TunnelMaster wrote: »

Lastly, from a completely game mechanic-driven perspective, flame DoT from the burning status (last time I checked, anyway) still scaled to the player's max magicka and spell damage. Of course weapon and spell damage have virtually been the same for years and perhaps max magicka isn't a huge part of the equation, but it still seems to me that for the min-maxy players, removing the DK's poison morphs will make stamina-based DKs less desirable with the new update. (Unless the burning status effect is changed as well, of course.)

Those were the old rules until maybe 4 or 5 years ago. But damage now scales from highest stats. A player with 40K stamina and 10K magicka will have flame attacks that hit identical to a player with 40K magicka and 10K stamina. And a player with 40K magicka and 10K stamina will have poison attacks that hit identical to a player with 40K stamina and 10K magicka.

This is a good change because there is really no need for classes to have two different damage types to cater to magicka builds versus stamina builds. Each class can have a dominant damage type, giving them a more distinct and unique look and feel compared to other classes, and making it easier to theorycraft and build your "pure class" around that damage type.

TunnelMaster wrote: »

Some of the changes described for dragon knights in the next update sound good, even exciting. New sounds and visual effects will certainly be nice and a guildie on the PTS shared that they had better sustain and that combat as a DK "felt satisfying." (Some of the skill name changes seem kinda silly, though.) But at the risk of being just another change-averse player, I don't understand the rationale given for ditching poison attacks.

From the writeup, it was stated that poison damage is being removed, "to better focus on the core fantasy of the Dragonknight, where many affixes didn’t work, synergize, or coherently mesh with Poison across the entire kit... rather than being tacked on." I skimmed some of ESO's lorebooks about DKs to glean what "core fantasy" the description referred to. (Dragon knights were not one of the prefab classes one could select in any of the classic ES games, after all.) It is true that none of the lorebooks talked about poison, but given that the background for DKs seems to be a martial tradition developed by Akaviri warriors in order to effectively battle dragons - perhaps derived from dragons themselves - it is completely plausible to me that they could have poison-based attacks in their arsenal. Indeed, nothing in the lore seems to talk about why DKs should have elemental earth attacks at all, so if anything has been "tacked on," it would seem to be that.

To be clear: I do not have an issue with the earth elemental aspect of DKs, either. However, if making a cohesive, lore-based class is truly a priority for the powers-that-be, they really shouldn't overlook that elephant in the room.

As for the second portion of that quotation, "where many affixes didn’t work, synergize," etc., well... I know what each individual word means, but when strung together in that order, they mean nothing to me. Perhaps someone can translate it for me; otherwise, I guess I'd have to be given an example.

Lastly, from a completely game mechanic-driven perspective, flame DoT from the burning status (last time I checked, anyway) still scaled to the player's max magicka and spell damage. Of course weapon and spell damage have virtually been the same for years and perhaps max magicka isn't a huge part of the equation, but it still seems to me that for the min-maxy players, removing the DK's poison morphs will make stamina-based DKs less desirable with the new update. (Unless the burning status effect is changed as well, of course.)

Hello OP,

Originally, I posted something similar concerning the poison damage abilities not being inclusive in this version of the DK.

Over time, I also learned to appreciate having a choice between using poison and fire abilities. And having the choice between the two quite frankly made the DK class more interesting, it also provided a broad range of synergy with other skills and sets as well. Some of the strongest abilities in the DK 'toolkit' were poison damage. Combining Poison with Fire made sense, especially from the 'earthy' 'volcanic' 'eastern' traits the class was pulling from, which was something else I liked.

This is probably one thing I both understand but am not fond of the devs doing from time to time. You get customed to something, you learn why you like it and then they change it. Which I'm not against change as my builds and setups on this end have changed dramatically over time... wait no that's not right. See, there is a world of difference between changing something and something evolving; Improvement over time yet staying true to what it is. And this is the problem I have with this version of the DK; no evolution happened here to bring forth a stronger vessel; it was just replaced from what vision? The skill names... are troublesome for that reason.

