MMO does NOT mean Grouping

Angnos · January 22

I think this forum post is pretty funny after they released the Night Market on the PTS, especially since it seems that you have to group up to clear content there. Group play is important for this game and should be used more. There are other games with better combat, graphics, and stories than ESO, but not many games have a community like ESO’s. One that organizes events and trials in their free time.

That said, there should also be a place for solo players in this game. I just think the balance has been off for some time now. ESO has focused too much on solo casual players, making the game easier through power creep and, as a result, making many in-game rewards feel meaningless. So I hope the Night Market brings a change and that we focus a bit more on group play!

SilverBride · January 22

The Night Market sounds a lot like how Craglorn was when it was first introduced. That is the reason I left until they changed it. It was the ONLY way to level at the time and there was no solo leveling.

I'm all for them adding group content, but not forced group content. And gating a house, which is solo content, behind doing very difficult unsoloable content sounds like forcing to me.

What if great PvP rewards or trial sets were gated behind having to decorate a house, or win so many games of ToT? Would that sound appropriate? The rewards should require the same type of content to receive them. Not force players into content that isn't even relevant to the rewards.

Iriidius · January 22

Lucasl402 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

All of those statements are true.

This thread just goes to show that the solo's are the most catered too but still not happy.

Solo players are not the victims the posters in this thread make themselves out to be. ESO caters primarily to solo players, not the other way around. I'm not understanding why the solo community is so unhappy and feeling so victimized when they're the most catered too already.

And if you don't have the skills to complete group content or work with others in a group, you don't deserve the rewards that go with those activities.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

You're right.

When is demanding a passable performance considered toxic, and the virtue of cooperation seen as oppressive? Most of the players I've encountered in groups won't even bother commenting on your performance if you're competent. The only people who really anger group members are those who are incompetent and arrogant. When someone points out that another member's DPS is insufficient, these incompetent players get agitated, as if we're all framing them, when in reality their DPS might be less than 10% (in four-man dungeon).

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

twisttop138 · January 22

Castagere wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

I 100 % agree with this. Forced grouping started way back in those first gen. mmo's. My first mmo in 2001 was Anarchy Online. How they get you to group is offer some special reward you can only get by grouping. All mmos have been doing this ever since. And the reward would be some gear that's better than what you get from solo play. Now, if they took out that reward system, no one would group. So they did this to force group play. Today, you join a group, and what happens? It's a mad rush to the end for the rewards. Take out all the monster sets and rewards, and put them in solo play, and grouping would be dead. If you want the best gear that only benefits group play, then you're hooked

I'm saddened that people have had such a bad experience that this is their outlook on grouping. You make some pretty sweeping generalizations. Like I could say all solo players are crying because they want the best rewards but are too lazy to put in the work. Not a true statement, kinda lumps everyone together with some BS.

Not everyone plays group content for better gear. Better gear allows you to do harder content. Also you're describing random dungeon complaints and saying this is all of grouping. I play in organized groups, to have a good time with friends. Laugh, joke and maybe accomplish something. Not everyone, even in random dungeons make a "mad dash" to the finish. If this is happening to you, I would suggest making a group with clear goals. In guild we put together many different types of runs. Seeing the story of a dungeon being one of them. Having different types of content for different players is important. Variety in content is what makes ESO successful. Going from puttering around my housing project, to doing a couple dailies to helping guildies with a WB and then it's raid time and then relax with some questing. Yes. Many people who group for dungeons and trials do much more. As for grouping, Zos seems to agree. The new night market, from pts reports is challenging. Very tough to solo and Zos said it's tuned that way to encourage working together.

SilverBride · January 22

Iriidius wrote: »

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

This post perfectly describes what this thread is about and what prompted me to start it. Players being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content happens way too often.

Now it is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claim that MMO means grouping.

Solo players belong here, too.

LPapirius · January 22

robwolf666 wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JBNimble wrote: »

If you don't want content exclusively designed for groups to be in your game, maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you.

