Have both: guild kiosks and a central marketplace

Frayton · January 24

Instead of having each kiosk owned by a guild, have one kiosk be a main central market where anyone can sell.

This gives all players access to high traffic exposure to sell their items, which is something that is currently only accessible to high end trading guilds. It also gives very active sellers more than 30 slots to trade without having to join 5 dedicated trading guilds, and it improves the buyer experience by reducing the time it takes to find items.

Create 1 or 3 (one for each faction) major trading hubs where guild kiosks surround a main kiosk that houses the centralized market. The layout can be something like the Mournhold trading hub in Deshaan where the guild kiosks encircle the wayshrine.

Another idea is to keep the current trading hubs, and just add the central market kiosk to each of those. This preserves the current system while integrating the new one.

SkaiFaith · January 24

Frayton wrote: »

Instead of having each kiosk owned by a guild, have one kiosk be a main central market where anyone can sell.

This gives all players access to high traffic exposure to sell their items, which is something that is currently only accessible to high end trading guilds. It also gives very active sellers more than 30 slots to trade without having to join 5 dedicated trading guilds, and it improves the buyer experience by reducing the time it takes to find items.

Create 1 or 3 (one for each faction) major trading hubs where guild kiosks surround a main kiosk that houses the centralized market. The layout can be something like the Mournhold trading hub in Deshaan where the guild kiosks encircle the wayshrine.

Another idea is to keep the current trading hubs, and just add the central market kiosk to each of those. This preserves the current system while integrating the new one.

Forgive my ignorance, there's always one thing that escapes me when I see this kind of proposals...

With just kiosks I can set a higher price and still get purchased simply because the buyer didn't see that at another kiosk the same item was at a cheaper price...

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

I repeat, I am no economy expert, but I can't not see it this way - how to avoid it?

Frayton · January 24

SkaiFaith wrote: »

With just kiosks I can set a higher price and still get purchased simply because the buyer didn't see that at another kiosk the same item was at a cheaper price...

You want separate kiosks so you can sell higher to unknowing buyers? Is this what you're saying? That's a bit underhanded and predatory if that's indeed what you're saying bc it relies on buyers being uninformed. Competition keeps a market healthy by keeping excessive pricing in check.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

tomofhyrule · January 24

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

So if one person can see all listings at the same time, what is to stop that one person from buying every single one of the items immediately and then relisting them all themself at 100x the price?

Especially since there are people in ESO who absolutely have the capital to do that.

Frayton · January 24

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

So if one person can see all listings at the same time, what is to stop that one person from buying every single one of the items immediately and then relisting them all themself at 100x the price?

Especially since there are people in ESO who absolutely have the capital to do that.

Monopolies are a concern in any market, and it happens even with our current trading system. Also, a hybrid system doesn't replace the current system, but adds to it.

A more accessible market actually tempers monopolies bc you're up against the entire player base instead of a few select guilds.

Cooperharley · January 24

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

So if one person can see all listings at the same time, what is to stop that one person from buying every single one of the items immediately and then relisting them all themself at 100x the price?

Especially since there are people in ESO who absolutely have the capital to do that.

People can do that currently. They can go around and purchase a vast majority of items. It’s also why listings need to be limited.

Also, at 100x the price of anything, no one would buy said item

I think it sounds great. I’ve long wanted a central AH. Not a fan of the current system for the predatory reasons listed above. All it is is a barrier to entry currently to make money for the sake of roleplay basically

LunaFlora · January 24

yea this sounds good to me

SilverBride · January 24

It should be one way or the other. Having more than one way of trading will just complicate things.

I personally prefer the current system.

tomofhyrule · January 24

Frayton wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

So if one person can see all listings at the same time, what is to stop that one person from buying every single one of the items immediately and then relisting them all themself at 100x the price?

Especially since there are people in ESO who absolutely have the capital to do that.

Monopolies are a concern in any market, and it happens even with our current trading system. Also, a hybrid system doesn't replace the current system, but adds to it.

A more accessible market actually tempers monopolies bc you're up against the entire player base instead of a few select guilds.

Up against the entire playerbase? Which system allows one single person to control the entire market better, one where a single person can walk up to a single central hub and have their addon buy everything as fast as the GCD allows, or one that forces them to port around the world and physically spend the time running up to every trader before they can buy things, even if they're also using an addon to find where things are?