When these changes were pushed thru, virtually no one defended the things I liked about the DK, as it were. But the problem is, they're not just making improvements, they're taking things away. Now let that realization sink in. You know I can see so many hands being waved and energy brought to bare trying to 'save' that corrupt HoT madness in Cyrodiil and I can only imagine the fury and the hordes of defenders that will throw themselves at any changes for the Mag Sorc or Assassin Skills or the Warden. But no one cared about my DK. And I absolutely hate having to just eat something like this and have no say in the changes whatsoever.

Especially for as long as I've manned a DK, I have to just accept silence and all the streamers and authorities just going along with it. I'm not encouraging any problems, and I know it's ZOS Class to change. But I think having a Class with fire alone is really wasting the potential that used to be there and I'm very disappointed at how I have to jump over the cliff with everyone else just to have a chance at being heard for having a different opinion. I really think it was better to have a choice between poison and fire, stam and mag. It made sense doing things this way and in a way I'm glad I only made one DK. But in this state the class is in now it's no longer my main character.

It's basically the equivalent of a Paladin now, which is not the end of the world but no longer feels like an Akaviri/Tsaesi DragonKnight from lore. Not the end of the world, but really seems kind of rush and offers less than the original DK. I think they should just go ahead and rename it to Paladin Knight Class. A PK if u will.

It's good to know that the DoT from status effects was changed along with everything else pertaining to highest offensive stats, whenever that change took place; I guess this line on UESP (and my awareness!) hasn't caught up with the times. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat#Burning

I *guess* I can understand the desire to make different classes built around one damage type. At the same time, I like being able to (for example) set things on fire with my templar using Reflective Light - particularly if I'm already inside the Inscrutable Archive and get one or two stacks of Focused Efforts. In another year and a half, would I need to subclass into DK with him to have the option of burning things, or else equip an inferno staff and grab something from that skill line? I don't know the answer to this new class identity problem, but I'm not convinced that reshuffling all of the damage types is it.

But mostly, I am just unconvinced by the lore argument for the various DK changes, and from the sound of their post, I'm guessing Vulkunne isn't, either!

Vulkunne wrote: »

TunnelMaster wrote: »

Some of the changes described for dragon knights in the next update sound good, even exciting. New sounds and visual effects will certainly be nice and a guildie on the PTS shared that they had better sustain and that combat as a DK "felt satisfying." (Some of the skill name changes seem kinda silly, though.) But at the risk of being just another change-averse player, I don't understand the rationale given for ditching poison attacks.

From the writeup, it was stated that poison damage is being removed, "to better focus on the core fantasy of the Dragonknight, where many affixes didn’t work, synergize, or coherently mesh with Poison across the entire kit... rather than being tacked on." I skimmed some of ESO's lorebooks about DKs to glean what "core fantasy" the description referred to. (Dragon knights were not one of the prefab classes one could select in any of the classic ES games, after all.) It is true that none of the lorebooks talked about poison, but given that the background for DKs seems to be a martial tradition developed by Akaviri warriors in order to effectively battle dragons - perhaps derived from dragons themselves - it is completely plausible to me that they could have poison-based attacks in their arsenal. Indeed, nothing in the lore seems to talk about why DKs should have elemental earth attacks at all, so if anything has been "tacked on," it would seem to be that.

To be clear: I do not have an issue with the earth elemental aspect of DKs, either. However, if making a cohesive, lore-based class is truly a priority for the powers-that-be, they really shouldn't overlook that elephant in the room.

As for the second portion of that quotation, "where many affixes didn’t work, synergize," etc., well... I know what each individual word means, but when strung together in that order, they mean nothing to me. Perhaps someone can translate it for me; otherwise, I guess I'd have to be given an example.

Lastly, from a completely game mechanic-driven perspective, flame DoT from the burning status (last time I checked, anyway) still scaled to the player's max magicka and spell damage. Of course weapon and spell damage have virtually been the same for years and perhaps max magicka isn't a huge part of the equation, but it still seems to me that for the min-maxy players, removing the DK's poison morphs will make stamina-based DKs less desirable with the new update. (Unless the burning status effect is changed as well, of course.)

Hello OP,

Originally, I posted something similar concerning the poison damage abilities not being inclusive in this version of the DK.