That isn't the issue. The issue is being told that if we don't participate in group dungeons and would like a solo version, too then maybe we shouldn't play an MMO. THAT is wrong.

I would never say that. I would say that an MMO should focus on group activities.

All are welcome, but group focus should be prioritized over solo play.

Otherwise, we are all paying for an overpriced, subscription RPG where others are playing in parallel but not cooperatively.

Maybe in any other generic MMO, but in this case, not when it's based on an existing franchise, Elder Scrolls, which has always been solo player focused. ES fans would expect this (solo play) to be featured in an ES game, even an online one.

Not really. ESO is produced by ZOS. Elder Scrolls games are produced by Bethesda. ESO isn't even created by the same developer that produces Elder Scrolls games.

ESO is not the last in a line of Elder Scrolls games. It's a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme.

Why do all the solo players in this thread seem to think they're being victimized anyway? I think it begins with the misunderstanding pointed out in my first sentence of this post. ESO is not the last in a line of Elder Scrolls games. ESO is a stand alone MMO and in MMO's end game content is group content. So people need to adjust their expectations accordingly.

To complete group content you have to have a minimum of social skills and either know the mechanics or have a willingless to put in the time to listen, learn and get to where you can complete the content.

As others have stated, no effort should result in no rewards. There should be no rewards for a story mode dungeon. Rewards should scale with effort.

The way the solo only players are propping each other up in this thread tells me that there is little future for ESO. Ya'll want the game homogenized into obscurity and blandness that anyone can play.

Soarora · January 22

SilverBride wrote: »

The Night Market sounds a lot like how Craglorn was when it was first introduced. That is the reason I left until they changed it. It was the ONLY way to level at the time and there was no solo leveling.

I'm all for them adding group content, but not forced group content. And gating a house, which is solo content, behind doing very difficult unsoloable content sounds like forcing to me.

What if great PvP rewards or trial sets were gated behind having to decorate a house, or win so many games of ToT? Would that sound appropriate? The rewards should require the same type of content to receive them. Not force players into content that isn't even relevant to the rewards.

@SilverBride I’ve done Night Market on PTS and it’s not like Craglorn in that there’s no real questing. Every quest except the intro quest (which takes place entirely in the lobby and is also how you unlock the house) is styled like daily quests. I’d describe Night Market more as late arc IA if IA was small group content. The feedback thread has people who claim they’ve soloed Night Market fine on traditional solo builds (tanky, such as for late arc IA).

The wings of the house require doing the group content but boss spawn locations are not randomized, so they can be camped (getting to them isn’t hard, invisibility works against the trash enemies and you can also just run around most of them). There’s also events that happen every so often with a timer in the menu counting down to when the event starts— great meeting point, saw like 13 people there when the maximum I saw around the districts was like 8.

That said, just the main area of the house has a lot of building potential. I don’t know what the wings look like yet but I don’t think they’ll be necessary to unlock. Just the main area seems like it’d be easy to add 2 floors to and have it fit in well. I think the way they added this house is fine. I’m confident people will make great builds without the need for the unlockable wings and truly, I wouldn’t mind more houses like this from other sources (like do the cyrodiil intro quest and get a house that has higher unlocks for PvP achievements or do the ToT intro house and get a house that has higher unlocks for ToT achievements, etc.).
Edit: I really like the legacy of the dragonborn museum mod, would be pretty cool to have a house like that, shaped by your achievements as a reflection of who you are.

LPapirius · January 22

robwolf666 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Hot take: People who refuse to socialize should not be facilitated in MMORPGs. You should be able to play part of the game but it's not a reasonable expectation for a player to go into a MMORPG and expect everything outside of dungeons and raids to be catered to them.

It's not catered to solo players, it's catered to Elder Scrolls fans... who just happen to come from a solo player focused franchise.

Besides, I suspect ZOS knows they would lose far more players by trying to "force" them to do content they have no interest in than they would by annoying players who group/PvP by adding soloable dungeons etc.

