New damage type for Templar

The_Isatope8 · January 15

On live, Templars kit mostly features Physical and Magic damage, with Sun Fire being the sole exception that deals fire damage. This feels very generic when compared to other classes like DK, Sorc and Warden who heavily feature one damage type in their kits and feel a bit more unique because of it. As such, I believe that a new damage type with an associated status effect can be created for Templar to help them stand out more and better fulfill their class fantasy.

With the new class class reworks being in progress and the devs showing willingness to play around with damage types (removing Poison damage from Dragonknight), I think that now would be the best time to introduce a new damage type for Templar. The devs have also stated that they want to strengthen class identity, so it makes sense to me to lean more into the tropes that inspired Templars design, such a the paladin and cleric archetypes. The damage type I think would fit Templar near perfectly is Radiant Damage.

Radiant damage type
This damage type would be designated as a magical damage type for the purposes of overcoming resistances and have a golden yellow color in the tooltips. Of course, every damage type needs an associated status effect and I think that an apt name for the status effect would be Smite.

Smite status effect

deals 1.64% of your max Stamina or max Magicka + 17.3% of your weapon and spell damage as Radiant Damage.
Increases your direct damage done with light and heavy attack by 10% for 4 seconds.
Grants Minor Force for 4 seconds, increasing Critical Damage done by 10%.

The word 'smite' is defined as follows: "to strike sharply or heavily especially with the hand or an implement held in the hand".
I think, therefore, that it would be fitting to have this status effect increase the damage of light and heavy attacks for a little while along with granting the player Minor force to 'strike sharply'. I also think these changes would benefit Templar by giving them some more up front damage before they start to execute. Templars damage feels very skewed towards the latter end of a fight where they won't be light or heavy attacking as much since they'll likely be channeling The Beam, so having more damage up front without just buffing all their spammable skills feels fair. Having Minor force be a part of applying the status effect might also free up some bar space by not slotting an ability that usually provides it. Since Radiant damage would essentially replace the Magic damage type in Templars kit, this status effect should proc quite often. Maybe their Burning Light passive could have a higher increased chance to proc Smite.

The math for the damage done by the status effect is calculated with the same numbers as the Sundered status effect for those who were wondering.

Similar damage types have existed in previous TES titles (Sun damage in Skyrim) so it might seem strange to not call the damage type 'Sun' damage, especially considering Templars affinity for light. The reason that I named it Radiant damage instead of Sun damage is that all classes need to have access to all damage types even without subclassing. As such, I think that Dawnbreaker and its morphs could also deal Radiant damage. Several entities within the Elder scrolls universe are heavily associated with light and the magic that stems from it. Dawnbreaker states that its power comes from the daedric prince Meridia, while Templar's magic is derived Stendarr and neither have ties to the sun itself which is associated with Magnus. Meridia, Stendarr and Magnus are all very different and so is the way in which they are associated with light. Calling it Radiant damage instead of Sun damage leaves its magical origins ambiguous enough to fit with established lore while still giving all players access to Radiant damage.

I really would like to see something like this implemented or experimented with at the very least, so please tell me what you think. Constructive criticism, alternative viewpoints and different ideas are always appreciated.

MJallday · January 15

if you want to stay true to lore - templars are all about the use of "the light" power for either healing or damage

what we have in eso is beam , power of the light and using etherial skills (jabs and javelin)

however, beam has been nerfed to death
power of the light is ineffectual unless used with 3034 other skills
and jabs- you might as well hit people with a wet pool noodle

all this means templars are probably the lowest of the low when it comes to damage skills right now.

healing - needs another look - breath of life is probably the only viable skill people use - id like to see others come into play.

im very hopeful that templars will finally recieve some love (or at least to be put on a dps level with other classess) - given the years long of neglect.

moderatelyfatman · January 15

I'm wondering but is making one type of damage per class a way of strengthening pure classes?

So if the templar has three skill lines that uses radiant energy for both healing and damage, and the passives in all three templar skill lines contain passives for radiant energy; then this may be better to have all three than to subclass into multiple dps or healing skill lines.

Warden could have nature energy that strengthens both healing, bleed and frost damage passives across all three skill lines. Stamwarden Dps and Healers would then have a reason to keep the ice skill line too.

Orbital78 · January 15

I always wished Templars had more "holy/divine" fire in their arsenal. It isn't outside lore, I wouldn't think.

Gabriel_H · January 15

Orbital78 wrote: »

I always wished Templars had more "holy/divine" fire in their arsenal. It isn't outside lore, I wouldn't think.