Over time, I also learned to appreciate having a choice between using poison and fire abilities. And having the choice between the two quite frankly made the DK class more interesting, it also provided a broad range of synergy with other skills and sets as well. Some of the strongest abilities in the DK 'toolkit' were poison damage. Combining Poison with Fire made sense, especially from the 'earthy' 'volcanic' 'eastern' traits the class was pulling from, which was something else I liked.

This is probably one thing I both understand but am not fond of the devs doing from time to time. You get customed to something, you learn why you like it and then they change it. Which I'm not against change as my builds and setups on this end have changed dramatically over time... wait no that's not right. See, there is a world of difference between changing something and something evolving; Improvement over time yet staying true to what it is. And this is the problem I have with this version of the DK; no evolution happened here to bring forth a stronger vessel; it was just replaced from what vision? The skill names... are troublesome for that reason.

When these changes were pushed thru, virtually no one defended the things I liked about the DK, as it were. But the problem is, they're not just making improvements, they're taking things away. Now let that realization sink in. You know I can see so many hands being waved and energy brought to bare trying to 'save' that corrupt HoT madness in Cyrodiil and I can only imagine the fury and the hordes of defenders that will throw themselves at any changes for the Mag Sorc or Assassin Skills or the Warden. But no one cared about my DK. And I absolutely hate having to just eat something like this and have no say in the changes whatsoever.

Especially for as long as I've manned a DK, I have to just accept silence and all the streamers and authorities just going along with it. I'm not encouraging any problems, and I know it's ZOS Class to change. But I think having a Class with fire alone is really wasting the potential that used to be there and I'm very disappointed at how I have to jump over the cliff with everyone else just to have a chance at being heard for having a different opinion. I really think it was better to have a choice between poison and fire, stam and mag. It made sense doing things this way and in a way I'm glad I only made one DK. But in this state the class is in now it's no longer my main character.

It's basically the equivalent of a Paladin now, which is not the end of the world but no longer feels like an Akaviri/Tsaesi DragonKnight from lore. Not the end of the world, but really seems kind of rush and offers less than the original DK. I think they should just go ahead and rename it to Paladin Knight Class. A PK if u will.

I wish I could put Agree and Awesome at the same time, because these are exactly my thoughts.

Taking poison morphs away and offering nothing in return is a crude and ill-thought-out decision, and it disturbs me to see a class "refresh" starting out like this.

I always saw DK as nasty dragon-kind people, so to me, poison is in. Whatever floats the boat of the devs, though.

JimT722 wrote: »

Dragonknight originally didn't have poison. class skills didn't scale with stamina so they did a pass on class skills making some morphs stamina based. the only reason they made them poison is because it is a stamina scaling damage type. that no longer matters.

I think it's a good change that does fit the original design of the class better.

Of course it still matters. It matters because ESO is an RPG and our character fantasies matter, and it matters because of the logical consistency of the world.

People didn't just want stamina morphs and playstyles because they happened to spec into stamina and were too cheap for a respec, it's because their fantasy of a warrior/archer/knight/etc type of character wasn't met with all classes just using magic. The new DK only using a magical element, fire, is a terrible regression for player fantasies.

It also matters because fire or magical element skills in general shouldn't cost stamina, and vice versa. That has been the rule, it is consistent with the logic of the game world, where our characters derive their power from and how they can use it.

iyx wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

TunnelMaster wrote: »

Some of the changes described for dragon knights in the next update sound good, even exciting. New sounds and visual effects will certainly be nice and a guildie on the PTS shared that they had better sustain and that combat as a DK "felt satisfying." (Some of the skill name changes seem kinda silly, though.) But at the risk of being just another change-averse player, I don't understand the rationale given for ditching poison attacks.

From the writeup, it was stated that poison damage is being removed, "to better focus on the core fantasy of the Dragonknight, where many affixes didn’t work, synergize, or coherently mesh with Poison across the entire kit... rather than being tacked on." I skimmed some of ESO's lorebooks about DKs to glean what "core fantasy" the description referred to. (Dragon knights were not one of the prefab classes one could select in any of the classic ES games, after all.) It is true that none of the lorebooks talked about poison, but given that the background for DKs seems to be a martial tradition developed by Akaviri warriors in order to effectively battle dragons - perhaps derived from dragons themselves - it is completely plausible to me that they could have poison-based attacks in their arsenal. Indeed, nothing in the lore seems to talk about why DKs should have elemental earth attacks at all, so if anything has been "tacked on," it would seem to be that.

