I think there's a bigger issue here: we're not getting dungeons this year, but we are getting solo content. Understandably this makes the Dungeons community feel like they're getting shafted.

Sure, there's "group" content coming this year in the form of the Night Market... but even based on what Finn's told us, it's less of an instanced thing, and more of a thing that solo players can still play provided they zerg surf. So even though it's designed for groups, it's still not something that requires grouping.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail (because you will see it soon on PTS), Night Market is a brand new type of zone that started with a group focus. There are activities solo players can do but they will be hard pressed to get to these activities without at least following groups of players around.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

The zone is open but with a smaller player cap and much harder content. We don’t force you to group to enter but to do the content, you will want to.

There's also a trial coming again... but something that a lot of people who don't do high-level group PvE don't understand is that there is surprisingly little overlap between the Dungeons crowd and the Trials crowd. Sure, both do both types of content primarily to get gear, but most people find one fun and the other a slog. A lot of that is because Trials have gotten to the point where their HMs are built around the top 1% of the top 1%, so they require hyperoptimization (and then that requirement bleeds down to the not-as-good-as-they-think-they-are raid leads in standard vets thinking that there is only one way to do the content and mandating setups), while Dungeons don't allow groups to have enough people to get every buff in the game, but that actually means players have more freedom on which characters to bring because there's no need to hyperoptimize there.

We did get an interview from the new leadership where Nick said

It is highly likely that dungeons are going to be in the future, but this year, as we invest more in the core experience of the game, this was one of those trade-offs that we had to make.

And yet even though the team is cutting Dungeons, they're still trying to reassure us that soloists are still getting stories, even if they end up in basegame zones. Furthermore, they're adding the soloist mode to two dungeons, one of which is already soloable easily (the other might need a bit of finessing to get past the interruptables on Mellitus and Mylenne, but it has been soloed). That alone does make it feel like there's an air of "we're not giving you new stuff, and we're even going to change your stuff out from under you over time."

Because of the glaring omission of Dungeons, we even had a "we're not getting new dungeons?" thread go up, and there are a non-insignificant number of people coming in with a "good, this game should be solo only!" vibe. Understandably, that sounds a little toxic from soloists to Dungeoners. So let's not pretend that there is only toxicity from the group players; you're only seeing the thread right now that's toxic in one direction and not in the other.

Is the conversion of dungeons to solo likely to change much? Probably not, since there are enough people who don't like to PuG (I'm one of them; I'm not touching PuGs with a 10 foot pole) that that's not going to change the queue. But the vibes of the reveal trying to downplay group content do make it feel like ESO might be moving toward favoring follow-the-zerg play and hyperoptimized play-as-you-are-forced-to trials, which leaves that middle community out in the dust.

Furthermore, there are a lot of arguments here that are catastrophizing the idea of group content: "if I group, I have to PuG so I can't do the story." Sure, you're not going to get to do the story in a PuG, that's a given. But PuGging is not the only option. For anyone who's interested in the lore, I'd really really suggest joining a guild of people who think and feel the same way you do. I can assure you that there are social guilds out there who do not require Discord (but have it if you would like), and are interested in lore. And that way, you have people around who would be interested in running Dungeons for the story.
I suggest checking out UESP's guild (yes, based on the unofficial wiki that Todd actually keeps a personal backup of because they actually do reference it) or the Loreseekers (who, as the name implies, are interested in the lore of the game and getting stories) and joining one of those (they have representation on most platforms). They'll allow you to still play mostly solo, but then be able to do group content in a manner you are interested in.
I joined the UESP guild a bit after I joined ESO, and it's still my first guild slot. And with them, I've learned how to do the dungeons, and now it's my favorite part of the game. My dungeon group is still people in that guild. Sure, sometimes there's guild chatter that I don't want to see, so I just have a tab to mute the guild chat when I'm in the zone. But it does mean I have people around if I want to do group content or help others with that. I can also say that most of those social guilds will absolutely do lore-runs of any new content (yes, even the trials!) where they stop to listen to all dialogue and call out where all of the lorebooks are so that everyone can experience the content in exactly the way you want.