Again, ESO is not the last in a long line of Elder Scrolls games. It's not even produced by the same company. ESO is a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

LPapirius · January 22

SilverBride wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

This post perfectly describes what this thread is about and what prompted me to start it. Players being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content happens way too often.

Now it is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claim that MMO means grouping.

Solo players belong here, too.

No it doesn't. This is a thread where solo players are expressing their expectation ESO should be something other than what it was created to be.

And the backslapping "liking" of each other going on in this thread is noteworthy. If there is conflict between skilled and unskilled players in ESO it's because of the attitudes of some players in threads like this one.

robwolf666 · January 22

twisttop138 wrote: »

I play in organized groups, to have a good time with friends. Laugh, joke and maybe accomplish something. Not everyone, even in random dungeons make a "mad dash" to the finish.

The "mad dash" was always my experience when I tried group content ages ago, it didn't matter whether it was organised or not. The organised one's were always about the main group of "friends" first, and if you weren't in the inner circle, they didn't give a monkeys whether you wanted to do the quest. Randoms were always a free for all, same consequence.

In the end I gave up trying to find groups and did the ones I could solo - some you can't because of progress blockers due to needing more than one player to do something, like open a door (two people standing on plates etc), or the bosses in particular were too difficult because of how their attacks worked.

I gave up on the rest... until now. So, if ZOS do intend to make more dungeons soloable, I'm happy about it.

Ultimately it was the same in PvP where groups were concerned, just in a different way, and also why I stopped doing it.

twisttop138 · January 22

Castagere wrote: »

Let us not forget that you don't want to socialize or lie about grouping, too. There is only the mad rush to get to the end reward. There is no socializing at all unless it's to tell someone they suck.

I swear to God, where are you guys finding these groups? With these bad men that secretly hate the content, the group concept and lash out and only want the reward. It's like people hear a bad story online and this becomes the essence of what group content means. This is not call of duty on Xbox 360. I have had people rush in random dungeons, sure. Annoying. But it highlights the issue. Random. Strangers. But still. In all the years I've played ESO and the years of MMOs before that, never once have I had an experience that jaded me like some of you guys talk.

robwolf666 · January 22

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Hot take: People who refuse to socialize should not be facilitated in MMORPGs. You should be able to play part of the game but it's not a reasonable expectation for a player to go into a MMORPG and expect everything outside of dungeons and raids to be catered to them.

It's not catered to solo players, it's catered to Elder Scrolls fans... who just happen to come from a solo player focused franchise.

Besides, I suspect ZOS knows they would lose far more players by trying to "force" them to do content they have no interest in than they would by annoying players who group/PvP by adding soloable dungeons etc.

Again, ESO is not the last in a long line of Elder Scrolls games. It's not even produced by the same company. ESO is a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sometimes I wonder how many times I have to say that ESO wouldn't exist without Elder Scrolls - it's based on it ffs. 🙄

SilverBride · January 22

Soarora wrote: »

@SilverBride I’ve done Night Market on PTS and it’s not like Craglorn in that there’s no real questing. Every quest except the intro quest (which takes place entirely in the lobby and is also how you unlock the house) is styled like daily quests. I’d describe Night Market more as late arc IA if IA was small group content. The feedback thread has people who claim they’ve soloed Night Market fine on traditional solo builds (tanky, such as for late arc IA).

The wings of the house require doing the group content but boss spawn locations are not randomized, so they can be camped (getting to them isn’t hard, invisibility works against the trash enemies and you can also just run around most of them). There’s also events that happen every so often with a timer in the menu counting down to when the event starts— great meeting point, saw like 13 people there when the maximum I saw around the districts was like 8.

That said, just the main area of the house has a lot of building potential. I don’t know what the wings look like yet but I don’t think they’ll be necessary to unlock. Just the main area seems like it’d be easy to add 2 floors to and have it fit in well. I think the way they added this house is fine. I’m confident people will make great builds without the need for the unlockable wings and truly, I wouldn’t mind more houses like this from other sources (like do the cyrodiil intro quest and get a house that has higher unlocks for PvP achievements or do the ToT intro house and get a house that has higher unlocks for ToT achievements, etc.).
Edit: I really like the legacy of the dragonborn museum mod, would be pretty cool to have a house like that, shaped by your achievements as a reflection of who you are.

