MMO does NOT mean Grouping

AScarlato · January 22

When posters are personally insulting others for having a different view on this long standing issue, I believe it has risen to that level.

I just find it an odd use of the dev's time for them to summon them here to state the obvious. The content they release speaks for itself as to their desire to have a broad audience and not only a very specific playerbase.

For reference you can just go here: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/discover

SummersetCitizen · January 22

This illustrates why this forum, and some users within it, are often perceived as frustrating and nonproductive.

Soarora · January 22

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Group players are afraid the dungeon queue will be harmed by solo dungeons and that Night Market will be nerfed.
Solo players feel victimized and are afraid solo dungeons will be taken away.

We’re even, really. We’re both just scared.

The end game vs solo playstyles debate has been going on a long time. It has just escalated with the upcoming changes. But no matter what our concerns are it does not justify devolving to the point of personally attacking other posters.

I think that’s exactly it. We’re already salty with each other due to personal experiences (underperforming and overreacting casuals in group content as well as elitist people with no patience not giving people a chance) and the scheduling changeup has made it boil over. We’ve been fighting for dev time with content diminishing over the years and now with dev time being unstable and the future being uncertain…

For some time now, I’ve considered the true ouroboros of ESO to be solo/casual vs group PvE vs PvP. Even when we had the common enemy of ZOS, we keep biting each other instead. But ESO’s big enough for all of us. We are all important to keeping the game afloat.

SilverBride · January 22

AScarlato wrote: »

I haven't seen any mass personal attacks; I'd just block any specific people if you feel that way. I had someone cross the line but I just put them on block. Even if they continue to reply it doesn't matter since you don't have to see it.

Anyway, just my two sense. You don't have to continue to interact with any specific people and I'm not sure the devs need to get involved with every disagreement but you do you.

I did what I thought would be beneficial.

katanagirl1 · January 22

I tried to get through all the comments but it is getting late.

This may or may not be applicable to this thread, but many things that I hear lately on the news make me think of that old saying “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me.” I don’t want to get too much into a discussion about society in America today, but all this insistence on safe spaces has caused people to be unable to just see something and move on, instead it must be physically removed. You might be able to argue that it would be proper to do so in a forum, where people are interacting directly, versus the situation where someone is just surfing the internet and finds some personally offensive material. I think I that is what OP is saying.

Really, all types of players have coexisted in the game mostly peacefully until recently. There are comments about gatekeeping in trials and such, and it was basically limited to that until the harder overland discussion became heated. Now the super sweaty types don’t want hard content in instanced areas but instead want it everywhere. Unfortunately that would impact those who don’t play that way. Yes, I understand it is possibly going to be optional harder overland, but it is still creating an environment where those who like to flex can look own on others who don’t.

I would not worry about the comments. Just play the game and enjoy it. There is also a comment about someone “living on your head rent free.”

ZOS_Hadeostry · January 22

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

Magenpie · January 22

@SilverBride *Standing Ovation*

@katanagirl1 *Also Standing Ovation*

SummersetCitizen · January 22

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

“At our core, we are an MMO and want to encourage players to play together, see other people, soft group, etc. so as we were developing a core pillar was to make sure we maintain that playstyle.”

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687966/official-discussion-thread-for-developer-deep-dive-season-zero-s-challenge-difficulty#latest

SilverBride · January 22

That link is interesting in that the more I read it the more I take away from it. Some things I had considered solo play are actually playing together.

When I look at the quoted examples, one by one, I come up with many different scenarios. To me "encouraging players to play together, see other people" can mean things like visiting each other's houses, joining various guilds for housing, trading, role playing, or playing ToT for just a few examples, and not just end game dungeons and trials. Also, to me "soft group" would be things like when we see someone fighting a world boss and jump in and help without a formal group. That is also playing together. So there are many ways to play together that don't involve formal groups.

Also, solo play isn't being discouraged, otherwise we wouldn't be getting solo dungeons.

EDIT: To clarify my thoughts after reading over the quote again.

JemadarofCaerSalis · January 22

I recently (as in the last few months :P) started playing another game, Palia. It is a 'cozy' game, so it isn't all that much like ESO, but what I do like about Palia is that it is meant to be a cooperative experience, but despite that, they don't have instances where you HAVE to play with a group or party.