I will say that there are people out there who want to do the content the same way you do. Heck, look at how many people here are interested in doing the content in a low-stress environment and getting to experience the story. The only thing is you can't expect that to fall into your lap. It does require a bit of reaching out to find that community for you. But they do exist.

reazea wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

Some people seem to forget the history of Elder Scrolls.

ESO attracted peeple from the solo playing community to it because of this.

Solo dungeons are more in keeping with its original setup.

I am not saying not to have group content just the more diveerse a game is the better it is off for it.

The original set up is to require grouping for dungeons.

I meant the original setup of The Elder Scrolls.

ESO is not part of the Elder Scrolls series of games. ESO is only elder scrolls themed. What other Elder Scrolls game is an MMO? (right, none, ever) ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that creates Elder Scrolls games.

This push by the casuals that never play any group content when all end game activities are group content is asking for the game to be made into something it was never intended to be.

[snip]

Again, you seem to misunderstand my point.

I am not saying (nor have ever said in any of my posts on this thread) that either is right or wrong.

The point I am making is that a lot of players came from those games and play solo.
[edited to remove quote]

I don't understand why so many players of this game are dead set on kneecapping it. A lot of people have been literally begging for solo dungeons and/or story mode for years and years. And just because a player is not into group content, that doesn't necessarily make them casual. They may be super hardcore about playing ESO but just into different activities than endgame PVE group content.

EDIT: I think a lot of the fear of this change comes from ESO's shrinking population. The fear is the pool of endgamers who want to group for PVE will dwindle even further. That shrinking population has nothing to do with this change, and stopping this change from happening isn't going to be what fixes it.

Really well written post @tomofhyrule !

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Sure, there's "group" content coming this year in the form of the Night Market... but even based on what Finn's told us, it's less of an instanced thing, and more of a thing that solo players can still play provided they zerg surf. So even though it's designed for groups, it's still not something that requires grouping.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail (because you will see it soon on PTS), Night Market is a brand new type of zone that started with a group focus. There are activities solo players can do but they will be hard pressed to get to these activities without at least following groups of players around.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

The zone is open but with a smaller player cap and much harder content. We don’t force you to group to enter but to do the content, you will want to.

I’ve read the achievements in preparation for next week and, while there does seem to be a dungeoneer-focus to The Night Market (based on the bosses), I’m worried dungeoneers won’t like it. Spoilers of the play loop below:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

There's also a trial coming again... but something that a lot of people who don't do high-level group PvE don't understand is that there is surprisingly little overlap between the Dungeons crowd and the Trials crowd.

I’m not ultra salty about this but I am a few grains of salty that the trial community gets a presumably full trial and a mini trial and we get no actual dungeons. That said, there’s no HM for the Night Market trial (but there is a no death… so…?). I cannot stress it enough that PvE endgame is not a monolith, dungeon endgame and trial endgame are different groups of people. Even people who do both have a preference.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And yet even though the team is cutting Dungeons, they're still trying to reassure us that soloists are still getting stories, even if they end up in basegame zones.

That did weird me out a little. I assumed it was just easier to address both concerns in one message or a misunderstanding of where the story concern was coming from (another thread). Another reason I’m so vocal about dungeons on the forums here is because I find it quite bothering that dungeons are seen as more casual content than trials. It’s like trial HMs are fine to be based around the highest performing players but dungeon HMs can’t be because “not everyone’s a good player”— what? (Black Gem was still really good but already people are burning past mechanics— phases are getting skipped on 2nd boss, last annihilation phase getting skipped on last boss, skipping the “hide on the color” mechanic, and ignoring the adds that spawn the purple aoes on death.)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Because of the glaring omission of Dungeons, we even had a "we're not getting new dungeons?" thread go up, and there are a non-insignificant number of people coming in with a "good, this game should be solo only!" vibe. Understandably, that sounds a little toxic from soloists to Dungeoners. So let's not pretend that there is only toxicity from the group players; you're only seeing the thread right now that's toxic in one direction and not in the other.

