MMO Payment Structures - Cash Shops - ESO's Evolution

rhythmsuji · February 2

Hey All,

As the title says. This video is discussing what has occurred over the history of online gaming to my memory, and how I navigate the space. A couple funny moments, but this is primarily a discussion starter and ideally informative post.

The easy tl;dw of the video if you just wish to discuss it here without the video, is that we are unfortunately stuck with cash shops almost certainly.
At one point I thought they wouldn't last, but now they exist in just about every online service game. So it becomes more about WHAT they sell in the shops and how much of that scale we are willing to endure.

For me, the hard cut off without any doubt. Is being able to buy power, advantages, completion of major content without actually doing it, skipping weeks or months of grinding that non whale players otherwise have to do in order to "catch up" much later.

I believe ESO's changes can be great, but I am not without some concern as to what similar models tend to do in the cash shops. But If ESO stays where it's at, or even better in videogame integrity as far as "P2W" goes. Then I will be a very happy camper.
And I think tons of people will be very happy.

If they go insane, and decide to start selling things in the shop which compromise more game integrity, extra power boosts, advantages over others in meaningful ways etc. Then that will likely be the end of the road for me. But I really don't anticipate this happening.

GL HF!

-ESO Feanor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEQ6yAVquxk

ISO_Flow · February 2

I cannot believe how much cash shops have completely taken over the industry, I have kind of stayed in my bubble so I did not even realize how bad it was T.T

AlexanderDeLarge · February 2

ESO+ already feels blatantly pay-to-win. Playing without it means giving up millions of gold in crafting and gear progression because of the crafting bag and related inventory management benefits. The crafting bag when it was introduced might've been a minor inconvenience to players back when it was introduced in 2016 but after 12 years of chapters and zone DLCs and dungeons with their own materials, it's a damn near necessity at this point.

If Zenimax Online Studios truly wants to move toward a battle pass model, then they should commit to it fully. That would mean removing ESO+ and bundling its benefits into the battle pass for the duration of a season. That approach at least consolidates monetization instead of stacking it in perpetuity.

A battle pass plus a monthly ESO+ subscription on top of the cash shop is really excessive, and it's clearly a line being crossed for many players given the response since the showcase.

wolfie1.0. · February 2

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

ESO+ already feels blatantly pay-to-win. Playing without it means giving up millions of gold in crafting and gear progression because of the crafting bag and related inventory management benefits. The crafting bag when it was introduced might've been a minor inconvenience to players back when it was introduced in 2016 but after 12 years of chapters and zone DLCs and dungeons with their own materials, it's a damn near necessity at this point.

If Zenimax Online Studios truly wants to move toward a battle pass model, then they should commit to it fully. That would mean removing ESO+ and bundling its benefits into the battle pass for the duration of a season. That approach at least consolidates monetization instead of stacking it in perpetuity.

A battle pass plus a monthly ESO+ subscription on top of the cash shop is really excessive, and it's clearly a line being crossed for many players given the response since the showcase.

Do you really need the paid battlepass though?

And with just ESO+ the cost went down as you no longer need to buy chapters to access the new content. So before it was ESO+, a chapter, and a cash store.

Now its ESO+ plus an optional battle pass upgrade, plus a cash store. Its an improvement... for now.

ISO_Flow · February 2

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

ESO+ already feels blatantly pay-to-win. Playing without it means giving up millions of gold in crafting and gear progression because of the crafting bag and related inventory management benefits. The crafting bag when it was introduced might've been a minor inconvenience to players back when it was introduced in 2016 but after 12 years of chapters and zone DLCs and dungeons with their own materials, it's a damn near necessity at this point.

If Zenimax Online Studios truly wants to move toward a battle pass model, then they should commit to it fully. That would mean removing ESO+ and bundling its benefits into the battle pass for the duration of a season. That approach at least consolidates monetization instead of stacking it in perpetuity.

A battle pass plus a monthly ESO+ subscription on top of the cash shop is really excessive, and it's clearly a line being crossed for many players given the response since the showcase.

Game started as a mandatory sub. I never stopped viewing it as mandatory and I think that's perfectly fine.
Needing to pay for a service is normal and I dont view as P2W myself. But like OP said, being able to buy boons and upgrades... Usually endlessly and such, is the true P2W absolute worst.

Simply not getting everything for free is not "P2W" imo, having to pay people for their product a reasonable fee is just real life.

AlexanderDeLarge · February 2

For ESO+ and the crowns-for-gold marketplace (RMT) not to qualify as pay-to-win, the definition has to be contorted into something extremely narrow (and convenient).

Let’s be clear: this isn’t about a shady overseas gold-farmer operation. TESO explicitly enables and legitimizes these transactions. Crowns are bought with real money, converted into in-game advantages via gold, and fully sanctioned by the game. ZOS takes its cut and laughs all the way to the bank.

Swipe your credit card for $149.99 and get 21,000,000 gold in return. Call it whatever euphemism you want, but that’s real-money trading. MMORPGs 10 - 20 years ago would have banned you on the spot for this. So how exactly is officially sanctioned RMT not pay-to-win?