To be clear: I do not have an issue with the earth elemental aspect of DKs, either. However, if making a cohesive, lore-based class is truly a priority for the powers-that-be, they really shouldn't overlook that elephant in the room.

As for the second portion of that quotation, "where many affixes didn’t work, synergize," etc., well... I know what each individual word means, but when strung together in that order, they mean nothing to me. Perhaps someone can translate it for me; otherwise, I guess I'd have to be given an example.

Lastly, from a completely game mechanic-driven perspective, flame DoT from the burning status (last time I checked, anyway) still scaled to the player's max magicka and spell damage. Of course weapon and spell damage have virtually been the same for years and perhaps max magicka isn't a huge part of the equation, but it still seems to me that for the min-maxy players, removing the DK's poison morphs will make stamina-based DKs less desirable with the new update. (Unless the burning status effect is changed as well, of course.)

Hello OP,

Originally, I posted something similar concerning the poison damage abilities not being inclusive in this version of the DK.

Over time, I also learned to appreciate having a choice between using poison and fire abilities. And having the choice between the two quite frankly made the DK class more interesting, it also provided a broad range of synergy with other skills and sets as well. Some of the strongest abilities in the DK 'toolkit' were poison damage. Combining Poison with Fire made sense, especially from the 'earthy' 'volcanic' 'eastern' traits the class was pulling from, which was something else I liked.

This is probably one thing I both understand but am not fond of the devs doing from time to time. You get customed to something, you learn why you like it and then they change it. Which I'm not against change as my builds and setups on this end have changed dramatically over time... wait no that's not right. See, there is a world of difference between changing something and something evolving; Improvement over time yet staying true to what it is. And this is the problem I have with this version of the DK; no evolution happened here to bring forth a stronger vessel; it was just replaced from what vision? The skill names... are troublesome for that reason.

When these changes were pushed thru, virtually no one defended the things I liked about the DK, as it were. But the problem is, they're not just making improvements, they're taking things away. Now let that realization sink in. You know I can see so many hands being waved and energy brought to bare trying to 'save' that corrupt HoT madness in Cyrodiil and I can only imagine the fury and the hordes of defenders that will throw themselves at any changes for the Mag Sorc or Assassin Skills or the Warden. But no one cared about my DK. And I absolutely hate having to just eat something like this and have no say in the changes whatsoever.

Especially for as long as I've manned a DK, I have to just accept silence and all the streamers and authorities just going along with it. I'm not encouraging any problems, and I know it's ZOS Class to change. But I think having a Class with fire alone is really wasting the potential that used to be there and I'm very disappointed at how I have to jump over the cliff with everyone else just to have a chance at being heard for having a different opinion. I really think it was better to have a choice between poison and fire, stam and mag. It made sense doing things this way and in a way I'm glad I only made one DK. But in this state the class is in now it's no longer my main character.

It's basically the equivalent of a Paladin now, which is not the end of the world but no longer feels like an Akaviri/Tsaesi DragonKnight from lore. Not the end of the world, but really seems kind of rush and offers less than the original DK. I think they should just go ahead and rename it to Paladin Knight Class. A PK if u will.

I wish I could put Agree and Awesome at the same time, because these are exactly my thoughts.

Taking poison morphs away and offering nothing in return is a crude and ill-thought-out decision, and it disturbs me to see a class "refresh" starting out like this.

Same thoughts here. I gave an awesome cos that pretty much says i agree with OP 200%.
These are sad times...my eso is not evolving but changing into something unrecognisable and it worries me. Ive been playing eso since early release with just a few short breaks over the years so i can proudly say im a long term vet subscriber but lately im not sure how long i can hang in there. Changing our characters/classes to the extent that we start to lose our connection with them is sacriligious to say the very least.
Microsoft bought a dress and are now trying to turn it into a pair of trousers. I dont get their mentality. They were better off creating their own new game from scratch instead of breaking eso seriously. Im just getting tired of all this. Ive tried my best to adjust and be positive to the changes over the last few years but im losing hope. Maybe im growing old and eso is growing younger and we just dont gel anymore. They are trying to appeal to a future audience nit keep their vet fans i guess.