This is really important and something I admittedly forgot about.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I suggest checking out UESP's guild (yes, based on the unofficial wiki that Todd actually keeps a personal backup of because they actually do reference it) or the Loreseekers (who, as the name implies, are interested in the lore of the game and getting stories) and joining one of those (they have representation on most platforms). They'll allow you to still play mostly solo, but then be able to do group content in a manner you are interested in.

I think For The Clear (PC/NA) also does chill lore runs. They also do chill trials. (I have not run with them, this is based on their reputation and reading the channel names.) That said, I really hope ZOS improves the group questing experience. I hate questing with other people (in general) simply because they can progress the story while I’m reading, kicking me out of dialogue.

Syldras wrote: »

I wonder whether they would have made new group dungeons if they had not focused on those 2 solo dungeons this year? Or are those solo dungeons not just a small QOL update anyway (I don't know the scope and how different they'll be of course), so they specifically chose to do those since it takes much less development time than a real new dungeon - time/workforce that they just don't have? Or to put short: This might not have been an either/or decision between solo or group dungeons, but perhaps they just add the solo dungeons because they just can't do more than this smaller QOL thing?

This whole year has a big reduction of new content and focuses on small additions, bugfixing, QOL instead, after all. Almost every player "group" gets less new things this year. I feel sorry for the dungeoneers that don't get new dungeons the same I feel sorry for the people who enjoy ToT and didn't get anything new there for 2 years or the people who love companions and also didn't get anything new for the 2nd year now. Story-focused players are lucky they'll get something in summer at least, though the quality and scope are still unknown. But in the end it's a reduction of new content in favor of QOL everywhere.

My coping hope is that ZOS thought we’d like The Night Market and it’d keep us busy while the solo dungeons get worked on… and that future solo dungeons will require less development time once they have the framework down.

I feel the same, we’re all in this together. People who are getting their regular content this year might not next year and vice versa, who knows?

Soarora wrote: »

My coping hope is that ZOS thought we’d like The Night Market and it’d keep us busy while the solo dungeons get worked on… and that future solo dungeons will require less development time once they have the framework down.
I feel the same, we’re all in this together. People who are getting their regular content this year might not next year and vice versa, who knows?

I know not everyone will agree with that, but I also wonder whether they might want to try something new for once. Sure, ESO is a commercial product, but it's also a creative endeavor. So I could understand if they might want to try new things, too, also to gain new inspiration, instead of keeping the same formula every year and adding a new system once in a while. Though of course we could debate whether ESO's in the state for that right now. I'd personally think that after how the past year had been, it's perhaps not the right time for big artistic experimentations.

Then again, it seems they can't keep quantity and quality on par with the earlier chapters anymore anyway, so they need to change something. Whether the new things we get this year will be well-received? We'll see. I wished they had already told us more about that new event in summer, or about the Sages Vault. The actual content would have been much more interesting to learn about than just focusing on how to buy or spend game currency on items.

Yeah, that's a good point about the mix of skill levels. They make clear that all levels are welcome, and I don't know the detail but they attempt to account for that in the scoring. Players with lower numbers of related achievements are given a boost. So that can give incentive for a team leader to draft a player with less experience but who the team lead thinks can learn quickly.

All of that is not something ZOS would probably want to do, since it would be open to disputes. It's different when the contestants are mostly guildies, and there's some familiarity and trust. A straight tournament-style dungeon contest officially sponsored by ZOS would be great.

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Apollosipod wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There seems to be an opinion among some that playing solo is somehow wrong and needs to be corrected. It's not. It's nothing more than a play style that many players enjoy.

Are you trying to imply that we shouldn't ALL want to play alongside someone named xXxblunt_destroyer_666xXx?!