Look, the arguments you're making are not new at all. People have been trying to remove the Guild Trader system since ESO started (and yes, don't give me this "we can have both!" argument; these systems are fundamentally opposing each other and everyone who makes this argument really just wants to not deal with guild traders). I feel like there's at least one thread a month of someone coming up with the same arguments about why the ESO trading system failed (even though it's going strong), and in a lot of those cases it really seems like the person making the thread is someone who doesn't want to interact with the system but still wants to get the benefits of it.

ESO's trading system is not perfect at all. It would be great if a TTC-esque thing was native to the game so you didn't have to try to find out if someone was selling a single luxury vendor furnishing from 8 months ago. But the culture of ESO's trading community has grown around ESO's system, which is unique to this game. What you're essentially asking for is to remove an entire endgame activity from the game. For some people, the trading system is the game.

Furthermore, the requirement to be in a guild is a feature, not a bug. ESO, as an MMO, does still want to have people make connections to other people, since that means there are more hooks to keep people playing. This is again going back to the recent arguments about solo- versus group-play. There are a lot of people who see a certain playstyle and, either because of a bad interactrion or two or because they only listen to the horror stories, decide that all group stuff is super hyper toxic and they never want to even engage with the system but they still demand that they be accommodated by getting the benefits. Or... someone could just say "hey, that interaction was not cool, so let me find another guild that is not terrible like that."

Honestly, now that Overland Difficulty is being addressed, we can get rid of that sticky and make a "I have complaints about the guild trader system" into the new sticky where we direct every thread like this. We have yet to see a single unique argument that hasn't been seen hundreds of times before.

Frayton · January 24

Cooperharley wrote: »

People can do that currently. They can go around and purchase a vast majority of items. It’s also why listings need to be limited.

Also, at 100x the price of anything, no one would buy said item

I think it sounds great. I’ve long wanted a central AH. Not a fan of the current system for the predatory reasons listed above. All it is is a barrier to entry currently to make money for the sake of roleplay basically

Exactly. An open market is more conducive to fair value pricing than extremes of the price ranges. Good luck to anyone who thinks they can buy up everything and sell at an exorbitant price when the whole player base can constantly add to the market at lower prices.

It doesn't matter how much gold you have. You will never be able to outpace the supply of the entire player base.

I've made billions of gold in this game and currently have 10 figures in the bank. Most of that was made through the guild kiosk system, so I can say with some degree of certainty that it is very difficult to monopolize anything for an extended period of time when players are constantly pouring fresh supply into the market.

SkaiFaith · January 24

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

With just kiosks I can set a higher price and still get purchased simply because the buyer didn't see that at another kiosk the same item was at a cheaper price...

You want separate kiosks so you can sell higher to unknowing buyers? Is this what you're saying? That's a bit underhanded and predatory if that's indeed what you're saying bc it relies on buyers being uninformed. Competition keeps a market healthy by keeping excessive pricing in check.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

You can see this happening in Mournhold with every event - first Outfit page gets set at 100K, the second at 90K the third at 80K and in just the first day they get as low as 30K and there are flippers happy to buy at little markets for 500 and resell for 25K.

I don't see how having all prices together would not crash the market making everyone undercut and reducing prices to something not even worth posting: you see this every second half of events, with the market being flooded of super cheap pieces at that point better destroyed than posted.

If botters would post tons of materials in a main page, what chance would have I to make money if I set my prices according to theirs but mine is one post in 2.000? I'd have to undercut to sell, and then someone else would undercut me, and so on...
Having only kiosks helps regulate a bit these kind of behaviours - which by the way, doesn't make sense to morally judge; it's the markets' reality.

spartaxoxo · January 24

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

So if one person can see all listings at the same time, what is to stop that one person from buying every single one of the items immediately and then relisting them all themself at 100x the price?

Especially since there are people in ESO who absolutely have the capital to do that.

This is why most MMOs have more inflation than ESO. I actually used to assume it was just a normal part of playing MMOs and that people who come late to the party just had to understand the game had been around so long that it was inevitable.

And then I played ESO on console and the prices have remained affordable all these years later. And I realized that when flipping is harder than less people will do it and monopolies become harder to establish.