Thanks for clarifying!

Soarora · January 22

twisttop138 wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

Let us not forget that you don't want to socialize or lie about grouping, too. There is only the mad rush to get to the end reward. There is no socializing at all unless it's to tell someone they suck.

I swear to God, where are you guys finding these groups? With these bad men that secretly hate the content, the group concept and lash out and only want the reward. It's like people hear a bad story online and this becomes the essence of what group content means. This is not call of duty on Xbox 360. I have had people rush in random dungeons, sure. Annoying. But it highlights the issue. Random. Strangers. But still. In all the years I've played ESO and the years of MMOs before that, never once have I had an experience that jaded me like some of you guys talk.

I almost never have the speedrunning problem with the veteran dungeon queue and my guild has always been a good place for me (I joined with at most a challenger). People who are mean with no intent to help I just internally laugh at because most of the time they’re people who think they’re better than they are.

LPapirius · January 22

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Hot take: People who refuse to socialize should not be facilitated in MMORPGs. You should be able to play part of the game but it's not a reasonable expectation for a player to go into a MMORPG and expect everything outside of dungeons and raids to be catered to them.

It's not catered to solo players, it's catered to Elder Scrolls fans... who just happen to come from a solo player focused franchise.

Besides, I suspect ZOS knows they would lose far more players by trying to "force" them to do content they have no interest in than they would by annoying players who group/PvP by adding soloable dungeons etc.

Again, ESO is not the last in a long line of Elder Scrolls games. It's not even produced by the same company. ESO is a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sometimes I wonder how many times I have to say that ESO wouldn't exist without Elder Scrolls - it's based on it ffs. 🙄

Why not? They could have went with any theme they wanted and ESO would just have a different acronym with all the same content. The only difference would be the skins and the scenery.

Elder Scrolls enthusiasts aren't what's keeping ESO alive. It's the uniqueness of ESO that's keeping it alive. ....until all that is unique about ESO is nerfed to be just like every other game out there anyway.

SilverBride · January 22

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

This post perfectly describes what this thread is about and what prompted me to start it. Players being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content happens way too often.

Now it is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claim that MMO means grouping.

Solo players belong here, too.

No it doesn't. This is a thread where solo players are expressing their expectation ESO should be something other than what it was created to be.

And the backslapping "liking" of each other going on in this thread is noteworthy. If there is conflict between skilled and unskilled players in ESO it's because of threads like this one.

Where is it written that ESO was created only for group end game players? And this discussion isn't about skills. It's about players being berated for having a solo playstyle and having others try to stop the solo dungeons that are planned.

robwolf666 · January 22

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Hot take: People who refuse to socialize should not be facilitated in MMORPGs. You should be able to play part of the game but it's not a reasonable expectation for a player to go into a MMORPG and expect everything outside of dungeons and raids to be catered to them.

It's not catered to solo players, it's catered to Elder Scrolls fans... who just happen to come from a solo player focused franchise.

Besides, I suspect ZOS knows they would lose far more players by trying to "force" them to do content they have no interest in than they would by annoying players who group/PvP by adding soloable dungeons etc.

Again, ESO is not the last in a long line of Elder Scrolls games. It's not even produced by the same company. ESO is a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sometimes I wonder how many times I have to say that ESO wouldn't exist without Elder Scrolls - it's based on it ffs. 🙄

Why not? They could have went with any theme they wanted and ESO would just have a different acronym with all the same content. The only difference would be the skins and the scenery.

Elder Scrolls enthusiasts aren't what's keeping ESO alive. It's the uniqueness of ESO that's keeping it alive. ....until all that is unique about ESO is nerfed to be just like every other game out there anyway.

I see... so, you're saying if Elder Scrolls hadn't have already existed, ZOS would've still, somehow, landed on ESO as it is, with all it's lore etc? Pray, how? It would, at best, have been just another generic fantasy MMO, nothing more.