Agreed completely. It keeps coming off like some people are mad some people would prefer to play alone instead of a group. That's fine. Forcing it either way isn't, but solo dungeons isn't going to kill the game anymore than group dungeons have

Solo dungeons will make it even harder to form groups using the group finder.

Group forming with group finder is so hard because there are too many DDs and too few tanks and healers. Solo dungeons will actually make forming groups easier because players playing them would be DDs.
If only 4 players random dungeon queue every minute and matching roles wouldnt be a problem average queue time would be 30s.

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There seems to be an opinion among some that playing solo is somehow wrong and needs to be corrected. It's not. It's nothing more than a play style that many players enjoy.

Nobody has ever made that assertion. Are you projecting here?

The problem is when the casual solo's push to take the MMO part out of the game when ESO was designed to have group content be the end game content and requires grouping to complete.

The problem comes in when people try to change the game into something it was never intended to be. ESO is supposed to be competitive, not a stroll through the countryside listening to stories.

How do we take the MMO part out of the game, when it is still a Massively Multiplayer Online game? Playing solo doesn't change that.

Where does it say ESO is supposed to be competitive? PvP, sure, but just the game in general? No. And why are there stories to listen to scattered all over Tamriel if we aren't supposed to engage with them?

Just because some players enjoy grouping does not mean everyone does or has to. There is a lot to do in this game that doesn't require grouping and being competitive.

They can play their way and we can play ours. No one is WRONG.

It's wrong to advocate for features that will degrade the ability to form groups for group content. All end game content requires grouping, and you're trying to make that harder.

Reading your and your fellow anti solo dungeon activists comments in other discussions it seems like most of you are premade player who dont want to group with randoms anyway. You dont want force players to group to play with them but to drive them out the game as you already told them to play singleplayergame.

There is solo endgame content like mahlstrom and vateshran whil normal dungeons arent endgame.

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

When the toxic casuals get their way there will be no end game community left. Ya'll are shooting yourselves in the foot.

Iriidius wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

ESO is an MMO with group content being the end game activities.

The casual solo crowd just keep lobbying for changes that will make life much harder for those of us who play for the group content.

Solo and story modes discourage grouping, which is the opposite of what ZOS should do if they want to maintain a viable ESO going forward.

And I'm sick and tired of people trying to claim ESO is the latest edition of Elder Scrolls. It's not. ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that produces Elder Scrolls games. ESO is an MMO and grouping is a vital aspect of the game.

ESO already caters almost exclusively to the casual crowd and it's been very detrimental already. Just look at the exodus of players after U35 hit. U35 killed the end game trial community. But the casual solos don't care because it doesn't effect them. Yet the population continues to decline further and further the more ZOS caters to the casual solo players.

Trials and vet dungeons are a blast when they click. But let's be real: the vast majority of ESO players are solo or duo folks, not raid chasers. Reddit polls and threads consistently show 90%+ of content is soloable, and most players stick to overland, quests, or arenas with a buddy—group stuff is a small slice.

The real grouping killer? Hardcore guilds and PUGs kicking anyone under perfect DPS or mechanics.

Newbies and casuals get burned once, then nope out forever—sticking to solo where it's chill. That's why queues feel dead: the pool of potential groupers left awhile back because they were told they were "Bads"....ZOS catering to the solo/duo crowd keeps the 26M player base alive and growing.

More casuals = more funding for your trials. Win-win but honestly there has to be folks actually showing up for them and that has been a issue.

Yeah toxic groups gatekeeping everyone not fitting their expectations are one of the main reasons most ESO players are not playing in groups.
Despite coming from Skyrim I played PvP in Cyrodiil daily for years solo, in PuGs and smallscales but had to stop because solo I get zerged on sight by everyone, PuGs arent available most of the time or get killed immediately and most PvP groups dont let me play with them and the few that do are not online most of the time.