JimT722 wrote: »

i've played since the beginning. the dragonknight had no poison abilities. the game had dramatically changed since release just after one year. this is of the best reworks they've done imo.

this really doesn't seem like it's being talked about much anywhere so I don't think it's really a point most people care about. if you do though definitely let them know.

There have been a number of players disappointed that they are essentially "losing" the poison themed DKs that they have built up.

iyx wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

TunnelMaster wrote: »

Some of the changes described for dragon knights in the next update sound good, even exciting. New sounds and visual effects will certainly be nice and a guildie on the PTS shared that they had better sustain and that combat as a DK "felt satisfying." (Some of the skill name changes seem kinda silly, though.) But at the risk of being just another change-averse player, I don't understand the rationale given for ditching poison attacks.

From the writeup, it was stated that poison damage is being removed, "to better focus on the core fantasy of the Dragonknight, where many affixes didn’t work, synergize, or coherently mesh with Poison across the entire kit... rather than being tacked on." I skimmed some of ESO's lorebooks about DKs to glean what "core fantasy" the description referred to. (Dragon knights were not one of the prefab classes one could select in any of the classic ES games, after all.) It is true that none of the lorebooks talked about poison, but given that the background for DKs seems to be a martial tradition developed by Akaviri warriors in order to effectively battle dragons - perhaps derived from dragons themselves - it is completely plausible to me that they could have poison-based attacks in their arsenal. Indeed, nothing in the lore seems to talk about why DKs should have elemental earth attacks at all, so if anything has been "tacked on," it would seem to be that.

To be clear: I do not have an issue with the earth elemental aspect of DKs, either. However, if making a cohesive, lore-based class is truly a priority for the powers-that-be, they really shouldn't overlook that elephant in the room.

As for the second portion of that quotation, "where many affixes didn’t work, synergize," etc., well... I know what each individual word means, but when strung together in that order, they mean nothing to me. Perhaps someone can translate it for me; otherwise, I guess I'd have to be given an example.

Lastly, from a completely game mechanic-driven perspective, flame DoT from the burning status (last time I checked, anyway) still scaled to the player's max magicka and spell damage. Of course weapon and spell damage have virtually been the same for years and perhaps max magicka isn't a huge part of the equation, but it still seems to me that for the min-maxy players, removing the DK's poison morphs will make stamina-based DKs less desirable with the new update. (Unless the burning status effect is changed as well, of course.)

Hello OP,

Originally, I posted something similar concerning the poison damage abilities not being inclusive in this version of the DK.

Over time, I also learned to appreciate having a choice between using poison and fire abilities. And having the choice between the two quite frankly made the DK class more interesting, it also provided a broad range of synergy with other skills and sets as well. Some of the strongest abilities in the DK 'toolkit' were poison damage. Combining Poison with Fire made sense, especially from the 'earthy' 'volcanic' 'eastern' traits the class was pulling from, which was something else I liked.

This is probably one thing I both understand but am not fond of the devs doing from time to time. You get customed to something, you learn why you like it and then they change it. Which I'm not against change as my builds and setups on this end have changed dramatically over time... wait no that's not right. See, there is a world of difference between changing something and something evolving; Improvement over time yet staying true to what it is. And this is the problem I have with this version of the DK; no evolution happened here to bring forth a stronger vessel; it was just replaced from what vision? The skill names... are troublesome for that reason.

When these changes were pushed thru, virtually no one defended the things I liked about the DK, as it were. But the problem is, they're not just making improvements, they're taking things away. Now let that realization sink in. You know I can see so many hands being waved and energy brought to bare trying to 'save' that corrupt HoT madness in Cyrodiil and I can only imagine the fury and the hordes of defenders that will throw themselves at any changes for the Mag Sorc or Assassin Skills or the Warden. But no one cared about my DK. And I absolutely hate having to just eat something like this and have no say in the changes whatsoever.

Especially for as long as I've manned a DK, I have to just accept silence and all the streamers and authorities just going along with it. I'm not encouraging any problems, and I know it's ZOS Class to change. But I think having a Class with fire alone is really wasting the potential that used to be there and I'm very disappointed at how I have to jump over the cliff with everyone else just to have a chance at being heard for having a different opinion. I really think it was better to have a choice between poison and fire, stam and mag. It made sense doing things this way and in a way I'm glad I only made one DK. But in this state the class is in now it's no longer my main character.