Tehnically is is outside the lore. The notion that Templars are holy/divine is an urban myth within the lore itself. Their power comes directly from the Aetherius, and is not tied to any Aedra/God. They simply hjave a natural connection, with training, that draws on the particular magic needed for Templar Magic.

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

Templar's magic is derived Stendarr

It's not. The lore explains why it isn't. Templars do not derive their magic from any Aedra/Daedra/God/Entity. It comes direct from the Aetherius.

Loses nearly all power and any benefit in end-game content.

Soarora · January 15

Radiant damage actually would be pretty cool. My first thought is that it sounds like Oblivion damage but in reverse.

Smite for the status effect feels very D&D paladin, I like it.

AScarlato · January 15

Orbital78 wrote: »

I always wished Templars had more "holy/divine" fire in their arsenal. It isn't outside lore, I wouldn't think.

I'd like this idea. Holy-themed classes (whether it be Paladin, Priest or Divine Sorcerer) are always what I gravitate towards.

Al_Ex_Andre · January 16

MJallday wrote: »

if you want to stay true to lore - templars are all about the use of "the light" power for either healing or damage

what we have in eso is beam , power of the light and using etherial skills (jabs and javelin)

however, beam has been nerfed to death
power of the light is ineffectual unless used with 3034 other skills
and jabs- you might as well hit people with a wet pool noodle

all this means templars are probably the lowest of the low when it comes to damage skills right now.

healing - needs another look - breath of life is probably the only viable skill people use - id like to see others come into play.

im very hopeful that templars will finally recieve some love (or at least to be put on a dps level with other classess) - given the years long of neglect.

Agreeing with that, except the conclusion. I am not very hopeful with templars in this game. Latest was Beam, the last good-to go skill, and it was nerfed without a compensation. And in the past...no let's not talk about the past here.

I think that Templars should deal Magic damage and this will be how they get to use their inner Light, and the same identical skills should deal Fire damage at close range. The sun is fire, also the light still IS fire, if you actually observe the rays.

Do it, have a look, say, in your bedroom, how the rays are. Observe. Sun rays are like a fire DNA helix.

Also Healing being harmless is not very templar fantasy...I would design the Templar as the offensive healer if anything...@I am the happy guy and I do nothing but heal, is not the templar fantasy in my book. (no offense)

wolfie1.0. · January 16

Al_Ex_Andre wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

if you want to stay true to lore - templars are all about the use of "the light" power for either healing or damage

what we have in eso is beam , power of the light and using etherial skills (jabs and javelin)

however, beam has been nerfed to death
power of the light is ineffectual unless used with 3034 other skills
and jabs- you might as well hit people with a wet pool noodle

all this means templars are probably the lowest of the low when it comes to damage skills right now.

healing - needs another look - breath of life is probably the only viable skill people use - id like to see others come into play.

im very hopeful that templars will finally recieve some love (or at least to be put on a dps level with other classess) - given the years long of neglect.

Agreeing with that, except the conclusion. I am not very hopeful with templars in this game. Latest was Beam, the last good-to go skill, and it was nerfed without a compensation. And in the past...no let's not talk about the past here.

I think that Templars should deal Magic damage and this will be how they get to use their inner Light, and the same identical skills should deal Fire damage at close range. The sun is fire, also the light still IS fire, if you actually observe the rays.

Do it, have a look, say, in your bedroom, how the rays are. Observe. Sun rays are like a fire DNA helix.

Also Healing being harmless is not very templar fantasy...I would design the Templar as the offensive healer if anything...@I am the happy guy and I do nothing but heal, is not the templar fantasy in my book. (no offense)

But... thats "the wrong way to use healing magic!"

....

Sorry I couldnt help myself.

Radiate77 · January 16

What I don’t understand, is how we are casually using Aedric Magic as a Templar, yet throughout TES the Aedra are known for being hands off.

Part of what made the ending of Oblivion so special, was that the Aedra intervened.

I would rather see Aedric Spear be converted into a skill line that prioritizes martial ability, over any form of magic.

Dawn’s Wrath could easily be Flame damage themed to Vampire hunting, and Restoring Light makes sense in the framing of Restoration Magic, the only line that feels out of place is unfortunately Aedric Spear.

JacobWasTaken · January 16

MJallday wrote: »

however, beam has been nerfed to death
power of the light is ineffectual unless used with 3034 other skills
and jabs- you might as well hit people with a wet pool noodle

all this means templars are probably the lowest of the low when it comes to damage skills right now.

Plar beam and PotL are some of the hardest hitting abilities in the game currently. At least in trials that favour the Arc/NB/Plar setup, like vAS. The top 3 DPS abilities for that setup is usually Plar beam, Relentless Focus, PotL

Jabs is definitely not as good as the other options though

aspergalas4 · January 16

Perhaps a good counterpart to oblivion damage would be a new type called aetherial damage? which would be a good fit for the templar. Could have it so the two overlap so oblivion/aetherial damage are more or less the same and apply equally? just thematically different.