Necrotech_Master · January 24

if you had both a central system and guild traders, the guild traders would quite literally become abandoned

i am absolutely extremely against going to a centralized system that is prone to manipulation

i guess you want dreugh wax to go back up to 70k gold per unit because some rich person bought every listing on the central system, then relisted them at 50x the original prices, which you are now pretty much forced to pay as they will then set the standard

anyone selling less than that will have their stuff sold quicker yes, but 80% chance its the same person/group who cornered the market buying up all the cheap items and then again relisting to the higher prices

and yes ive seen it happen, like literally seen people who do nothing but camp the central auction house 24/7 and do that kind of stuff

Frayton · January 24

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Look, the arguments you're making are not new at all. People have been trying to remove the Guild Trader system since ESO started (and yes, don't give me this "we can have both!" argument; these systems are fundamentally opposing each other and everyone who makes this argument really just wants to not deal with guild traders). I feel like there's at least one thread a month of someone coming up with the same arguments about why the ESO trading system failed (even though it's going strong), and in a lot of those cases it really seems like the person making the thread is someone who doesn't want to interact with the system but still wants to get the benefits of it.

You misunderstand me. I actually like some of the current system bc it has good features. A hybrid isn't a replacement, but an addition to broaden the sellers and improve buyer experience.

freespirit · January 24

You are on PC, on PC you can currently see the whole market by using TTC Website, don't even need the addon.

If one of my guild's ends up in a backwater spot or less popular area, I just make sure I scan that store with the addon every day, guess what?

If it's priced well, it still sells!

If you have 10 figures in the bank you are aware of this already.

I don't necessarily think a Global Trader in main cities as well as the current system is a bad idea but would prefer it to be an extra not a replacement!

Frayton · January 24

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

With just kiosks I can set a higher price and still get purchased simply because the buyer didn't see that at another kiosk the same item was at a cheaper price...

You want separate kiosks so you can sell higher to unknowing buyers? Is this what you're saying? That's a bit underhanded and predatory if that's indeed what you're saying bc it relies on buyers being uninformed. Competition keeps a market healthy by keeping excessive pricing in check.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

You can see this happening in Mournhold with every event - first Outfit page gets set at 100K, the second at 90K the third at 80K and in just the first day they get as low as 30K and there are flippers happy to buy at little markets for 500 and resell for 25K.

I don't see how having all prices together would not crash the market making everyone undercut and reducing prices to something not even worth posting: you see this every second half of events, with the market being flooded of super cheap pieces at that point better destroyed than posted.

If botters would post tons of materials in a main page, what chance would have I to make money if I set my prices according to theirs but mine is one post in 2.000? I'd have to undercut to sell, and then someone else would undercut me, and so on...
Having only kiosks helps regulate a bit these kind of behaviours - which by the way, doesn't make sense to morally judge; it's the markets' reality.

You're describing supply and demand. It happens in the real world as well, and it's a good thing bc it's what makes markets flow and keeps prices closer to fair value. If you're trying to sell an item for 100k and it's only worth 1k, that's buyers saying you're too expensive, it's not manipulation.

robertlabrie · January 24

Centralized listings: yes please. Make Tamriel Trade Centre an official thing. Centralized sellers, no thanks, it would make the guild trader kiosks meaningless.

And no, it's not underhanded to sell items at a higher price in a high traffic location in the hopes that a potential buyer doesn't test out the Clockwork City Outlaws Refuge. ESO actually has one of the most realistic in game economies (when ZOS isn't stimulating it with free mats for 3 months) in large part because of the decentralized trader system.

Frayton · January 24

freespirit wrote: »

You are on PC, on PC you can currently see the whole market by using TTC Website, don't even need the addon.

If one of my guild's ends up in a backwater spot or less popular area, I just make sure I scan that store with the addon every day, guess what?

If it's priced well, it still sells!

If you have 10 figures in the bank you are aware of this already.

I don't necessarily think a Global Trader in main cities as well as the current system is a bad idea but would prefer it to be an extra not a replacement!

That's what I was thinking too. Not a total replacement of the current system, but a complement to it that broadens seller participation and streamlines the buyer experience.

SkaiFaith · January 24

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

With just kiosks I can set a higher price and still get purchased simply because the buyer didn't see that at another kiosk the same item was at a cheaper price...