Instead they have things that do need multiple people, but even then, occasionally you can still find those things only require one person to do them.

When you party up, you can sometimes get double the rewards for your activities.

I personally prefer that type of 'MMO', where everything is 100% soloable, but it can be easier/faster to group up, and the rewards might be occasionally be doubled or larger (not different).

To me, it makes it so that I *want* to group up, not only to be helped with harder content, but also so I can, in turn, help others with harder content when/if they need it. BUT, if I am just not feeling it, I can still do the same content.

For context, in the other game I have been partying up with someone to go bug hunting, because I was looking for a specific bug, they were looking for a different one, so we grouped up.

However, on Tuesday my heater went out, and we had to order a new part for it. Since then, I haven't felt like partying up. So, I didn't. I still got the bug I was looking for without being in a party.

I wish that ESO was a bit more like this, where if I decided that I just didn't feel like partying up, I could still do content, but, if I didn't party up, that content might be more difficult (as it was scaled to party dynamics), and I lose out on the potential for double rewards from the content.

Elvenheart · January 22

twisttop138 wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

Let us not forget that you don't want to socialize or lie about grouping, too. There is only the mad rush to get to the end reward. There is no socializing at all unless it's to tell someone they suck.

I swear to God, where are you guys finding these groups? With these bad men that secretly hate the content, the group concept and lash out and only want the reward. It's like people hear a bad story online and this becomes the essence of what group content means. This is not call of duty on Xbox 360. I have had people rush in random dungeons, sure. Annoying. But it highlights the issue. Random. Strangers. But still. In all the years I've played ESO and the years of MMOs before that, never once have I had an experience that jaded me like some of you guys talk.

I was wondering this too. It may be that there are just so many people playing ESO now that I’m lucky enough to never run into any of these bad actors people are talking about.

El_Borracho · January 22

To summarize this thread:

There are players who like to play with groups to do group content, cooperatively, as intended by group content

There are players who like to play alone, but with other players around, as intended by overland content

There are players who like to play alone, with no other players around, or maybe one other player, as intended by IA

There are players who like to play with groups in PVP, cooperatively, as intended by Cyrodiil and BGs

There are players who like to play alone in PVP, but with other players around, as intended by Imperial City and Cyrodiil

There are players who like to RPG, as it is also intended by overland content

There are players who want to play group content, but alone, so they either solo group dungeons or fruitlessly demand there be solo versions of group dungeons and/or trials.

There are players who want to do group content, with a group, but only if the group does exactly what they want, even if everyone else in the group does not want to play that way, so they are deemed elitist or toxic

There are players who want to do group content, with a group, but only if the group does exactly what they demand, including armor, skills, builds, etc., and are actually elitist and toxic

In my experience, the last 3 groups of players are in the very small minority. The game does not need to change in any way to satisfy these players, who will never be satisfied. As for everyone else, ESO has what you are looking for, but chances are you will also not be fully satisfied because the game is trying to cater to multiple players and their desires. Sounds like every single MMO ever made.

LPapirius · January 22

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

This illustrates why this forum, and some users within it, are often perceived as frustrating and nonproductive.

It's more than just perception. Frustrating and nonproductive are shockingly charitable terms for a lot of what is allowed to go on in this thread and others like it.

KiltMaster · January 23

This is like watching people say they think they should be able to kill a ball group with light attacks from the d ring

Attorneyatlawl · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

The Night Market sounds a lot like how Craglorn was when it was first introduced. That is the reason I left until they changed it. It was the ONLY way to level at the time and there was no solo leveling. .

This is 100% inaccurate. You could solo grind faster in the vet zones faster than tagging along Craglorn boss loops.

Every alliance had good grind spots and I'm your alliance's vr 8/9/10 zones, you'd get full mob xp for up to five ranks below your level.

By the time vr 16 rolled around, everyone got 15 immediately due to accrued xp, and you could easily farm skyreach or imperial city, or finish quests/poi areas for big xp chunks.