AScarlato · January 16

Radiate77 wrote: »

What I don’t understand, is how we are casually using Aedric Magic as a Templar, yet throughout TES the Aedra are known for being hands off.

Part of what made the ending of Oblivion so special, was that the Aedra intervened.

I would rather see Aedric Spear be converted into a skill line that prioritizes martial ability, over any form of magic.

Dawn’s Wrath could easily be Flame damage themed to Vampire hunting, and Restoring Light makes sense in the framing of Restoration Magic, the only line that feels out of place is unfortunately Aedric Spear.

I think what some in the world think is that they are actually just channelling another school of magic, not actually being blessed by the Aedra. It's through their fervor and advertising that they are associating it with the Divine. On the wiki they state, "Despite the fact that Templar magic was often referred to as Aedric or divine in nature, it was certain that the ability to use these spells had little, if anything, to do with the faith of the wielder, and just like regular magic, required an appropriate approach and aptitude."

I personally like Aedric spear as far as channelling their devotion through their attacks - in this case forming a Spear since for some odd reason this world doesn't have any blacksmith that makes them. If they wanted to add just a basic Spear as a pure physical weapon I think that should be something else. (And yes I'd like a Spear...)

nightbringer1993 · January 16

I do agree that new damage types could be added. Radiant damage for templar would make very intersting paladin themes. Necros could have necrotic, and new status effects could be created. There is also the oblivion damage that I do not see much often and sorcerers could get more access to such damage.

Soarora · January 16

AScarlato wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What I don’t understand, is how we are casually using Aedric Magic as a Templar, yet throughout TES the Aedra are known for being hands off.

Part of what made the ending of Oblivion so special, was that the Aedra intervened.

I would rather see Aedric Spear be converted into a skill line that prioritizes martial ability, over any form of magic.

Dawn’s Wrath could easily be Flame damage themed to Vampire hunting, and Restoring Light makes sense in the framing of Restoration Magic, the only line that feels out of place is unfortunately Aedric Spear.

I think what some in the world think is that they are actually just channelling another school of magic, not actually being blessed by the Aedra. It's through their fervor and advertising that they are associating it with the Divine. On the wiki they state, "Despite the fact that Templar magic was often referred to as Aedric or divine in nature, it was certain that the ability to use these spells had little, if anything, to do with the faith of the wielder, and just like regular magic, required an appropriate approach and aptitude."

I do think that in terms of schools, templar is just doing restoration magic, which has offensive skills and is typically associated with the divine (like going to a temple to be healed) despite just being another form of magic. But the schools are also all made up anyways. Found out poison rune is in restoration in Skyrim. Who would’ve thunk poison would be considered restoration? Pretty sure it’s in destruction in Blades.

Radiate77 · January 16

Soarora wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What I don’t understand, is how we are casually using Aedric Magic as a Templar, yet throughout TES the Aedra are known for being hands off.

Part of what made the ending of Oblivion so special, was that the Aedra intervened.

I would rather see Aedric Spear be converted into a skill line that prioritizes martial ability, over any form of magic.

Dawn’s Wrath could easily be Flame damage themed to Vampire hunting, and Restoring Light makes sense in the framing of Restoration Magic, the only line that feels out of place is unfortunately Aedric Spear.

I think what some in the world think is that they are actually just channelling another school of magic, not actually being blessed by the Aedra. It's through their fervor and advertising that they are associating it with the Divine. On the wiki they state, "Despite the fact that Templar magic was often referred to as Aedric or divine in nature, it was certain that the ability to use these spells had little, if anything, to do with the faith of the wielder, and just like regular magic, required an appropriate approach and aptitude."

I do think that in terms of schools, templar is just doing restoration magic, which has offensive skills and is typically associated with the divine (like going to a temple to be healed) despite just being another form of magic. But the schools are also all made up anyways. Found out poison rune is in restoration in Skyrim. Who would’ve thunk poison would be considered restoration? Pretty sure it’s in destruction in Blades.

Skyrim did a pretty bad job with magic as a whole, and to be fair it probably wasn’t their biggest focus considering Nords were not biggest fans of it.

Until the ability to “prestige” your skill lines, Destruction. was by far the weakest skill line and the game lacked Spellcrafting, which I always found weird.

The_Isatope8 · January 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

Templar's magic is derived Stendarr

It's not. The lore explains why it isn't. Templars do not derive their magic from any Aedra/Daedra/God/Entity. It comes direct from the Aetherius.