It's basically the equivalent of a Paladin now, which is not the end of the world but no longer feels like an Akaviri/Tsaesi DragonKnight from lore. Not the end of the world, but really seems kind of rush and offers less than the original DK. I think they should just go ahead and rename it to Paladin Knight Class. A PK if u will.

I wish I could put Agree and Awesome at the same time, because these are exactly my thoughts.

Taking poison morphs away and offering nothing in return is a crude and ill-thought-out decision, and it disturbs me to see a class "refresh" starting out like this.

I dont agree with it offering nothing in return, build consistency is a big deal, and in pvp especially, fire damage is superior due to the presence of so many vampires. Werewolves are the only time that's more valuable and they haven't been a meta thing in a long time. That might change of course with these new changes, but vampirism will still be far more common with a weakness to fire.

Aside from that the sets that involve burn damage and status effect benefits of applying burn damage have been increased and are now much more available to you whether you play mag or stam or more mix of both. The only thing we really lost was regular use of Witch Knight as a set really. They could've just made that passive include poison or burning status effects of course, but now we can really lean in on one damage type for builds, it simplifies things and gives dk a huge advantage on the many meta builds that still use vampirism. That is greater damage and sustain with the same passive that was changed.

There's also the whole class identity thing but thats clearly more a matter of personal preference and how you view the dragon knight. Tsaesci magics and tonal architecture abilities were never fleshed out but I assume its the whole snake venom thing you're referring to. Their abilities are supposed to model dragons though which are much more well known for fire.

The idea of that and fire mages is much more tes friendly imo. Again personal preference.

JimT722 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

i've played since the beginning. the dragonknight had no poison abilities. the game had dramatically changed since release just after one year. this is of the best reworks they've done imo.

this really doesn't seem like it's being talked about much anywhere so I don't think it's really a point most people care about. if you do though definitely let them know.

There have been a number of players disappointed that they are essentially "losing" the poison themed DKs that they have built up.

not really. go look. There are couple of threads on reddit. the number one comment is why isn't nightblade poison. do with that what you will.

Yes really - go look here on these very forums. One question that players have had is what they are going to do with their DK that they have built around the theme of poison damage. I read one players passage which suggested they may even delete their character now.

What is the purpose of diminishing the experience of such players?

JimT722 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

i've played since the beginning. the dragonknight had no poison abilities. the game had dramatically changed since release just after one year. this is of the best reworks they've done imo.

this really doesn't seem like it's being talked about much anywhere so I don't think it's really a point most people care about. if you do though definitely let them know.

There have been a number of players disappointed that they are essentially "losing" the poison themed DKs that they have built up.

not really. go look. There are couple of threads on reddit. the number one comment is why isn't nightblade poison. do with that what you will.

Yes really - go look here on these very forums. One question that players have had is what they are going to do with their DK that they have built around the theme of poison damage. I read one players passage which suggested they may even delete their character now.

What is the purpose of diminishing the experience of such players?

I didn't say none. very few. so little of the feedback, positive or negative, is about poison. it isn't being talked about much anywhere.

all change is going to effect people. there are people looking forward to the change. there are people who aren't. I'd say among the very few people who care it's split. you can't please everyone

Where did you write "very few?" Am I missing something?

this really doesn't seem like it's being talked about much anywhere so I don't think it's really a point most people care about. if you do though definitely let them know.

When I wrote that a number of players have been disappointed by the poison change, you wrote,

not really

You are definitely right in pointing out that not everyone can be pleased, but since the changes are all about the DK identity, it's strange for the changes to be marginalizing players who have used the poison DK identity such that it's a core part of the role play.

My personal opinion is that it is generally unwise to make sweeping changes to how things have been for long amounts of time. I've seen these types of changes extensively during my time playing games and it's hard to say that such changes will boost game revenue, boost game interest in a lasting way, or actually change the ways of playing for the better.

Those outcomes are possible, but are not givens. That's where I go back to the idea of marginalization. If good result are not a strong guarantee that stem from large changes, then it's better to not isolate and fundamentally change parts of the game which have their fan bases.