If the whole endgame community leaves when contents becomes soloable than most of them arent playing group content voluntarily for fun because if they want to play as group they wont leave as soon as they have alternative.
And if mainly players who prefer to solo or cant find a group do solo dungeons it wont reduce size of endgame community.

You seem to see everything making soloplay more fun as conspiracy to remove groupplay as if you cant imagine players want solocontent to play it.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I think this has gotten way out of hand ....when people give you a hard time in game for something you said on the forums...that's a bit too much.

So what is the next plan?
Because insulting and threatening me didn't work.

The hilarious thing about this is you guys came up with the term "Toxic Casual" ...and the only toxic people I see are the hard-cores who want to take their ball and go home or flat out Bully people any time they don't get their way

That's concerning that you experienced harassment in-game. I hope you reported them for harassment, no one should be doing that.

Toxic casuals do exist, but like any group of people, it's not all casuals who are toxic. I think toxic casuals are generally the people who are saying things like "I think there's too much of / I don't like your content so they should stop making any more of it and make more of my content instead", coming into discussions only to minimize people's opinions, and demanding to get into endgame without any flexibility on their builds.

eso has always been play your way, people still group for trials, still join guilds & use zone chat for help/etc. all it will do is be more options and ways to play for people who want it, eso isn't dying any time soon, all these upcoming changes look amazing. just hope we get more group dungeons/zones/tot patrons later too.

reazea wrote: »

All end game content is group content.

ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that creates Elder Scrolls games.

Everyone knew this when they originally purchased ESO.

Nope - My endgame is one of two things usually... Doing my houses. Creating another character to try a new Class and Build and playing it again from the start. Has been since day one. I have no interest in Group or PvP, which I assume is what you assume is endgame.

As for Bethesda not being involved with ESO - Every time I start my game there's a great big Bethesda logo before Zenimax Online... Interesting for a studio with no involvement, huh?

reazea wrote: »

All end game content is group content.

High score VH/MA/IA aren't endgame now? Neither are solo trifecta dungeons? What are they then?

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think there's a bigger issue here: we're not getting dungeons this year, but we are getting solo content. Understandably this makes the Dungeons community feel like they're getting shafted.

Sure, there's "group" content coming this year in the form of the Night Market... but even based on what Finn's told us, it's less of an instanced thing, and more of a thing that solo players can still play provided they zerg surf. So even though it's designed for groups, it's still not something that requires grouping.
[/b]

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail (because you will see it soon on PTS), Night Market is a brand new type of zone that started with a group focus. There are activities solo players can do but they will be hard pressed to get to these activities without at least following groups of players around.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

The zone is open but with a smaller player cap and much harder content. We don’t force you to group to enter but to do the content, you will want to.

There's also a trial coming again... but something that a lot of people who don't do high-level group PvE don't understand is that there is surprisingly little overlap between the Dungeons crowd and the Trials crowd. Sure, both do both types of content primarily to get gear, but most people find one fun and the other a slog. A lot of that is because Trials have gotten to the point where their HMs are built around the top 1% of the top 1%, so they require hyperoptimization (and then that requirement bleeds down to the not-as-good-as-they-think-they-are raid leads in standard vets thinking that there is only one way to do the content and mandating setups), while Dungeons don't allow groups to have enough people to get every buff in the game, but that actually means players have more freedom on which characters to bring because there's no need to hyperoptimize there.

We did get an interview from the new leadership where Nick said

It is highly likely that dungeons are going to be in the future, but this year, as we invest more in the core experience of the game, this was one of those trade-offs that we had to make.

And yet even though the team is cutting Dungeons, they're still trying to reassure us that soloists are still getting stories, even if they end up in basegame zones. Furthermore, they're adding the soloist mode to two dungeons, one of which is already soloable easily (the other might need a bit of finessing to get past the interruptables on Mellitus and Mylenne, but it has been soloed). That alone does make it feel like there's an air of "we're not giving you new stuff, and we're even going to change your stuff out from under you over time."