Also, if you were good at pvp, that was a fast way to get xp too. Finally, if you duo'd up in the spellscar of Craglorn, that was super easy to get xp from.

SilverBride · January 23

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The Night Market sounds a lot like how Craglorn was when it was first introduced. That is the reason I left until they changed it. It was the ONLY way to level at the time and there was no solo leveling. .

This is 100% inaccurate. You could solo grind faster in the vet zones faster than tagging along Craglorn boss loops.

Every alliance had good grind spots and I'm your alliance's vr 8/9/10 zones, you'd get full mob xp for up to five ranks below your level.

By the time vr 16 rolled around, everyone got 15 immediately due to accrued xp, and you could easily farm skyreach or imperial city, or finish quests/poi areas for big xp chunks.

Also, if you were good at pvp, that was a fast way to get xp too.

I wouldn't have minded Craglorn if it wasn't next to impossible to find a group for questing. If I did find others that wanted to quest most of us were at different stages of the quests and couldn't advance together. So some would get tired of waiting for others to reach where they were in the quest chain and leave. All anyone did then was just make groups and zerg around. Not my idea of a good time.

I don't know if the Night Market has quests or just objectives or how it will work. But I will withhold my judgement until I see it for myself.

Attorneyatlawl · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

This post perfectly describes what this thread is about and what prompted me to start it. Players being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content happens way too often.

Now it is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claim that MMO means grouping.

Solo players belong here, too.

No it doesn't. This is a thread where solo players are expressing their expectation ESO should be something other than what it was created to be.

And the backslapping "liking" of each other going on in this thread is noteworthy. If there is conflict between skilled and unskilled players in ESO it's because of threads like this one.

Where is it written that ESO was created only for group end game players? And this discussion isn't about skills. It's about players being berated for having a solo playstyle and having others try to stop the solo dungeons that are planned.

Virtually all of them are soloable now with the right build and some skill.

SilverBride · January 23

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Where is it written that ESO was created only for group end game players? And this discussion isn't about skills. It's about players being berated for having a solo playstyle and having others try to stop the solo dungeons that are planned.

Virtually all of them are soloable now with the right build and some skill.

I personally have solo'd a lot of normal dungeons, but it is not that easy for a lot of players. Some players have health issues that make it hard for them and some just aren't that great at making builds. Those players will benefit from the solo dungeons coming up.

Speaking of the solo dungeons, I wonder if they will have normal and vet versions?

Soarora · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The Night Market sounds a lot like how Craglorn was when it was first introduced. That is the reason I left until they changed it. It was the ONLY way to level at the time and there was no solo leveling. .

This is 100% inaccurate. You could solo grind faster in the vet zones faster than tagging along Craglorn boss loops.

Every alliance had good grind spots and I'm your alliance's vr 8/9/10 zones, you'd get full mob xp for up to five ranks below your level.

By the time vr 16 rolled around, everyone got 15 immediately due to accrued xp, and you could easily farm skyreach or imperial city, or finish quests/poi areas for big xp chunks.

Also, if you were good at pvp, that was a fast way to get xp too.

I don't know if the Night Market has quests or just objectives or how it will work. But I will withhold my judgement until I see it for myself.

I’ve listed all the quest objectives I’ve encountered here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687908/night-market-quest-list

All of them except for the intro quest in the lobby are repeatable quests or, with the faction quest, it’s styled like a repeatable quest is. Most quests are technically soloable, it just might require running around/through enemies (can go invisible, trash enemies wont see you but bosses will). You can interact with the objectives even if it’s near trash that will kill you, just gotta interact with it quick.

I think ZOS should’ve specified better in the stream that Night Market is group content and the quests are all repeatable quests. It sounded to me like there would be actual questing to be done, which concerned me because I’m not an endgame solo player and questing as a group is a bad experience for me. But no, no actual questing.

SilverBride · January 23

@Sosarea Thanks for the information! It sounds a lot like Endeavor or Golden Pursuit objectives. I wasn't crazy about the idea of it but now I do want to see what's it's all about.

Tra_Lalan · January 23

Some players like to play easy to have fun, some players like to play more challenging content to have fun.

Both types deserve to have the opportuity to have fun in this game, both deserve attention from developers, and both have the same rights to have their content and specific rewards.