You want separate kiosks so you can sell higher to unknowing buyers? Is this what you're saying? That's a bit underhanded and predatory if that's indeed what you're saying bc it relies on buyers being uninformed. Competition keeps a market healthy by keeping excessive pricing in check.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

You can see this happening in Mournhold with every event - first Outfit page gets set at 100K, the second at 90K the third at 80K and in just the first day they get as low as 30K and there are flippers happy to buy at little markets for 500 and resell for 25K.

I don't see how having all prices together would not crash the market making everyone undercut and reducing prices to something not even worth posting: you see this every second half of events, with the market being flooded of super cheap pieces at that point better destroyed than posted.

If botters would post tons of materials in a main page, what chance would have I to make money if I set my prices according to theirs but mine is one post in 2.000? I'd have to undercut to sell, and then someone else would undercut me, and so on...
Having only kiosks helps regulate a bit these kind of behaviours - which by the way, doesn't make sense to morally judge; it's the markets' reality.

You're describing supply and demand. It happens in the real world as well, and it's a good thing bc it's what makes markets flow and keeps prices closer to fair value. If you're trying to sell an item for 100k and it's only worth 1k, that's buyers saying you're too expensive, it's not manipulation.

It looks like you are arguing in favor of "Amazon" over local stores - I get the point about comfort and advantage for customers, but don't expect your "local stores" to be happy XD
Just saying...

Frayton · January 24

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

With just kiosks I can set a higher price and still get purchased simply because the buyer didn't see that at another kiosk the same item was at a cheaper price...

You want separate kiosks so you can sell higher to unknowing buyers? Is this what you're saying? That's a bit underhanded and predatory if that's indeed what you're saying bc it relies on buyers being uninformed. Competition keeps a market healthy by keeping excessive pricing in check.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

You can see this happening in Mournhold with every event - first Outfit page gets set at 100K, the second at 90K the third at 80K and in just the first day they get as low as 30K and there are flippers happy to buy at little markets for 500 and resell for 25K.

I don't see how having all prices together would not crash the market making everyone undercut and reducing prices to something not even worth posting: you see this every second half of events, with the market being flooded of super cheap pieces at that point better destroyed than posted.

If botters would post tons of materials in a main page, what chance would have I to make money if I set my prices according to theirs but mine is one post in 2.000? I'd have to undercut to sell, and then someone else would undercut me, and so on...
Having only kiosks helps regulate a bit these kind of behaviours - which by the way, doesn't make sense to morally judge; it's the markets' reality.

You're describing supply and demand. It happens in the real world as well, and it's a good thing bc it's what makes markets flow and keeps prices closer to fair value. If you're trying to sell an item for 100k and it's only worth 1k, that's buyers saying you're too expensive, it's not manipulation.

It looks like you are arguing in favor of "Amazon" over local stores - I get the point about comfort and advantage for customers, but don't expect your "local stores" to be happy XD
Just saying...

Not necessarily big stores vs mom and pop shops. As a seller that made tens of millions a week when I traded, I get your overall concern and where you're coming from, but at the same time, I know that timing is much more important than trying to undercut or oversell items. Timing can be greatly improved if the market is more open bc there's a bigger pool of traders.

JavaRen · January 25

Any hybrid system that makes the hard work of trade officers matter less is a non-starter for me (and many others I know), ZOS would then lose far more moey on subs and crrown sales than any potential benefit.

Northwold · January 25

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

So if one person can see all listings at the same time, what is to stop that one person from buying every single one of the items immediately and then relisting them all themself at 100x the price?

Especially since there are people in ESO who absolutely have the capital to do that.

Monopolies are a concern in any market, and it happens even with our current trading system. Also, a hybrid system doesn't replace the current system, but adds to it.

A more accessible market actually tempers monopolies bc you're up against the entire player base instead of a few select guilds.

Up against the entire playerbase? Which system allows one single person to control the entire market better, one where a single person can walk up to a single central hub and have their addon buy everything as fast as the GCD allows, or one that forces them to port around the world and physically spend the time running up to every trader before they can buy things, even if they're also using an addon to find where things are?

.