Buy crowns which get traded for gold at a 1 crown:1000 gold ratio. Gold buys gear, materials, carries, consumables, progression skips, and economic dominance. That’s power. That’s advantage. That’s P2W by any definition that isn’t deliberately trying to avoid the label.

What’s wild is how any criticism of this monetization gets dismissed as “asking for free stuff.” This is a buy-to-play game. Everyone here already paid to get in. No one on these forums is a freeloader by definition, especially not for expecting reasonable boundaries between gameplay and their credit cards.

You can enjoy TESO and still acknowledge that its monetization has crossed lines that MMOs used to take seriously. Pretending otherwise doesn’t make the game healthier, it just makes the discussion dishonest and makes everyone looking inward at our game roll their eyes.

Attorneyatlawl · February 3

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

For ESO+ and the crowns-for-gold marketplace (RMT) not to qualify as pay-to-win, the definition has to be contorted into something extremely narrow (and convenient).

Let’s be clear: this isn’t about a shady overseas gold-farmer operation. TESO explicitly enables and legitimizes these transactions. Crowns are bought with real money, converted into in-game advantages via gold, and fully sanctioned by the game. ZOS takes its cut and laughs all the way to the bank.

Swipe your credit card for $149.99 and get 21,000,000 gold in return. Call it whatever euphemism you want, but that’s real-money trading. MMORPGs 10 - 20 years ago would have banned you on the spot for this. So how exactly is officially sanctioned RMT not pay-to-win?

Buy crowns which get traded for gold at a 1 crown:1000 gold ratio. Gold buys gear, materials, carries, consumables, progression skips, and economic dominance. That’s power. That’s advantage. That’s P2W by any definition that isn’t deliberately trying to avoid the label.

What’s wild is how any criticism of this monetization gets dismissed as “asking for free stuff.” This is a buy-to-play game. Everyone here already paid to get in. No one on these forums is a freeloader by definition, especially not for expecting reasonable boundaries between gameplay and their credit cards.

You can enjoy TESO and still acknowledge that its monetization has crossed lines that MMOs used to take seriously. Pretending otherwise doesn’t make the game healthier, it just makes the discussion dishonest and makes everyone looking inward at our game roll their eyes.

Quoted for truth. The bus left the station a looooooong time ago on this one.

rhythmsuji · February 3

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

For ESO+ and the crowns-for-gold marketplace (RMT) not to qualify as pay-to-win, the definition has to be contorted into something extremely narrow (and convenient).

Let’s be clear: this isn’t about a shady overseas gold-farmer operation. TESO explicitly enables and legitimizes these transactions. Crowns are bought with real money, converted into in-game advantages via gold, and fully sanctioned by the game. ZOS takes its cut and laughs all the way to the bank.

Swipe your credit card for $149.99 and get 21,000,000 gold in return. Call it whatever euphemism you want, but that’s real-money trading. MMORPGs 10 - 20 years ago would have banned you on the spot for this. So how exactly is officially sanctioned RMT not pay-to-win?

Buy crowns which get traded for gold at a 1 crown:1000 gold ratio. Gold buys gear, materials, carries, consumables, progression skips, and economic dominance. That’s power. That’s advantage. That’s P2W by any definition that isn’t deliberately trying to avoid the label.

What’s wild is how any criticism of this monetization gets dismissed as “asking for free stuff.” This is a buy-to-play game. Everyone here already paid to get in. No one on these forums is a freeloader by definition, especially not for expecting reasonable boundaries between gameplay and their credit cards.

You can enjoy TESO and still acknowledge that its monetization has crossed lines that MMOs used to take seriously. Pretending otherwise doesn’t make the game healthier, it just makes the discussion dishonest and makes everyone looking inward at our game roll their eyes.

I do not disagree with this, and a decade+ ago I was disgusted by and refused to play any game with something like that in it.

BUT, unfortunately as discussed in the video. That would essentially mean I couldn't play any game anymore lol.

I do not disagree that there is >some< aspects of it in ESO, my disagreement is broad stroking all P2W as the same with no nuance. Or even more ridiculously, when people say things like "ESO is the worst at it" out of sheer ignorance.

Their monetization is wildly expensive, but the majority of it has nothing to do with competitive integrity which is the primary and most important factor of the term. Most of the gross whaling in ESO has to do with appearances, and then some people use it for completion. But the one difference which so far has not broken the camels back for me, is that a non-whale player can very quickly and easily cap out on power. And there is no structure for a whale to supersede the rest of the players in capabilities. Which tons of the pinnacle P2W games do.

And the sad reality for the one main aspect ESO has. Is that every online game will always have it, as long as there is a trade system. The only way to avoid illegal or legal RMT is to have zero trade. Because making it illegal for decades just meant that people willing to cheat could whale to a 3rd party.

Extremely frustrating.

SerafinaWaterstar · February 3

ESO+ is not play to win. It just isn’t.

ISO_Flow · February 3

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

ESO+ is not play to win. It just isn’t.

Nope not at all.

People pretend that live service games follow the same logic as single player offline games, like:
"I bought the game once, so now I get everything else for free!"