And, you can bet your ass it's Elder Scrolls fans keeping it alive... MMO fans tend to be a little fickle and will happily jump ship for something new, they've proven it many times. Not all maybe, but a lot.

LPapirius · January 22

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Hot take: People who refuse to socialize should not be facilitated in MMORPGs. You should be able to play part of the game but it's not a reasonable expectation for a player to go into a MMORPG and expect everything outside of dungeons and raids to be catered to them.

It's not catered to solo players, it's catered to Elder Scrolls fans... who just happen to come from a solo player focused franchise.

Besides, I suspect ZOS knows they would lose far more players by trying to "force" them to do content they have no interest in than they would by annoying players who group/PvP by adding soloable dungeons etc.

Again, ESO is not the last in a long line of Elder Scrolls games. It's not even produced by the same company. ESO is a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sometimes I wonder how many times I have to say that ESO wouldn't exist without Elder Scrolls - it's based on it ffs. 🙄

Why not? They could have went with any theme they wanted and ESO would just have a different acronym with all the same content. The only difference would be the skins and the scenery.

Elder Scrolls enthusiasts aren't what's keeping ESO alive. It's the uniqueness of ESO that's keeping it alive. ....until all that is unique about ESO is nerfed to be just like every other game out there anyway.

I see... so, you're saying if Elder Scrolls hadn't have already existed, ZOS would've still, somehow, landed on ESO as it is, with all it's lore etc? Pray, how? It would, at best, have been just another generic fantasy MMO, nothing more.

And, you can bet your ass it's Elder Scrolls fans keeping it alive... MMO fans tend to be a little fickle and will happily jump ship for something new, they've proven it many times. Not all maybe, but a lot.

I'm not an Elder Scrolls fan. I've paid more than $5,000 to play ESO and have been here since 2014. I couldn't care less about "the lore". It's meaningless. I care about the game.

LPapirius · January 22

SilverBride wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

This post perfectly describes what this thread is about and what prompted me to start it. Players being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content happens way too often.

Now it is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claim that MMO means grouping.

Solo players belong here, too.

No it doesn't. This is a thread where solo players are expressing their expectation ESO should be something other than what it was created to be.

And the backslapping "liking" of each other going on in this thread is noteworthy. If there is conflict between skilled and unskilled players in ESO it's because of threads like this one.

Where is it written that ESO was created only for group end game players? And this discussion isn't about skills. It's about players being berated for having a solo playstyle and having others try to stop the solo dungeons that are planned.

Feeling berated is not the same as actually being berated. Even worse, faking having been being berated just to create drama is a whole other problem.

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

twisttop138 · January 22

robwolf666 wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

I play in organized groups, to have a good time with friends. Laugh, joke and maybe accomplish something. Not everyone, even in random dungeons make a "mad dash" to the finish.

The "mad dash" was always my experience when I tried group content ages ago, it didn't matter whether it was organised or not. The organised one's were always about the main group of "friends" first, and if you weren't in the inner circle, they didn't give a monkeys whether you wanted to do the quest. Randoms were always a free for all, same consequence.

In the end I gave up trying to find groups and did the ones I could solo - some you can't because of progress blockers due to needing more than one player to do something, like open a door (two people standing on plates etc), or the bosses in particular were too difficult because of how their attacks worked.

I gave up on the rest... until now. So, if ZOS do intend to make more dungeons soloable, I'm happy about it.

Ultimately it was the same in PvP where groups were concerned, just in a different way, and also why I stopped doing it.

I'm sad to hear that. I tend to not stay long in guilds that act that way. It's led to many guild changes over the years but I couldn't be happier now where I am.

I guess it's hard for me to wrap my head around these horror stories. My decades in MMOs have been filled with fun and friends and it's changed the way I see gaming. My experience, every week in ESO, is twice a week we teach vet dungeon mechanics to guild members who sign up. Twice a week we teach vet trials to anyone who wants to sign up. No parse or gear requirements. I also have prog and a main raid team and couldn't be happier.