The problem with this argument is that the very nature of ESO's trading system, which requires people to join guilds, means a very a large proportion of the player base do not sell *at all*. So while with the existing system price transparency is reduced which makes flipping more time consuming (although it is still hardly invisible -- it is a major force in the player economy), the SUPPLY OF GOODS in the first place is also *hugely* reduced so there is less supply to compete with and, in extremis, less that a flipper would need to buy to move the market.

I find the guild membership gate utterly bizarre and it shouldn't exist. It is plain wrong for an open-to-everyone MMO and means many players never sell.

I don't know if the solution is a central auction house or some sort of "open to all" computer administered set of traders that work just like the guild traders but with eg higher taxes (I've discussed this ad nauseam over the years -- it at least preserves the decentralised shopping experience). But the current system is utterly ludicrous. It makes trading into a distinct, main gameplay event, which makes the game incredibly frustrating for everyone who doesn't WANT trading to be the main event, which I strongly suspect is by far the majority of ESO's playerbase.

Trading is a fundamental back end system for almost every broad-audience MMO. But ESO treats it as some sort of weird niche minigame. It has GOT to be fixed. It's alienating, tiring, boring and exceptionally irritating to people who want to use trading for its ordinary MMO function -- namely to *support* other gameplay, rather than *being* the gameplay.

Incidentally you complain that there is "one thread a month" on this. Instead of dismissing that, perhaps people should read it as an indication that plenty of players really, really don't like the present trading system.

JustLovely · January 25

I'd only be OK with a central marketplace if items listed couldn't exceed about 50k in value.

tomofhyrule · January 25

Northwold wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

So if one person can see all listings at the same time, what is to stop that one person from buying every single one of the items immediately and then relisting them all themself at 100x the price?

Especially since there are people in ESO who absolutely have the capital to do that.

Monopolies are a concern in any market, and it happens even with our current trading system. Also, a hybrid system doesn't replace the current system, but adds to it.

A more accessible market actually tempers monopolies bc you're up against the entire player base instead of a few select guilds.

Up against the entire playerbase? Which system allows one single person to control the entire market better, one where a single person can walk up to a single central hub and have their addon buy everything as fast as the GCD allows, or one that forces them to port around the world and physically spend the time running up to every trader before they can buy things, even if they're also using an addon to find where things are?

.

The problem with this argument is that the very nature of ESO's trading system, which requires people to join guilds, means a very a large proportion of the player base do not sell *at all*. So while with the existing system price transparency is reduced which makes flipping more time consuming (although it is still hardly invisible -- it is a major force in the player economy), the SUPPLY OF GOODS in the first place is also *hugely* reduced so there is less supply to compete with and, in extremis, less that a flipper would need to buy to move the market.

I find the guild membership gate utterly bizarre and it shouldn't exist. It is plain wrong for an open-to-everyone MMO and means many players never sell.

I don't know if the solution is a central auction house or some sort of "open to all" computer administered set of traders that work just like the guild traders but with eg higher taxes (I've discussed this ad nauseam over the years -- it at least preserves the decentralised shopping experience). But the current system is utterly ludicrous. It makes trading into a distinct, main gameplay event, which makes the game incredibly frustrating for everyone who doesn't WANT trading to be the main event, which I strongly suspect is by far the majority of ESO's playerbase.

Trading is a fundamental back end system for almost every broad-audience MMO. But ESO treats it as some sort of weird niche minigame. It has GOT to be fixed. It's alienating, tiring, boring and exceptionally irritating to people who want to use trading for its ordinary MMO function -- namely to *support* other gameplay, rather than *being* the gameplay.

I do think a "guildless" trader would be nice to have, but it should have downsides like higher fees and fewer slots. Also a native version of something like TTC would be great (but that could be intensive to the server, considering the functionality of TTC is holding an entire list on a separate website)

One of the main things with ESO is the number of players who categorically refuse to do anything in any way social. After all, see all of the current complaints about grouping in general.

While ZOS has been ensuring that ESO is extremely friendly to solo players, much more so than most other MMOs. However, they have still said that they intend that players do still do something social like joining guilds. It is actually in an MMO's best interest for players to be social with other players because that will mean that players have more hooks to the game - players then have the incentive to log in again to hang out with their friends and keep playing the game.

Northwold wrote: »

Incidentally you complain that there is "one thread a month" on this. Instead of dismissing that, perhaps people should read it as an indication that plenty of players really, really don't like the present trading system.