While their haven't been a ton of criticisms about the poison change, I think that a reasonable number of people are impacted and it's important to think about their experience. It's unfair to nobody if DK keeps a poison theme. It is unfair in an extreme way to people who have emotionally invested in that play style.

And the same could be said for a number of the changes. There are some interesting ones. If they were not enacted though, it's not clear how the game would be damaged. If they are enacted, it is very clear who various play styles, use cases, and niches are wiped away without a way of knowing what the benefit will be. There isn't a way to know a push toward pure-classing can be successful due to such changes. There isn't a way to know if the push toward pure-classing will be continued for the years that it is planned. There isn't a way to know how many sub-classing enjoyers will be impacted in less good ways too.

This all amounts to numerous uncertainties during a time that is tumultuous for the studio and maybe even gaming in general. I wouldn't be rocking the boat in this scenario if I were a designer. I'd want to be careful with how I treat my invested players!

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I dont agree with it offering nothing in return, build consistency is a big deal, and in pvp especially, fire damage is superior due to the presence of so many vampires. Werewolves are the only time that's more valuable and they haven't been a meta thing in a long time. That might change of course with these new changes, but vampirism will still be far more common with a weakness to fire.

Aside from that the sets that involve burn damage and status effect benefits of applying burn damage have been increased and are now much more available to you whether you play mag or stam or more mix of both. The only thing we really lost was regular use of Witch Knight as a set really. They could've just made that passive include poison or burning status effects of course, but now we can really lean in on one damage type for builds, it simplifies things and gives dk a huge advantage on the many meta builds that still use vampirism. That is greater damage and sustain with the same passive that was changed.

There's also the whole class identity thing but thats clearly more a matter of personal preference and how you view the dragon knight. Tsaesci magics and tonal architecture abilities were never fleshed out but I assume its the whole snake venom thing you're referring to. Their abilities are supposed to model dragons though which are much more well known for fire.

The idea of that and fire mages is much more tes friendly imo. Again personal preference.

I completely agree with you regarding the consistency of the mechanics and gear synergy. My complaints stem from the reduction in rp opportunities. I guess I'm too used to matching the class to the character, not the character to the class.

Now I'll have to come up with a roleplaying reason why my venomous Argonian DK lost his poison. The Hist can be cruel to their children I guess.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

the classes need reworks

Really? The classes have seemed fine up to now. Also, reworks or even change in general doesn't necessarily mean a need to delete long term functionality.

it isn't deleting anything. Just changing poison to fire. restoring the fire, dragon, earth theme and getting rid of the tacked on green fire.

nightblade will probably get poison.

and the classes are fine to you. a lot of people aren't happy with the current balance of everything.

Didn't read every post. Just to point a few things out:

- removing a playstyle and build option entirely without anything in return should be a huge no go for any change. nerfing, nudging etc is all fine but simply taking away is hard to accept

- saying things like "going all in on flame damage makes it easier to build" - you could do that before. taking away options simply means dumbing things down. you are removing an integral part of the class fantasy. also it severly limits build options, especially with how integral status effects are nowadays.

- probably all classes will be stripped down to only one element: how is that a good thing? Before I could have a DK as fire AND/ OR poison, Sorc as Lightning AND/ OR physical etc., which lead to a whole lot more variety I could lean into. Now I'm simply more limited than before with nothing in return. Also, how long will that take till the refresh is done? Will NB even become the posion class? In 2 Years from now?

- "dk didn't start out with poison, it was tacked on later" - so was hurricane for sorcs, which was changed in may 2016, years after release. yet it's an integral part of the class and no one would think it's a good idea to just remove it.

As it stands, I can shelf my Poison DK and my subclassed poison rat king Warden/DK now. Good job evolving this game away from a singular way to play/meta. /s even if it wasn't end game material, it still was a nice way to play the game.

Poison could also go on Wardens since it's a nature-based damage type and they already do things like summon fungus and stinging swarms. Plants and animals are how most people get poisoned naturally.

I know assassins in fantasy also use poison but the nightblade seems like it has a different magical focus with shadow.

I do understand the loss of the Green Poison Dragon fantasy though for those that liked it.