@Gabriel_H, below I have listed all the skill books that can be found in game that increase Templar skills:

Every single one of them mention Stendarr and expand upon the ways in which mortals understand him and his principles. Considering that these books literally level up Templar skills, it can be reasonably be assumed that the text contained within them are important to understanding the nature of Templars and their powers.

In the class identity refresh article, the devs vaguely outlined their new approaches to class fantasy and power source. An excerpt for their envisioned source of power for Templars goes as follows: "Holy warriors who channel the power of the sun and Aedric entities". It is plainly stated by the actual developers that their powers are derived from the Aedra. I know that this is what Templar is planned to be, but theres evidence for this always being the case even before the decision to rework classes was made as Bahtra At-Hunding (The subclassing npc) refers to Templars as "Warriors of Stendarr's Light" when asked about them.

In the book Aura of the Righteous, The following passages can be found: "Stendarr gifted all those who invoke His Name with the ability to clothe themselves in a righteous aura of blessed light", "For offensive means, Stendarr's gift most often manifests as a piercing beam of light, resembling a spear of purifying sunlight and oft referred to in those terms" and "As a form of armor, Stendarr's gift may take the form of a diffuse aura that surrounds the righteous". The phrase 'Stendarr's Gift' is mentioned multiple times throughout the text.

The concept of a Templars abilities being a 'gift' from Stendarr is expanded upon in the books The Friend of All Mortals and Rituals of the Harmonious Masters which contain the following passages respectfully: "Yea, even the heretic Dark Elves of Morrowind may use his magic of defense and healing", "It is for this reason that we of the Sect of Harmonious Masters have dedicated ourselves to adapting the magic of Stendarr's Light". We can conclude from these passages that the kind of magic used by Templars is unquestionably connected to Stendarr.

The Four Abominations contains the following passage: "Thus Stendarr looked upon the world of mortals, and he found it afflicted by Abominations. And he made it known unto his priests, resolutes, and templars, that these unnatural profanities are abhorrent in his sight". This piece of text clearly states that Stendarr has Templars that carry out his will in the world.

While the assertation that Templars magic comes from Aetherius is partially correct, it does not consider the specific way in which this power is harnessed. Aetherius is the source of all Magicka in mundus, but magicka is only the fuel that is used to manifest a Templars abilities, the same way that magicka is the fuel for abilities used by a nightblade or a necromancer.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

I always wished Templars had more "holy/divine" fire in their arsenal. It isn't outside lore, I wouldn't think.

Tehnically is is outside the lore. The notion that Templars are holy/divine is an urban myth within the lore itself. Their power comes directly from the Aetherius, and is not tied to any Aedra/God. They simply hjave a natural connection, with training, that draws on the particular magic needed for Templar Magic.

The notion that not all those who use Stendarr's gift are inherently righteous or holy is indeed somewhat correct as Stendarr provides all mortals the ability to use his magic; as can be seen in this passage from the book Rituals of the Harmonious Masters: "As Stendarr, in his boundless mercy, has given all mortals the potential ability to employ his magical gifts". This does not mean, however that anyone who uses those gifts can be considered to be a Templar, as that title seems to belong exclusively to those devoted to Stendarr and his ideals. The only exception to this rule I know of is Lord Wardens Templar in the Imperial City Prison dungeon, but this is likely meant to be a mockery of real Templars considering that Molag Bal is known for taking a strange kind of joy in mocking the Aedra and corrupting their devotees.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Loses nearly all power and any benefit in end-game content.

Its not just about a mechanical change, its about having Templar embody their class fantasy better. Here are some excerpts from the books mentioned at the beginning of this comment as well as a quote from Bahtra at-Hunding:

"Smiting all that is unholy, Transfixing it with point and glow" - Stendarr's Divine Spear
"Priests and Resolutes of Stendarr have adapted Stendarr's glowing gift to many purposes, whether to smite, to defend, or to heal" - Aura of the Righteous
"Templars coalesce their mystical might into a weapon called an Aedric Spear, and smite their enemies by gathering and unleashing a power called Dawn's Wrath." - Bahtra at-Hunding

The texts themselves state that Templars are capable of smiting their enemies, it feels thematically appropriate to have such a thing be a part of their kit even if it doesn't make Templar that much stronger.

Gabriel_H · January 17

Yeah, you are quoting the books in the game, which as I said - in the lore itself is the urban myth that Templar power comes from Stendarr. It doesn't. The lore states that it doesn't. The lore states it's a misconception.

As to the final point. Irrespective of what the lore is, the change you propose loses all power at end-game. It doesn't benefit Templars there and becomes irrelevent. Class identity should be something that runs the gamute from casual to hardcore.