I also will note that we also constantly have many players complain about PvP being toxic and unfun. ZOS listened to them and completely changed BGs to two team... completely driving away the players who did like the old system, not bringing anyone new to the game, and making some achievements completely unobtainable. They are just now considering reverting that, which is likely not to bring the players back.
See also Vengeance, which is also infuriating to many of those who actually play Cyrodiil.

While "many complaints" usually means something that people will want to change, there is also the idea that just people people are loud doesn't mean you'll bring them in if you address those complaints - you have just as good a chance of just driving away the people who do engage with the system while not bringing anyone new in.

Again, many of the complaints come from players who refuse to interact with others at all. But there are a lot of players who do interact with the system enjoy it the way it is. If it is changed to something else, you will definitely drive away the ones who are happy with the system and are not guaranteed to get anyone new in.

And again, many of the arguments from the players who do not engage with the system involve around "make one single auction house," which absolutely will lead to one person with a billion gold just camping the auction house and using an addon to instantly buy everything and control the market with one click, but the only argument is "that doesn't happen in other games" (despite that also meaning the economy and player sentiment is different from other games as well).

SerafinaWaterstar · January 25

Please, not another thread about this.

Trading. It is what it is in ESO. Works ok. Changing it would fundamentally change the game.

And so what if you have to join a guild to sell on a big scale? That’s how the game is set up. Guilds are a great part of the game.

wolfie1.0. · January 25

Frayton wrote: »

Instead of having each kiosk owned by a guild, have one kiosk be a main central market where anyone can sell.

This gives all players access to high traffic exposure to sell their items, which is something that is currently only accessible to high end trading guilds. It also gives very active sellers more than 30 slots to trade without having to join 5 dedicated trading guilds, and it improves the buyer experience by reducing the time it takes to find items.

Create 1 or 3 (one for each faction) major trading hubs where guild kiosks surround a main kiosk that houses the centralized market. The layout can be something like the Mournhold trading hub in Deshaan where the guild kiosks encircle the wayshrine.

Another idea is to keep the current trading hubs, and just add the central market kiosk to each of those. This preserves the current system while integrating the new one.

This idea comes up a lot, and players keep insisting that both systems can coexist and work.

So my question to you is this. Please explain to me in detail how trade guilds will be able to compete with a centralized trade hub? Will there be 300 guild traders located around it?

How many players can access the central market? What are the requirements? Do they bid?

Why would a player join a guild to trade when they no longer need to?
Why would they bother interacting with guild trader kiosks when the central market exists?

Known player behavior indicates that players will sacrifice convenience and reliability over cost and effort which is why certian locations and traders cost guilds significantly more than others. Players prefer locations such as Mournhold and vivec city over ones like orisnium for a reason. Which is why the most prolific traders go there to sell, and are able to demand more.

With the above conditions and known behavior why would anyone sell or even visit one of the guild traders? How do you compete?

Its simple, you cant. This would be the equivalent of dropping a Walmart in town and expecting all of the small business shops to compete. It might work, but in many many cases Walmart becomes the only store in town.

And this is before we even bring up the technical challenges to having such a store.

SummersetCitizen · January 25

No thank you.

Centralized trading will be a race to the bottom for most items.

The few items which are rare enough to not have a price implosion will be quickly and heavily flipped.

The current system has several hurdles to access the market that helps prevent bad actors from upsetting stability.

JustLovely · January 25

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

No thank you.

Centralized trading will be a race to the bottom for most items.

The few items which are rare enough to not have a price implosion will be quickly and heavily flipped.

The current system had several hurdles to access the market that helps prevent bad actors from upsetting stability.

Yet there are still some people that essentially only play the market in ESO. I don't understand how or why they do it, but it's fun for them to have billions of gold to show for it.

It would be impossible for the rest of us to get what we need from a central auction house due to inflation and flippers.

wolfie1.0. · January 25

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

No thank you.

Centralized trading will be a race to the bottom for most items.

The few items which are rare enough to not have a price implosion will be quickly and heavily flipped.

The current system had several hurdles to access the market that helps prevent bad actors from upsetting stability.

Also, without barriers to entry, gold sellers and bots will dominate the market.