But unlike a single player game like Sonic on the sega genesis. ESO is constantly worked on, has a dev tea making new content, it costs money to run the servers, it costs money to fix bugs and do maintenance, it costs money to have costumer service etc.

Thinking that one tiny purchase is enough forever is super entitled and crazy. And it would be like uying1 Sonic game, and then demanding you get EVERY other sonic game for free going forward or else its "p2w". Thats the same logic these "ESO is p2w" people have.

Last'One · February 3

Why so much drama? There are other games on the market, aren't there?

AlexanderDeLarge · February 3

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

ESO+ is not play to win. It just isn’t.

Do you have an actual rebuttal? Because I’ve outlined, very specifically, how it is pay-to-win. Not having ESO+ means walking away from a majority of loot and materials due to inventory management constraints. That translates directly into millions of gold lost over time, missed equipment upgrades, and missed writs. That’s not cosmetic inconvenience, that’s a sustained gameplay disadvantage.

ISO_Flow wrote: »

People pretend that live service games follow the same logic as single player offline games, like:
"I bought the game once, so now I get everything else for free!"

But unlike a single player game like Sonic on the sega genesis. ESO is constantly worked on, has a dev tea making new content, it costs money to run the servers, it costs money to fix bugs and do maintenance, it costs money to have costumer service etc.

Thinking that one tiny purchase is enough forever is super entitled and crazy. And it would be like uying1 Sonic game, and then demanding you get EVERY other sonic game for free going forward or else its "p2w". Thats the same logic these "ESO is p2w" people have.

Incredibly disingenuous strawman. No one here is arguing that everything should be free. The issue is that ESO’s monetization fundamentally alters the core gameplay loop, specifically looting, in an Elder Scrolls MMORPG.

We’re talking about a game with:

A subscription that penalizes you constantly for not having it
Loot boxes
Ten years of paid quarterly DLC
Ten years of paid annual expansions
$100 houses
Paid mount skins, character skins, and ability skins
Login rewards (a classic dark pattern)
Any Race Any Alliance
Paid Imperial race
Paid classes
Character-specific armory slots
Character-specific outfit slots
A paid battle pass

And that’s not even an exhaustive list.

I’ve spent well over a thousand dollars on this game since it went buy-to-play, without subscribing. Collector’s Editions and Crown packs add up fast. Yet I’ve been at a permanent disadvantage because I chose to buy content rather than rent it. So no, accusing people like me of being freeloaders doesn’t hold water.

AlexanderDeLarge · February 3

rhythmsuji wrote: »

I do not disagree that there is >some< aspects of it in ESO, my disagreement is broad stroking all P2W as the same with no nuance. Or even more ridiculously, when people say things like "ESO is the worst at it" out of sheer ignorance.

Their monetization is wildly expensive, but the majority of it has nothing to do with competitive integrity which is the primary and most important factor of the term. Most of the gross whaling in ESO has to do with appearances, and then some people use it for completion. But the one difference which so far has not broken the camels back for me, is that a non-whale player can very quickly and easily cap out on power. And there is no structure for a whale to supersede the rest of the players in capabilities. Which tons of the pinnacle P2W games do.

Extremely frustrating.

I am bringing nuance, it just doesn’t land in ESO’s favor. Pay-to-win is a spectrum, not a binary yes/no, and ESO sits far closer to the wrong end of that spectrum for non-subscribers and anyone without deep pockets.

“Most” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Swiping a credit card can bypass months, or even years of currency-related grind and convert directly into power, which directly contradicts the idea that monetization doesn’t impact competitive integrity.

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of meta-relevant, tradable gear sets that sell for hundreds of thousands or millions of gold and provide real advantages in both PvE and PvP. When 21,000,000 gold costs $150, pretending that doesn’t matter is just willful denial of how corrosive these monetary advantages are in-game.

rhythmsuji wrote: »

And the sad reality for the one main aspect ESO has. Is that every online game will always have it, as long as there is a trade system. The only way to avoid illegal or legal RMT is to have zero trade. Because making it illegal for decades just meant that people willing to cheat could whale to a 3rd party.

RMT being a bannable offense is a significant deterrent in an MMORPG where players invest thousands of hours and often significant amounts money into their accounts. That’s especially true in this game. Are most people really willing to risk a CP3600 account for shortcuts? There’s a massive difference between black markets at risk of punishment and one that's facilitated and given the ZOS seal of approval.

rhythmsuji wrote: »

I do not disagree with this, and a decade+ ago I was disgusted by and refused to play any game with something like that in it.

BUT, unfortunately as discussed in the video. That would essentially mean I couldn't play any game anymore lol.

Hence this segment of my reply.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You can enjoy TESO and still acknowledge that its monetization has crossed lines that MMOs used to take seriously. Pretending otherwise doesn’t make the game healthier, it just makes the discussion dishonest and makes everyone looking inward at our game roll their eyes.

shadyjane62 · February 4

Since things were essentially one way for 10 years, last year being the first one that,s different I will wait and see what happens. I am filling up my craft bag and making anything I might need.

I'm not really understanding how anything will work in the near future, the same way I understood nothing about the ridiculous Writhing wall debacle.

Hopefully things will become clear, but I know I'm not spending any real life money on another disappointing year.