Nobody is forcing you to group with other players. If you dont want to do it, just dont.

But if you want a specific ingame reward you have to earn it, the same as other players did. (if I remember correctly the introduction quest unlocks the house)

I personaly dont feel forced to join prog trials, just because I want some cool radiant trifecta mounts. Dont have any of those and that is fine. I dont feel forced to play ToT just to get some missing collectibles earned from fragments, I want them but I don't have them and that is fine. I dont feel forced to play battelgrounds just to collect those 7 style pages that I miss in my collection of fashion, I dont have them and that is fine.
I dont ask developers to get rid of the stuff in game that I dont like doing, I dont ask them to give me those missing rewards and put them into systems I personaly like.
Different player types - different needs - different systems - different rewards. Let others have their fun too. Cheers.

frogthroat · January 23

El_Borracho wrote: »

To summarize this thread:

Excellent summary. However, the last three have also the other side of the coin. I don't say those three don't exist, but instead on top of that there are similar, but opposite player types.

El_Borracho wrote: »

There are players who want to play group content, but alone, so they either solo group dungeons or fruitlessly demand there be solo versions of group dungeons and/or trials.

And there are players who want to play group content, but alone, so they either solo group dungeons, and do not want easier versions of soloable group dungeons, but instead only that those that cannot be soloed will have a mode where it is even in theory possible. But if not, then we solo those that are possible.

El_Borracho wrote: »

There are players who want to do group content, with a group, but only if the group does exactly what they want, even if everyone else in the group does not want to play that way, so they are deemed elitist or toxic

There are players who want to do group content, with a group, but only if the group does exactly what they want, even if everyone else in the group does not want to play that way, so they form their own group of...

El_Borracho wrote: »

There are players who want to do group content, with a group, but only if the group does exactly what they demand, including armor, skills, builds, etc., and are actually elitist and toxic

...players who want to do group content, with a group, but only if the group does exactly what they demand, including armor, skills, builds, etc., and they end up pushing scores with like-minded people.

Nothing wrong with hyper-optimised groups, as long as everyone in the group agrees to it. Want regular casual runs? Join a casual guild. Want hyper-optimised group where every light attack matters for the score? Join a scorepushing prog group. Want something in between? Join a different guild. This game can accommodate all.

twisttop138 · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

That link is interesting in that the more I read it the more I take away from it. Some things I had considered solo play are actually playing together.

When I look at the quoted examples, one by one, I come up with many different scenarios. To me "encouraging players to play together, see other people" can mean things like visiting each other's houses, joining various guilds for housing, trading, role playing, or playing ToT for just a few examples, and not just end game dungeons and trials. Also, to me "soft group" would be things like when we see someone fighting a world boss and jump in and help without a formal group. That is also playing together. So there are many ways to play together that don't involve formal groups.

Also, solo play isn't being discouraged, otherwise we wouldn't be getting solo dungeons.

EDIT: To clarify my thoughts after reading over the quote again.

Yes of course. I'm glad you read that. Playing together is much more than trials. That person you see that needs help with the WB and will share the daily. Our 5 available guilds. There's so much and it should be encouraged. MMOs are social games. Even if you don't do endgame group content.

SummersetCitizen · January 23

I also like the idea of “soft grouping” like when we work on a boss together or world event without having to be formally grouped.

The daily quest aspect sounds nice. I like doing dailies with other people in a casual way.

I’ve even shared daily quests with some folks here who asked for them in zone. 😋

SilverBride · January 23

twisttop138 wrote: »

Yes of course. I'm glad you read that. Playing together is much more than trials. That person you see that needs help with the WB and will share the daily. Our 5 available guilds. There's so much and it should be encouraged. MMOs are social games. Even if you don't do endgame group content.

Maybe the real question here should be "What do you consider playing together?"

ToddIngram · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

ToddIngram · January 23

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

This post perfectly describes what this thread is about and what prompted me to start it. Players being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content happens way too often.

Now it is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claim that MMO means grouping.

Solo players belong here, too.

No it doesn't. This is a thread where solo players are expressing their expectation ESO should be something other than what it was created to be.