That said, I have no existential crisis with solo dungeons being added to the game. I guess that's what this thread is about, although that wasn't made clear in the op. This seems to get people heated but there's no need. The game has solo and group content and will continue, probably, to have both. I think at the end of the day we all love the game, that's our common ground.

robwolf666 · January 22

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Hot take: People who refuse to socialize should not be facilitated in MMORPGs. You should be able to play part of the game but it's not a reasonable expectation for a player to go into a MMORPG and expect everything outside of dungeons and raids to be catered to them.

It's not catered to solo players, it's catered to Elder Scrolls fans... who just happen to come from a solo player focused franchise.

Besides, I suspect ZOS knows they would lose far more players by trying to "force" them to do content they have no interest in than they would by annoying players who group/PvP by adding soloable dungeons etc.

Again, ESO is not the last in a long line of Elder Scrolls games. It's not even produced by the same company. ESO is a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sometimes I wonder how many times I have to say that ESO wouldn't exist without Elder Scrolls - it's based on it ffs. 🙄

Why not? They could have went with any theme they wanted and ESO would just have a different acronym with all the same content. The only difference would be the skins and the scenery.

Elder Scrolls enthusiasts aren't what's keeping ESO alive. It's the uniqueness of ESO that's keeping it alive. ....until all that is unique about ESO is nerfed to be just like every other game out there anyway.

I see... so, you're saying if Elder Scrolls hadn't have already existed, ZOS would've still, somehow, landed on ESO as it is, with all it's lore etc? Pray, how? It would, at best, have been just another generic fantasy MMO, nothing more.

And, you can bet your ass it's Elder Scrolls fans keeping it alive... MMO fans tend to be a little fickle and will happily jump ship for something new, they've proven it many times. Not all maybe, but a lot.

I'm not an Elder Scrolls fan. I've paid more than $5,000 to play ESO and have been here since 2014. I couldn't care less about "the lore". It's meaningless. I care about the game.

Explains everything.

SilverBride · January 22

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

Soarora · January 22

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

Considering it was like 3 or 4 people lobbying against solo dungeons and their argument was basically just “endgame is all group content” (which is false) and “this will kill the queue” (which isn’t endgame, and also people shouldn’t be miserable in the queue), I would expect ZOS to just not listen to them.

Edit: I even asked for one of them to walk me through the pipeline of how solo dungeons will harm endgame dungeons and no one responded to me. So…

LPapirius · January 22

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Hot take: People who refuse to socialize should not be facilitated in MMORPGs. You should be able to play part of the game but it's not a reasonable expectation for a player to go into a MMORPG and expect everything outside of dungeons and raids to be catered to them.

It's not catered to solo players, it's catered to Elder Scrolls fans... who just happen to come from a solo player focused franchise.

Besides, I suspect ZOS knows they would lose far more players by trying to "force" them to do content they have no interest in than they would by annoying players who group/PvP by adding soloable dungeons etc.

Again, ESO is not the last in a long line of Elder Scrolls games. It's not even produced by the same company. ESO is a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sometimes I wonder how many times I have to say that ESO wouldn't exist without Elder Scrolls - it's based on it ffs. 🙄

Why not? They could have went with any theme they wanted and ESO would just have a different acronym with all the same content. The only difference would be the skins and the scenery.

Elder Scrolls enthusiasts aren't what's keeping ESO alive. It's the uniqueness of ESO that's keeping it alive. ....until all that is unique about ESO is nerfed to be just like every other game out there anyway.

I see... so, you're saying if Elder Scrolls hadn't have already existed, ZOS would've still, somehow, landed on ESO as it is, with all it's lore etc? Pray, how? It would, at best, have been just another generic fantasy MMO, nothing more.

And, you can bet your ass it's Elder Scrolls fans keeping it alive... MMO fans tend to be a little fickle and will happily jump ship for something new, they've proven it many times. Not all maybe, but a lot.

I'm not an Elder Scrolls fan. I've paid more than $5,000 to play ESO and have been here since 2014. I couldn't care less about "the lore". It's meaningless. I care about the game.