Cooperharley · January 25

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if you had both a central system and guild traders, the guild traders would quite literally become abandoned

i am absolutely extremely against going to a centralized system that is prone to manipulation

i guess you want dreugh wax to go back up to 70k gold per unit because some rich person bought every listing on the central system, then relisted them at 50x the original prices, which you are now pretty much forced to pay as they will then set the standard

anyone selling less than that will have their stuff sold quicker yes, but 80% chance its the same person/group who cornered the market buying up all the cheap items and then again relisting to the higher prices

and yes ive seen it happen, like literally seen people who do nothing but camp the central auction house 24/7 and do that kind of stuff

Have you played any other MMO? Virtually every other MMO has a centralized AH and it's totally fine. ESO did this to be different and all it does it create a barrier to entry.

You could even create the system to where everyone gets X number of listings in the centralized AH and then can ALSO post an additional 30 slots per guild trader for instance.

Northwold · January 25

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If all prices, all items, are available to purchase from the same screen page... Wouldn't be sold just the cheaper ones leaving the more expensive ones unsold? And in a scenario like this, wouldn't everyone try to undercut the others making prices losing any sense?

The law of supply and demand always wins in a more accessible market, so prices will always skew more to fair value than either extreme (too cheap or too expensive) of the price range.

So if one person can see all listings at the same time, what is to stop that one person from buying every single one of the items immediately and then relisting them all themself at 100x the price?

Especially since there are people in ESO who absolutely have the capital to do that.

Monopolies are a concern in any market, and it happens even with our current trading system. Also, a hybrid system doesn't replace the current system, but adds to it.

A more accessible market actually tempers monopolies bc you're up against the entire player base instead of a few select guilds.

Up against the entire playerbase? Which system allows one single person to control the entire market better, one where a single person can walk up to a single central hub and have their addon buy everything as fast as the GCD allows, or one that forces them to port around the world and physically spend the time running up to every trader before they can buy things, even if they're also using an addon to find where things are?

.

The problem with this argument is that the very nature of ESO's trading system, which requires people to join guilds, means a very a large proportion of the player base do not sell *at all*. So while with the existing system price transparency is reduced which makes flipping more time consuming (although it is still hardly invisible -- it is a major force in the player economy), the SUPPLY OF GOODS in the first place is also *hugely* reduced so there is less supply to compete with and, in extremis, less that a flipper would need to buy to move the market.

I find the guild membership gate utterly bizarre and it shouldn't exist. It is plain wrong for an open-to-everyone MMO and means many players never sell.

I don't know if the solution is a central auction house or some sort of "open to all" computer administered set of traders that work just like the guild traders but with eg higher taxes (I've discussed this ad nauseam over the years -- it at least preserves the decentralised shopping experience). But the current system is utterly ludicrous. It makes trading into a distinct, main gameplay event, which makes the game incredibly frustrating for everyone who doesn't WANT trading to be the main event, which I strongly suspect is by far the majority of ESO's playerbase.

Trading is a fundamental back end system for almost every broad-audience MMO. But ESO treats it as some sort of weird niche minigame. It has GOT to be fixed. It's alienating, tiring, boring and exceptionally irritating to people who want to use trading for its ordinary MMO function -- namely to *support* other gameplay, rather than *being* the gameplay.

I do think a "guildless" trader would be nice to have, but it should have downsides like higher fees and fewer slots. Also a native version of something like TTC would be great (but that could be intensive to the server, considering the functionality of TTC is holding an entire list on a separate website)

One of the main things with ESO is the number of players who categorically refuse to do anything in any way social. After all, see all of the current complaints about grouping in general.

While ZOS has been ensuring that ESO is extremely friendly to solo players, much more so than most other MMOs. However, they have still said that they intend that players do still do something social like joining guilds. It is actually in an MMO's best interest for players to be social with other players because that will mean that players have more hooks to the game - players then have the incentive to log in again to hang out with their friends and keep playing the game.

Agree on the first bit.

I don't disagree on the second bit that there should be some things that encourage grouping. But I genuinely think that the trading system is about the most obviously unsuitable system they could have picked for that purpose in this kind of MMO. They might as well have made having an inventory dependent on guild membership - - it feels that misguided and mildly crazy in terms of what the game *function* of a player trading economy actually is. It feels, in sum, like a fundamental misunderstanding of what most players in an MMO use trading *for* and what they expect from it.