my game in order to open up various other tabs and follow this or that sus person just to provide the devs with what should ultimately be their job. The best I can do - which should be enough - is provide the time of my witnessing the event and the location/platform/server. Everything else should be checked and accounted for by the devs themselves. This sort of requirements is downright game-disrupting, and the staff should take note of it. Thank you.

CalamityCat · February 5

Erissime wrote: »

A bit off topic here - but hopefully still on : One thing that I find positively daunting in reporting anything of this sort is the incessant request of proof through screenshots or even more preffered videos. Can I just say that as a simple user I have literally no will to stop my game in order to open up various other tabs and follow this or that sus person just to provide the devs with what should ultimately be their job. The best I can do - which should be enough - is provide the time of my witnessing the event and the location/platform/server. Everything else should be checked and accounted for by the devs themselves. This sort of requirements is downright game-disrupting, and the staff should take note of it. Thank you.

In that situation, I'd suggest sending a message over your guild/alliance chat to ask if anyone else can come and record evidence of a cheater, as there might be someone online who has the software to make a video and send in a report.

Desiato · February 5

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here before the end of the day. Customer service is actively reviewing the tickets now and doing a full investigation here. I should know more in the morning as to a final resolution here. But wanted to make sure there was an update provided before the end of the day. If you see the reported behavior again in-game, please keep a record of it. Thanks again for reporting this issue to us. Looking to get this resolved as soon as possible.

I really do appreciate the updates, but here's the thing. I know ZOS wants to revive PVP, but that's not going to happen without good cheat policies.

Issues like this needs to be addressed quickly. Like within hours. Players like this literally ruin the game for others. I can't stress that enough: ruin. And when they get away with it for days/weeks/months/years, the problem grows, especially in darkness.

Furthermore, should you be successful in making ESO PVP more popular, a point will be reached when it becomes viable for the billion dollar cheat industry to adapt their frameworks to ESO and start selling regularly updated cheats. Cheating in ESO currently flies under the radar only because it is so unpopular it is not currently worth their attention.

flyingparchment · February 6

it kind of sucks that this player was able to blatantly cheat for several days with no reaction from ZOS. @ZOS_Kevin if the company is serious about "improving communications" this time around, perhaps you could extend that to having support listen to players instead of closing tickets about obvious cheating without investigating.

Gabriel_H · February 6

I disagree with banning accounts. It's far too light a punishment.

Turn them into a chicken.
Don't allow them to equip gear and skills.
Let them have full access to see everything they can no longer use.

Edit: Also, turn people into a chicken for 30 minutes with no gear or skills equipped if they jump more than 10 times a minute - that or make jumping cost stamina.

aetherix8 · February 6

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I disagree with banning accounts. It's far too light a punishment.

Turn them into a chicken.
Don't allow them to equip gear and skills.
Let them have full access to see everything they can no longer use.

Edit: Also, turn people into a chicken for 30 minutes with no gear or skills equipped if they jump more than 10 times a minute - that or make jumping cost stamina.

What’s wrong with jumping? I thought it was “skill expression” exercise…

Other than that, turning exploiters into chickens is a great idea, but wouldn’t that require an actual GM in Cyro? And that appears to be some sort of a mythical creature that nobody has ever seen, except maybe at launch.