Because of the glaring omission of Dungeons, we even had a "we're not getting new dungeons?" thread go up, and there are a non-insignificant number of people coming in with a "good, this game should be solo only!" vibe. Understandably, that sounds a little toxic from soloists to Dungeoners. So let's not pretend that there is only toxicity from the group players; you're only seeing the thread right now that's toxic in one direction and not in the other.

Is the conversion of dungeons to solo likely to change much? Probably not, since there are enough people who don't like to PuG (I'm one of them; I'm not touching PuGs with a 10 foot pole) that that's not going to change the queue. But the vibes of the reveal trying to downplay group content do make it feel like ESO might be moving toward favoring follow-the-zerg play and hyperoptimized play-as-you-are-forced-to trials, which leaves that middle community out in the dust.

Furthermore, there are a lot of arguments here that are catastrophizing the idea of group content: "if I group, I have to PuG so I can't do the story." Sure, you're not going to get to do the story in a PuG, that's a given. But PuGging is not the only option. For anyone who's interested in the lore, I'd really really suggest joining a guild of people who think and feel the same way you do. I can assure you that there are social guilds out there who do not require Discord (but have it if you would like), and are interested in lore. And that way, you have people around who would be interested in running Dungeons for the story.
I suggest checking out UESP's guild (yes, based on the unofficial wiki that Todd actually keeps a personal backup of because they actually do reference it) or the Loreseekers (who, as the name implies, are interested in the lore of the game and getting stories) and joining one of those (they have representation on most platforms). They'll allow you to still play mostly solo, but then be able to do group content in a manner you are interested in.
I joined the UESP guild a bit after I joined ESO, and it's still my first guild slot. And with them, I've learned how to do the dungeons, and now it's my favorite part of the game. My dungeon group is still people in that guild. Sure, sometimes there's guild chatter that I don't want to see, so I just have a tab to mute the guild chat when I'm in the zone. But it does mean I have people around if I want to do group content or help others with that. I can also say that most of those social guilds will absolutely do lore-runs of any new content (yes, even the trials!) where they stop to listen to all dialogue and call out where all of the lorebooks are so that everyone can experience the content in exactly the way you want.

I will say that there are people out there who want to do the content the same way you do. Heck, look at how many people here are interested in doing the content in a low-stress environment and getting to experience the story. The only thing is you can't expect that to fall into your lap. It does require a bit of reaching out to find that community for you. But they do exist.

So despite being designed for and balanced around groups night marked doesnt count as group content because it isnt instances to exclude players outside of group from joyning? A player following a group without being part of it is actually trying to play with other players and doing his part rather than solo playing the game like Skyrim and most of them would probably accept a group invite if the group invited him. But somehow we blame the zergsurfer for not grouping up although he tries rather than the group for not inviting him although it is them preventing him from grouping. And somehow we also blame all zerging in Cyrodiil on PuGs and zergsurfers as if premades never do.
Actually a zergsurfer playing with everyone is much more sozial than a premade player everyone wants to play with but choosing to play only with a few selected ones(that often he knows from real life or met in the early days of the game).

zombievalen wrote: »

Today, this MMO is special; people play it as "Syrim Online." The community isn't toxic—in fact, it's great—but most are against raids and co-op.
It's incredible that an MMO community celebrates playing dungeons solo when you can play them in any offline game.
I think they should focus on making players need to socialize and cooperate more, and not just instance them alone... that's the essence of every MMO (like WoW, FF, etc.).
If they implement solo dungeons, random dungeons will disappear and the essence of the MMO as well.

You know that most players can solo normal versions of dungeons.....And they can count as solodungeons.... I still like to make them with people ,but if the wait time is there then i go do it alone... Same as delves.... And some of us mostly play alone ))))

There is no one right way to play this game, and everyone has the right to give their feedback on what features should or should not be implemented.

And there should absolutely be rewards given for story mode dungeons. Being solo does not mean it will take no effort to complete, so yes players will earn these rewards.