Explains everything.

It explains that it's not just Elder Scrolls fans paying the bills for ZOS, which was or is your thinking.

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Hot take: People who refuse to socialize should not be facilitated in MMORPGs. You should be able to play part of the game but it's not a reasonable expectation for a player to go into a MMORPG and expect everything outside of dungeons and raids to be catered to them.

It's not catered to solo players, it's catered to Elder Scrolls fans... who just happen to come from a solo player focused franchise.

Besides, I suspect ZOS knows they would lose far more players by trying to "force" them to do content they have no interest in than they would by annoying players who group/PvP by adding soloable dungeons etc.

Again, ESO is not the last in a long line of Elder Scrolls games. It's not even produced by the same company. ESO is a stand alone MMO with an Elder Scrolls theme. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sometimes I wonder how many times I have to say that ESO wouldn't exist without Elder Scrolls - it's based on it ffs. 🙄

Why not? They could have went with any theme they wanted and ESO would just have a different acronym with all the same content. The only difference would be the skins and the scenery.

Elder Scrolls enthusiasts aren't what's keeping ESO alive. It's the uniqueness of ESO that's keeping it alive. ....until all that is unique about ESO is nerfed to be just like every other game out there anyway.

I see... so, you're saying if Elder Scrolls hadn't have already existed, ZOS would've still, somehow, landed on ESO as it is, with all it's lore etc? Pray, how? It would, at best, have been just another generic fantasy MMO, nothing more.

And, you can bet your ass it's Elder Scrolls fans keeping it alive... MMO fans tend to be a little fickle and will happily jump ship for something new, they've proven it many times. Not all maybe, but a lot.

Soarora · January 22

<snipped removed quote>

I think the entire context of what’s happening here is interesting and important for understanding how on-edge both solo and group players are right now. (Note also, solo and group aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.)

This all started with the “no more dungeons?” thread, in which group players were distressed about the lack of group content. In this thread, solo players came in and made remarks such as saying no more new dungeons should be added.

Then the “solo dungeons will kill the mmo” thread, in which a group player (seemingly the dungeon queue, not premades) claims that solo dungeons will harm dungeon endgame. In this thread, group players came in and made remarks that solo players should not be catered to and shouldn’t play the game if they don’t want to play in groups.

Then we have this thread where solo players are distressed about the “solo dungeons will kill the mmo” thread.

And then the Night Market Feedback thread where group players and some solo players are generally pleased with the difficulty (or wish it was more involved) while quester solo players are upset about how unsoloable it is for them.

Group players are afraid the dungeon queue will be harmed by solo dungeons and that Night Market will be nerfed.
Solo players feel victimized and are afraid solo dungeons will be taken away.

We’re even, really. We’re both just scared.

twisttop138 · January 22

Soarora wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

You ARE NOT being victimized here.

I think the entire context of what’s happening here is interesting and important for understanding how on-edge both solo and group players are right now. (Note also, solo and group aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.)

This all started with the “no more dungeons?” thread, in which group players were distressed about the lack of group content. In this thread, solo players came in and made remarks such as saying no more new dungeons should be added.

Then the “solo dungeons will kill the mmo” thread, in which a group player (seemingly the dungeon queue, not premades) claims that solo dungeons will harm dungeon endgame. In this thread, group players came in and made remarks that solo players should not be catered to and shouldn’t play the game if they don’t want to play in groups.

Then we have this thread where solo players are distressed about the “solo dungeons will kill the mmo” thread.

And then the Night Market Feedback thread where group players and some solo players are generally pleased with the difficulty (or wish it was more involved) while quester solo players are upset about how unsoloable it is for them.

Group players are afraid the dungeon queue will be harmed by solo dungeons and that Night Market will be nerfed.
Solo players feel victimized and are afraid solo dungeons will be taken away.

We’re even, really. We’re both just scared.