And the backslapping "liking" of each other going on in this thread is noteworthy. If there is conflict between skilled and unskilled players in ESO it's because of threads like this one.

Where is it written that ESO was created only for group end game players? And this discussion isn't about skills. It's about players being berated for having a solo playstyle and having others try to stop the solo dungeons that are planned.

Feeling berated is not the same as actually being berated. Even worse, faking having been being berated just to create drama is a whole other problem.

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

This is a well established pattern of behavior for some. Why the moderators promote it is disheartening in the extreme.

Some people will always claim grievances. And if they don't exist IRL, they will invent them.

robwolf666 · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Yes of course. I'm glad you read that. Playing together is much more than trials. That person you see that needs help with the WB and will share the daily. Our 5 available guilds. There's so much and it should be encouraged. MMOs are social games. Even if you don't do endgame group content.

Maybe the real question here should be "What do you consider playing together?"

*shrug* I play games to get away from people, not be around more of them in an online environment, simple as. My game settings reflect it - all chat options are turned off, all challenge options (ToT, Duelling etc) are turned off, Trading requests are turned off, I'm in no Guilds, I don't group, I don't do PvP... I play the game as solo as I possibly can, despite it being online.

Elder Scrolls is why I'm here, nothing more, nothing less. The fact you can passively do things in a group - stumble upon a WB people are fighting already for example - doesn't increase the interest in grouping for me. If I haven't done the WB I'll join in, if I have done it, I move on.

JemadarofCaerSalis · January 23

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

Except they aren't true.

MMO means Massively Multiplayer. Massively multiplayer means lots of players all playing in the same world together. It doesn't mean they have to group up to play, just that there are a LOT of players.

So, that automatically makes the second statement false, because Massively Multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, so therefore MMOs can be the right games for players that want to play solo, but with other players in the game to make the world feel alive. Or players who want to group occasionally but don't want to be forced to group up with others.

While the third statement might be true, the fact is that forcing players to group is only going to create a vastly toxic community, because the players that are forced to group are not going to like being there, and they are often going to resent being forced to group. So, you get players who only want X reward from the dungeon and so don't want to do anything but whatever is required to get that reward. you get players who want to do Y, who are now at odds with the people who want X, because Y means doing something different from what is required to get X. You get players who don't care they just want the final reward as quick as possible, and resent anyone who slows them down even slightly. You get players who want to do all the dungeon content, and are content to take their time, and they resent that they are being dragged along by the players who just want to take the fastest way to get the rewards.

All these people are being grouped together, so now you get people who just quit the game or just quit doing that content, which just leads to fewer people to group with.

Do you *really* think that ESO, if all the solo only players left, would be able to survive? If the players who prefer solo, but don't necessarily mind grouping, but don't want to be forced to group left?

ToddIngram · January 23

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

Except they aren't true.

MMO means Massively Multiplayer. Massively multiplayer means lots of players all playing in the same world together. It doesn't mean they have to group up to play, just that there are a LOT of players.

So, that automatically makes the second statement false, because Massively Multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, so therefore MMOs can be the right games for players that want to play solo, but with other players in the game to make the world feel alive. Or players who want to group occasionally but don't want to be forced to group up with others.

While the third statement might be true, the fact is that forcing players to group is only going to create a vastly toxic community, because the players that are forced to group are not going to like being there, and they are often going to resent being forced to group. So, you get players who only want X reward from the dungeon and so don't want to do anything but whatever is required to get that reward. you get players who want to do Y, who are now at odds with the people who want X, because Y means doing something different from what is required to get X. You get players who don't care they just want the final reward as quick as possible, and resent anyone who slows them down even slightly. You get players who want to do all the dungeon content, and are content to take their time, and they resent that they are being dragged along by the players who just want to take the fastest way to get the rewards.

All these people are being grouped together, so now you get people who just quit the game or just quit doing that content, which just leads to fewer people to group with.

Do you *really* think that ESO, if all the solo only players left, would be able to survive? If the players who prefer solo, but don't necessarily mind grouping, but don't want to be forced to group left?

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is proving to be unsustainable. MMO's die when there is no focus on end game group activities.