Damn. This is pretty blunt. Also correct. With content becoming less and less every year and now this huge switch up with even less content, people are scared the game they love may no longer be for them. This has caused lashing out. Not helped by threads like this, made as a way to gang bang on another thread they didn't like. This is a game everyone. An escape from the problems of the world. It's not serious. It's not worth stress and heartache and anger. Maybe we should take a step back and try to find that common ground.

AScarlato · January 22

Soarora wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

You ARE NOT being victimized here.

I think the entire context of what’s happening here is interesting and important for understanding how on-edge both solo and group players are right now. (Note also, solo and group aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.)

This all started with the “no more dungeons?” thread, in which group players were distressed about the lack of group content. In this thread, solo players came in and made remarks such as saying no more new dungeons should be added.

Then the “solo dungeons will kill the mmo” thread, in which a group player (seemingly the dungeon queue, not premades) claims that solo dungeons will harm dungeon endgame. In this thread, group players came in and made remarks that solo players should not be catered to and shouldn’t play the game if they don’t want to play in groups.

Then we have this thread where solo players are distressed about the “solo dungeons will kill the mmo” thread.

And then the Night Market Feedback thread where group players and some solo players are generally pleased with the difficulty (or wish it was more involved) while quester solo players are upset about how unsoloable it is for them.

Group players are afraid the dungeon queue will be harmed by solo dungeons and that Night Market will be nerfed.
Solo players feel victimized and are afraid solo dungeons will be taken away.

We’re even, really. We’re both just scared.

And this all comes from content scarcity of late. I've been around the forums for 6 years now and I don't remember this level of drama over the split in content, since we always got new solo quests, group dungeons, and trials every year.

It's possible I just wasn't paying much attention and missed it in the past, but it seems worse now.

SilverBride · January 22

Soarora wrote: »

Group players are afraid the dungeon queue will be harmed by solo dungeons and that Night Market will be nerfed.
Solo players feel victimized and are afraid solo dungeons will be taken away.

We’re even, really. We’re both just scared.

The end game vs solo playstyles debate has been going on a long time. It has just escalated with the upcoming changes. But no matter what our concerns are it does not justify devolving to the point of personally attacking other posters.

AScarlato · January 22

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Group players are afraid the dungeon queue will be harmed by solo dungeons and that Night Market will be nerfed.
Solo players feel victimized and are afraid solo dungeons will be taken away.

We’re even, really. We’re both just scared.

The end game vs solo playstyles debate has been going on a long time. It has just escalated with the upcoming changes. But no matter what our concerns are it does not justify devolving to the point of personally attacking other posters.

I agree, but it also hasn't risen to needing the devs to take a side in the discussion. ESO has always strived to offer varied content for all playstyles so I don't see how they need to come to this thread to clarify that no, endgame grouping is not the only viable playstyle -.-

robwolf666 · January 22

Soarora wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

You ARE NOT being victimized here.

I think the entire context of what’s happening here is interesting and important for understanding how on-edge both solo and group players are right now. (Note also, solo and group aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.)

This all started with the “no more dungeons?” thread, in which group players were distressed about the lack of group content. In this thread, solo players came in and made remarks such as saying no more new dungeons should be added.

Then the “solo dungeons will kill the mmo” thread, in which a group player (seemingly the dungeon queue, not premades) claims that solo dungeons will harm dungeon endgame. In this thread, group players came in and made remarks that solo players should not be catered to and shouldn’t play the game if they don’t want to play in groups.

Then we have this thread where solo players are distressed about the “solo dungeons will kill the mmo” thread.

And then the Night Market Feedback thread where group players and some solo players are generally pleased with the difficulty (or wish it was more involved) while quester solo players are upset about how unsoloable it is for them.

Group players are afraid the dungeon queue will be harmed by solo dungeons and that Night Market will be nerfed.
Solo players feel victimized and are afraid solo dungeons will be taken away.

We’re even, really. We’re both just scared.

I'm actually neither worried or scared about the solo future of the game, as long as ZOS stays true to it's Elder Scrolls roots, it'll do fine going forward.

I'm just bemused, and a little amused, by some takes on the game, what it's about, and how it should be played.